Bobby Davidson ( likes cutouts….representations… is not too hard to figure out what this Parson’s School of Design student is trying to say with the above created cardboard cutouts image….it pretty much says it all in our current landscape of everyone taking pictures of everything….does this symbolize the end of photography as we know it (or should i say knew it)??

not on your life…if young photographers do not see today/now/ this moment as offering them more than any previous generation’s wildest dreams, then they should just go back to bed….every generation has to re-invent something…whatever my generation had, they pretty much built themselves…it only looks now like perhaps it was handed to them, but alas life just ain’t like that…sure there are problems now and yes there were problems then…different problems,  but things needed to be revolutionized, changed, modified, re-worked, then as what is new??…

most problematic today is simply figuring out how to finance our passion….but, this will be done, this will be done….the smart ones, the positive thinkers, the doers, will figure it out…they already are….personally, i am so so pleased to just be able to lend a small helping hand to the next generation…what could be more worthy in life than the passing on of knowledge to the next in line??….leads to the big warm all around….give it away is what i say…please do it the first chance you get…this time may come sooner than you think….

Burn is almost one year old…a lot has happened since our original powwow in my loft just before Christmas last year….go back and search for the photos taken at the time….read what we were thinking…how we came up with our name, who said what to whom,  who took the lead, who gave the time , and who created this organism…who is the who? you is the who that’s who…

right now our repository of distributable content from Burn contributors would rival potential output of most medium sized agencies….young photographers have clearly chosen Burn as one of THE places they want to be published along with MediaStorm, 100 Eyes, NYT Lens blog, Aperture, Foto8 , PDN, Digital Journalist, etc etc…today’s online photo world is no longer a zero sum game….instead of competition it is co-opetition….like minded peer groups often supporting the other…an umbrella under which well meaning serious communicators in the arts and journalism can co-exist and thrive…it is about trust…it is about authenticity….this affirmation from the young generation gives me only one thing…a sense of responsibility….dammit, i have dug myself into a hole…i cannot quit now!

in the last few weeks i have been working to establish relationships with the established giants of the media as well as keeping things operating with stealth….for it will be stealth that will save us…the giants do not have stealth, but they know it when they see it….they may be welcoming partners after all….not necessarily out of altruism, but out of a combo of a sense of the right thing and practical production costs….we are in the right place at the right time , the right connections , the right content, and the ability to produce on demand…  a bridge to the future…..beyond those types of relationships, i have also now a grant writing team in place as well as other funding possibilities soon to be announced so that photographers published here receive a fee and commissioned work is well funded…both for the emerging and the established photographers…obviously my goal is to make the emerging, the established…and the established, keepers of the flame…

i may be asking a lot of you, but i surely plan to pay you back..with an on demand print magazine by the end of the year, with a possible Burn book imprint,  alternative gallery shows, $15k grant, international seminars, and with cold beer in my refrig for any of you who stop by…who doesn’t know that??

the other morning at 3am, i woke up out of a deep sleep and was wide awake instantly…sometimes, maybe always, my ideas come to me at the weirdest times and for no apparent reason…lightning bolt….always simple, nothing complicated, obvious, pretty straight forward ideas….i am not an intellectual, but i do think about things….esoteric and utilitarian concepts coming together….yes, a dreamer forever, but i do like to see product on the table so to speak…anyway, i woke up with an  idea and title for a new magazine(as if i needed more work! and Anton hates me for this!)….anyway, four hours after my “wake up call” we bought…

Circus …the online magazine for the REAL EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS…..

young photographers aged 15 and under…..not a kids magazine…the opposite….

an international magazine produced by the very young generation that would appeal to “adults” as well as to their own peer group..sophisticated…leading edge….

when you think about it for even a few seconds you can see it…killer…

yea, yea kids with cameras is nothing new….that is the point…we will  work with schools, aid organizations, inner city groups, NGO’s,  etc etc to create a child safe site and allow a real home for all this work which is being done worldwide….just as we know that the walls of grade schools are filled with great art , we know that the purity of the very young will manifest itself in something very very special….i will ask Burn photographers to help …with their ideas and with their time and with their curatorial efforts…so now i am digging a hole for you!! you can’t quit now…..told you.

with the combination of Burn and Circus we have nothing but interesting things to think about….and work to do….if you do not see it that way, i suggest you log off now….if you do stick around,  i plan to continue nurturing  this audience as much as i can…i can only do so many Skype calls in a day, or portfolio reviews in a day and your patience is appreciated… but, many of you know that i do give it a good try….

why would i do this?  simple…if i discover even one strong talent out of a thousand , then i will have done my bit…

if i can mentor one book, one show, one photographer who makes a mark, then all is well…and the work in progress nature of Burn allows all of us to see a cross section of what is being produced today…for better or worse…and the more good photographers who are inspired here, or developed here, will only lead to stronger content ,therefore making us more viable for support with each passing day…and Burn will pull Circus, and Circus will push Burn and, well,  you get it i am sure….smart crowd….

why i am writing this just before a 24 hr marathon flight is beyond me…avoiding packing and paying last minute bills could be a reason…not having written a Dialogue post in a long time could be another….or, more likely, i just have built up energy and it has come out somewhere…this is too damn long, but i do not have time to really edit…so this is raw… a contact sheet or whatever…please just remember the good parts…laughing.

oh by the way, remember the story from last july on my stray cat, now constant companion, Simone?

well,  Simone is pregnant…now what??

1526 Responses to “cutouts??”

  • Well…

    I have waited for idea like this. I was sure you will dig deeper for talents. where to search for talents if not between youths? I know you have strong teacher’s nature. Best teacher’s nature. Bravo for CMA for “Plato” name.
    Maybe I could help. Not sure now, but I have an idea. I have to ask some people. We’ll see.

    must run to work.

    peace and b wishes

  • Just for a moment, I want to reflect on the aspects of community…this one in particular.

    Formed in cyberspace, real friendships have blossomed in real time and real life. People care and encourage others to do their best. The words and thoughts of david & others who share the same passion inspire me (as I hope it does for many). I believe in the strength of friendship and community and I’ll step up to any task necessary in which to help make it work.

    I don’t know many other photographers nor do I fully understand why I do what I do…freakishly watching in wonder…colors, shapes, patterns…the dance of strangers in the streets as they flow through their lives unknowing that there is a moment where their alignment is sublime visual poetry…recently I poked my head out, sought a photo community and a way to further my education…I think I found something special…if not some great friends, stimulating conversations and sound advice.

    Good begets good, like crates like, When you give of yourself or help someone, without expectation of return, the sensation is pure joy…cynics would say otherwise but I’m not talking about altruism… everybody wins…do a favor…make a connection happen between strangers…help paint a friends house…do something to make someone happy…perpetuate joy and graciousness…

    I want something real and unabashedly wild…bold but not reckless…pushing boundaries…testing strengths and weaknesses. Even here, in cyberspace, there is beauty in the breakdown and not much is a waste of time…breakthrough will eventually follow if we allow ourselves to go for the ride.

    So, Break out the hippie school bus…turn up the music…I’ll be packing the bong in the back, making coffee and snacks for the drivers at 3AM…if the smoke ever clears maybe we will find ourselves in the middle of nowhere…but that’s the place I want to be… :~)

    My sincere thanks to d & this community for the ability to create and hold the space for each one of us to learn, ponder, create and inspire.

    Kidz and Kittens go well together…looking forward to seeing them nurtured.

    With great love and respect,

    ”be impeccable with your word…take nothing personally…make no assumptions…always do your best.”
    ~ The four agreements, Don Ruiz

  • Nice one David,
    inspiring from an early age, brilliant.
    I have just done a small talk and some photo projects with the local primary school (six year olds), man they are not scared of digi, they love it. Put together a couple of projects for them to work on, I went back a week later, amazing results stuck all over the classroom. The teacher was over the moon saying it was the best art thing they had done for ages, the ids loved it. In a few weeks I am taking them to a gallery opening of my work, to show them what you can progress to.


  • Congratulations on the pregnancy!

    If I could, as the day of birth approaches, I would hop on a plane and go down there and photograph the new kittens myself. My signature here links to my main blog, of course, but I keep another one – my very first venture in electronic publishing – and it is dedicated entirely to cats.

    You can find it here:

    And if you don’t think that a cat blog can ever intersect with serious issues, then click on the following link to find a 5 part series that tells the story of a cat in Chugiak, Alaska, as it helps a soldier’s mother get through the turmoil, loss, heartache and horrific challenge that the Iraq war brings to her. Keep in mind that the link is to the final post of the series, but that opens up to the previous four, whereas if I start you out on the first, it won’t open up to any of them:

    This brings me to another point that I want to make, and did to an extent in a comment to an earlier Burn piece. First, I love Burn and the purpose of Burn. What you are doing is great and I agree – I think that the future of photojournalism is going to be fantastic and I stand amazed at what I see young photographer’s doing. If, as you suggest, some of the young look backwards with envy toward the halcyon days of photojournalism that have now slipped away, it is the opposite with me – I look forward with envy, and wonder why the hell the technologies that are developing now could not have coincided with my 20’s, rather than my latter 50’s, soon to give way to 60’s.

    As a “senior” (God, I hate to use that word in relation to myself) shooter, I continue to feel all the drive and desire to forge forward as a photographer (and a writer) that I did when I was in my 20’s. As I have for over 35 years now, I wake up each day feeling that I have yet to but am still bound to “emerge,” – yet I cannot in any way jump into Burn with the emerging photographers. As far short of my goals as I have fallen, I have done too many things for that. Very early in my career, I published a three-part spread of words and photos in National Geographic, I have done books, have been named a W. Eugene Smith Memorial Fund first-runner up, but mostly I have devoted my career to producing and creating one-man photojournalistic publications that have been dedicated to covering American Indian and Alaska Native Eskimo, Indian and Aleut peoples and issues.

    These have been great fun to do, but they have also been small circulation works with inadequate funding for me to ever fully reach the visions that I had for them.

    And now I see all this new technology made just for the lone wolf such as myself and I just want to jump in and go, go, go!

    I do not want to fool with paper anymore. My past ways of working no longer hold any interest to me. And I am clawing at the digital rocks, trying to figure out how to scale them, how to make this new technology work for me. So far, though I have yet to even come close to doing with them what I envision, I have had a lot of fun with my two blogs, yet each minute that I put into them is a minute removed from making a living – a task that I have never excelled at, although I have long survived as a freelancer.

    Now, whenever I turn myself to the task of making a living, I feel that I am wasting my time. Hence, the tasks necessary for my survival take me ten times as long to complete as they once did – and that in turn makes it all the harder to make a living.

    So, I kind of wish a savvy person like yourself would make a make a magazine called something like “Burn-ed out, never – an evolving journal for driven old fart photographers.”

    But no one is going to do that. So, though it seems I only flounder now, I am going to figure it out, on my own, because as a photographer/writer/one-man publishing house, this technology was created for me, more than for anyone else that I know, young or old.

    As I struggle to figure it out, I will be a big fan and student of Burn, both to watch with excitement as your photographers emerge and to study, to see what I can learn from you and them in order to further my own aspirations.

    I suppose I have detoured from the purpose of comments, but its what I felt and thought as I went through this post, so there you have it.

  • It’s all those stray toms you have been letting in…….

  • I am sure circus will work and work well ……. the young love to do lose the plot and do do do do……. eventually burn will look pedestrian gotta luv it

  • Simone?
    Ahhhhhhhhhhh life in the beach…:)))))))))))


    exactly…Burn will look pedestrian compared to Circus….the whole point….everybody needs to loosen up, shed the layers, and work with childlike wonder and naivete …nobody does it better than a child, but the rest of us can at least pretend to pretend….oh yea, shhhhhhh, i think Simone might have gotten pregnant by her own brother down the street….scandal is everywhere…


    great thoughts…many thanks…going to sleep (for an hour…i can sleep on the plane..sure, sure)

    big hug, david

  • ALL…

    off to the airport in a few hours for the longest damn flight i have had recently, 25 hrs to BKK…hey, this is where print still rules (temporarily)…back pack full of mags and books….long flight, lots to read…no communication from me for a couple of days….back soonest…

    cheers, david


    that cat with Charlie in the first picture really looks just like Simone, including the collar color..hmmmm….i take your words to heart….the struggle..survival…however, i am sure you agree it is 90% psychological…if you get yourself on a personal project that just soaks up all your time, something good will come out of it…i am struggling along with everyone else, but somehow it feels good to me…in the sense that i know something will happen…get invented…patient revived…it will not be like what it was, but it will be something…. survival tactics breed invention and cunning….write me a private email, and i will answer with some thoughts…

    cheers, david

  • Would love to offer my help for circusmag.



  • Dear David,
    I hope your flight went well and you reached BKK nice and easy.
    I love your idea of Circusmag.
    If you want, I am involved in some mentoring of young kids from difficult backgrounds here in London. The institution they are referring to is, a production company that involves young kids in all sorts of things, from photography to journalism, TV series, music and fashion. They have been so successful that the British government is now relying on them for a number of projects that deal with human right and climate change, so that they are now producing this magazine called “Control Alt Shift”, about these issues.
    I think that it could be a fantastic and unique opportunity for them to be linked with CIRCUSmag, publish their work or simply to know that you, Anton and CIRCUS could have yet another home here in London. Couch, beer and more is also available here!

    Please do consider me available to help you in this.

    All the best and thanks for the amazing work you guys are doing.

    By The way, I wanted to say one thing about BURN.
    The strength of burn is not only the showcase of thrilling works, but in my opinion is more about the unique format of such publication, in the sense that it offers a real platform for exchange of views that help each photographer to improve his/her work through the constant confrontation of ideas and input from the participants.
    Burn to me it’s a constant source of inspiration, a never-ending seminar, a non stopping workshop, a million and one pages book, a window to the world and finally a beautiful group of new friends.


  • Sigh. Burn is not fully formed, you plan to start another online rag, and you are constantly flying everywhere in the world. It reminds me of the punchline of an old joke that goes something like, “he jumped on the camel and shot off in all directions.”

    Seriously, David, your heart is getting way ahead of your head.

  • Well, good idea, but I have to agree with Jim here.

  • DAH…
    I taught photography—mostly pinhole and photograms—to kids at an elementary school, a few years back. If there is anything I can help with long distance, let me know.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I Am in tears…

    Today I want to kiss and hug MR.HARVEY and ANTON and ALL of you …

    “Life loves to be taken by the lapel and told: “I’m with you kid. Let’s go.””
    Maya Angelou

    LET’S GO BURNIANS and do the CIRCLE of LOVE (The Latin word circus comes from the Greek word kirkos, meaning “circle” or “ring”)

    Time to face our fears… clowns maybe…???

    P.S Simone no more…what about Jocasta and Oedipus …oime …
    CIRCUS OF BURN …WE are a Circle of LOVE

  • a civilian-mass audience

    and I will agree with some BURNIANS…

    MR.HARVEY and others around the Universe…don’t forget to take your aspirins and vitamins…
    try to eat organic…hmmm… everything in moderation ( vigorous intercourse excluded )

    and please…conserve some energy…together we can do great things (…included…hihihi)

  • a civilian-mass audience


    smile , you are behind the camera :)))

  • The world goes around because there’s some people not having their hearts in the same place as their heads and still manage to stay positive…

    off topic: lists you, DAH, as artist, and you, Michael Loyd Young, as photographer when searching for the book, and only DAH when sold:

    1 “Blues Booze & BBQ”
    David Alan Harvey; Gebundene Ausgabe; EUR 24,98

    Kinda weird…

  • Oh boy, here we go… Nothing like a good adventure. I’m speaking to groups of middle schoolers in December. I did this last year and I had a great time. Anything you want me to pass on to them David?

  • This whole circus magazine thing is just an incomprehensibly sad diversion. The web is seductive. It’s easy to get a domain name and put up a web page. With Burn having so far to go, and with Harvey and Anton’s extremely limited time to do it, and the continuing struggle to fund it, creating yet another web mag seems bizarre and a bit irresponsible.

  • DAH, interesting …

    Hmmmm … I am paying for the education of some kids through organizations. For a little boy called Wellington in South Brazil for example. It keeps him and the others off the streets, provides good meals and basic education. But that is it. There is often no real perspective … It is only an additional chance I can give them – something they might not have gotten under their “normal” conditions. A chance they might, or might not use to find a better place in life. I keep telling myself that a chance is sometimes all someone needs. But to be realisitc, the odds really are not good. So …

    I could imagine going there to introduce and nurture this project. Not only to “my” kids, but to their whole classes – this might be another chance one or two of them could grab. Trouble is, it is not my backyard …
    I will think about this, talk with some people and get back to you.

  • Hello all,
    Just wondering if anyone will be attending Paris Photo this year? If anyone is up for it, how about meeting for a drink and a post-Paris Photo discussion in a bar or cafe. It starts this Thursday in the Carrousel du Louvre.

    take care
    D. Bacher

  • Hi David,
    contact Audrey. She said she would try to make it.
    I wanted to, too … But too much on my table right now … Guess you know why :-)
    Cheers and pls show us some pictures.

  • Hi David Bacher and all,

    I’ll be at Paris Photo on Thursday, maybe on Friday too… I registered in this (free!) workshop
    I’ll be happy to meet you all, please contact me tel: 06 61 12 21 32 or

    Lassal, I’ll not forget :)))

  • DAH…

    you never stop surprising do you : )

    after a couple of weeks off-line i check back here to see what’s been happening and read your post…

    shades of Dr Seuss ‘who is the who? you is the who that’s who…’ which is the perfect tone with circus in mind…

    at the very end of december (31st) Uma will turn 10, she will be getting her first camera, although she does not know anything about it, yet… she’s been nagging us all year for a camera… she used to love playing with my old digi point & shoot some 5 years ago (until it died) and even then, at that young age i got excited from her perspective on her world. but now she is old enough to be responsible for her own camera and storage space…

    circus sounds like a very clever and wonderful idea to me. on a few levels…

    digging myself into one of your holes, (funny, i’ve spent the day digging holes today, for garden beds and big rocks and caravan tyres…) i would love to somehow be involved in this, perhaps help curate, maybe try something with the school kids in my area, dunno… in the new year i will at last be free of many of my migration related burdens of the past two years, i have many plans and ideas, i am excited to have more time, more time for my family, more time for my photography, more time for my veggie garden… perhaps this is something else for my time… if i can help in anyway…

    as Picasso said ‘Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist …’

    and as you said ‘when you think about it for even a few seconds you can see it…killer…’ –

    and as they say downunder ‘good on ya!’


  • CIRCUS is perfect!

    DAH – I don’t know if you saw this when I posted it the first time around, but the morning I woke from this dream I knew it was one of those dreams that is more than a dream:

    October 20, 2009 at 10:32 am

    I couldn’t wake up this morning because I was deep in a dream, we were all at the loft, there was another burn gallery opening and sales were happening, we actually had sort of a print on demand service going on with a curated selection of available prints which we kept the files for instead of prints..and then later we had a workshop, with kids there and a team of us made a hands on mm piece with them..there was a dog too David, I hope you don’t mind I let the little ones and a dog in, I held the dog the whole time.

    LET”s GO

  • Woody Alan quotes Groucho Marx in Annie Hall with a joke I have always felt embodied my arbitrary ideals …
    “I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member.”

    Well, I can finally put that rib-tickler to rest … Burn is the future; this is history … dissemination, nurturing, support, criticisms, collectivism and individualism … Modern-post-modern my ass the new term is BURN.

    Keep it up David and remember Burn has a friend named Vasilios in New York …


  • A bit off topic, but then maybe not.

    The 6:30 mark of the video most certainly caught my attention.

    It is still about getting what is in the mind’s eye out into the real (and I guess, the virtual) world. But changes in technology, the speed at which they change and the ‘oh my god’ factor are astounding.


  • Just the legal aspects of kids and their photos, rights, parents permissions sound daunting.

  • Multiply that with the laws in the various countries. Forums would have to be heavily moderated. Sounds like a legal landmine to me.

  • Multiply that with the laws in the various countries governing children. Forums would have to be heavily moderated. Sounds like a legal landmine to me.

  • Don’t know why the double post.

  • Jim, it must be that double dose of pessimism is getting to the system:-)

  • Audrey,
    I’m not sure if I’m going to Paris Photo Thursday or Friday. In any case I’ll give you a call on your cell phone and we can try and meet up.

    a bientot

  • Only those who tried, know if it worked out.
    DAH, I like this idea of circus and it is quite unique. Certainly there are some issues, but they are with everything.
    I hope your flight goes well and you enjoy it.

  • idea of circus and it is quite unique….. probably not that unique there are heaps of sites the youth use create and access. Direct adult control on what is good/important etc many will not participate, I wouldn’t post if I was a kid….. fuck the old codgers ………………………that is anyone over 20

  • I have a bunch of keen multimedia 15 year olds today I will pass the idea of the site by them…………..

  • ………….if there is money involved well the goal posts change…..grin

  • ………….if there is money involved well the goal posts change…..grin

    Yes, particularly if we initiate a charge per post formula to raise funds.

  • BTW Imants,

    Is there a way to see what these keen multimedia 15 year olds are producing?

  • Government run institution so I am reluctant to show

  • I didn’t start taking pictures until I was past 30. Hopefully Circus can inspire kids enough to avoid making the same mistake. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

  • Just wait until a parent sues because little Bobby posted photos of his friends on the Internet without their permission. Harvey, this is a really bad idea.

  • I think I was 6 years old and nearly ran my grandmother into the poor house buying polaroid film so I could document everything. Around age 12 I had an amazing art teacher who got permission to turn a janitor’s closet into a darkroom for me. A real life hero to a kid…

  • Jim, with all due respect (given your publishing background), do you really think this is a show stopper? Unless the images are used commercially, is there much of a legal argument? I’m sure DAH & Anton will take any necessary precautions with releases, etc.

    If publishing photos of under-18 kids on the internet without parental consent is such a hot button, why aren’t Facebook and MySpace sued out of existence?

  • kids under 13 can’t participate in forums and contribute to sites anyway until a parent has given consent…operators who have sites whose focus involves children take care of this before the kid posts…so it seems pretty straightforward to me that provisions will be made to ensure the content is released too if it needs to be. of course i don’t know the all the legalities involved, but bottom line is that David and Anton will.

  • Facebook and Myspace are very different. Websites that cater specifically to children have legal requirements, such as parental consent and privacy issues that go beyond those of general websites. When children are involved, there is a very real legal argument. If you are under 13, by the way, you cannot use Facebook.

  • Actually, Erica, David seems to not even think of the legal implications of all of this until someone points them out to him.

  • I get that it may SEEM like that to you, but clearly David doesn’t write about everything he thinks about – and this is a very broad thinking man.

  • Who’s asking for a kitten from Simone?

  • A kitten would be a thrill for my little dog. No kidding, he grew up with cats. He loves them and does not understand why the ones he meets here do not seem to appreciate his presence …

  • Let’s not let fear of the lawyers crush dreams and aspirations before they’ve even had a chance to flower. That said – Jim does have a point (or two), in that there are some formidable obstacles. Nevertheless, others have done things like this, even here. Friends of mine started a foundation about fifteen years ago which very specifically uses photography with kids, particularly in gritty urban neighborhoods.The foundation survives, and yes, photographs taken by 9 year olds actually get published, some even on the internet. It’s not insurmountable (but the effort has been grueling so far as I can tell). Take a look at – this is the place I’m talking about.

    That said: I think that David’s talking less about photography as therapy here, and more about liberating the intense creativity of kids, and giving them a vibrant platform. Even a cursory Googling of kids and photography brings up a number of sites and venues, so the challenge is less likely to be around publishability etc, and more around how to create that compelling, focused environment that brings kids’ creativity to the fore.

  • @ someone please in BKK: Can someone swicth off David, he has more stamina that the bunny of Energizer… !!(laughing. Great idea!! Having a whole community of photographers from 2 years to 99…amazing. What a present for the 1st anniversary!!

    I’m totally in with this idea. I’m calling the spanish burn community all over the globe. If the project goes by, I’ll help in the translation of some text from English to Spanish, so kids can read that easily without the helps of parents.
    Who’s IN??

    C U,

  • Damn, Panos! You are trendsetter with your blurry cat!

    Photography’s newest obsession: bokeh in the FOREGROUND! Yep, everyone will soon be comparing the bokeh of various lenses. “I like how my Summicron renders the foreground out-of-focus, to separate it from my subject, the background.”

    :-) Big hug!

  • sorry, should have read “comparing the bokeh of various lenses on close objects”. :-)

  • ALL…

    Doug mentioned TED talks… reminded me of an fantastic talk given by Sir Ken Robinson
    all about children, creativity, the education system and the future…

    Under the circumstances i think it’s a must watch for everyone…

    it runs for almost 20 mins, but it’s well worth your time, it’s extremely inspiring, very funny, thought provoking… and totally relevant.

    DAH… perfect in-flight inspiration…

  • Hillary, wonderful post.

    I’m with ya on that one. Count me in.


    p.s. my household has a 3 month old puppy and an 11 year old who already takes better pictures with a Pentax K1000 than with a point & shoot. Can we join the Circus? :)

  • Justin, re: foreground bokeh, check out Kyunghee Lee’s essay _Island_ here (just search to find it).


  • Sam, that is a great TED post….I can’t remember how I found it some time ago, but I actually have a quote from it on my FB page and in my notebook…

    “If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” – Sir Ken Robinson

    Good light, All

  • Some time back I made some comments about how people should be careful about what they say and how they act in an online forum since you never know who may be reading and also because google search can find old comments easily.

    The website Aphotoeditor has a post that talks about perception and how it relates to a clients decision to hire you…. An interesting read.

  • Like I say, the web makes everything worthless.

  • Photography’s newest obsession: bokeh in the FOREGROUND! comonly known as why is my lens back focusing

  • Any chance that Simone’s kittens would be able to carry extra batteries/CF cards strapped to their backs? If so, I could use one.

  • Simone is pregnant. So is burn…giving birth to Circus.

    In the case of Simone I recommend spaying!

  • I think the entire idea sounds great. I don’t want to sound negative but my only concern is how David and Anton are going to be able to continue their own work? There are only 24 hours in a day. But then again, they certainly know how much they can handle!

    Meanwhile on the home front; just found out I missed out on the Creative NZ funding. Oh well, wasn’t banking on it and you’ve got to be in to win. I think what sunk my project was that it was too “commercial” Time to put Plan B into action.

    Anyway; just been notified by email that my new Holga is on its way to me. So there you go; a silver lining! Or should I say a shiny Chinese black plastic lining!

  • DAH wrote: “i always wondered why Allard never went beyond his assignment and create a book on the Blues..almost a crime….yes, some of his best work..but Bill never works unless on assignment, which is strange for such a fine photographer…a loss to be sure that he did not go back down and do that book….i leaned on him several times, as did all his friends, to no avail…”

    Even stranger still given that I saw an interview somewhere where Allard said he could have spent a lifetime photographing the blues … but … he is certainly still taking pictures, yes?

  • “what could be more worthy in life than the passing on of knowledge to the next in line??….leads to the big warm all around….give it away is what i say…please do it the first chance you get…this time may come sooner than you think….”

    David is so right about this. After having had the good fortunate to have been mentored by him on my self portrait project, “Falling Into Place,” I came to the realization that I could never pay DAH back for all that he’d given me so freely. The best I could do was to hope the day would come when I could pass on the gift by mentoring someone else.

    My opportunity came much sooner than I could have imagined, sooner than I felt ready, to be honest. But I’m so glad I said yes when a friend asked me to mentor his wife with her newly-purchased Canon 50D. Diana and I have been working together weekly for the past four months, and I have learned so much from her! Like me, she started from scratch in terms of technical knowledge but was brimming over with a “can-do” spirit that has taken her so far so fast. This 50 year-old woman lives on a farm and takes me seriously when I tell her to take shots from every possible angle. She’s shot more times while lying in chicken shit than you can imagine! Her ingenuity takes my breath away. Age doesn’t matter; it’s all about excitement in the doing.

    So when David talks about extending Burn’s mission to children, I am behind him all the way. My concern, like Ross’s, is how to accomplish this without stretching David and Anton to the breaking point. But like a circus, will succeed if there are many players in the ring. Together we can pull this off. So let’s figure out how to share our diverse and complimentary gifts with youngsters across the globe.


  • “If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” – Sir Ken Robinson

    I keep tellin’ ya Andrew, originality for it’s own sake is highly over-rated…much/most of the best recent work here is traditional, latest essay as an example.

  • Patricia

    Yes, when we mentor, we learn at least as much from our students as they from us. I’ve always mentored, most recently my son Robin, 27, who is working with me now at my studio.

    I’m anxious to see this project develop.

    I’m a big fan of “kids with cameras” The film “Born into Brothels”, for those not familiar with it, documents the lives of children in an Indian red light district, and a project in which they are given cameras with which to document their lives. It is very moving. It is also a testament to the power of the photograph, and the power of a single person to make a positive change in someones life. You can purchase a book of the childrens photos on the web-site for $65.00. It is well worth it, and the proceeds go towards the project.

  • Jim, I’m surprised you didn’t lobby for a different name than Circus. Perhaps, ‘Crash”

    Then you could be reading ‘CRASH’ and ‘BURN’ . :>))

  • a response from a fottreen year old……. ahh yea it’s a good idea, I like it but you know,it will be still run by you older people………….it’s not the same, it’s not REALLY ours

  • Andrew

    Just watched the Robinson lecture, great stuff.

  • Welcome Circus !!!

    Brilliant idea – besides passing on to the core value of passing to the next in line, teenagers drive the internet, teenagers are the internet. They make it possible for MySpace, Digg, and such. It is really a circus out there and the programme is voted and decided by them. They have a mushy brain and it is an advantage in this case. They are the unmolested brains with originality of only they can match.

    David Alan Harvey – you are genius.

    I wish I could see you saying for the first time “It’s gonna be a circus” and laughing…. and then Anton mumbling in his french accent – circus, circus, circus …. hmmmmm. wait, CIRCUS – THAT’S MAGNIFICENT. MERDE -> check the name, check the name ….

    I wish a Burning Circus to us all!!!

  • Sam,
    great link and a great speech! Thank you for a big laugh! What Ken Robinson says is so, so true!
    Please watch!
    Enjoy the day!

  • teaching kids is endlessly rewarding and so much simpler than teaching older people…
    the best work which the ones i used to teach produced, (expelled and ‘troubled’ 13-15yr olds), was undoubtedly from their home lives.. as a way of gently enabling the group to talk about their personal experiences through photos – and without having to directly speak.. first lessons in relative reality.

    perhaps there would be parents prepaqred to allow that to be seen, yet most likely not.. it was never allowed to be seen outside the group.. some of it made billinghams work seem tame, especially from one who regularly came into class stoned – once on acid..

    apart from that there was some excellent work involving joiners, montage and their neighborhood which of course would not have the same challange to publish.

    it’s a great idea and with the free thought and ‘play’ attitude which so many adults seem to loose to ego and ambition it can potentially be a more interesting place.

    obsessive snapping as a youngster produces a great deal of work.. in fact tor capas new nursery teaches digital photography from the age of 1 yr, with water and shock resistant cameras.. they love it.. project it onto a big screen.. just as i did at collage with students in my last job.

    give it 6 months and i will encourage him to make a submission :o)

    ENJOY bkk david and ketchup soon.

  • The last time I was in Vanuatu I had the chance to look at some work done by kids from the squatter settlements. After they had got the “smile and snap each other” pics out of the way did some fantastic work.

  • I don’t understand circus as a flickr for kids. I do understand circus to be like burn, for 15+ youth.
    Certainly, parents need to allow this to the kids.
    The pictures are – to my understanding – curated, i.e. someone viewed them before they go online.

    Reading some comments here, makes me think that “children” and “photography” leads to a kind of one-way thinking. This is a real pity.

    I was moderator/admin for several years in a huge photo community, which also has youth and kids online.
    I don’t see that many issues, however these must be handled in a transparent way that the participants and parents know what it is about and what happens next.

  • Yes, I can see it now. David posts on Circus, “O.K., kids. Anton and I are going to be in the Australian outback for six weeks with no internet. Ya’ll play nice, now.”

  • Australian outback for six weeks with no internet……………. we do have internet out there . We dock the lambs’ tails and replace them with little satellite discs

  • Yeah, but can I download episodes of “The Prisoner” on my iphone out there? Lambs with satellite discs for tails are so “yesterday.”

  • so “yesterday.”……. not really as it is all about carbon trading the discs double up as solar energy units thus neutralise the methane gasses produced. and the farmer pockets the cash

  • no nrrd to download that’s were the “The Prisoner” retirement village is situated 54 klicks east of Bullamakenka as the galah flies

  • Circus Possible Successful Format
    a suggestion

    Dear all, I think that in order to distance this new venture from forums and blogs like Flickr and others, we should maybe see Circus as a possibility for younger keen photographers of not only exhibit their work online (thing already existing in flickr, myspace and so on…) but giving them the chance to have their work viewed and commented by a rotary panel of chosen burnians or more established photographers so that they can be mentored without having to attend expensive and far away workshops dedicate to older and richer people.

    By presenting Circus this way, not only this could really make a difference in the vast panorama of online photo based communities, but it could have strong potentials of being financed by various institutions.
    It would, more or less, take the format of a continuos photo contest, without the necessity for an award, without a deadline and open to all, like Burn.

    If This project would start successfully, and carry on being so, with a bit of effort (and/or with a bit of finances) we could start this virtual and real network of small but effective workshops. We could bring together youngsters from all over the world and they could learn from one another.

    I have already written on my previous comment that I do work with young people in London teaching them photography, and the institution that is supporting these kind of workshops is very keen in seeing further follow-ups, specially in the international scene, that would only help doing things better.
    Any comment is welcome!
    Thanks guys

  • Circus …the online magazine for the REAL EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS…..

    young photographers aged 15 and under…..not a kids magazine…the opposite….


    time for some original photography…
    enough with all those “blurry kittens” from disturbed adults…
    time for some new ideas coming from innocent kids…
    great idea
    lets do it
    big hug yall from the city of Mustaches..


    ohhh..ive been travelling on this road too long……….

  • I was about to travel north today… but i felt so tired…

  • Gordon

    first, props for posting that TED link go to Sam – I just remembered seeing it and actually rewinding and writing down that quote….

    You said “originality for it’s own sake is highly over-rated”….I agree in one context…but I think about that quote in the context of finding our own (original) voice….and that we can find our voice by attempting to copy (isn’t that one of the basic artistic approached as one learns?), but that we can’t be afraid to follow our hearts when seeking that voice…or be afraid of making mistakes along the way….

    To tie this back to the child-like approach and innocence and lack of fear of failure, if you will….I once heard an author talk about being born physically disabled, impoverished, black, in apartheid S. Africa…and how his dream was to learn to sail….

    As he recounts it, you need to remember one thing about children…they often don’t accept “no”, and will repeat the same question even after being told “no” several times (all of us who are parent likely recognize this trait :)….he tells of being about 11, and going to the Royal Yacht Club in Johannesburg…and simply walking up to people and asking “will you take me sailing?”…so that it went like this:

    “will you take me sailing” “no”…
    “will you take me sailing” “no”…
    “will you take me sailing” “no”…
    “will you take me sailing” “no”…
    “will you take me sailing” “no”…
    and on and on for over a week….asking everyone he saw…and then finally…

    “will you take me sailing” “yes, I will”

    As adults…what makes so many of us lose that ability to go after our dream with that singularity of purpose, disregarding all of the “no” answers we get….do we at some point learn that “no” means give up?

    The end of the story is that he took that opportunity to learn all he could, and persevered in the face of amazing challenges…and ultimately made it into the elite world of solo yacht racing, and has sailed alone around the world in a sailboat he built himself….true story.

    We can all re-learn this from children…and help them….and in doing so help ourselves…

    Good light to all this Wednesday…and safe travels if you are on the road…

    p.s. The author/speaker who told that story is Neal Petersen, now a successful motivational speaker. I don’t usually go for this kind of stuff, but I highly recommend his first book “Journey of Hope Merchant”. Also, you can see some clips of his motivational speaking seminars here…especially check out the introduction, treasure chest, childhood, learning to navigate, and bottom of the world…

  • this is where i think i am…:)

  • Panos….know the feeling….

    Now, take your camera and go stroll, and capture that feeling….remove it from yourself into your work…

    At the very least, you can get out and have a good greek beer for me :)


  • .know the feeling….

    weird, numbing feeling..
    aint it?

  • I think the Circus magazine idea is good as long as Burn can keep on Burning with the same speed as it has.

    I bet there will be more single photographs at Circus…

    But I don’t quite see the same room for tough and honest criticism in the Circus comment section as here under the essays. You got to speak the same language as the kids do, or else they won’t learn anything, and if they don’t learn anything the purpose is gone. But as long as people comment with an easy language and without being over-complicated and over-analyzed it might work out fine.

  • David B

    I’ve sent you an e-mail. Need a quick reply!

  • “weird, numbing feeling..
    aint it?”

    indeed it is….i know it sometimes when I’m traveling – having to travel alone, usually not knowing anyone in the city where I am….

    numbing, empty, detached…

    last picture I took while in that mood is going to right now…..

  • I think many of you may have gotten a bit off topic…What about the conceptual direction photography such as Bobby Davidson’s work goes? I think its something worthwhile being investigated. Asking ourselves questions about the nature and function of photography is relevant now more than ever. All of his photo work seems to have a conceptual bend to it and its awesome!

  • bjarte..
    done.. see you soon.. look forward to seeing your new work.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    BURN and CIRCUS family …

    Let’s ..BURN the CIRCUS

    VIVA…good energy BURNIANS…new blood is coming…open the windows…let the fresh air

    PANOS,it might be the mousaka… the wine is ready and wild pork in the oven …
    What not to BURN !!!

  • I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.

  • I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.

    i know its a joke.
    i hope its a joke.
    better be a joke…

  • Andrew B. I’ve posted this once before but thought I’d re-post it as it has a common thread to your sailing story…

    “The youth gets together his materials to build a bridge to the moon, or, perchance, a palace or temple on the earth, and, at length, the middle-aged man concludes to build a woodshed with them”

    Henry David Thoreau

  • ok…ALL..

    I JUST “discovered” the new “next big thing”…not for BURN…


  • I hadn’t seen this yet..check it out..from Oaxaca.

  • I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.

    Panos – it IS a joke. :)

    Where is the link?

    And where is Vink?

  • a civilian-mass audience


    “Kids are wonderful, but I like mine barbecued.”
    Bob Hope

    (to be perceived as a joke) …Blues, booze and BBQ…and Kids

    P.S the link is kinda mess…BUT bare with me :)))
    LOVE ,LOVE, LOVE…today we drink Cranberry Juice

  • a civilian-mass audience


    VINK went for a leak
    when PANOS is looking for the link
    DAH is doing the Jet lag dance
    ROSSY talks about the youngs
    EMCD is always on the spot
    DAVIDB is looking for scotch

    and I left behind doing the rolling globe…

    I can’t find a word for the CIRCUS people…CIRCUSIANS …hmmmm

  • David B…:)))))
    Damn , thats insane…….dope…
    VIVA CIRCUS………..
    THOSE KIDS…they have a lot to teach…us..
    all of us……….
    my oh my…….
    ( i thought i knew.. didnt know shit…….)

  • or…
    One bourbon
    One Scotch
    One Beer……. u r a detective…….

  • a civilian-mass audience

    MY GRACIE, AITKEN…come on BURNIANS…bring your baby CIRCUSIANS …buy them a polaroid and let
    them show us what they see !!!

    I TRUST the new generation…this is a good one .

    p.S BBQ anyone ???:)))

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I am just a Civilian…hmmm…

    P.S there is an opening …CIRCUS is looking for CIVILIAN …


  • Haik..
    i saved the link for the CIRCUS launch..
    remember DAH…asked me to practice PATIENCE…
    and as JAY-Z once said:
    “I have no patience…and i hate waiting…”
    same here..same here…
    we have a great emerging photog coming up soonest…( less than 10 years old.Wayyyyyyyyyy less…:))))))
    very very very young…a talent..
    i will submit that essay to DAH ,ASAP…
    but im not gonna ruin the element surprise ..
    ahhhhhh life is good…
    i really cant wait to see Tor Capa with a camera in his hands..
    the game starts again..
    right about time..
    right when i thought that things are getting kinda boring over here…
    but of course DAH had another ace in his sleeve..

    Motorhead doing “Ace Of Spades” on The Young Ones

  • Page 10 “Photography and the Art of Seeing” Freeman Patterson.

    “A third major sight barrier is the labelling that results from familiarity. It was Monet, the painter, who said that in order to see we must first forget the name of the things we are looking at”

    “When we are children we think primarily in pictures, not words. But this approach is played down when we go to school. The basic analytical skills (reading, writing and arithmetic) are impressed upon us as being more important than the appreciation of direct sensory experience, so we come to depend less and less on the parts of the brain that encourages visual thinking”

    “By Grades Three and Four, many of us no longer regard painting or drawing as being very important; we stop visualizing things freely, and put word labels on them instead. This pattern becomes so firmly established that, by adolescence, we hasten to catalogue everything we see. We rule out visual exploration, and seldom discover the myriad facets of each object”

    Page 64 “Photography and the Art of Seeing” Freeman Patterson.

    “When a child thinks of drawing his mother, he may intuitively abstract love as one of her most distinguishing traits, and in drawings he leaves out many of the physical details of her body, but not the one that counts- her smile”

    “The child abstracts and then selects-quite naturally. The result is an honest and clear expression of the mother’s attitude and the child’s response. Photographers can learn a great deal from children’s art?

  • Meant to be “Photographers can learn a great deal from children’s art” – (no question mark…)

  • Participants of Circus arent circusians. does not sound well.



  • a civilian-mass audience

    HAIK, the wizard of BURN…
    Does this sound good …???


    P.S 1. Steroids
    2. Websites…

    ai,MR.HARVEY…it’s getting harder and harder for my ESL …:)))

  • Haik – Call them “Carnies”

  • the only reason i “hate” CIRCUS is my insecurity…
    im afraid that those young punks are “better” than me…
    mirror, mirror on the wall plz tell me that im prettier than them all…

    mirror what???????????

    no,…my mirror is broken…
    i have no wrinkles…
    me? im perfect..
    im young
    im creative
    im perfect



    jigga what?, jigga who?

    night night y’all from the mustachioland..( or athens )…( or the dirtiest , nastiest city in this universe )

  • haha Panos I remember the first time I played that song, uncensored, after hearing it all over the radio … I was with my parents and was like oh sh** this song is dirrrtier than i thought. what if we had to censor our work for the masses, and you couldn’t see the REAL images until you bought the book/looked at my website, etc??

  • DAH
    Circus is a crazy good idea, but i have to say that i would put the age limit up to 17, 17’s are still teens and totally lost in every way (at least i was when 17 ”””” at pigs in front of my *** (perhaps accidentally). loved to be innocently, arrogantly, and visually (still paying cause of my words) fucked up, even my *** said few days ago that some good comes always from shit) which means that the photos of 17’s (and under) are also total “stream of consciousness”. Hate those words (simplifies things too much) but i think that they (badger etc.) made those words up to make things more understandable for anglicans. to define how’s life in photographs, too defining, too easy, too this, too that. choose one. anyway.

  • circus is definetly a bad ass kool idea

    my nly wry is hw r d oldr generation plnnin to kp trck of the cmnts n d sms lingo ??

  • David,

    I imagine dreams from the name of “Circus”.
    It would be very valuable and precious work for each other
    I’m with you!

    best wishes,

  • 17 sounds about right as boys are still preoccupied with pocket billiards…… at 15 the game is still at its peak

  • …9:20am yall..
    moving up north today.. in a greyhound bus…
    after all those years of driving ( only ) now its time
    to see the real world…just downloaded all magnum podcasts
    on the iphone and im ready…
    leaving the mustaches behind for now..
    i need fresh clean air…which is everywhere and anywhere
    but athens…
    big hug

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I would suggest offense IMANTS…

    I am wearing my silver pan and I am facing west…where are you JIMMY ???

    and yes …thank you DIMITRIST…you and your football essay brought good luck to the Greek team
    SUNSHINE…beautiful weather…I LOVE YOU ALL

    Give me a smile and now shoot …

  • stuck again….
    not east , not west..not even north..
    its a long long story but..
    im stuck in the mustache city ,…
    and im a nurse.. yup u heard that right..
    im with a 9 year old… the kid has extreme flu syptoms..
    and i dont know what to do…
    im shooting a family, staying with & dad at work..
    and im the nurse…high fever.. im kinda paranoid of what flu..
    which strain..etc..i dont worry about me..
    i worry about the kid…
    im afraid i need to take him in the emergency…
    love you all.. wish me luck..
    coz i dont know what the fuck im doing…
    ok..over & out

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Breath and focus mate…

    don’t panic …hmmm…at least don’t show that you are in panic mode…

    We are sending good energy …and throw the toxins out …
    you will be fine …

  • …things looking better now..fever subsides…
    my voodoo prayers seem to be working..
    civi U DA MAN

  • Panos…

    don’t panic stay cool, remember like Fonzy, be cool…

    first look for a medicine cupboard…

    you need a thermometer to check how bad it is. or ask a neighbour.

    37c /98.4f is normal – oral is best way to test, otherwise check under the armpit (1 – 2 minute)

    (if it is over 104f (40c) get help or go to hospital, but try and call the parents first…)

    Here are some ways that a child with a fever can be made more comfortable:

    Dress child in light clothing.

    Give them small quantities of clear fluids such as water, weak tea, or diluted soda water or lemonade to drink at frequent intervals. (Lemonade is too strong for a child with gastroenteritis with diarrhoea — it must be diluted.)

    make sure that they are drinking enough to avoid dehydration.

    Give paracetamol in the correct and recommended dose (liquid form is best), with no more than five or six doses every 24 hours.

    You can also use ibuprofen.

    Asprin must not be given to treat fever in children. It can be seriously harmful for the child.

    stay relaxed, it will help the child a lot, they need to rest…

    all the best, it will be fine

  • Sam..
    thank u… following your directions…
    so far victory…the dis fever is down to 38.9
    from 40 an hour ago…
    thank u sam
    thank u burn
    ( always there when u need it…what an amazing community we created..thanks David…)

  • a civilian-mass audience

    ououaou…I LOVE YOU BURN…I am in awe…

    BURN it’s working…
    PANOS ,you did it,…and yes, please no aspirin… SAM is DA MAN…

    P.S after the ordeal …u deserve some cranberry juice…on the CIRCUS !!!

  • Kids..stay away from drugs…

    its not cool….

  • The Leaving Trains were an American indie rock band from Los Angeles, California. Founded in 1980 by Falling James Moreland

  • Leaving Trains- women are evil

  • Panos

    Los Angelitis is a rare and extremely worrying condition. How anyone can miss this place is beyond the scope of most medical practitioners.

    How are you, Malaka?

  • Jared,
    how u dare ask a celebrity how it feels?

    listen to this:


  • Jared?
    How is the molesting van? :-)
    How are you?
    Where are you?
    I still have Panos’ lights :).

  • Haiko!

    Tacos sometime soon. For Panos. To celebrate his celebrity.

    I’m swamped this week putting out my college magazine. Oh and been working on this new thing. Released a trailer for it today.

  • jared, that looks cool. I’m intrigued…

  • Thanks Peter, it’s a fun experiment with some like-minded, enthusiastic people. I’ll let everyone know when we’re up-and-running towards the New Year.

  • Haik: Vink was in the bushes, away from the internet for a few days…Taking pictures.

  • Jared…:)
    SEVERELY IMPRESSED…………………………………………
    right on

  • DAH: there is a bunch of kids taking pictures of their life at “the Building” here in Penh. They had an exhibition at Bophana Center and some of it was quite interesting. It is an initiative of On Photography Cambodia.

    Maria Stott is running the place:

  • John..
    i cant open the link..:(

  • i mean the “last chance” link..
    i do see the last one (kids) u posted though:)

  • ok…cool..nevermind..
    now the link opens..
    thank u..
    big hug

  • Glad you like it Panos. :)

    Was a community endeavor, but edited by the one and only Kramer O’Neil.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Strangers no more…
    when there is a chance
    at all
    let’s explore the Building
    where must be a change
    for All…



  • jared..
    i didnt just liked it..
    i loved it..
    i recognized most of your photos..
    and the edit, the sequence,,,
    awesome, created a killer story..
    bravo malaKA

  • maybe the target group for circus looks more like kids like this 13-year old, who works as pro since 3 years:

  • Hello Mr Vink.
    I like photos from the bushes – especially wet converses :).

  • JARED – yes yes yes.
    let’s celebrate Panos’ newly acquired celebrity status. We can pose with the Moustache Guy to honor Panos’ fame.

    when? weekend?

    i loved the trailer. very well done. rock.

  • There was a gap of 7 hours and 12 min in between comments.
    this is to fill that gap.

  • Haik —

    We can try the weekend, but I get out of work really late. Weekdays are generally better for me, so if you can tuck the girls in and sneak out, that would be cool.

  • Jared – sure- let’s do a weekday. txt. msg. call. eml.

    This is how Jared _____ with STRANGE.RS :)

  • A good example of the fruits of childhood inspiration:

    Circus is a brilliant idea. My daughter is six, has a camera, and would love to participate. Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.

    im impressed by your resume my friend..
    were u photographing/recording all those wars?
    i would love to see some raw materials from the
    “insiders” point of you…
    big hug
    & im glad u made it back home safe, inspired and with a creative mind..
    keep it up

  • “My daughter is six, has a camera, and would love to participate. Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.”

    Untainted minds? Right. Children are bombarded with thousands of commercial images every day. I doubt you can find untainted minds unless they are in an undiscovered tribe deep in an undiscovered rain forest. Besides, there will be no six year olds on Harvey’s web site once he talks to the lawyers.

  • Hey yall..
    tonight im photographing the legendary band DEAD MOON..on & back stage..

  • “A new kid on the block,
    and he’s taking my place,
    walking on my grave…”

    ladies and gents…the DEAD MOON…in the city of mustaches..tonight..

  • Jim..:)
    why so sensitive..
    why lawyers?
    what would be that illegal?
    why anyone that is dealing with a kid
    has to be michael jackson ?
    i really dont get it…
    why schools are legal and “circus” cant?
    why cigarettes are legal and pot not?( except from venice beach of course )
    viva venice beach
    viva circus

  • Where our California Medical Marijuana comes from.

    viva Mendocino..
    plz, get educated here:

  • Jim your dreams may come true the circus could turn into a site for pushy parents……… “My wife is giving birth to twins on Thursday, we bought them matching holgas please earmark them for a essay in April 2014. they are brilliant

    ps I am not the dad we got the sperm from a famous photographer………yep you guessed it, that’s him!

  • Jim, Sure kids are bombarded with commercial images everyday,(I’m sure the paper you work for is responsible for this to some extent – the grim juggling act of editorial content and securing advertisers who are rapidly jumping ship to the net.) this has nothing to do with being tainted (unless that is your view of being tainted.). Even the most horribly neglected children have an interest, perception and enthusiasm for the world and its wonders that adults lose through experience and scepticism.

    A good friend is a child psychologist, who is constantly assigned to horrific cases of abuse and neglect, he is always in awe of the hope and innocents that is still inside these kids.

    This comes across in pictures kids take, they have a different and valid perspective of the world which sometimes we could do well to remember. Take a kid to photograph some of the stories in Africa, that you are so demeaning of and they might just be able to show you a different view of the subject.



  • Panos,

    it probably has nothing to do with michael jackson type things and everything to do with legal issues connected to minors, as far as things like property ownership go. Im not a lawyer but it is plain to see that there is a WIDE spectrum of issues here.


    maybe im a little naive..
    but i cant see much of a problem mentoring kids or inspiring them..
    perents will be around anyways…
    but then again..i could be wrong…legal issues never been my forte..
    big hug from the city of mustaches

  • All…
    celebrity saga continues…
    TV interview tomorrow..yes ( heard that right )…
    i cant wait to spread the word about BURN and baby circus…
    this time on the national mustache tv…
    our community deserves that…
    my name will be Apostle panos…

  • Fundamentally no, but realistically? It is going to be a headache. And ofcourse Im sure it will make it much more difficult to get 3rd parties to get involved in Circus. The problem may also be that there might be a spillover effect to Burn.

  • pushy parents or pushy teachers – i’m sure there will be submissions from both, yet i’m also certain there will be a wealth of work from teens n pre-teens who are web savvy and photo passionate.. flickr users.. after school clubs.. blahblah so on


    i think a great deal will come down to the content of the photography.. in some cases you may well be right and others you will not be..
    one way or another i’m confident there will be a bunch of good photos which will not have too many difficult morals to overcome..
    many schools in england have darkrooms and teach snapping as part of the arts.. digital photography is in schools everywhere..
    i can’t see jill n jackies slumber party or bob n bens happy-slappin snaps getting through the circus edit.. any more than they would be in the edit in a school show.

    reserving judgement – as is always best.

  • There is a big difference between schools and Circus though, isn’t there? Schools do not provide a platform for publishing work. I’m not sure what the laws are vis a vis minors and property ownership but such issues will have a strong application to Circus that they wouldn’t to schools just teaching photography. For example if someone published my work under their name I would probably have a legal case against not only that person but Burn as well. There are issues like this one must think about.

  • Our schools here would probably have to officially sanction circus before students could directly be involved. I have never shown any students on line nor would I ever do it on my own whim ……….. too big a minefield.

  • david, my take on DAH is that he is not going to want to be a nanny to a bunch of kids. Seriously. Which is what I mean about lawyers. Any forum for kids photography is going to have to be heavily moderated, photos carefully sourced, etc. DAH’s hectic lifestyle certainly isn’t conducive to being a full time nanny, so things are going to be much more complicated then Burn, even if you discount the legal minefield catering to children online imposes.

  • Jim Powers,
    “Untainted minds? Right. Children are bombarded with thousands of commercial images every day. I doubt you can find untainted minds unless they are in an undiscovered tribe deep in an undiscovered rain forest.”


    my daughters aren’t bombarded by thousands of commercial images on any day… and rarely have been. firstly we don’t have a tv, secondly we live in a rural setting with lots of trees, wild flowers, frogs, rabbits, ladybirds, parrots… i don’t know what kids you have contact with, if any, but don’t you think your being a little bit too sour, even by your own standards? come on, lighten up dude…

  • O.K. You and the other guy that doesn’t have a TV are exempted.

  • Simone is pregnant…now what??

    Damned! Another teenage pregnancy due to an absent parent, most likely… :-)))

    Kids and cams
    Great idea. Kids are cool photographers. Untainted, no, but that leaves plenty of other qualities, plus all the stuff they do not have to struggle to unlearn. Proof is, all these color pictures I mastered, some 10 years ahead of Egglestone, Meyerovich, and others, happened when I was a kid (already)….

  • “O.K. You and the other guy that doesn’t have a TV are exempted.”

    and all the kids at Waldorf schools, as they have a no tv policy…for a start. Where I have been living tv for kids is very demode, fact in some progressive circles you just might get shunned for letting your kids watch tv.

    but that’s neither here nor there, really. little warped minds can have great creative inspiration too :)

  • Yeah, Erica, maybe a pregnant cat essay.

  • (un-shun) Jim, hence the word “relatively” (re-shun)

  • Panos,

    Thanks, man. Not documenting but participating. I do have a bit of video footage, but it needs editing. Maybe I’ll get around to making something worthwhile of it and post it after the holidays.

  • ALL…

    midnite update from underground in Kabukicho, Tokyo…

    hugs to all… i would be nothing without BURN

    [ps this one’s for you david b mate…]

  • anton the great.. that fantastic news, really good stuff.. could have been way dark..

    i had no idea your fixer is in guns n roses .. top man

    stay safe and talk soon..

  • “i would be nothing without BURN”

    i don’t believe you.

  • …the dark alleys here have brought me many things but not the ability for a sensible answer – but mostprobably you are right.
    actually you have been as long as i remember :-)

    2.30 am here and more creativity awaits..

  • Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here’s GAry Numan performing “Cars” with NIN. Filmed by Rob Sheridan with the Canon 5D Mark II. Possibly the coolest thing I’ve ever seen.

  • brian – you’ll maybe dig this.. produced by one of the many trying to bring nottingham, back in the old country, to the peak of it’s potential..

  • and ANTON – for your sleepless morning..
    you are NOT 15peter20

    the thing is – you are doing it.. doing it without being obnoxious.. boastful.. judgmental.. verbose.. loud.. arrogant.. bombastic.. swaggering.. vainglorious.. abominable.. reprehensible.. repellent.. eminent.. odious.. or.. you know.. up-yer-sen.

    it’s all about play and you’re playing with what you’re doing.. quietly winding your way down the lane.. betraying talent.

    and, as a stranger to a stranger as we once were, you were above kind and generous of thought when we met and when our tor capa dropped out of beate… he has a viking mobile which has caused many giggles because of you.
    as our bob would say – be a good chap first, then lift the camera up.

    you would be nothing without burn?
    nah. ridiculous.
    alejandro chaskielburg would be struggling without you..

    spend your time giving others what they need, and what you need will just happen.
    (quote some blokme under a tree)
    look forward to your new work..
    whiskey waiting..
    all that jazz.
    be brave.. streatch that comfort zone..
    bea says ‘hello’.

  • DB. Did you get my email?
    Anton. They towed my car away and killed it man.


  • David, if that’s their first project, I’d love to see where they go next. Thanks for sharing.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    WE would BE nothing without ANTON

    Can we say we LOVE you???
    We miss you …
    Hugs to you,to your family,to your Japanese friends…
    skype me… to have your bed ready …yes, no more couches !!!

    P.S As DAVIDB said…whiskey waiting …

  • john big man – NO..
    NOOOOOOOOOO..not the merc.. the rust-bucket of love..
    i have had a quick glance, is all john.. i love the idea of speakers corner though and your approach is excellent.. going to drift though it more later – just been so busy ..
    lots of snaps grabbed me and i thoughht – are you shooting bnw film and scanning? from print or neg?
    very decent..

    actually – bjarte has been up our mountain with some snaps of a traveling dream, which he is going to exhibit..

  • civi – wine tonight.. infused in spaghetti sauce and sauce in general..
    red wine..
    big gulps..

    panos – how is the kid-os in mostach-os?
    fever is a panic..
    i did.
    now i just cuddle im.
    he laughs..
    as long as they are ‘themselves’, their tolerance is unbelievable.
    much better than us junkies.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    it seems that JOHNYG. had a problem with his car…you are the expert…flatbets, wheelifts,
    dolly wheels …hmmm

    makaronia, saltsa, wine,Beate…the night is all yours !!!

    BURNIANS…where are you ALL ??? I am so happy cause I am receiving so good energy from you
    and MR.HARVEY … wherever you are ,whatever you do…remember we ALL do it as YOU…
    Let’s dance …DoAsHarvey …

  • a civilian-mass audience

    and yes, CIRCUS will be a challenge …
    we will cry , we will celebrate, we will fall in LOVE , we will fart a lot,
    we will eat some buggers …BUT …we are fighters !!!

    P.S Street fighter…I am waiting …

  • Seems that the secret to getting really great kid photography, beyond kids that other photographers know, is to reach out to teachers. Every parent thinks their kid is the best, but teachers, at least in Iowa, have a knack for spotting really talented/motivated students. This could be great, but I’m nervous that overzealous parents could become enraged if someone does not get selected to be shown.

    Tread carefully.

  • it’ll be okay brian..
    storm in a teacup..
    agreed that good teachers see good talent, yet i also believe that a core of young snappers will always be pushing themselves outside of school.. systems.. parents.. just for the ‘whatever’..

    they’ll submit and they’ll have joiners.. montages.. multimedia.. over-laid text.. videos.. as well as that sometimes perceived dinosaur of sharply observed documentary..

    i don’t think there will be rage or overzealous parents..
    just envious burn commenters..

  • so..
    STOP CIRCUS>> parents and pedos will run riot..
    lawyers will wash hands in invisible soap..
    DOn’t (we) dare!!!
    i mean, like.. WTF>>
    like, yaknow?
    she said he said..


    know hope.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    “…yet i also believe that a core of young snappers will always be pushing themselves outside of school.. systems.. parents.. just for the ‘whatever’..” yeap

    and here in Greece…hmmm…photography at schools???…Speachless :(((
    where are you my Greek BURNIANS…???

    P.S oh, they are all in Athens …PET SHOP BOYS are in town…PANOS,THODORIS,ZISKAR,STELIOS,etc.etc
    Pet Shop Boys – Love Etc.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    to ALL

    “…I believe that we can achieve
    The love that we need
    I believe, call me naïve
    Love is for free…”

  • a friend and i built a darkroom in the art-room cupboard at school then taught the teeecha.
    of course –

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Where is WENDY??? hmmmm…

    VIVA DB !!! What not to THINK ???

  • a civilian-mass audience


    ETC…ETC…KATIE… we need update and your input…
    Where are you BURNIANS ???

  • what if ‘circus’ proves to be no more than a successful outlet for people producing innocuous yet interesting variations on a photographic theme?

  • Or goes nowhere because nobody has time to do anything with it?

  • a civilian-mass audience


    to be or not to be…

    what the heck…bring the beer, I am bringing kontosouvli…

  • One thing that comes to mind regarding Circus is the importance of finding a way to get past the screening programs that school systems run on their classroom computers. I volunteered from 2001-08 in the art classes in a K-5 school here in Michigan. During that time I was chagrined to find that all the photo blogs and websites I wanted to show the kids were not accessible on their classroom computers. We’ll need to find a way around that because we’ll definitely want teachers to be able to show to kids in the classroom.

    But I don’t see any of these challenges as insurmountable. I’ve been reading with great interest the responses that have been posted to DAH’s latest idea, and am seeing a great deal of excitement building up. Sure there are those like Jim who see things more critically than most, but we need that kind of feedback to keep our eyes open to potential problems. And yes, there WILL be hurtles to overcome. But hey, isn’t that true with anything new?

    To me our biggest challenge is to find a way to collaborate effectively in the set-up and running of Circus. We all know that Burn quickly spread from a tiny spark to a wildfire…and that put way more on DAH’s and Anton’s plates than they should have had to deal with. Before we go too far with Circus, we need to find a way to make Burn more collaborative behind the scenes. And then do the same with Circus.

    For now, let’s bring up all the pros and cons we can think of. Now is the time to examine this idea from all sides. But I personally think we’re really onto something…


  • a civilian-mass audience

    Midnight in Grecoland…

    I hope you all keep shooting …cause many Civilians are watching and waiting…

  • burn was/is a great idea.

    circus is a great idea too but sadly should stay as one until the day they clone Harvey or Anton
    and i mean no puppetry, and certainly not the cutout kind. the real working versions.

    * hi patricia
    * hi civi
    * hi kathee

  • And if you could get a school to unblock the website, you could not link to any other website and stay approved. Our district allows very limited access to the web for students.

  • But I don’t see any of these challenges as insurmountable…….it only takes one perceived offensive image and a parent and the site is blocked, the visual arts sites cop heaps. Some time ago a couple of kids I taught did a multimedia thing called “blocked site”
    Keep schools out until the circus establishes credibility within the www dot community and then the more conservative element in educational institutions won’t feel threatened. Though individual independent schools have greater say in their wants and needs,taking any educational institution head on will serve no benefit to circus the buggers love to dig their heels in if they are told what and how operate.

  • seems to be a lot of legal work or advise before harvey can go live.
    with everyone – ie anton and harvey heaps and loads of luck

  • Why would you even want to bring schools,teachers etc into the fray. The kids who are independent creative thinkers do not have a high regard for those types of institutions, it is the freedom from that drudgery they are after. It’s got to be about the individual and the carers/parents take some of the responsibility.

    ………….it’s the revenge,bullying style of photography that willa problem. Though most teenagers are aware of the illegalities etc few really understand or even bother to think about the consequences. Most of us no different as teens it was all about stuff the consequences and authority, except for goody two shoes down the road and his prissy sister, but she made my heart swim.

  • Lawsuit waiting to happen.

  • maybe there will be a couple, but that’s everywhere now

  • Harvey has too much to lose.

  • Jim it reads like you are making it your intent

  • Nah, “Circus” is a diversion for Harvey, a dead end road. Burn is a fledgling project that’s taking all of his and Anton’s free time (what little of that there is). For a lot of reasons, Circus is just a bad idea.

  • There will be others earmarked to run the site as there will/is be here………..I wouldn’t do it but then again I prefer to teach/tutor etc

  • First off, I must confess I haven’t read through most of the 2000 plus comments. Secondly, I think Circus is a great idea, though I wouldn’t get your hopes up about the quality of images you are likely to get. Lawsuits? I know nothing about those things. Artistic minded teenagers? I spend a lot of time with them. I think the best way to make it work would be to let teens, high school seniors or juniors at minimum, do most of the work. Finding motivated artistic kids like that here in Brooklyn is not that great a challenge. I can introduce you to some if you like, or their photography teachers. Though I generally agree with Imants about kids wanting to rebel against their schools and teachers, I haven’t seen that so much in photography programs. Those teachers tend to be cool and the students are more likely to worship them than rebel. And who cares if asinine administrators at repressive schools block the website? That mentality is a big reason that an online magazine like Circus would be worthwhile.

    I’d point you to some examples, but you you know how it is with kids and how they communicate (not) with the parental units. But here’s one piece I’m aware of, having helped minimally with the editing. I don’t know if it’s in anyway representative of what you might get from kids, but it is the real thing (albeit a video):

  • You can be as cool as you want but you still are not one of them. I still is great to have a circus style of site unblocked, Other than being a great educational tool it saves the “go home and check out such and such site and we will talk about it tomorrow” caper which is a pain. But hopefully all will emerge in time

  • Jared,
    You have anymore of those slap-o-optimism pills left? Jim needs a doze. I have fingernail growth ones to prevent typing and heavy-armenian-accent injector for screwing with speech to text software. But that’s extreme. He might get fired from texas for latter and forced to become a travel circusator.

    Happy friday night from los angeles nerve calming traffic


  • ALL…

    Suggestions please for a pre-photo shoot IPOD PLAYLIST for India.
    I’m looking to hear what you like to listen to in the car, train, bus, skateboard, rickshaw…
    before you go off to make pictures. Thanks!

    For example…corny perhaps but the other night in LA this came on. Seemed very appropriate.
    Listen to your Heart

  • “There will be others earmarked to run the site as there will/is be here………..I wouldn’t do it but then again I prefer to teach/tutor etc”

    Who is running the site here? DAH and Anton. And if anyone but DAH were hands on running Burn, there would be nobody here. And of course there’s the “I wouldn’t do it, but SOMEBODY will.”

  • There would be nobody here? running how? Developing? Before burn there was road trips with DAH only.

    Why are we here?


    wat about spanish gangsta rap ?

  • cathy

    lemme knw whn ur hittin india ….. m at

  • Vivek,

    Will do.

    Yes, any kind of music…

  • I have no doubt that young contributors to Circus will produce some strong content
    it irks me to come to somewhat the same conclusions as J.P.

    While I don’t see the potential legal issues as insurmountable as he does I agree, to the
    point, that to rush in and implement and execute the concept without at least some basic
    legal counsel is suicidal.

    Anything to do with minors,unreleased content, the internet, and the potential for misinterpretation
    of an image(s) is a minefield that requires a little more preparation than appears to be considered.

    With that out of the way, I do like the idea and it brings to mind a series of books of black
    and white images that were shot by mostly teens/tweens from India,Brazil,and South Africa themed around
    specific cities.
    The series name escapes me now as I gave gave the books away to a high school photo class but the
    content was, generally, as strong and personal, as many books in print by established veterans.

  • The idea of circus is born. The question now is: can we make this happen? Can we nurish the idea and make it work or are we going to kill it?

    The pros and cons as I see it. To educate people, to further their creative scope is the best and perhaps most rewarding thing you can do. I teach students of the age 20 and older and I only do it because it is fun for me to see them discover the secrets of a camera obscura or when the light bulb goes on in their heads and they understand the idea of a perspective or depth of field. Their joy and their curiosity and their work is what keeps me doing this.
    And in many ways I don’t only teach about technical aspects, but about attitudes. I try to show my students to be open, to be daring, to be courageous.

    Some of the most renowned photographers have parents who showed them the art of the black box. Andreas Gursky’s father was a photographer and Gursky himself was surrounded by photography at an early age. The same happened with Sam Abell or Ute Mahler and I guess there are many more examples.
    By the way there is a nice photo book published recently of the early work of Ute Mahler’s father. His name is Ludwig Schirmer and the book is called “zu hause” and it has images from the 50ies and 60ies of a rural village called Berka in the middle of Germany. A wonderful book, unfortunately little info on the web.
    David Alan Harvey’s “Off For A Family Drive” is one of his best works in my opinion and he did it as a teenager.
    The visual world will evolve, old paradigmas will die. When I look at the work of my students I see that there is a huge curiosity and yes, I feel a much greater freedom and more courage to experiment with images. This might be due to all the visual stimulation and availability and the easy use of new techniques. At the same time old masters are still appreciated.

    The biggest hurdle I see for circus is to handle legal issues. In Germany I would think parents are “quite” relaxed, whereas in England I noticed quite a hysteria about kids in public. To find the right balance is important. However when I take a picture of a child I always have to get the permission of the parent otherwise I cannot publish the image. Ignoring this can bring me in the devils kitchen and I am sure they will roast me until I am well done. So this is the most important aspect that circus has to take care of.
    A cooperation between parents, teachers and kids is vital.
    The web might give the ability to provide a platform and to link together over huge distances. This is what burn does. With circus I feel there has to be much more work on the ground. In workshops tutors and teachers have a great responsibilty and integrity is essential.
    As a teacher, a tutor or a guide to photography I feel the worst thing you can do to someone who starts out with photography is to kill the fun, the freedom and the joy to experiment. You can ruin the creativity of a person very easily. This is something I feel we should be aware of when we pass on our knowledge.
    Yes, there are rules and there are guidelines but one of the most important rules is to break the rules.
    I guess kids and teenagers like to do that a lot… As a teacher or tutor I have to get familiar with new ideas, new ways of thinking and that is a challenge for me as well. Killing an idea is always easy, to keep it growing and evolving is hard work.
    So, yes, the idea of circus is great, but it needs a dedicated and commited mind like David Alan Harvey to get this baby running.
    Count me in.

  • Haik, you are here because of DAH. If Haik (or anyone not of DAH’s standing in photography) had started a magazine of exactly the same name and exactly the same format and published exactly the same essays, who would care? It would have barely been noticed, much less won a Lucie. Most folks here would have still been cutting up over on Roadtrips. Get real. Who would be interested in essay’s selected by Haik?

    Harvey can’t hand off the work here to anyone.


    Fall is such a busy and beautiful time.
    Many pictures to be made.
    Many leaves to rake.
    Many fish to be caught.
    Great ribs from Anthonys One-Stop

    A little treat for you.

    No time for small talk while the fire is BURNing!!!

  • I don’t know the protocol: if there is “one comment per person” -rule in essays, where am I able to comment more? In dialogue, yes, but in what thread?

  • Petri, in this tread! In fact, whatever is the latest thing. Whatever DAH starts a new thread with quickly veers off into whatever folks want to chat about. :)

  • “Lawsuit waiting to happen.”
    ( made me laugh ..thank u..)

    “Harvey has too much to lose.”
    ( nahhh.. he is broke? )

    big hug

  • I don’t know the protocol: if there is “one comment per person” -rule in essays, where am I able to comment more? In dialogue, yes, but in what thread?
    usually the latest..the current,… mot its the “cutouts”.. prior to this was the “time out”…
    or follow Jim..:)
    big hug

  • Jim,

    sure he could as long as we didnt know. I mean it is a business and we could easily bring up something like a network organizational structure as an analogy. As an example, did you know BMW doesn’t make BMW cars? BMW lends its name, takes care of marketing and distribution. But who MAKES those expensive cars? In the case of BMW X3, it was not BMW but actually engineered and assembled by Magna International in Austria. Magna also manufactured the 4-Matic Mercedes E Class derivatives, and even Saab 9-3. Now, replace BMW, Merc or Saab with Magna’s name. Magna X3, Magna E class, Magna 9-3. Would people buy those cars for those prices? Um, not likely. But they pay for them because they simply don’t really know. And they pay for them because they are well made. So back to Burn. If people didnt know that it was not DAH choosing, or if the content was still good (save some hiccups like the latest essay) it wouldn’t matter. Much like BMW DAH is providing the name, and that feeds into marketing as well. He is providing the product, at a competitive price, with good distribution – how much better can you get than free and easy access to good material?

  • “mot”????
    and i thought i wrote “now”..
    i need to quit thinking of “mota”..
    someone said “spanish gangsta rap”?

  • I’m not sure Burn knows what it is anymore. Started out to showcase the work of emerging photographers. With the current essay, it seems DAH has moved on to trying to be “cool” and “edgy” and, well, silly.

  • Jim. Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?

  • John, that’s not the point. There are serious “emerging” photographers who really need exposure here. But Harvey seems to have gone off on some weird tangent.

  • Seriously, as a result of the Blues,Booze and BBQ essay, I bought the book. That’s the kind of exposure photographers need, not Harvey’s trying to be different.

  • Welcome Petri,

    Comment in dialogue right here where you are….in the most recent topic/thread/conversation/party room….

    You are in the right place! Enjoy and converse at will!

    good light all,

  • Jim, I could imagine very well that an ad company could do something with this kind of pictures, so the exposure for this photographer is justified, simply on a different level, for a different purpose.. and even if not, as much as you liked the other essay there’s people out which like this one, what’s wrong with that?

    About Circus and too much to lose: if it doesn’t work out, where’s the problem? Same with Burn, if it folds tomorrow, where’s the problem? There’s nothing set in stone, no commitment besides Harvey’s and Anton’s, so if it’s ok for them, where’s the problem?

  • No problem at all, Eva, it’s just time and Harvey has it in abundance.

  • There is nothing wrong with being silly and giving humour into pictures, but is the sillyness somehow photographicly interesting in this newest essay?

  • Jim, re: if anyone but DAH “..had started a magazine of exactly the same name and exactly the same format and published exactly the same essays, who would care” That sounds really dismissive of the content and fiber of burn. What are you saying?

  • Oh, thanks for welcoming me! I have been lurking here all the time. I am just a man with few words so it took me time to actually write something… :)

  • john gladdy
    November 21, 2009 at 10:32 am
    Jim. Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?

    nothing to add…except from lighten up..
    big hug

  • Jim, I guess it’s none of our business what anybody wants to do with the own (much or little) time, don’t you think?

  • I’m not being dismissive of the content. I’m just pointing out that the content would have probably not been widely noticed without it being DAH picking the content, even if it was exactly the same content. Harvey can never move away from his very direct involvement in this website. If this website succeeds, it will be directly because of DAH’s star power among photographers. It all hangs on DAH.

  • eva, we can certainly have an opinion. These threads are primarily opinion (and youtube videos).

  • Such “photography” as this essay “everyday” doesn’t have a great value even in a family album. Is it art? Is it a document of someone’s life? Is it for a long memory? Everythink is subjektive, but good photography is good photography, while shallow silly photography is shallow silly photography. For some shallow guys it’s maybe a fun to create such “essays”, but nothing more… Unfortunately, nowadays internet is full of such pictures and “concepts”… because today so many people mistakenly think that photography is a very easy form of art and self-expression. Maybe it’s one of the “cleanest” forms of art, but for sure, in order to achieve a decent, effective and timeless result it’s one of the most difficult and demanding forms of art. Untalented people don’t even want to think about this and are very desperate to express themselves and to become famous, which otherways, in other areas, would be impossible for them even to have a try. Nothing personal at all – nowadays this is a world wide problem.

  • Jim, of course, I simply think that stating the proper opinion just once could be enough ;)

    Outta here, have a nice weekend all..

  • I wonder if the “everyday” essay might be a new version of vernacular photography that gains respect with the passing of time and is emulated by serious photographers today. Just wondering… :)

  • Eva, what is a “proper opinion?” One you agree with? That’s funny.

  • we need to find a way to make Burn more collaborative behind the scenes.

    All in David’s hands. He knows many of us are ready to help and proposed to do so a zillion times before, here on BURN or in person, when the man was in (our) town. All for making BURN collaboration, not plantation…..

  • Funny language the English one, that’s right, Jim, by ‘proper’ I meant ‘eigen’, according to, ‘own’ would probably the more appropriate word:

  • On the topic at hand about the current essay …

    It seems that “Everyday” is more whimsical and less serious than the types of essays burn has been publishing … to see it up here on burn when there are oh so many young (and older) emerging photographers trying to share serious stories, lives … make a difference, gain a purpose (ad infinitum motivations…) seems In this sense, I agree with Jim, everyday things, has been done a million times, and is a rudimentary standard for all beginning photojournalism courses … I want to push as well on the point (and perhaps to further it) on DAH’s celebrity and how that changes the Essay completely … because this essay is published on the Burn Website by none other than DAH, well, it necessarily imbues upon it a merit that might not necessarily have otherwise … all I can ask to issultrate the point is:

    if you came across this essay without the assumed endorsement of DAH, would it have the same power?

    But regardless of these points and of course the relativity of them all, I think this essay is exactly what Burn is about and where the future of photography is going; things out of the ordinary, that don’t necessarily fit the mold yet are drawn from it. Different is good albeit uncomfortable and hard to understand, and tastes aside, I believe it is clear that something like this (and it’s intended consequences) overall benefits the community.

  • Jim, maybe I’m not following, or maybe the perspective that success is invariably married to star power is too distressing to process right now. You could be right; I hope you are wrong.

    But that is neither here nor there, because Circus can benefit from association with David’s name without David micromanaging it.

    I find this kind of talk gross. I’ll stop.

  • The current essay has the same look as advertising photos to me. Perhaps pitching toothpaste or shaving creme.

  • BURN has had it’s fair share of serious, heady projects displayed. A shot of whimsy
    is good for the soul. Tom Chambers, Improbable Dreams comes to mind.

    There is nothing wrong with concept photography. Pitching toothpaste can make some
    good pocket change. If it’s clever and well executed we should acknowlege that here,
    just as we do with the more “serious” pieces put before us.

  • Hey Erica,

    i sent you an e-mail about a week ago … i have a question of you … if you don’t mind too much perhaps you can shoot me an e-mail at:

    at your convenience, of course.


  • veers off into whatever folks want to chat about

    Lately we were ONLY chatting you out of off your witty comments.
    Jim, you are a piece of undiscovered art, a true balance breaker, a real character that KNOWs how to tickle the public nerve. I applaud you for that – really. You do have a talent.

    Welcome. You are also a peeser. Welcome !!! :)

    Hi Gracie

  • a civilian-mass audience

    “…While the FIRE is BURNing ”

    “Killing an idea is always easy, to keep it growing and evolving is hard work.”

    ” where to search for talents, if not between youths?”

    “I want something real and unabashedly wild…bold but not reckless…pushing boundaries…testing strengths and weaknesses… allow ourselves to go for the ride.”

    “…inspiring from an early age, brilliant.”

    “…spend your time giving others what they need, and what you need will just happen.”

    “…I think that the future of photojournalism is going to be fantastic and I stand amazed at what I see young photographer’s doing…”

    “…Burn to me it’s a constant source of inspiration, a never-ending seminar, a non stopping workshop, a million and one pages book, a window to the world and finally a beautiful group of new friends…”

    “…The world goes around because there’s some people not having their hearts in the same place as their heads and still manage to stay positive…”

    “…I keep telling myself that a chance is sometimes all someone needs…”

    “…I’ll be happy to meet you all…”

    “…circus sounds like a very clever and wonderful idea to me… if i can help in anyway…”

    “… Burn is the future; this is history … dissemination, nurturing, support, criticisms, collectivism and individualism …”

    “…Only those who tried, know if it worked out.”

    “…Let’s not let fear… crush dreams and aspirations before they’ve even had a chance to flower.”

    “… Great idea!! Having a whole community of photographers from 2 years to 99…amazing. What a present for the 1st anniversary…”

    “… circus is definetly a bad ass kool idea”

    “…So is burn…giving birth to Circus.”

    “…Together we can pull this off. So let’s figure out how to share our diverse and complimentary gifts with youngsters across the globe.”

    “… the power of the photograph, and the power of a single person to make a positive change in someones life…”

    “… Asking ourselves questions about the nature and function of photography is relevant now more than ever.”

    “…It would be very valuable and precious work for each other
    I’m with you!”

    “…Circus is a brilliant idea… Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.”

    “… kids …are independent creative thinkers …”

    “…Who is running the site here? DAH and Anton.”

    “… That mentality is a big reason that an online magazine like Circus would be worthwhile.”

    “…Great idea. Kids are cool photographers.”

    “…there is a WIDE spectrum of issues here”

    “… there is a bunch of kids taking pictures of their life at “the Building” here in Penh…”

    “… Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?”

    “…VIVA CIRCUS………..
    THOSE KIDS…they have a lot to teach…us..
    all of us……….”

    “… Circus is a crazy good idea…”

    “…in order to achieve a decent, effective and timeless result it’s one of the most difficult and demanding forms of art…”

    “… what if we had to censor our work for the masses..”

    “… people should be careful about what they say and how they act in an online forum since you never know who may be reading ”

    “…“comparing the bokeh of various lenses on close objects”. :-)

    “… There is nothing wrong with being silly and giving humour into pictures”

    “…Burn is a great idea…circus is a great idea too…”

    “… I’m intrigued”


    “…I agree. Let’s burn the circus”

    “…I’m with ya on that one. Count me in.”

    “I think the entire idea sounds great… There are only 24 hours in a day.”

    “…Welcome Circus !!!Brilliant idea – David Alan Harvey – you are genius.”

    “…I think the Circus magazine idea is good as long as Burn can keep on Burning with the same speed as it has.”

    “…If there is anything I can help with long distance, let me know.”

    “… changes in technology, the speed at which they change and the ‘oh my god’ factor are astounding.”

    “… Hopefully Circus can inspire kids…Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.”

    “…I have no doubt that young contributors to Circus will produce some strong content”

    “…CIRCUS is perfect!…it was one of those dreams that is more than a dream…”

    “…it’s a fun experiment with some like-minded, enthusiastic people”

    “…the dark alleys … here and more creativity awaits..”

    “….everybody needs to loosen up, shed the layers, and work with childlike wonder and naivete …nobody does it better than a child, but the rest of us can at least pretend to pretend…”

    your Civilian :)))

    We will succeed …

  • Fine words. But the devil is in the details.

  • Hmmm…let me see if I’ve finally got this critiquing photography thing right…

    (serious, moody, touching, heart-rending shots of poverty, war, famine, hardship)
    Why are we still shooting these things? what does the photographer hope to achieve, it’s all been done a hundred billion thousand times before, by people even better at their craft, and it still doesn’t make a difference. People are tired of seeing this same gloomy story every day, it’s not going to change anything, why waste our electrons on storing it? I don’t want to see this, I’ve seen it before, let’s see something different.

    (essay with manipulated/staged/artistic interpretations of reality)
    what is this crap?? it’s not photography! it’s not real! where are the starving, poor, homeless people? why are we wasting time taking pictures of imaginary made up scenarios when people are starving all over the world? This isn’t even photography, it’s not representing real life….I could never find a girl hanging by her heels on a stick in a formal gown in the middle of a field with an incredible sunrise in the background, why would the “photographer” – and I call them that loosely, bother to make this image?

    (essay of hometown scenes of no particular significance)
    These are nice, but don’t they belong on the photographers flikr feed? I mean, they aren’t about anything – just a few snapshots of their real world, and they aren’t even very well lit or composed. Why shoot this stuff anyway? Who cares what your main street looks like at mid-day when there are no people around? Go shoot something to make a difference, dammit!

    (essay of social and cultural significance, a call to action)
    who does this photographer think he is? This story has been done forever, and nothing changes. Why bother? maybe the photog cares, but everyone else has seen it so many times that they are numb and wouldn’t notice it if you whacked them upside the head with a hardbound copy of the unedited 200 pages. We need something new and fresh, why does any photographer who hopes to make a name for themselves photograph the same tired scenes?

    (essay of daily life, purposely whimsical)
    My god, here we go. This isn’t even photography, who cares that the scene is perfectly lit and composed, and the style is entirely consistent through the whole essay, and ok, the angle out of the dishwasher is different, but c’mon, it doesn’t mean anything, why should we waste our time on it, the photog admits he isn’t even a professional anyway, he’s middle aged and holds down a “day” job and only photographs when he can….he has no business being seen on a site dedicated to serious, young photographers who are shooting things that will make a difference in the world, real social change….why waste the pixels that they could have on this…even though it’s something unique and original and different, it’s not “serious” photography…

    just sayin’

    good light, all.

  • Oh, and….

    Gracie, you didn’t even say hi to me. I’m crushed.


  • a civilian-mass audience


    “…the devil is in the details” and the cold beer in the fridge …

    VIVA…See ya soon …BURN what a CIRCUS !!!

  • Andrew, you may be onto something. We’ve gone past Post Modern to Post Photography.

  • Interesting. Evidently, WP strips any characters surrounded by angled brackets <

    My post above was prefaced with: (tongue firmly in cheek) only angled brackets instead of parenthesis.

    and ended with: (snippy sarcastic mode off)

    Please put those in there as you read :)


  • Well Andrew, you make good points but I don’t think you need to be so wordy. Without any objective criteria for critiquing photographs, it all pretty much boils down to the old Iggy observation that “it would mean so much to me, if you would only be like me.”

  • Brother Bob! somebody said I was wordy! :)

    Just (trying) pointing out the “just can’t win” approach that sometimes gets taken….


    Good quote, Michael :)


  • andrew you forgot pornography

  • As for CIRCUS, I think it is an interesting idea, but I have to agree with Jim; I don’t really see how this works out in the long run, except maybe as a one off, and I am assuming that DAH is not interested in starting something and then just dropping it. First, there are the legal issues involved, which means that you will have to get the parents involved. Second, the parents will want to make sure that Junior gets his/her picture into CIRCUS, so the lobbying will be intense; if Anton and DAH can’t get through all the piles of stuff in their email now, it’s going to be nothing compared to what happens when Mr. and Mrs. Smith and all the other Mr. and Mrs. Smiths deluge their inboxes demanding to know what’s going on with Junior’s picture. And if you think parents are going to be big about Junior’s picture not being in CIRCUS then you’ve never been to a Little League game. It will be ugly and it will get ugly very quickly, I think. If you involve the schools, then you will have to meet their requirements vis-a-vis outside programming, which will usually include some kind of insurance and a waiver that relieves the schools of any responsibility should something go wrong with the program. And then there’s the problem of the kids themselves. CIRCUS will not get a representative sample of kids’ work. Photography is expensive, so the kids who can participate will, almost by definition, be those kids whose parents can afford the cameras. This means leaving out poor, disadvantaged, and usually minority kids. It is possible to create CIRCUS without them, of course, but just as sure as I am sitting here someone looking at CIRCUS’ premiere will wonder how come there aren’t more black/Mexican/Puerto Rican/Turkish/Albanian/Roma/Native American/First Nations/you name the minority of your choice kids’ work published in the thing. I just don’t see how two guys who are already stretching their available times to the limit can pull something like this off, no matter how much strong coffee they drink. Anyway, that’s my two cents.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    and MR.HARVEY won’t have time to come to his Greek home …for ouzo and souvlakia…
    oime… and the kids with no camera…and there will be no Civilian wannabe …dyslexic kid…oime

    and I need all the BURNIANS to focus …deadline …I am in…
    Focus…focus…I worked very hard today for the above CUTOUTS…
    deadline …WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!

    p.s My one euro.

  • Thomas B just wrote under his essay; “It is fun, I can express myself and I am open to learn. ”

    thomas B – you have a wonderful attitude and have embraced the critical essence of creation.

    vasilios – I didn’t get your email…will write you now to make sure you have the right contact..

    andrew b – yep, that’s the dark side, the little voice that can squelch the joy and drive out of each of us if we take it to heart.

  • Can I ASK a QUESTION to anyone here who might be able to advise me.

    I’ve been interested in taking photograph’s at night and in very dim light for as long as I’ve been photographing, and as I’ve always used film, and still only have a still camera, the limitations have been those you all know with film and the expense of sensitive film.
    So, now might be the time to look at purchasing a digital camera but remembering my limited budget, below a US$1,000. I just want something that is durable because I often photograph in dirty dusty rough environments. So a camera that offers accurate colour rendition and is quick, I mean by quick in shutter responding to when you press the shutter release. And I have Nikon equipment and all Nikon lense’s so I guess it would have to be a Nikon so I can use the lenses, even though the focal length changes slightly.

    Thanks to anyone who can give me good advise.


  • I’m just not seeing much merit to all this naysaying. Granted, I don’t know much, if anything, about the legal issues, particularly when it comes to countries outside the U.S.. It’s been many years since I studied J-law. From what I remember, there should be no problem publishing kid’s work in the U.S., but of course I remember nothing whatsoever on that particular subject. Do parents really have to okay it? I don’t think so. Does someone know for sure?

    As for Ataky’s points: Is photography expensive? No. No it’s not. That’s a big part of our financial problems, innit? The photo headlining this thread makes that point. Everyone has a digital camera. Fuck, almost every day I see tourists with 5 D Mark II’s and L lenses. And plenty of poor people have digital cameras, in their phones if not otherwise. And anyone who really wants one can get one. It’s not that difficult for any American or a lot of people in the rest of the world to come up with a hundred dollars and the prices are falling. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not recommending it. But in the real world, if the lowest class, most rebellious kid in the ghetto or trailer park really wants a cheap point and shoot, they can buy an eighth and gram it out for a that kind of chump change. It may not be right, but that’s how much of our economy works.

    I’m guessing the folk at burn aren’t limiting this to their surrounding zip codes, but if they were it would be relatively easy to set up that kind of thing in Brooklyn. There are plenty of schools that would happily partner with burn to get their kids involved in something big time like that. And it’s likely those kids would represent immigrants from every major region on earth. Of course the great majority of their work probably wouldn’t be what you might be hoping for. That Hindi kid would be far more likely to photograph her friends at school having a good time or somehow posing than create heart rendering essays about the colorful old ways of their parents or the racist society in which they live.You probably wouldn’t identify the final product as Hindi, African, Turkish, Bangladishi, etc, etc. It would be Brooklyn, or Toulouse, or Niamey, or wherever. I don’t think it’s all that different in most major cities. And if you want to get to kids where hundred dollar cameras really are out of the question, how hard would it be to raise some money to give some cameras? Giving cameras to disadvantaged kids and seeing what they come up with is hardly a new idea. I bet you wouldn’t even have to raise money. burn could have an old camera drive and take care of a village, or a class at a school. I’ve got a few I’d contribute. Who here doesn’t?

    And props to those behind burn, but they’re not the only ones on earth, or even in Williamsburg, who can do the day-to-day work required for on-line magazine. It’s conceivable that they can senior manage one.

    Personally, I am skeptical about the aesthetic resources of 15-and-unders and think high school graduation would be the optimal cutoff point, but I guess if I feel that strongly about it I can start my own on-line magazinem eh. But frankly, I don’t have quite the record of success as the burn folk in these things, so I’m willing to give their way a look.

  • Michael, if a middle school collects canned goods for a local food bank, and I want to shoot a photo of the kids and cans for the newspaper, the school has to check through signed photo releases to be sure every student that will appear in the photo has a release from the parent to be photographed. I cannot photograph any student on the campus that does not have a signed release from their parent. This is a public school.

    This is the atmosphere Circus will exist. As for the other issues, it would be stupid to publish a photo taken by a minor child without a parents written permission. It would be stupid to publish a photo taken by a minor child of another minor child without both parents specific written permission. Is it illegal? Does Harvey want to defend a position that it is legal in court? Many times, perhaps?

    Who needs that kind of trouble? Probably not DAH.

  • peter grant,

    Don’t photograph in a dim light, photograph in a good light. However, if you still decide to do that in a dim light, use a tripod and a normal 400 iso film which is much cheaper than a new DSLR. But if you are really determined to have a DSLR just buy Nikon D3000, 5000, 90, 300s… whatever you can afford and a very good lens- nikkor 35mm f/1.8 And don’t photograph in a dirty dusty rough environments, you don’t need that, believe me, I know:). Or maybe you want to be one more emerging photojournalist?:)). Then just be one, Burn will help you, you are in the right place at the right time:)

  • Hi Anthony.
    Thanks for your advice.
    I’ve been photographing for 15 years now and have used the faster films, sometimesw to good effect but I really want to photograph more in this light. The reason I ask is that 400asa is still to slow and once you start buying 800-1600 it becomes so expensive. Yes,thats exactly what I’ve been doing, besides the tripod, and heres the problem as my interest in photography is people and human culture, so a tripod is to intrusive for that sort of photography to be impulsive.
    I already have a 35-f2 and 50-f1.8 and the lovely 105-f2.8. I guess I can use these len’s just changing the length of the lense.

    Thanks Anthony. I’ll look in to those cameras but still may stick with your advise sticking with fast film.

  • I watched the new essay again today and I dislike it even more now than before.

  • Oh boy Peter,

    Anthony has good points with his suggestions. If low-light work is your thing, then
    you will want to use the Noise Ninja plug-in. It will really help make the grain
    created by high ISO work more pleasing.

    Now think about where digital is heading. The Nikon D3s renders ISO 200 to 12800 and
    100 to 102400 in boost mode!!! That’s ISO 3200 plus 4 stops!!!This technology will filter down to the mid-level cameras in no time.

    Look for a gently used D300 and you will get a great camera that is durable and
    well sealed from the elements.

  • This is just wonderful that Thomas’ work has gotten some folks so
    worked up. Thank you David, Anton and Thomas.

    “…what’s not to love…”

  • WOW. Pomara.

    I’m so naive and ignorant to whats going on. Just as long as I have my F3 and F100 and 2 or 3 lenses then I have been happy. Except in low light which has always been so ellusive to me. I’ve used the Kodak B/W 3200 which could look good but so contrasty and grainy. I’ve used the 800 but too expenseive to use enough and cheap 400 has been the film I’ve been using.
    Such wonderful,advise as my thought process has always been, ‘well, I’ll just wait until something better comes along and cheap enough so I can afford it” , and it sounds like that day is on its way.
    I feel a resurgence coming on as there is so much I want to photograph but for a while, lost my ?, something.

    Thanks so much Pomara. Great advise. You’ve really made my day. Big hug to you. That was easy, wasn’t it!

  • Peter, the game has completely changed. This was shot at ISO 1000, Canon 50D. Grain is not an issue:

  • peter grant, pomara,

    I was just trying to be a bit sarcastic about all this equipment stuff, but it seems I wasn’t sarcastic enough:). As far as I know, Burn has always been beyond those abc questions about “which camera is better”. This place was and probably still is for people who are interested in photography, not the camera equipment… reall photographers almost never talk about cameras. Dpreview is for all those technical questions. However, if you need a good advise on a camera bag, here you can ask your questions, because DAH, from his huge experience shooting around the globe for many decades, knows about bags and their importance a lot… and he likes to talk about them. So do I. And if one is really good, David can even send as a gift one of his bags. They really rock – the best photojournalist bags in the world. One day I will ask him:)) Not now, because I am too shy:)

  • “reall photographers almost never talk about cameras.”

    That’s ridiculous. “Real” photographers for the most part are interested in and talk about equipment when they get together. Yes, I know some photographers are indifferent to equipment, but most take their gear pretty seriously.

  • Anthony,

    Camera gear is not a hot topic here, but I’m
    happy to square someone away if they ask, that
    way we can get back to discussing world peace
    and funny images.

  • …….or whatever happened to so and so’s flickr page

  • Thanks Jim.

  • You are flickering gearheads with high ISOs.
    Next up: Indulge yourself in high frames per second for most serious photographers Mark II

    Stopped down cheers.

  • “I watched the new essay again today and I dislike it even more now than before.”

    I just watched it for the first time and dislike it even more than you do :>))

  • Gear talk :)
    I wish, I could take pictures with my eyes.
    The camera is one factor of a picture. But not the most critical one – it is the eye, the mind.

  • I think I now realized what does the newest essay look and feel like. It’s like what teenagers do: they take their small digital pocket cameras (or mobile phones) into their hands and take pictures of themselfs with funny faces. The newest essay is like that, but with a “story” and camera was in tripod. I fail to see the beauty of this combination. I am definitely not a serious person, but in photography, I want and need to please the visual and artistic side of me as well. Unfortunately, I don’t get anything out of this “point the camera in your face and make a funny face” -style. Doesn’t it anymore matter HOW things are done? Does it only matter WHAT is done? Isn’t it possible to do a funny story somehow “photographicly seriously”?

    Well, if I didn’t like this essay a bit, I guess the problem is partly in my self. I have been super bored at photographs for the last 6 months. I love taking pictures, but I am bored at seeing pictures…pretty cool combination :D So bored that I also decided to start taking autoportraits in everyday situations about two weeks ago…and I hate taking autoportraits! :D Here I’m writing this comment –>

  • Jim, I appreciate your professional experience and don’t mean to be argumentative, but I can’t help but note that if I click on your name I see pictures of children–semi-nude children at that. Did you publish those in your newspaper as well as on the web? I don’t doubt that times have changed in many ways, but newspapers have always published pics of kids in shorts or bathing suits splashing around in water. Did you get their parents to sign releases? Do you really get that much flack for publishing what-used-to-be-typical small town newspaper photos? I’m not saying you don’t. Just curious.

    My understanding is that, in the U.S. at least, we can photograph people in public spaces and publish their photos as long as they’re not used in connection with advertising. I don’t see why it would be any different for a minor publishing a photograph of another minor than it is for an adult to publish a photograph of a minor. Of course the rules are different for non-public spaces. Schools and such. And perhaps there are gray areas? What if a child takes a picture of another child in the house of a third? Is that considered a public space? In not, who would need to sign a release?

    The fact is that kids are taking pictures of each other and publishing them all over the internet. And kids doing work in school photography classes, school papers and yearbooks are taking and publishing pictures of their classmates without any kind of release. Of course there are 10’s of thousands of schools with virtually just as many different rules and regulations, but I don’t see that as an insurmountable obstacle. I’m actually more in agreement with Imants that school bureaucracies are normally best when circumvented, but as a practical matter I know that some schools would love to work with a project like Circus.

    Whatever. I trust the editors would be well aware of the legal issues and take due care, though I wouldn’t be all that surprised to find that you are right and it would all be too limiting and burdensome to make the project worthwhile. I guess we’ll see.

    Regarding gear, I thought you all used Leica rangefinders. Just kidding. I think for most, gear is interesting in the same way that power tools are interesting to craftspeople. Which tool you use depends on the job at hand. Or you just have to work with what you have and make the best of it. Either way, it’s mostly an internal dialogue, though not exclusively. For example, I’ve read that the new hi-end Canon gets stunning detail where the eye sees nothing but shadow. I’m curious to see what people do with that. In ten years, shadow in photography may be a quaint historical curiosity, meh.

  • In some cases it is not the kids posting that is the problem, I am not willing put my teaching career on the line for the sake of a couple of kids photos. Too many of our bureaucrats put peoples lives on hold while they look into a “maybe” or a “allegation”

    “shadow in photography may be a quaint historical curiosity”……. not as long as darkness still exists in what we see out there.

  • a bit boring to talk about equipment vs photograph issue… people try to divide things into camps, but it is much like automatically attributed stigmas …
    equipment is important, for pleasure and/or for the quality (“the look”) of the photograph… and theres nothing wrong about loving cameras, and it doesnt necessarily mean that such a person is a geek or is not interested (or knowledgeable) in photography itself… lets say, from my experience, i see as much nonesense stuff from geeks of equipment as from those who think that equipment is not important.

    we should say: equipment is a tool, an important one. and anyway, whatever it is, it doesnt make automatic good photograph, just as much as anti-equipment mantra doesnt make automatic masterpiece.

    BTW … as for bags, any experience with half photo half daypack bags… something like NationalGeographic series ? i will check it in the shop as to the fit, but any one can say about durability and wear ? and also about accessing comfort once u really use it while trekking etc (not only checking in shop)… ??? or any other advise ?

  • Michael, I understand very well the legal aspects of my job. If a photo I publish needs to be released, I can assure you I have the release on file. But there is a difference when you have children shooting photos of children…or anything for that matter…if you plan to use the photos on a kids’s version of Burn (Circus, whatever).

    You don’t just have an adult with photos he shot in a public place. You have parents (perhaps warring, divorced parents) with the legal responsibility for their child who shot the photo, you have the child, you have the child pictured in the photos with their parents who have legal (and personal) responsibility for them. And you have an atmosphere (especially in the US) that considers everyone with a camera a potential pervert and child molester.

    As for the schools, children can be (and are routinely) punished or even suspended for photos that they appear in that get posted on the web, even if they were not shot at school and have nothing at all to do with school, if the school considers those photos “inappropriate.” Students even bully other students by pointing out such photos to school teachers or principals to get their targets punished or suspended.

    Getting yourself as a publisher wrapped up in all the huge legal morass of dealing with kids in print is a major decision. And Harvey is trying to do all this stuff on a shoe-string, which I would guess would preclude a good lawyer.

  • Vic I use one of these initially put together by your fellow countrymen

  • Never liked backpacks. Inconvenient to use. Always been Domke bags of one size or another if I’m using a bag. The last several years I’ve used one of the belt systems instead of a bag to keep the weight off my shoulder and neck. Carry three Nikons around your neck and a bag on your shoulder for 30 years and it takes a toll. :)

  • Jim, I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t know your job. I’m asking these questions because I presume you do.

  • thanks imants… ok… i see this is a full series, cool, will check it in the shop, i hope they have those models too.
    have u carried an attached tripod to this bag ? du think it makes sense, i mean in terms of comfort on long walks and climbs etc… it looks good on picture when the tripod is there… a small one, manftrotto 190pro-something with ball head on it…

  • JIM….

    the advantage of a small backpack is that one can be fairly unobtrusive… Jim Domke was just behind me at Mizzou J-school and his original point was to create a bag that did not scream PHOTOGRAPHER when he and the other photogs at his paper created the bag…..i was given an early model to test and just loved it…well, the boy was so successful with his bags that he gave up any serious attempt at photography after he left the Philadelphia Inquirer…unfortunately he created such a strong brand that his bags now do the opposite of is original intention…internationally Domke bags do now say “camera in here, steal me”…

    now now Jim…do you really think i would publish a magazine with photographs taken by children that would even come close to running any kind of risk either legally or morally or ethically ? we will work directly with organized programs and schools that are set up to do the various “kids with cameras” that are set up all over the world and have been doing so for the last 30 years or so….every teacher and parent that i have spoken with about this only gives me a big smile…sure sure children must be protected…i am a parent Jim..please give me SOME credit as both a parent and responsible editor…and also remember that i was a very passionate photographer myself from age 12 on…whatever happens with CIRCUS will be intended as a creative outlet for the very creative….after all unlocking the “child in us” is my main mission with adult photographers….i think we can do it with style , aplomb and way way within the boundaries of good taste and with child safety as the number one goal….hmmmm, what in the world were you like as a kid?? trying trying to imagine…smiling Jim, smiling….

    cheers, david

  • victor,
    I have a crumpler “Farmer’s double L”. It has room for camera gear in the lower part and for a laptop or other stuff in the upper part. Both parts may be reached separately.
    One time I used it on a business trip, where I also had to photograph the event.
    I had 2 bodies, a 70-200/2.8 and a 17-35/2.8 plus two laptops (private one for the pictures, company one for the work) – it was pretty heavy when carrying in the hand, but once on the back, it was quite easy.
    I looked several times at the NG bags, they look really nice, but I always doubted to have the same amount of stuff in them.

  • O.K. So Circus will be an outlet for existing programs. I’m not sure how that solves the problems of creating a kid safe website that is in any way interesting, but I guess you’ve got it figured out.

  • victor ben tzvi,

    Aesthetically I like all NG bags, but I have non of them and I don’t know about their wear. Personally I shoot only for my personal social projects and with only one camera and one standard lens. So I don’t need a backpacks and I like shoulder bags better. Either I shoot at home or in a foreign country, very often I don’t know where I am going to end up in the late evening… so having a nice camera bag that says there is a nice digital camera in there is the least desired thing… Now I just bought an aesthetically nice and ergonomic, but quite cheap messenger style bag from unknown brand, put padded inserts and that’s it – it works for me better than anythink I had before. Of course, if you climb and carry a bit more camera gear, dedicated camera backpacks probably is the best solution.

  • Oh boy camera bags!!! I am on my second Billingham Hadley, they’re tanks. These things never croak and they are very low profile. If I have to dress up for an assignment (god forbid) it doesn’t stand out.

    Now for the discriminating, save your pesos for a Fogg . By appointment only….pleazzze.

    David I took a Sideline pack to Costa Rica and it was great for hauling, but was a pain to access. I guess there is no perfect solution.

    If you show me yours….. oh never mind.

  • Regarding camera backpacks, I’ve been using this for about four years:

    Camera backpacks are better for the same reasons that regular backpacks are better. They are designed to not hurt your back. I am not a nature photographer, but I am a nature boy and a photographer so I often find myself in some ridiculous cliff climbing situation with a backpack full of heavy camera stuff. It’s great to have the serious back support in those situations. Otherwise 20 pounds of stuff can move around at the worse possible time and strain your back muscles. It’s better for walking around the city all day, too.

    The other thing I like about it is that the cameras are stored in the bottom section and the top is more a regular backpack. In the hundreds of times my pack has been searched since 9/11, only twice have they noticed the bottom section. And after the first time I left it unzipped and a lens bounced down some concrete stairs, I’ve never forgotten to zip it again. But essentially, I like having a compartment where I can carry food, a sweatshirt, or whatever. Not good for easy access though.

    It’s falling apart now, particularly the zippers, so I’m not sure I can vouch for the build quality. I’m hard on it though. Four years is good enough for me. If anyone has a recommendation for a better, similar bag, I’m in the market as well.

  • Three most-used bags: A Domke F-3 (with the red Domke steal-me indicators cut off the end flaps) for walk-arounds. A NG medium backpack (well built, wears well), and a no-brand black canvas messenger bag plus a Tenba insert (the one for the f/pro digital bag).

    The messenger bag/insert has solved a travel dilemma for me. With work travel, I carry-on all my bags, so all I can take is my rolling carry-on and my briefcase. The Tenba insert fits in the main compartment of my briefcase, making it a laptop/camera bag…I take the messenger bag with me folded flat in the suitcase. When I get there, I lift the tenba insert out (they have bottoms) and put it in the messenger bag, giving me a dedicated camera bag.

    gear and bag talk – oh me oh my :)

    Is anyone planning on attending DAH’s Miami workshop in January?

    good light all,

  • $1,000 for a Fogg bag, really? Guess that’s for the Noctilux, eh? Will people really pay that? Just not a fan of the old school leather strap style … looks like you’re going birding in the English countryside. I like the simple Dakine canvas with the insert but not weather proof, and a little too big perhaps, and really do not like brand names visible. Such a pain carrying SLR, first mistake. Still researching …

    Bjarte, I like the cows :))

  • as far as i can tell, no one makes a messenger camera bag with gore-tex interior? A diver’s style interior sealable envelope would be cool I guess but the weight would be too much to lug around.

  • JIM..ALL

    i have not had a chance to read all the comments, but will do so in the morning…i assume there are two primary concerns regarding Circus….

    (1) that i would take effort away from Burn which is indeed a full time job (2) create a potential threat to youngsters on the net..

    i am sure you well know that these were the first two things i considered…

    nothing will change in my efforts with Burn..she is my baby…first of all, i will not do Circus without a very special Circus staff who are completely independent from commitment and sense of responsibility towards Burn will not waiver…

    i have already increased the grant funding for the EPF in 2010 to a $15,000 stipend….

    getting work for photographers here and getting photographers paid for being published on Burn is my primary goal right along with a variety of efforts to make Burn work better all of us…

    just last week i tried (in vain) to lock down assignments for Burn photographers to shoot a video/still combo for one of the largest ad agencies in the world…it did not work out this time, but the important thing is that the agency even considered Burn at all as a potential resource…..frankly, i just could not move fast enough in this came at me totally by surprise and i just could not get enough response from photographers here who were video savvy enough to get this particular commission…in addition, very few responded here who had proof of past video experience AND who had specific ideas for embedding with an American family.. at least, not in the time frame under which i was working…in any case, i tried…and i will keep trying…i do not expect Burn to be a direct agent for photographers published here, but on the other hand i do think that certain kinds of packages may be possible in the future…we will see..

    secondly regarding Circus, the bar for child safety on the net would indeed be set high…all content would be approved by adults who are directly involved with the raising or care of the child photographer…at no point would any form of solicitations be possible to children whose work we published…the comment system we use on Burn would most likely not be possible with Circus….i would certainly start by publishing work from existing programs that are everywhere but have no unified outlet…if we started looking for talented youngsters through Circus itself then we would simply have to employ the very best system available to protect these young photographers…suffice it to say that there are all sorts of magazines publishing content created by children…whatever is the best way, the safest way, is the way that i will go…..before Circus exists at all, this system or systems will be locked down tight to the 100% satisfaction of parents, teachers, etc

    remember, Circus will be a magazine photographed BY young photographers, not OF young photographers…the subject matter will be surely of wide variety and would obviously not contain any more pictures of children than we already publish on Burn..

    now must sleep…Thailand time…

    cheers, david

  • The photographers here at the beginning of careers had better embrace video NOW. Shooting and editing video are just going to be a requirement very, very soon. Harvey had a connection to real work if someone had just had the knowledge and experience. Definitely a real wakeup.

  • JIM..

    agreed…certainly for the purposes of mass communication the combo of video/stills skills will be of great value……to be fair to the photographers here, i posted this potential job here in dialogue comments not quite knowing anywhere else to do it…photographers are not skimming the comments section here for job possibilities, so i am sure very few actually saw the posting…and it was one of those things where i needed answers within hours , not days…the nature of the ad biz i am afraid, not any failing on the part of photographers who may or may not log on Burn regularly and who may indeed be totally qualified…as usual, some of the ones who i know are video qualified, just were not available….


    i have this small, less than a pound empty, rock climbing pack that is now my favorite street shooting bag….so so discreet….and, well, i just never know when i am going to have to start climbing rocks…

  • Tom,

    I just could not resist the Fogg bag thing. It’s just so over the top. What and how you carry is such a personal thing. Over my many years of hauling gear, it’s nice to know I can get a replacement. Just a little constant in this ever changing world.

  • PAUL…

    yes, the Hadley is a great bag, easy to get in and out of, and waterproof to boot…but, i always thought it just looked to nice and too expensive (until worn out) to get me through some areas where i am often trying to minimize myself as a target….

  • Regarding the latest essay is interesting, but to me it is too over the top. I know it is a visual comedy parodying and poking fun at everyday life; but I think the “over the top-ness” is a type of crutch. I’m sure that David knew it would be a polarising essay; you’d either love it or hate it!

    I can imagine a similar themed essay done by a photographic Ricky Gervais. A subtle, embarrassing essay similar to a scene from “The Office” (UK version). An essay that is sooo cringe-making that it makes your toes curl! But that is asking a lot I suppose.

    I watched Gervais on the Letterman Show the other night and you just knew Gervais was “playing” with Letterman. You could sense Gervais could have ripped Letterman to bits any time he wanted. Poor old Ricky had to dumb down his comedy to match the sycophantic Letterman audience!

    However; any essay that makes you think has got to be good. And I also admire anyone who can do a series of self-portraits; I just couldn’t do it!

  • a civilian-mass audience


    it’s too late to be pessimists !!!
    the World is moving fast…maybe faster than we would like
    together we can try…what the heck we have to lose…
    we have been through births,deaths,jail time,
    parties,suicides,drugs,marriages,first steps,last steps…we have chased tumbleweeds, we saw caws,birds,
    bones,mustaches…we have traveled to India,China,Norway,Russia,Australia…

    I know…when I read about the Circus …my first thought was …what is wrong with MR.HARVEY???
    and I know that he rejected the role of Alexander The Great…aha,sure…what else …
    BUT I said to myself WTF… I am in Heaven…SPACECOWBOY ,please we need you NOWWWWWWWWWWWW
    E. Fitzgerald, L. Armstrong — Cheek to cheek (Heaven)

    P.S video and bags … why not :))) VIVA …dancing

  • a civilian-mass audience

    “… Lighten up, all you Burn-outs! …Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Burn was about expanding the horizons of how we think about and look at photography. And how photography mirrors the human condition…”

    WENDY,CATHY…it’s a ladies night out …We are dancing cheek to cheek.
    show me your BAGS …hihihi…too much dancing …
    I am out

  • CIVI…..remember…we burnians don’t carry bags or baggage…

    We carry treasure chests!


  • Oh David AH, it’s always better to look good than feel good.

  • David, we have to talk serious bags, or seriously talk bags, after the first of the year … have some info for you … and, huh, hadn’t thought about the rock climbing bag … is it a chalk bag? hmmm, you said “pack,” as in backpack? … thought you were the messenger bag dude … interesting … waterproof? manufacturer?

    Have you got your “perfect” bag figured out? We need a prototype :))

  • Tom Hyde, would love to talk bags with you as well….I think I’m always searching for the perfect one…I think I may be on to something with this generic messenger w/ an insert approach…..

    POmara…well….yeah :)


  • Paul O’Mara, it’s good to know there are true connoisseurs out there … now what would the Blue Angels use?


    It’s like it was 3 or 4AM in the morning when you wrote your last lines above. Hmmmm, I wonder where you sent them from, at that ungodly hour (well, it’s actually a very godly one in Bangkok and I am sure you already had your first taste of night stalls street food somewhere along Sukhumvit).

    Are you staying at the same funky and cool looking hotel as you did last year?

  • Hyde, that crap was military issue. Now you know why I’m such a snob about my satchel.

    Ok we’ve gotten all bagged down. Let’s talk trash.

    How about a little slide show

  • I have an old ‘north face’ courier bag. Totally waterproof. Looks like any other courier bag. Been all over the world with me. Attracts no attention at all.

  • HERVE…

    are you in Thailand? Mike Yamashita and Ira Block and i did a Canon sponsored seminar at the Millenium Sukhumvit where i am now…not the funky Dream Hotel where i did the workshop with Nachtwey…by the way, i finally met our Aussie friend Glen Campbell who did some excellent work here in BKK ..Glen is flat out a terrific guy and is already planning to help us with some young aborigines with cameras for Circus….and i may hook up with Anton and his brother who are in Tokyo to discuss Burn biz…i do want to do a couple of days of shooting BKK at least to add to my SE Asia archive, but i will not stay much longer…if you are in BKK now perhaps we could meet?? i have been doing a marathon of activity for the last 6 weeks or so and mostly i just want to go home and sit on my front porch and watch the seagulls fly by and try to figure out what to do with new kittens which should be born any day any case, give me your location and let’s have a cold beer should you be around….


    i have been a fan of the bike messenger bags for awhile..mostly Timbuk2 where you can build your own bag online..the cross strap turns a shoulder bag into almost a backpack and again you have a bag that looks like you are carrying your gym gear and not cameras….i use a Tenba 415 insert which can be dropped into any bag of any style of any manufacturer…but the perfect bag?? laughing…well, the joke on me is always that i use one camera and one lens yet have dozens of bags…crazy, ridiculous, yet true….oh yes Young Tom, the rock climbing backpack i am using in the streets of BKK where we first met is a Black Diamond…Magnum model (pure coincidence)…yea, my beach pickup truck is a Magnum model too (also pure coincidence)…ok, now that is enough brand name dropping to last me for months…


    i think i have enough bags to pass around for this Burn audience…anyone coming to my loft in NYC knows they can go bag shopping right in my apartment….you are welcome to do the same…please visit….

  • Gosh, all you bag freaks need to get a scooter! What kind of bag you carry in your basket only has to be rain resistent and easy to open so you can grab your camera in the blink of an eye. One of the greatest perks of being disabled and using a scooter is ALWAYS having my camera on hand, but never having to carry it myself. Lucky me ;=))



    good point…it is your optimism that makes so many here really look pessimistic over the silliest things…you have your head screwed on straight…we should all take lessons from you…


    speaking of pessimism…to the best of my recollection, you always think my ideas are either bad or doomed..the freedom to have bad ideas along with the good, is freedom at its best…i have never heard of one single person who had good ideas who did not also have the worst ideas in the world…goes with the territory of thinking outside of the norm…by the way, i do not try to be different…i am different..of course the day you stop coming here to tell us all what we did wrong is the day that i know i will have really done the wrong thing…however, i will stand by why don’t you do something constructive and help us out a bit and hook up with one of your local schools and see what you can come up with….as a respected member of your community i am quite sure you could be of great service by initiating or sponsoring a small group of teenagers who might feel so much better about themselves if they were recognized for having done something special with their photographic interests…at least give it a thought…thanks…

    cheers, david

  • DAH…

    The local “gallery hop” this quarter includes an exhibit sponsored by a local art/education group that took 11-15 year olds and paired them with professional/serious amateur photographers who worked with them as mentors…the exhibit is of the children’s resulting work over the next month. The ones I’ve seen published and on the local web sites are quite good and interesting – going to go see the full exhibit this week.

    Going to find out more about the program and see about getting involved…will keep you posted….

    good light,

  • David
    just back from miami where my flick screened in the short film festival.. I met these Nicaraguan filmmakers that did a film called ‘El Ladroncito’ (the little thief – about a 12 year old boy) great flick and now they are trying to raise $ for children for workshops with filmmaking etc… so what a coincidence to read about circus… GREAT idea… do you know Zana, from Born in Brothels? children with cameras is a powerful thing… also wendy ewald comes to mind…. ***

  • Im still ij shock about the last essay being here. Ive not disliked anything on here yet, but that was the first time I was really shocked to see something and sislike it so much. Something that was piinted out in response to Bregulla’s essay over at HCSP was this. check it oput. FAR better.

  • RAFAL…

    you have made your point three times…got it…thanks

  • WENDY…

    Zana is a former student of mine from the Eddie Adams workshop many years ago…she has really made a mark…Wendy a friend as well…yes, yes all these interesting projects…and congrats on your screening…sorry to be so rushed with this note, but my net time is running out…YOU would be one of the most perfect people to be working with me on Circus…will contact you by email…nothing will happen regarding Circus until early is the time to just get organized and figure out who will do what…

    big hugs, cheers, david

  • David in ther southern hemisphere organized has a s not a zed

  • When Circus was first mentioned, the powerful Born into Brothels documentary immediately came to mind, as strange as that sounds. I wondered if someone would bring that up. Providing a showcase for worldwide efforts like this would be about as good as it gets. I had no idea how many programs like Kid with Cameras there are until I just looked … amazing.

    When you are trained to assume the worst, it’s hard work to assume the best … cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.

    LOVE the photo of tor capa nd the second down..
    decent snap of me through our window as well..
    crafty young man.
    great to see you and look forward to seeing you again..

  • “cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.”

    that’s brilliant..

    i can’t wait to see what’s submitted.. and i think the logistics of it can be really easily overcome by working with institutions and groups..

  • g’morning..
    tor capa in nursery.. beate in work..
    maternity is OVER.. time to tuck into it earnest-ly.. or frank-ly..

  • David B

    Thank you. Second down; you mean the ninth one? I’m quite happy with that one as well. Will probably end up in the Daydream station project. All the ones that aren’t intended for anything specific end up there :)

  • David B., that was you? I didn’t recognize you from the front, with clothes, and your feet on the ground. :))
    Sorry, it was THE self portrait … at least the one I, ahem, remember most … okay, this is going downhill fast, logging out …

  • About camera bags

    I have a small lowepro one. I wish it was a bit bigger so I could have room for that flash in there as well. Now it’s just enough for the camera body and a small lens.

    The perfect camera bag must be the kind of bag security people overlooks when you’re entering a concert. I would certainly like one that didn’t scream out CAMERA BAG.

  • bjarte.. much better to work ahead of time and get accredited – then feel free to snap at the whatever,,,

    TOM – ha.
    i showed that photo to my class last year, during their self portrait workshops – bjartes class actually..
    now.. could i have done that in the u.k.?
    not a chance..
    i´d have been slapped in manacles and banged up before you could say ´flasher´..

    bjarte – you could have mentioned.. i have a few bags i rarely use anymore that you could have tried for a while.

  • DavidB, Bjarte …
    great! Sounds like a camera bag meeting on Dec 21!

    sorry guys … I just have to try this. You have no idea! :-)

  • David B

    Accrediting; good advice. Getting access is something I often forget when working just for my own projects.

    No worries about the bags, I rarely use my flash anyways, so the bag is usually good enough for me. I hope I can come up to Bergen again soon. Maybe january or february. I’ll keep myself updated on concerts happening up there.

  • “cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.”

    u da man..:)

  • david alan harvey,

    Oh, don’t tease me David :). I have lived in NYC five years ago, but now I have tried to get the US visa twice and no success… haven’t violated any law… the problem is my single status and no “proper” job:), once I mentioned I was an independent photographer… now visa “free” for my country, but still no entry… I absolutely love living in NYC, but it seems I will never be able to come back… my fate I guess. The closest I can get to New York is Canada, but I know nothing about living in Toronto and I have no recourses for my experiments in expensive West countries anymore… I can wander around China or Thailand for months though. Thanks David for your open heart. If life ever brings you to Lithuania my door is always open for you as well.

  • “Getting access is something I often forget when working just for my own projects.”

    bjarte – access is more than half the job.. logistics is a quarter.. and then photographing might be the bit left over :ø)

    gotta run now..
    keep on all.. nearly a fresh year to rise to.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Please, don’t forget to submit…keep BURNing …
    my glass…hmmm…I don’t have a glass I have a bottle
    and it’s always full…

    P.S LASSAL, HAIK,…BURNIANS…WE are different BUT the same …
    KATIE FONSECA where are u street fighter ??? your everyday man/wo is here ..
    Ok,ANTHONY, maybe you can marry Panos… if this doesn’t work ,you can always come south
    to Grecoland !!!

  • “.now why don’t you do something constructive and help us out a bit and hook up with one of your local schools and see what you can come up with….”

    I have a hard enough time getting the schools to sort how who I can or can’t photograph in the school play, much less getting them interested in putting photos on the web! And now a city in the next counties school district’s private police force just had one of its officers shoot and kill a guy on the street corner. Great. Did you know that a lot of public school districts have their own private police force? Armed officers roaming the halls? You think I’m cynical? Damn right.

  • a civilian-mass audience,

    “maybe you can marry Panos…” – I have heard some people do such things, but I am not shure if I am ready for such kind of adventures:), and neither I know Panos, nor Panos knows anythink about me:)). Any way, thanks for your respond and invitation to Grecoland :). You can allways come to Vilnius as well, just wait a couple of weeks until swine flu is gone from Lithuania :)).

  • Maybe Riga may be of greater interest ………………

  • Rafal: The Gatepin essay is something very different, surely, because it isn’t comedy.

    Pomara: Liked your Coosa River thing – over too quickly.

  • Mark, comedy implies it was funny. Did you find this funny?

  • ok yall…
    celebrity saga part III..
    just finished a TV interview for the national greek circuit…
    A super hot girl ( hostess ) , let me talk all ABOUT BURN..
    and the upcoming CIRCUS HALF FULL GLASS…
    I invited of course the whole country to log in on our
    dysfunctional family affairs…
    All plz keep fighting and debating..
    do not disappoint me..
    i told “them” ALL about “YOU”..
    viva DAH…now BURN is officially in the greek media…
    big hug..

  • …also big hug and HAPPY BIRTHDAY for my little sisters’ birthday today..
    happy birthday
    happy birthday
    happy birthday…

  • Fortunately Mark W this is an ongoing project. Lots more to do before I can put this to bed. I’ve done all of the “easy” work. Thanks for your thoughts

  • here’s one example of a photography program teaming up with a public Elementary School:

    The Syracuse University College of Visual and Performing Arts received a Burton Blatt Institute Innovation Grant to fund a year long photography residency Literacy, Community and Photography in Ed Smith Elementary School in Syracuse, New York, a pioneer school for inclusive education.

    As an arts education program, Literacy, Community and Photography is designed to encourage children to explore their worlds as they photograph scenes from their lives, and then use these images as catalysts for verbal and written expression.

    Some of the kid’s work here at


  • Yep, none in Texas. What an opportunity …

  • are you in Thailand?
    Not yet, David (just got back from France). Flying out there after New year’s.

    BTW, Mike Yamashita is a very good friend of my own very good friend Chris Burt. About thai connections, given how long you have worked in the region, I suppose you know that old hand “Shrimp” too. I know he has been featured in some of the “one day in thailand’ books. This guy goes wayyyy back…

    Have a cold one on me, make it 2, and someday I am sure we will meet there too. Some of my most cherished memories of times there are whole nights spent sitting, drinking talking and watching the world go by right besides us until dawn comes (at least!), with the right friends.

  • Cool, Lexington is on that map…

  • David B

    You should give me advices every day. I can’t get enough.

    Now just a coup of coffee and Marissa Nadler…

    …and then back to writing a project description. Need to get support for the exhibition next year. Deadline closing in. December 1st.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    What not to Love
    deadline is close
    the game is on

  • It’s a good feeling when deadlines are closing in. It’s often a key to motivation.

  • So then I hope everybody is REALLY MOTIVATED now: deadline is closing in!!!

  • A little haiku or two dedicated to deadlines:

    Deadline closing in
    Not sure of what I’ll produce
    Pressure all around

    Click goes the Canon
    Pictures flying left and right
    Not one worth a damn

    Feel free to share your own.

  • Another deadline for Burnians (I just received this in my inbox):

    Atlanta Celebrates Photography Public Art 2010 – Request for Proposals. “There’s no entry fee, a $12,000 budget, and proposals are due on January 15th, 2010.”

  • I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. Douglas Adams (1952-2001)

  • Truer words were never spoken…

  • camera bags? I use the black ones I get down at the Gulf station. The plastic is nice and sturdy and if you need to store them you can stuff them into your sleeves, where they are also good for insulation on a winter’s day.

  • Deadlines keep flowing
    They rush at me like water
    Please don’t let me drown

  • I’ve been stuck behind the laptop writing over the last few days and whilst doing so I’ve been mulling over the opinions on the “Everyday” essay. As soon as I saw it I knew it was going to be a polarising one, but it got me thinking about why so many photographers (in general) have such definite parameters between like and hate (statements like utter garbage etc).

    I often wonder whether these photographers have the same views on music for example? Whether they only play one style of music and nothing else, read only one type of book, watch only one type of movie? For example; I love the Sex Pistols, but I could never play only punk on my stereo.

    It just seems to me that many photographers (again; a generalisation) seem to be less tolerant towards different styles of photography than other artistic mediums.

    The “Everyday” essay didn’t really do it for me, but I don’t “hate” it; it’s just different. However I do appreciate the fact that it has given me food for thought.

    Do I like every essay I see on Burn? Far from it. One the aspect I like the most about Burn is that it has exposed me to, and opened my eyes to, many different styles of photography.


  • Ross,

    You bring up some good points. There are alot of movies and music that I don’t like, but I can appreciate the creativity and effort behind them. That’s kinda where I am with the Everyday story. It’s not my style, and I definitely have some ideas on how I would approach that subject matter differently, but I appreciate it for what it is.

  • Brian;

    I’ve been shooting the Indie music scene for about 10 months. Mostly the heavy meatal scene, with a bit of punk thrown in too. I’m not really into metal, but I do appreciate their musical ability. Especially because I love playing guitar, but am pretty useless at it! :-)

    One night I was absolutely blown away by a 3 piece high school metal band. They were playing real hard-out metal but right in the middle of one song they did a bridge of VERY slick jazz before seemlessly slipping back into the metal! They were all aged about 17 or 18 but had obviously been exposing themselves to many different musical genres.


  • I’m a music nut. I woulda loved to hear that.

  • Ross Nolly,

    Since when a weak concept, idea and an average attempt has become a style of photography? OK, I love jazz, but it doesn’t necessary mean that I would listen to it if just someone random, without any clue about music in general, started to imitate jazz by writing this music and playing sax. As for photography, I try to be as open minded as I can, but if I see and think it’s bad or average I just don’t care. We can get food for thoughts from anything, but when we see others work we have our criteria, which is based on many personal factors. I think praising an average work can do a great harm for a starting photographer as well. I think Burn was supposed to be and still is, a very serious place curated by one of the top photographers in the world, and I am a bit suspicious about featuring obviously weak attempts. Of course, some people might like it, some not, but one still has a right to say if he doesn’t like it at all. However, one might still love the author of the weak essay as a person:)).

  • what anthony said basically.

    there’s lots of photography that i like/dislike.

    e.g – i’m not particularly moved by rankin’s highly commercial portraiture. however he is immensely skilled at what he does, and his work is really obviously a high quality example of its genre.

    the everyday essay.. its not good photography in any way to be honest. i feel sorry for the photographer having his work featured in such an inappropriate context, and also for the many other photographers making interesting, challenging work and submitting it here for publication who aren’t getting featured.

    disclaimer: i haven’t submitted an essay to burn so this aint sour grapes!

  • BEN
    you should not feel sorry for Thomas. With his essay he has shown authorship. And that is more difficult to achieve than some other things you might find missing in there. He’ll fill the other gaps easily.

    I think by choosing this essay DAH is really trying – once again – to make a point regarding his view on how important authorship is.

    Remember the chatting when Alejandro Chaskielberg showed his essay? Remember who was chosen for the EPF and by what jury? I am not saying that Thomas would win an EPF with his essay, he himself agrees that there is still a way for him to go. I just ask you to try to see what DAH is trying to show. Over and over again.

    Good night yall … late again.

  • nah, i can’t see it. sorry.

  • I think it’s not fair to say that people who don’t like the “everyday” essay (or any other similiar essay) are lacking a sense of humour or that they are taking things too seriously. Yes, I take photography seriously — super seriously, but it does NOT mean that I do not appreciate anything that is out of genres that I like and prefer. No, I can appreciate any kind of photography if it’s done with good taste and the quality is good. If “having a sense of humour” means that you have to like just about everything, then I am happy to say that I don’t have sense of humour. Good work is good work, bad work is bad work.

    Think of it this way: if you have a camera with self timer, a tripod, and if you have time and will to (over-) act in your own pictures — couldn’t pretty much anyone take similiar pictures to “everyday” quality wise? Or is there some kind of hidden phoographic quality that I just don’t see? Laughing at funny pictures / taking funny pictures — I don’t see that a “photographic” quality. It’s different important kind of quality.

    Now, I’ll go and watch some Monty Python youtube clips just to prove that I have a sense of humour!

  • Ross,

    you are starting off on a VERY wrong premise. Many of the photographers here who disliked the every day essay loved many different styles shown on Burn. Ill use myself as an example. Ive liked most of whats been on Burn, and as you know it has been a very ecclectic offering so far. Evey Day was the first essay I was totally turned off to. Furthermore, Ive had 2 essays of my own work published on Burn, and they were about as different as one could get. So not only do I LIKE a wide range of styles and aesthetics, I SHOOT a wide range of styles. So your premise is totally wrong from the get go.

  • …my English sucks. I tried to say that trying to take funny pictures or laughing at funny pictures is not in my eyes “photographic” quality. It just shows that maybe you have a sense of humour. You need to have tons of other aspects as well to make a good, funny photograph…those normal things that belongs into photography. IMO.

    This is little bit comparable to often heard “You don’t become a good photographer by taking pictures. You become a good photographer by reading and educating yourself!” Yes true, reading and educating helps definitely a lot, but reading and education ALONE is not enough. You also need to know “how to take pictures”.

  • “but reading and education ALONE is not enough. You also need to know “how to take pictures”.”

    NOW you tell me!

  • I think there is beauty in everything, a great word someone used was poignancy. I think there is beauty in our daily lives, some depth, some meaning. There is great beauty in those small moments and actions we do every day. I would love to see an essay that presents me with that beauty, makes me think, makes me REALLY THINK about it, its meaning, significance, shows it to me in an aesthetic that is either beautiful or shocking, but engaging on more than one level. THAT would be a great essay about this topic. That would be a great essay, period. Has this done it? Has this shown me any beauty? Has it shown it to anyone else? Has a guy making funy faces made you reflect and think? On ANY level? It hasnt done that job for me, not in content, not in the aesthetic. I think this is what people are getting at with this essay, it doesnt do what is intended, in fact it mocks the subject, and the viewer. Then again I think I am giving it far too much credit, mocking the viewer would actually demand some thought process in the creation process. A purpose.

  • O.K. The essay sucks. Can we flog another dead horse now?

  • Jim,

    I just had to verbalize my feelings, I had not done that other than in the most general, Jim-esque way, and thats wrong. I couldnt find the words till now to really say what I felt.

  • jim powers tells someone to stop flogging a dead horse. this just gets better.

  • “you are starting off on a VERY wrong premise”

    Well sorry, but I think you are too! My statement was about photographers in general not specifically Burn commentators. But that was probably my mistake for not making my comments clear enough.

    I was using the “Everyday” essay as an example. The last thing I would ever want is for a critique to be less than honest, but I am often surprised by the vehemence of some comments. Remember I didn’t really “get” the essay either. I could imagine some of the images in adverts though.

    As for feeling sorry for the photographer? Well; if you pick the venue you want your work to appear in then there’s nothing to feel sorry for?

    I admire Thomas’ self confidence though because I know I could never do a self portrait series like that!

    Rafal; I remember your first essay on Burn. It was one that didn’t really appeal to me, but I could see merit in it. It also got me thinking. Even though it wasn’t really to my tastes I could never, and would never, call it rubbish! :-)

    But as usual my opinion is just that, an opinion; and as Glenn so succinctly put it once “Opinions are like arseholes, everyone’s got one” :-)


  • Ross

    Does it matter if you are only talking about Burn photographers? We are a subset of a lartger field of photographers and we are numerous enough to provide, statistically speaking, more than a representational sample size of the larger set. As I said Burn has had a wide variety of WOPK (make it a general word that could apply to anything, not just photography). Most of the people who disliked every day liked at least some of the WORK presented here. Hence your premise is that if we don’t like Every day we only like one kind of WORK is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you think of Every day as self portraiture, I liked Patrocia’s essay. if you want to call it a study of every day life I liked Postcards, whatever you want to call this there are example of a similar genre that I and others liked. What ties all of those together is that they were honest and had depth and meaning and you could see the value of them to the photographer. I see none of that here.

  • I dunno, Ben, I think enough people have now said the essay sucks to consider it a done deal.

  • OK, not exactly photography, but those of you with an interest in optics might want to check this out:

    lens bokeh + bar codes = bokodes!

  • Jim,
    Your internet personaltiy sucks. You have been banned too many times from rangefinder forums to consider it as a done deal.
    Mr Pickett Wilson.
    Mr sitemistic
    Mr Jim Powers.

    Your internet personality sucks big time and you shoot squirrels and sprinklers. You have no moral right to be as vocal as you are. You hurt people! I’ve said it once. This is the 2nd iteration. Can’t you be a little less abnormal so we keep calling you Teddy Bear? Please.

  • A bit more… I think some people miss understood what DAH meant by “authorship”. The authorship comes with deep, artistic, quality work. If the authorship is just for itself, then nobody really cares. During the educational process, of course, it’s very important to emphasize authorship, but in the publications the result is much more important than the authorship.

  • Haik intones: “You have no moral right to be as vocal as you are.”


  • Huh what Jim? You read it. You want me to make a poll on your internet qualities and morals to hear other opinions such that you don’t only hear “just your own opinion you are entitled to”. Do you want every single photo of yours disected to pieces here on burn such that you know where the bar is?
    I as a person don’t go bashing anything like you do when I’m unsure I can do better than what I “bash”. More, I don’t bash – I try to explain myself so it does not sound like a brain fart(thanks Rafal for the epic phrase)

    Huh, Jim? Gonna rotf lmao again on me?
    Go on.

  • Haik, you can dissect my poor effort at photography any time you wish. I’m not clear what my ability as a photographer has to to with my comments, though. Does my being a bad photographer preclude my saying nice things about photos, or only negative things about photos? Are we only allowed to comment on photos that are, say, worse than our own?

    Losing your cool, though, as you seem to do, is simply counterproductive. I really don’t care what you say about me or think about my photography. Really.

  • This has gone past the point of ridiculous.

    I no longer have an interest in the “dialogue” here.

    I will still visit to see the work and comment on it.

  • Counterproductive? In what, flogging a dead horse? You used to be provocative and stir conversations – now you just bash. Not only photos but also the whole endeavor. Current and future.

    Pete- is it me? I’ll apologize if you say so. I don’t mean to turn dialogue into an octagon.

  • “Pete- is it me? I’ll apologize if you say so. I don’t mean to turn dialogue into an octagon.”

    But you did, didn’t you?

  • Better me do it once than let you exponentially grow into an anarchist. I’m not cool with that, you are right on that.
    The question was for Pete – you have a pile of others to think about.

  • So your post saved Burn from anarchy? Are you threatening me?

  • Everyone;

    I’m sorry it was my comments that started this all off, it wasn’t my intention and I wasn’t being personal. I thought my original comment was pretty inocuous, but obvoiusly not… There’s no way I want to throw a grenade into the room and then casually walk away.

    Again; my apologies….

  • Ross, the proper response to the essay would have been, “It’s the finest essay I’ve ever seen and it has changed my life forever.”

  • No I m not threatening you in any way, shape or form, implied or direct. I have no interest in that at all. Please do not turn this into that so that you could turn my attention and shut me up.
    My whole point is you hurt photographers and some readers of this site by your comments that have no explanation. And I am trying hard to make my point get to you.

  • Haik, you give me way too much power. If my words “hurt” the photographers whose work has been shown on Burn, they really need to find another line of work. I am the least of their problems.

  • I’m not giving you any power – its not in my liberty. Your power is in not moderated forum as we have here. And you are all over it with one-liners that get worse and worse. Burn for you is like a hunt for pray. I don’t recall a single positive one from you. And it aint that you are playing a “devil’s advocate”. You are simply full of negative about it all.
    Is that “productive”

  • Good on ya Ross always figured the buggers over the ditch a bunch of shit stirrers……….must be all that Six Pistols music or is it that brash, boorish, lazy and more than a little stupid sense of humour. Gotta love it though!!!!

  • Thanks Unka Imants! At last the voice of reason! I’ll just stick with the “little stupid” bit and leave out the humour, at least I know I can live up to that… :-) Mind you I am thinking of jumping on Pete’s bus for a while…

  • Trouble with Pete’s bus most get off at the next stop and you are left all alone chuckin brown eyes at the back and pulling silly faces in front of the safety cam ………

  • By the way one of you lot won the Australian Idol……instant karma

  • Nah, Bob’s in Pete’s bus and I’m just going out for a smoke every other stop. there is company. and cams don’t tape. Can I have the Idol-Titol now for the stink?

    Submit ya’all. Submit. Line of dead is coming. Sooner than brains fart.
    Back on the bus. Enough of Vitamin-N.

    Bring in the crickets.

  • Imants; “instant karma” and then pretty much instant obscurity!! :-)

    Just for you the Sex Pistol’s last performance

  • BEN…

    you are assuming a are assuming that you know what i have in stock, on the back burner, on the front burner, and how in hell could you know what photographers have submitted what??? you my friend have submitted nothing…nothing…you have not been willing to put yourself up for scrutiny have you?? i happen to like your work, have your print hanging on my wall, but your critique often comes from a lofty perch that you have created for yourself..c’mon, put something on the table…fair enough??

  • Just realized the Grand Millennium location, too funny. Nice back alley. It was under construction when I was there … how long ago? really, it’s been that long?

    Hey Chance, is that the building you did that great work in? Asoke and Sukhumvit, one block from the pool hall with elvis.


    geez louise…will all of you guys just chill with one another…too damn much testosterone around here…CIVILIAN where are you? human nature is funny….

    my “line in the sand” is absolutely not criticism , or doubt, or even attack…being lied to, betrayed, or talked about derisively behind my back is my only time for a total cutoff, which has only happened once here on Burn…..anything short of that is fair game as far as i am concerned…so whatever gets said here is totally fair including from the most cynical..besides, these are comments from some readers, but do not constitute an editorial strategy …

    how in hell could Jim, or anyone, destroy Burn with his comments?? again, most readers of Burn do NOT even come into the comment section…so please do not put so so much importance on the comments in terms of Burn policy….the comments do provide an interesting dialogue and are often very helpful to the photographers who are published for their sense of where they may stand…in any case, who loves Burn more than Jim? the boy spends more time here than do i….he well knows that i am going to do whatever i am doing regardless of his comments or anyone else’..Jim also knows from whence i come and i know who he is too…no problem at all for me…or for him….besides , i cannot think of one single criticism here , short of the trolls, that does not have some merit…i do listen…i do read…i also act on my instincts, but please shoot me dead if i move into some kind of vacuum….so Jim says for example Circus a bad idea…he could be right….but of course i plan to very much prove him wrong wrong wrong….and deep deep down inside that is exactly what Jim wants me to do…

    many thanks to all of you..just be somewhat nice to each other…something special will still happen at Burn…when Burn is over, as surely all things are over, i will be the first to let it go..but, that time is not here yet…nothing better than the spirit of REVOLUTION…..still more to go…stay tuned…

    cheers, david

  • HERVE…

    you know Shrimp?? well, i guess everyone knows Shrimp…anyway, yes i met him years ago when i was making “illegal” excursions into North Vietnam and Kampuchea…i was trying to figure out how to recognize the location and trip wire systems of various land mines (both U.S. and Vietcong) and he was photographing beautiful women..hmmmm, i thought…

    sorry i will miss you Herve…

  • i’m nice now, chief :-).

  • Ladies and Gentlemen,

    thank you for this powerful discussion. It really motivates me, to continue photography.
    If you reflect on yourself, what have you done since “Everyday” was published?
    You have reflected on photography, and well what you think is not. But it made you think.
    About beauty, ugliness. About being part of a group, about so many things.
    Your challenge motivates me to get better. To show to you I can do photography.
    And those who say “Everyday” does not make them think – didn’t they think more about photography during the last days, than by looking at pictures they like? Reflect yourself and your emotions. Dig deeper.
    What you find is yourself.

    I have to admit, however, you gave me a hard time. And it made me reflecting on myself too. And I want to thank you for that, too.

    Besides that, it is just pictures.
    All the best to you all.

  • DAH…

    you wrote ‘i do want to do a couple of days of shooting BKK at least to add to my SE Asia archive’

    i’d like to ask you a couple of questions on adding to your archive if i may:

    when adding to your archive are you looking for something in particular, e.g something that says BKK 2009 ?
    or perhaps there is a certain idea you’ve always wanted to capture?

    do you set out with a particular goal(s) in mind? or do you just hit the streets and see where it leads you, freestyle?

    what are YOU looking for?

    and, how many images would you be satisfied with, of your top Magnum level (from 2 days shooting)
    would one killer image be enough or perhaps 3 or 10????

    i hope you don’t mind me asking you these questions, but i’m very curious and i guess others here would be too.

    If i had a day or two to shoot in BKK and it wasn’t part of a particular project i’m not sure i’d know how to approach it and get the best from the opportunity…

    thanks and enjoy yourself!

  • And those who say “Everyday” does not make them think – didn’t they think more about photography during the last days, than by looking at pictures they like?

    u are a true gentleman…
    not only u survived all that hate,
    the jealousy and attacks
    but u managed to come out stronger and even more motivated..
    as a friend said above something that reminded me of the Beatles’s “Walrus” and Lil Waynes’ true word:
    “dont sit on the table if u bringing nothing to it”

    Again Thomas…
    thank u for your work, thank u for putting yourself into the lines of fire,
    thank u for gently “forcing” the cynicals and the pessimists and the “walruses” think..
    and more important thank you for
    “bringing something from your soul to our table”…

  • …too damn much testosterone around here…CIVILIAN where are you?

    i second that…
    we need some ouzo in here…
    ok.. im going back to sleep…
    that was a hell of a fight/s

  • back from everyday dog walking Gu says ……

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I was busy reading the news :
    _Former Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej dies
    _ Trial of Khmer Rouge prison chief in final stage
    _Protecting Jungles: One Way to Combat Global Warming
    and I was busy shooting,shooting like there is no tomorrow…
    hihihi …I got you
    Choke choke
    I don’t even have a camera …hihihi
    BUT you are my eyes…go out and shout,
    I need to be stimulated
    tick-talk,tick-talk …the game is on

    I am the happiest Civilian in the Universe…cause I have the best of the best “souls” all
    squeezed here and there … Together we can do our everyday lives little better…
    Donate BURNIANS and smile …it feels good…
    Judy Garland – Over The Rainbow (Live 1943)

    Goodnight…goodmorning…keep the fire on…I LOVE testosterone with ouzo …

  • hi david

    sorry if i came across as being on a lofty perch, not my intention. i’m pretty sure that the comment i left on the everyday essay was the first time i have left a negative comment on an essay in months; i long ago decided that if i didn’t like an essay i would keep my trap shut, and i wish i had stuck to this now. after all, it’s “only photography”. Hands up, I should have been more measured in my response instead of just writing what I thought at the time.

    and yes i was being presumptuous when i stated that you probably have other essays in a queue to be published. but then you know, i guess i just figured that a lucie award winning magazine would have people clamouring at the gates to have their work featured. perhaps i’m wrong?

    as for me not submitting work – well it’s pretty simple really. in the past 18 months I’ve been working on a single body of work. before that, i was only sitting on old series that I didn’t want to recycle. while I have something tangible now that I’d be happy to publish, I just don’t see Burn Magazine as the right place for my photography. is that fair enough?

    in the meantime, so long as burn magazine has unmoderated comments then i’ll stop by and make one every so often. i’ll just try to count to ten first.


  • a civilian-mass audience


    that means that after March 2010 you are coming over for some grilled octapus …red wine
    ouzo on the side …

    P.S BURN CIRCUS BURN !!! I will be back …

  • David, I think what strikes me most is the amount of average photography that appears on Burn. It was my hope that we would see the best of the best of emerging photographers represented here. I believe that is how it started out. But lately it’s been an eclectic assortment of competent but not excellent photography. I realize that you are selecting from what is submitted to you, and perhaps it will require a more proactive effort to seek out the very best, but isn’t that who deserves the exposure here?

    While I understand there is a real time issue for you and Anton, and that you talk a lot about ways to deal with that, it seems to remain mostly talk. Show us outstanding photography, whatever you have to do to accomplish that.

  • Shrimp (Paul G.)…… and he was photographing beautiful women..hmmmm, i thought…
    True to character….and you figuring out how not to lose a limb to mines too! :-)))

    Funnily, I am doing some serious autumn cleaning at home before my trip, going thru every drawer and tin cookie box, and I found his girlie cards calendar for the year 2001! Still under cellophane!!!

    I do not think he was only photographing them….. Well, in our prime, none of us were just photographing them ;-).

  • Talking about “competent but not excellent” photography, and being “cut-out” (of a deal), I found a whole bunch of stolen pictures of mine on this site, on the page concerned with the thai water festival (called Songkran). Actually, save the top postcard one, all are mine…. Still expecting an answer from them, but if not I will pay them a visit when I get there.

    They seem also competent, but not excellent in the ethic department! :-)

  • Errr… Their crops too, not mine!

  • Herve, you’ve got to stop posting your stuff on the Internet!

  • No stuff, Jim, I promise. Only photos (at low resolutions)… I actually sold a few of these (thanks to the internet, Win some, lose some I guess..) to other outfits. The one with the kid sticking his tongue was on a BKK magazine cover.

  • a civilian-mass audience


    best of the best…hmmmm…
    we reached the top BUT we just keep climbing and we keep BURNing …
    and we talk and we walk the walk…!!! maybe octapus with beer :)))

    P.S HERVE …you got the right to fight… for “PARTYYYYYYY”

  • “I can’t for the life of me understand some of the reaction here, except that I know from 23 years of personal experience as a parent of a mentally handicapped son, that people are uncomfortable confronting people with physical and mental dis-abilities.”


    Gordon, were you saying that the photographer or the viewers were uncomfortable? I can’t speak for everyone, but as a son growing up with a father that had a physical handicap, I can assure you that is not where my criticism of the Agent Orange story cam from.

  • Maybe Magnum has the right idea. Put a lot of big, ugly watermarks all over every photo on the web.

  • Brian, I wasn’t speaking of anyone in particular, sorry if I came off that way.

    Re-reading that part of my comment I can see how I could have used another way to touch on the subject.
    I’m likely over-sensitive to such issues. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.

  • Ben,

    keep posting, your posts are always direct,incisive and to the point, no flim flam. The skill of the work on your site also shows you know what you are up to.



  • a civilian-mass audience

    Suppose to be a Ladies night out…hmmmmm???
    I guess the cat ate the fish, no??? are we there yet???

    Well, what are you shooting BURNIANS ???

  • I’m a vegetarian. I only shoot tofu.

  • Civi – Gonna be shooting with my new spiffy Panasonic LX3 tonight. What’s not to love?

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Vegetarian… sounds familiar…

    the game is on
    deadline is coming
    no time for lurking …

  • a civilian-mass audience

    how much the new spiffy …and why did you buy Panasonic…???

  • Going on vacation beginning Sunday, and I wanted to bring a compact camera. The panasonic has a Leica lens, shoots HD movies, and got a great review at DPreview:

    “The LX3 is an example of a species so endangered that we were beginning to worry it had become extinct – a compact camera that photographers can get excited about. Panasonic has included a large degree of direct control, classy styling and, more importantly, a specification that goes beyond the unthinking ‘larger screen and more megapixels’ trend.”

  • a civilian-mass audience

    FRANK, we wish good energy and lovely shootings !!!

    and TO ALL BURNIANS ( especially for those who will celebrate Thanksgiving)
    we wish you LOVE ,HEALTH and HAPPINESS …
    and wherever you are don’t forget the 3 SILENT F’s:

    LOVE to all !!!
    ouzo on me tonight !!!

  • Does anyone visit Vision 09 on this Friday in London?

  • BEN…

    fair enough my friend…i too will try count to at least eleven…i really would love to publish the night work i saw of yours when i was in London…you have a very nice subtle flair to your work that i think the readers here would appreciate…the submissions here are many, but the really fine ones are indeed rare….i think that is the nature of photography and the nature of those of us who peruse..we have all seen so many photographs, that it does take something very special to ring the bell….of course, anyone who you know or whose work you think i should see, please let me know…several of our very best essays have come to me on reader recommendation…yours would be most appreciated…


    i do not recall at any point you being exactly overjoyed with the work presented on Burn…i cannot remember a time when you thought all of the essays “good” and now suddenly they are “bad”….i am sure nobody here remembers any Jim Powers endorsement of Burn since the very beginning…no matter what we do, and SOME things have worked out quite well, you do not like it….now every regularly published magazine i know does go through good “issues” and ones not so good..and i am talking about international magazines with big budgets and highly paid staffs and money to send photographers on assignment…no such thing as 100% perfect publication..just so you know, i would have to say that probably only 10% of the work submitted do we even give a second look, so surely there is a dependency on what comes in…most photography is, in fact, competent but not excellent…and if it were suddenly all “excellent” than that would become the new mediocre and we would then need super excellent and there would never be enough of it and on and on…..i think it has been that way for as long as i can remember viewing work…

    you are quite right however in your request for proactive searching/editing as well as relying on can help…as i suggested to Ben, please let me know what you see out there that deserves publishing here….Anton and i bust it here Jim, while trying to also maintain careers as working photographers..Anton is immersed with the yakuza in Japan… i will soon be going off on a very committed magazine assignment for several weeks, also working on the American family book, teaching, and working on Burn full time too…not only editing stories, but a whole lot of behind the scenes work that has Burn in a lot of serious media discussions considering we are just a two person operation..surely you must assume things are going on which take up efforts which we do not do “a lot of talk” about…most of what is going on we do not talk about…and won’t until something happens that is real…

    now Jim your criticism would be much more helpful and have a whole lot more validity if it was just spiced up once in awhile with just a wee bit of some credit that Burn does deserve this year…the whole media world is watching Burn, but Jim Powers says it ain’t so…well, THAT is fair enough frankly…i am not beyond reproach and i am sure Anton would agree….but, a constant drumbeat of negative thinking just gets old…aren’t you tired of it yourself? i mean you complain of mediocre photography and i must say i am getting a little tired of mediocre critique…or, at least Jim get a hold of a whole month of Burn and critique that in depth and by example, rather than tell us our whole world is falling apart because of one or two essays you do not happen to like..oddly, you liked Mike Young’s piece which ran just last week for heavens sake and a few days later the sky is falling…laughing Jim…funny guy, funny guy….

  • Actually, David, there are a number of essays I’ve liked and said so. There were more at first than now.

    And I recognize you and Anton are probably trying to do too much with too little time. But should that compromise the work shown here? Shouldn’t it be the best of the best? Is your busy schedule an excuse? I have no doubt Burn is a major distraction to your professional life. But you did take on the project. Is it worth the price? (Rhetorical questions not asking for answers).


    i think this is the hotel that James photographed under construction…matches in every way…and Ann, the manager of the Dream Hotel, is now the manager of this hotel…which is i guess why we are here, but still a lot of coincidence…or, is it just another BKK mystery of which there are so many?

  • JIM…

    i never said that our busy schedule had anything at all to do with the content published here…you said that, not me…we do not skip a beat no matter what our schedule….nor did i ever say that Burn was a distraction to my professional said that, not me….it is actually quite the contrary…Anton and i are both very happily busy…having the time of our life…anyway, please be a decent reporter and go back and re-read and analyze the substance of what i DID say…and , yes yes yes, worth every penny of “the price”…by the way, are you a skyper??

  • Jimbo give the man a hand with stuff…don’t wait til the midnight hour just picket up and run with it


    many thanks for all the singles…will go with them, or at least one of them, as soon as i get home…and home is looking sweeter all the time…also back on skype with you at that time as well…

  • For what it is worth, after some talk a while back about not a lot of singles, I did recently submit one.


  • Jim seems to be operating under the assumption that BURN is not wildly successful.

  • Yes, David. I have Skype.

  • Tom, David

    Yeah! The hotel (and mall I believe) were being constructed on the corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit, up from Soi Cowboy (and those delicious crickets!). It was know as “Interchange 21” at that time, i’m not sure what they planned to call the hotel though?.. I believe the Grand Millennium hotel is in a different location… Unless this is a new one!?… What’s with all this BKK chatter anyway!?

  • Ah yes, David’s recent workshop in BKK!…


    With you on your “authorship” comment.


    You’re the man. The credit belongs to the one who’s IN the arena, right? …been a while since I thought of that particular quote. Does us all good to remember that from time to time :)


    Is there a transcript of your time with Nikos, or have I missed it, or are you working on it?


    i am still in BKK and back home on friday…working on a sound track for Nachtwey regarding an upcoming Burn piece…


    yes, funny isn’t it? but we can always use the prodding rod….nobody, certainly not me, wants to rest on any laurels whatsoever..

  • Mark W,

    second of my comments of this page:

    i will post more in my next meeeting with nikos..
    nowadays he is busy with the edit of his new book called ANATOLIA,
    his upcoming exhibition in France, and right after that, his
    workshop that start soon…
    more details here:

    big hug yall from western greece…left athens last night..
    ( i need to shave asap )

  • PANOS…

    i think you know that i will be editing your Greek essay right after i return home on dec. 1….please make sure that i have everything you want to show by that time…give Nikos my warmest regards and i want to publish him too….

    cheers, david


    yours is a good question….

    i have two very large bodies of work…significant archives….one is of course the Spanish/Portugese diaspora from which two books have emerged (Cuba, Divided Soul)…the other is Southeast Asia, from which no books have been derived, but several large magazine projects for Natgeo and others…two major pieces on Vietnam, one on Cambodia (Kampuchea), two essays on Malaysia, one on Sumatra, and an essay on child abuse in Thailand…i never see an “assignment” as only an assignment…an assignment is merely a means of getting to some personal work…..i always look at my involvement as ongoing…i think all of my colleagues at Magnum and other agencies see it the same way…we are never finished once we are interested and committed….

    so if i ever have a chance to back to a subject where i have spent time before , i will find any excuse to do so…i do not always know what the outcome will be in terms of publication, but that does not matter….in this case, a workshop in BKK provided my plane ticket and my hotel and that is always enough to get me going…

    when i was last in BKK two years ago for my workshop with Jim Nachtwey, i started an esoteric essay called “Dream Hotel”…i was staying in the Dream Hotel and came up with a concept for an essay and perhaps a short film…so, i am sketching sketching sketching……i loved the name of the hotel, the environment surrounding it, and that was enough to give me some ideas…i created a short slide show with music and have had that in my back pocket for the last two years…to describe the content to you would be erroneous because it is not photojournalistic in nature and is totally conceptual (although the work is all bearing witness) have to see it to get it…it is most easily described as someone’s dream….so simply, that is what i am doing wandering the streets of BKK now…when i see something, anything, that seems to fit my mood and my concept of Dream Hotel i shoot…mostly this means i am not shooting pictures at all, but looking , thinking, and when that special situation arises that “fits” i move like a maniac…..

    now, this also provides photography for my Magnum archive as well on the most basic level..out of the context of Dream Hotel…our archives are our single biggest asset as photographers to be used in so many ways…i always tell my students to only think about three things with their work…their archive, their archive and their archive….this is your investment in your photographic life….your only investment….my past work on all subjects provides present income and will often become the fodder for books , exhibitions etc…

    so Sam think about your archive…your body of work….your Dream Hotel…conceptualize, document, live it breath it, be it…your photography is only part of the picture…your ideas and how you put them together is what will count….

    thank you for asking a relevant question….

    cheers, david

  • DAVID..:)
    yes, yes..
    im about to submit more, more, more stuff..
    in the meantime, im shooting, shooting..shooting..
    brainstorming…but also shooting without a cause..
    yes “without a cause”…
    subconsciously…and we will see what will come out…
    i also have a crazy idea to do in the athens polytechnic
    in the next riot..but that would require for me to
    get arrested…so far noone from my family agrees with me to proceed..
    but we will see..
    in the meantime , again..
    shooting shooting and shooting ( without thinking -too much-)

  • BANG
    erica just blew fish out the water..


    I’m with David B –our Erica really did just “blow the fish out of the water” with her essay! And it triggers lots of questions in me. Like how does a photographer incorporate soundtracks like Erica’s into their books? Is it possible to include a DVD with a photo book? I know she can present the recorded material transcribed into words but then you lose the music of their voices. And Erica’s subjects speak in such a uniquely Brooklyn way. It is so touching to hear their comments and stories as told in their own voices.

    And what about the possibility of turning this into a short documentary film? Am I right that all she’d have to add would be some video shots with the visuals and sounds of the place and the people speaking? She could also use many of the stills and recorded interviews and sounds she already has. Of course, editing would be a whole task in and of itself, but I’m sure Erica could do that in the same professional way she does everything.

    I think of Maisie Crow and her work. Have you seen Maisie’s work, David? If not, it’s well worth taking a look. Be sure to have your sound on. Here’s a link to two of her multimedia pieces:

    There are now so many ways to present photography. It is so exciting! Do you ever contemplate going multimedia in your own work, David? I’ve just started playing with it a bit myself and am beginning to get the bug.

    So yes, books are great, but in 2009, don’t you think there are other ways to make your mark as a photographer? I’d love to hear your reflections on this…



    I just read the comment you posted in response to Sam Harris’ question. So yes, you are already thinking/creating multimedia work. Of course having two sons who are filmmakers doesn’t hurt in terms of having mentors available! But now I think of your “Off for a Family Drive” project. Do you have recorded interviews with these folks? Could it go multimedia in addition to becoming a book?


  • Multimedia is cool, I love the technical aspects of its creation. But it is vapor, fleeting eye candy, without substance. Physical books are what matter. A thing you can hold in your hand. A thing that calls from my bookcase. I’m certainly no luddite, there are four computers surrounding me here in my home office. But in the end, it is the books that will remain and have significance.

  • I agree with Jim, regarding the books. However Multimedia presentations make the work complete. The sound, the interviews (I wished the smell could be transported, too) make it something different than the book.
    The book then is for persistency.

    It is in the mix.

  • Patricia,

    the book : Take Care of Yourself by Sophie Calle, there is a dvd, I agree with you, I think it’s very good idea for a project of Erica

  • I agree with the multi-media for presentation, especially within a working, professional, environment.

    Of note, “for the fun of it” amateurs have mixed audio/movie/pix medias for years now on the net, this is only new as concerns one’s career in such media, IMO.

    And of course, movie documentarists have mixed them for decades, without the need for concision and instant impact that seems the crux of the problem for Photographers, but like Jim, not sure it’s a keeper in the long run as one’s Art, so to speak.

    I also think the book with DVD/CD is still a bit of a cute format, often comes off as extra-marketing too, even though that was not the artist’s intent, maybe.

  • Also, think that when you look at a DVD movie or you listen to a music CD, you actually look at a movie or listen to music (the matrix is forgotten).

    The point being that with photos, you look at a DVD, or a CD with photos in it, not quite the photos, directly. Maybe because of the need for navigation, and also the fact that images do inhabit a realm quite different from movies or music. The impact of a picture is more instantaneous, more visceral than the other medias (as visceral as these may be too), and therefore, if impact is delayed thru multi-media techniques, they become part of a whole. Obvious of course, but that may be detrimental in the sense that they become images, imagery, not photography.

  • a bit off topic now as i see, but thanks all for the camera backpack comments…. i already checked it in the shop (the Kata in small), and makes alot of sense but will wait for a bigger volume and alternative lowepro to arrive in the shop.

    thomas, jim and herve… as for the presention/multimedia… i mentioned it on erica macdonlands new essay – i think it is a matter of talking photographic language. usually boring, irritating, pointless, not interesting and coherent… but again, maost important is that there is a Languege called photography, and it is mute and static essentially. sounds in photography, great, make me imagine them, motion, also great, make me imagine it, but dont want to hear it and to see a broken movie. it is just like using lots of english words in russian conversation or in hebrew…. it is ok for englishman who cannot speak fluently russian, but for a creator that calls him/herslf “photographer” it is “less ok”because “trendy” is not a good enough reason to accompany good photos with sounds etc. photography is rich enough and capable enough on its own…

  • DAH,

    thanks for such an interesting and valuable reply.
    of course now i’m more than curious to see your esoteric essay ‘Dream Hotel’ : )))

    “…your ideas and how you put them together is what will count…”

    ideas i have, thankfully, BUT ‘how you put them together’ can often be a challenge.

    i often have clusters of images that i really like but struggle with the best way to use them.
    three small essay’s or one bigger project?… borders… i am an expert at making myself dizzy…

    i guess my Dream Hotel is my Postcards from Home, it keeps growing, which i’m very excited about (incidentally, after having it published here on burn it encouraged me immensely, i’ve been shooting with a new confidence, freedom and focus. in just a few weeks after publication i had collected quite a few images, better than the previous (i think) almost enough for another essay – i’d like to show you…) but i also have other personal work starting to appear that could arguably fit into postcards and expand it, that’s my dilemma – invite my friends in, share something of their lifestyles and our common values… or keep them separate… even though our worlds do interweave naturally for the most part…

    there is, i believe, a lot of interesting subject matter in my neck of the woods… i can see a few editorials on individual subjects, but i can also see them merge as one…

    i’m not sure how to best compartmentalise, i could really use your input…

    perhaps i could e-mail you a link to some of this new work and get your opinion?



  • ooops, i mean putting sound to good photographs is usually boring irritating pointless and not interesting… i must read before i click “submit” :)

  • Patricia,

    I,too, have been wondering what comes ‘next’,after books.

    Jim and Thomas hit on the fact that books do have a staying power that most other
    media options don’t project.

    That being said, evolution is inevitable and an additional way of presenting our work surely
    is around the corner.

    I’ve got a couple of dozen books that come with an accompanying DVD and, to be honest, don’t
    even take them out of their sleeves. Presented this way, i find the content to be simply a
    throw in that doesn’t necessarily reflect the mood of the printed book.

    Looking at something like the Kindle and factoring in the serious rumors that Apple and others
    have slick ‘HD’ media tablets coming soon I can imagine a scenario where there will be a platform
    much like the iTunes store where individuals will be able to purchase and download hi-res versions
    of what we now regard as multimedia pieces created, and produced by, perhaps, you and me.

    I know for a fact that I would fork out a few bucks per piece to be able to create my own library
    of content and be able to organize it in such a way that I, essentially, am ‘editing’ together
    visual playlists that reflect my interests.

    Over the past 3-4 years I have come across a ton of powerful multimedia/ slideshows that I can no
    longer access and would be the type of person that would pay to have this content available, on demand.

    Perhaps, this type of technological evolution could be part of the solution that could offset the
    diminishing options many photographers now face regarding publication.

    Author your own pieces and sell directly to consumers thereby bypassing the barriers currently in
    place by publishers, etc.

    If the content is good and the media presentation is done in a way that does not interfere with
    the experience as Herve notes with DVD navigation there I’m convinced there are many more,like me,
    who will support these endeavors with our wallets.

  • Mtomalty, you’re really thinking about a promising direction, thanks for stimulating the juices to flow in my own brain. I think many of us should be casting our ideas in that direction… something a bit like a Kindle but in HD format with high resolution and accurate color, and sound as well… that you can hold in your hands, that you can hit the ‘pause’ button on… if it’s the same size as a book and the visual quality is rich (and NO gutter!), I could easily see it eventually capturing a significant market of downloadable multi-media pieces. Lots of ideas spinning off from that basic platform…

    I watched Erica’s piece first once without the sound, then with it twice through, and now if I watch it without the sound it definitely feels like something is missing. I’ve had the same experience with my own slideshows recently. I’ve dabbled in video a bit in the past and have recently been thinking about it again, but the more I think about the power of multimedia pieces, the more I feel that good sound is really the key, more important than, and more ‘bang for the buck’ than, motion per se… Erica, I hope you will tell us something about how you assembled the sound portion of your piece, your recording and editing tools, etc.

    If we get enough photo essays going with sound, maybe we should change the name of this online magazine to “BURN, CRACKLE, and BURN.”

  • The evolution of devices like the Kindle could be a game changer for sophisticated multimedia presentations by photographers. Something interactive with photographer interview, an option for a running commentary from the photographer that talks about their thinking while taking the individual photos, etc. These devices simply aren’t there…yet. That kind of content would interest me, though.


    Only rumors, of course, but where there’s SMOKE, there’s FIRE, and where there’s a FIRE
    there’s a BURN.

  • As far as commentary/info on individual photos of a project goes, Brooks Jensen (of LensWork) has been doing it for some time now. For example:

  • Too much concern about oneself not enough about the work itself……….get over it, get on with it, do it.


    i love books…you can hug a book…and print magazines too….but, surely the new Apple tablet will revolutionize everything…i am quite sure that my very next magazine assignments coming up will be my last..well, not my last personally, but just the last…i do think the tablet will revolutionize everything including books..i mean print books…they will become more individualized, closer to handmade, limited editions etc…but, the way of communicating with the world will be through the tablet and your big flat screen at home……and content will be king…gotta have something to show on the tablet….everybody get your cameras and your ideas out…lots of work to do…

    oh yes, Sidney, you are so so right…the sound with stills is the thing…video and stills mixed is way overused just because photographers can do it….but the sound with stills is special…video is its own thing and hardly ever looks good with stills imo…i did not say never, i just said hardly ever….

    cheers, david

  • Content may become king, but like everything on the web, they won’t be willing to pay anything for it.

  • The window for the “accompanying DVD” with a book is quickly closing. The MacBook Air doesn’t even have an optical drive, and such media are soon to go the way of the floppy. Video and sound belong on the web, and more and more authors (non-photographers) are producing “trailers” to go with their books.

    Erica’s piece here on BURN would make a great trailer, the centerpiece of the book’s website, for when the printed volume is released.


    sorry, i missed the last part of your comment…you and many others will be willing to pay for this content…just as we all pay for what we really like…corporations, sponsors, grant givers, and individuals will all jump in and want to identify with good content…this is the big scramble now….the next six months will sort out the content providers…just as you now for 99cents can get an app for your iphone, you will be able to do the same or similar on your new tablet….human nature dictates all of the above…free might be for now, but low cost and high quality content, just as you describe, will be where it all goes i am sure…folks aren’t just suddenly going to stop wanting content just because the media companies can no longer provide it…..readers, viewers, will get it a different way, but they will get it… surely this is the most exciting communication revolution of all time..

    cheers, david

  • DAVID,

    Reading your comments about the Dream hotel, it made me want to see this piece of work… I used to really enjoy when you were sharing bits and pieces of your own work with us…of course not to divulgue it prematurely but you know, seeing what you are also up to is always interesting…. Now having said this, I know that it is always better to show a final piece of work so, I might have to be patient here :):):)….

    I will have to go bed early tonight as I have a depressing 6am flight to catch but cannot resist to say again what a nice feeling is was this evening to see some great photography. Erica’s work made me think, touched me and I have watched the essay a good 10 times by now… The bar has been raised today:) by a very gifted photographer….

    OK….bed now….



    yes, of course Erica should use this with her book….anyone contemplating a book should take heed…incidentally, my last three books have all had either films, videos, or multi media pieces to go with them…part of the exhibitions and online and on tv..and more sophisticated versions will come soonest with new projects for all of us…with the tablet of course you can have everything in one place…e-books will become the future for mass distribution , and as i said earlier, i think this will drive print prices higher for the niche market and place even higher value on limited edition print books as well…exciting times indeed…

    cheers, david

  • There is nothing that revolutionary about the apple tablet just another viewing device content is still up to the viewer. Nothing that magazines cannot be done on a netbook, laptop computer etc…….The main redeeming feature is that we will be able to present more content in portrait format, widescreen and the affiliated www dot applications have just about killed it.

  • Multi projector slide shows were tops. Having just finished my first “multi-media” piece,I’ve got to say I just can’t get enough. I think there is something very primal about combining still imagery with sound. For some reason I think our minds store snapshots and replay sounds. Count me in for a sound recording device. It adds so much richness.

    As long as I can remember all gatherings to celebrate were done so with a slideshow and now the PowerPoint. It just seems to connect. Happy Thanksgiving ya’ll out in Burnsville.

  • Stills sound combo has been around in the art world as a presentation well before sliced bread

  • .. at least! our friend Olga Kravetz was finalist in Aftermath project 2010. I’m so happy. Olga CONGRATULATION!!!!

  • Re: books and multimedia, I do know that seeing Ed Kashi’s premier of the video that goes with hsi latest book Three made me want to buy the book even more.

    That said, I recently realized one reason a Kindle or similar device won’t replace books for me when traveling….on the airplane, you can’t have them on (along with the other electronic devices) until you’re at 10,000 feet….I typically read during boarding, taxi, takeoff….

    That and the fact that you must have a power source. Hard to think of reading a Kindle during a blackout by candlelight.

    Happy holiday to all….I know that I have much to be thankful for…and much to appreciate. I wish everyone the best…and good light.


  • I trust I’m not representative of any sizable demographic, but the slideshow on a nice monitor is my preferred way of viewing photos. That’s what I like about burn. Lots o’ slideshows.

    I’d consider paying five or ten dollars for, say, a slideshow with 50 to 75 images. Accompanying audio or music might be nice, but I’m okay with supplying my own. Copyright is a big problem for these kinds of projects. Unfortunately, Nick Cave won’t give me permission to use his work with my slideshows. It’s tough enough to produce that many interesting photos, then you have to compose and perform your own music as well. And in most cases, Garageband just doesn’t cut it.

    But until you all start producing these slideshows I might want to buy, I’ll just have to continue producing my own entertainment. There are many days I go out to shoot just to have something new to watch.

  • DAH, Eric, ALL…

    Just reading your two comments which combined (at least in my mind) bring up a subject I’ve been wanting to see discussed here:

    DAH (posted under Erica’s essay) about “taking the time to do it right”
    Eric’s wanting to see your new work but not wanting you to “divulge it prematurely”

    Make me wonder…WHEN IS THE RIGHT TIME TO SHOW YOUR WORK? When is too soon? Not soon enough?

    Of course the answer is different for each photographer/each project but I’d love to hear more on this subject.

    I’ve been working on two projects I’m very excited about and as much as I’d love to share them, I just don’t feel ready. I want to shoot more, edit more and don’t want any negativity at this point, it feels too tender to expose…so obviously it’s too soon for me to show this work.

    I guess at some point it will be clear that I’m ready to show but it’s also nice to get feedback early on. Is there such a thing as waiting too long?

    I’d love to hear some comments/personal stories about this.

  • I’ll agree that the technology in a tablet style device is hardly revolutionary but what
    I’m hoping/speculating is that a distribution network a la iTunes store will follow suit which
    would help empower the creative individual/group in a way that, to date, has not been available.

    Though the printing press has been around for centuries they have been off limits for all but
    the rarified few until companies like Blurb repackaged the idea and embraced newer technologies
    to put publishing in the hands of the individual.
    Now,for better or worse, I can create a book of my own but where the idea stalls, as a working
    professional who needs a return a little better than bragging rights, is distribution.

    Ebooks or eStories or multimedia, I think are the logical evolution and a tablet type device,
    if done correctly, is a way to help fulfill that evolution.

    The liklihood that enough people would buy my book to the degree that it covers printing
    expenses and generates enough profit to move forward is slim to none.

    A well-constructed eBook containing content that enough people would be interested in and
    priced at something like $2.99 or $3.99 gets to a level that starts to be interesting for
    a critical mass of buyers to purchase without any difficulty.
    Jazz it up with the option for motion and audio and I believe there lies a basic recipe for
    many photographers to succeed, moving forward, in a business/publishing climate that does not
    provide much optimism.

  • It’s a discipline thing once you start playing around and no longer in the loop in this case of photographer > project > audience it is time to stop …… there is nothing to be gained by going over and over the same stuff. Many a painter,concetualist etc has gone that one step too far and the work loses all relevance, loses freshness and becomes a bin job.

  • “..on the airplane, you can’t have them on (along with the other electronic devices) until you’re at 10,000 feet….I typically read during boarding, taxi, takeoff…”

    I haven’t flown commercially in the last couple of years but are ipods now not permitted
    during these events? because I see a tablet work much the same way an ipod would-in basic form
    a storage and playback system that set up to the users individual tastes.

    I also don’t see a tablet replacing print editions but complementing them.

  • Imants, but who’s to say we all have to be struggling artists.

    Can’t some of just be decent photographers with small businesses that need, or wish,
    to realize a profit to continue doing what we love.

    If someone else wants to produce work then stick it on top of something else then burn it or
    piss on it or smear their own shit on it and then hang it in a gallery then by all means be my guest.

    I’m just not the target audience.


    Once again, I think that you’re on just the right wavelength here. Whether the Apple tablet in its first incarnation will be the ideal platform for viewing multimedia or not is not really the question… once the distribution model for such content is established in the way that iTunes/iPod are now, eventually the appropriate user-friendly hardware for downloading, storing, and viewing will evolve. Democratizing the access to commercial distribution is really the key. Exciting stuff to think about.

    And Michael Webster, you are not alone in liking to watch photo-audio slideshows on a good monitor. Even on my little laptop, I think it’s a good presentation device. On a big monitor, so much the better. I love books, my family has always measured its wealth in books, I’ve spent thousands of dollars shipping boxes of my own books around the world… but I’ve never, ever been reconciled to the gutter in photo books or photo magazines and I won’t mourn its demise. My ideal ‘tablet’ would be about the thickness and weight of a Kindle, but with a surface viewing area like the screen on a 17″ laptop computer.

  • I was replying to Cathy about when a project is completed

    Imants, but who’s to say we all have to be struggling artists. ????????????
    ………. so what are you rabbiting on about I never mentioned struggling, you made that one up. What are you on about??

  • I don’t see why consumers won’t pay for this sort of downloaded content. I have been thinking that this is the way forward for photography for a couple of years. I mean they currently pay for Podcasts don’t they, what’s the difference ? It’s all digital content. Some people have made a lot of money selling Podcasts Ricky Gervais has made a great deal of money selling them for less than a dollar each, he’s sold millions. These have been bought online mostly by young people as well as myself !

    What can be a more perfect way to increase your income by selling your work online for people to stream onto their large screen HD monitors to view in the comfort of their living rooms? Gone will be the days of trying to find a publisher, you can be the publisher yourself. Perfect, absolutely perfect.

    Don’t be such a pessimist Jim.

  • Imants

    Apologies. I mistakenly assumed you were responding to another post.

    …rabbiting, no more!

  • I’ve never paid for a podcast. Guess I didn’t realize anyone actually sold them. I wouldn’t pay for the type of downloaded content we’re talking about. Or, rather, I woudn’t pay much for it. Buying digital content “feels like” buying air. It has no substance, no mass, and does not feel valuable. It’s also fragile as eggs, disappearing with the vagaries of the container that holds it. I pass by my bookshelves, see a photo book and take it down on a whim, looking at the pages again and again, because I see it there. Digital content once consumed becomes invisible, and I’m unlikely to revisit it unless I am deliberately searching for it. Because of that, it is less valuable to me.

    I have thousands of songs on various Ipods, but tend to listen to the same relatively few albums because I really have to decide I want to revisit them. My racks of CD’s, though, call out to me. I’ll be looking for one thing and see another. The CD’s have substance, mass. Physically and psychologically. They have more “value” to me than the digital versions of the same album.

    I’m not sure I want to encourage disposable media any more than it already exists today. All photography on the Internet is disposable. And therefore less valuable. And I don’t think you can invent a virtual container for it that will give it real value in consumer’s minds.

  • mtomalty..
    “I haven’t flown commercially in the last couple of years but are ipods now not permitted
    during these events? because I see a tablet work much the same way an ipod would-in basic form
    a storage and playback system that set up to the users individual tastes.”

    That’s correct – one airline has now even added a specific reference to “the new electronic books” when they ask you to shut off electronic devices before when the door is closed after boarding. The other day I saw/heard a flight attendant ask someone in the row across from me to remove his headphones and turn off his iPod (the ipod is usually mentioned as well)….he said it wasn’t on. she asked him to remove the headphones and stow the device anyway….

    I take it all with a grain of salt….while I may personally not think it is necessary, it is FAA regulations. The rule is NO electronic devices – even approved ones – between the time the aircraft door is closed and when the pilot indicates it’s ok to use them, which is usually when the aircraft reaches 10,000 feet (if you are near the front and listen, you’ll hear the pilot hit the chime a single time to indicate that altitude, after which the flight attendant comes on and says it’s ok to turn on approved devices).

    Give me a library that loans paperbacks (ours does :) and I’m happy.

    good light,

  • I agree with Jim about the virtual container thing. That’ll never catch on. It’s like my pappy said about flash photography. Better to just pull your car up and light the scene with the headlights. In-camera light metering? Don’t get him started about that. Auto-focus? Ha. Photoshop? (feverishly crosses self, recites incantation). As for delivery, people will never read a newspaper or magazine on a computer screen, much less a whole book. The sweet feel of ink on fingers, the palpable realness of quality paper… Those uniquely visceral qualities can never be replaced by no pixels bub. Can’t read a newspaper on the subway. Nor on the can. Neh?

    But I have to admit that digital does have a few advantages. Computer files are lighter for one thing. I read somewhere that all those National Geographics stacked in people’s basements would eventually sink the continents. Still, even with the weight advantage, I doubt the young folk will ever go for it. They are very resistant to change, you know.

    But if I’m wrong, and times do change, I’m not entirely pessimistic about the future. I bet more people watch photo slideshows on computers now (Flikr, IPhoto, blah blah blah) than ever read Life magazine back in the day, much less went to a gallery show or bought a photo book. If people like watching slideshows of their own crap so much, the trick will getting them to want a better slideshow enough to pay a few dollars for one.

  • CATHY…

    i am not quite sure what you mean by showing your work…i have been interested in looking at your work ever since Road Trips days and have done so and with private critique as well…you may also put a link here anytime for group feedback…many used to do that, but for some reason that has stopped….if by showing , you in fact mean publishing, that is another story…i think you simply mean exposing to this audience or any audience…is that correct? or, do you simply mean critique?

    in any case, i understand your reluctance to show work…believe it or not , i am very reluctant to show my work as well…had i not become professional and paid/forced to show work, i am sure all of my pictures would be in a closet somewhere…even now i must be leaned on to show…i am always waiting for just the “right time” too and usually i feel there are more pictures to take before i show..fear might be part of it…now i only show my work to workshop audiences (again, i must) or make a magazine or book…there is generally no in-between for me…so, the point is , it is all personal for each of us…now Erica says she did go around and get feedback from many…that would not work for me, but it does work for her and for many photogs i know…of course there is a difference between feedback and endorsement and i think she was looking for endorsement…she can tell you….

    however, you may choose to do the same one on one experience or you may post a link here at any time…many photographers choose to just have one mentor who sees their work, and then they publish or show…this is up to you…so, as i have always said to you, post a link for all to see, or send me a link for private critique etc whenever you feel the time is right…

    cheers, david

  • David; “e-books will become the future for mass distribution”

    So do you think that in the end there will only be the two levels of publishing? E-books and limited edition books? It seems to me that you think limited editions are the way of the future?

    Yet when it comes to e-books I can’t see how Larry Towell’s Mennonites and Front Porch books would work as well as e-books? They seem to be a sort of cross between limited edition quality and main stream publishing?


  • All photography on the Internet is disposable. And therefore less valuable. And I don’t think you can invent a virtual container for it that will give it real value in consumer’s minds……….. Luv it…….

  • DAH,

    Yes, I think you understood. Exposing to an audience is what I meant.

    I was responding to Eric’s comment to you that he…
    “used to really enjoy when you were sharing bits and pieces of your own work with us…of course not to divulgue it prematurely”
    It was the “divulge it prematurely” part that motivated me to comment.
    Wondering where the fine line between “premature” and “mature” (or ready to show) is.

    Your response about reluctance to show is what I was asking about.
    I’d also like to hear from others regarding exposing work to an audience.

    I will look forward to hearing what Erica has to say but I imagine she was extremely discriminating in who she asked for feedback.

    I never felt the need to wait for the “right time” before but perhaps I should have. :))
    You know what they say about first impressions.

    I am well aware that you and many others are happy to view my photos and VERY MUCH appreciate that.
    I absolutely look forward to doing so.

    Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

  • On the Cathy DAH thread,
    DAH I am mighty relieved to hear you have a natural reluctance to show. The driving force to show, the extra push is provided by the paid/professional aspect. Often when shooting commissions, I get out, get the job done, load it all up to the hard drive, start sorting/editing/adjusting get that done, then I have a real lack of confidence/reluctance to let the work go and it will take a few days for me to get the dvd in the post. So often when it lands on the commissioners desk the response is immediate and positive and all my worries are dissolved.

    I am in the process of getting an exhibition ready at the moment, it is due to open next weds. I have procrastinated and dithered but now finals are decided and I must just go for it but still dreading it. It feels almost too boastfull/egotistical to have and exhibition just by me, I wish it was just about the work and that in someway I wasn’t involved. I have had exhibitions in the past and inevitably things work out fine, but the run up is excrutiating.

    Funnily enough i don’t feel the same pressure when exhibiting on the interthingymijig….




    well, first of all , congratulations on your show…nothing better than an exhibition…even better than a book in some ways in terms of gut reaction to the work, although ultimately ethereal as it comes down just as it went up…yes, as you say, the run up is excruciating…you get to a certain point of commitment and then you just have no choice but to go forward….


    for sure i do not think that printed books will disappear and will in fact flourish on an even higher plane than they are now…human nature dictates always a boutique business…no matter how much the masses are satiated with material for free and easy etc etc., there will always be the discriminating buyer..exists in everything we know…i do not think one thing precludes the other…for example Larry’s Mennonites would be what i would classify in the limited edition mode…it could also exist as an e-book, though for us probably not as satisfying…for some it might be fine…whether a photographer chose an e-book model or a limited edition model or both would just be choice ..or perhaps economics..not much difference in my mind between and e-book and a printed magazine…most printed magazines are read once and thrown away just as the internet is disposable..few magazines are kept..Natgeo being the sometimes exception..they are kept, but does anybody really go back and re-read? it is a quality of manufacture that is probably the reason they are stored in the attic..nobody can bear to throw them away simply because of the manufacturing, not necessarily the content…

    in any case, i think readers will buy disposable internet products so to speak..just as they pay for television which is as ethereal as content can get or their daily newspaper which ends up as a fire starter or fish wrap…the internet and television will meet sooner rather than later…and none of it is going to be detrimental to the high end of print display….

    as Imants said, multi-media shows have been around forever..even my first grant was to produce a multi-media show 40 years ago…crude yes by today’s standards, but a multi-media show nevertheless…in any case, i think that very small companies who can produce good content will be able to sell this content either to the consumers or to sponsors….it is impossible to imagine a world where there was no quality content…again, just against everything we know about human nature…and , yes, human nature is the only thing to think about in all that we discuss…biz will follow human nature….not the other way around….

    cheers, david


    yes, Off For A Family Drive will have a film or video component..just as Living Proof, Divided Soul and Cuba…the exhibitions for all do have flat screen presentations of either the making of or a film in an of itself..and television shows for all as well….i have never not made multi-media shows since i was in my early one point it was three carousels tied together and with black slides and a reel to reel tape recorder, but it was multi media…as you well know, Michael’s job at any workshop is to create a rough multi-media slide show at the end of every class…we are only limited by what the students can do in a few days…some do it quite well as did John Bush whose essay was here recently…i think that young photographers are becoming more sound savvy all the time and i rarely do a class now where at least some of them are doing quite sophisticated sound capture….

    yes, both of my sons do broadcast television documentaries and occasional features…i do leave them to their own territory of course, but Bryan and i did work on a Cuba film together…he is at this very moment on a long world wide project where he is shooting with his hi def video camera AND shooting some stills and video with the 5D…Erin was nominated for an Emmy this year for his documentary Gorilla Wars in Rwanda and has now spent the last few months on an Obama and the press movie….both men are constantly in demand, so there is certainly no unemployment in their biz which might tell us something…so, there is my proud dad comment for the year!!

    cheers, david

  • Even if there is no money there still will be, there is, there was quality content…….some people have a passion no matter the cost. There are those that gain others the luck may not fall their way and there are those that seek the new.

  • “in any case, i think readers will buy disposable internet products so to speak..just as they pay for television which is as ethereal as content can get or their daily newspaper which ends up as a fire starter or fish wrap”

    Few people would actually buy television programming (at its true cost) if they actually had to directly plunk down the dollars to fund the garbage that appears there. It’s only because they pay for it indirectly by buying overpriced advertised products at the grocery store that they are “willing” to do so.

    And fewer everyday are willing to but the disposable news in a daily newspaper.

    There is an old saying that was popular in reference to the web before the rise of the “commercial internet” in the mid 1990’s. Information wants to be free. Attempts at changing that dynamic have not been very successful in the last 15 years.

  • Podcasts from iTunes are for free. You cannot actually buy them.
    However, iTunes has other channels to sell documentaries. I believe the business model for content will change over the years. There will be a big chung of small content for free. There will be a lot of (relatively cheap) printing on demand. And there will be exclusive and expensive “Hardware” editions. i.e. Books.

    The internet is the “free” mass distribution channel. Whatever content one creates, there will always be someone doing it for free. However, quality and exclusivity will cost money. That is a model customers understand.

    The business model for documentary work may change. That makes things in some areas easier, in some areas one needs to adapt. (See the music industry as an example of bad adaptation)
    I could imagine to have constant channels for free (Twitter, Facebook, Podcasts, Youtube…) to show the competence of the documenter, creating small snipets to feed the curiosity. (In essence a marketing, advertising medium)
    The second channel would be the classical mass-media: TV, Magazines
    The third channel are books.
    A fourth channel now develops: eBooks, paid downloadable content, often supported by TV Stations or other Media Companies, but it also opens the possibility for individuals. The limits are just by technology, which is relatively cheap. eBay might become a distribution channel for paid content.

    By using the “free” channel – one may drag the people into the other channels. This has the advantage, the message gets distributed and the people who are really interested also pay. The ones who embrace this model early will have an experience advantage over all others.

  • a civilian-mass audience


    Grecoland …problem with the internet connections…
    western area affected …PANOS …only landlines…

    we are really out in the bushes …oime
    I will be back … at least we have radio …

    be back…one day …I hope soon

  • a civilian-mass audience



    IMO , Thomas is about right…yes, information does want to be free, particularly educational information… will be free….should be free….what i am talking is not pure information, but quality AUTHORED content and the derivative spin offs…books, prints, etc……again, similar to pay tv…

    cheers, david

  • i´ve been jiggling with my website..
    not got a podcast section as yet :ø)

  • I’d say make the layout fluid or widen the columns. Not many folks are using 800×600 monitors anymore and your page is scrunched up in the middle of the screen. The huge expanse of white that remains on my 24 inch monitor is blinding.

  • cheers jim..
    trying to balance between laptop and desktop users..
    minimum i figure on is 1024×768..

  • David, even my 15″ laptop monitor is 1280 pixels. I usually design for 1000 pixels wide, which seems to be common these days.

  • Or, rather, design pages that are 1,000 pixels wide.

  • okay – thanks again jim.. will bear it in mind when i tuck into it again tomorrow.. have been working to an image size of 550 longest side.. will up it to 600 square..
    want to keep them relatively small..

    am off for the day soon..
    just watched ERICAs presentation again..
    very good..

  • thanks again..
    the monitor i have used is the same res as your laptop which explains the choice of slide-show size.. will set up a larger one tomorrow and tuck back into it.
    very helpful.
    have recently realized how many browser issues there were with it, which is in part why i began looking at it again.

    badly missing my broken archive HD as i´m so tired of the same old snaps being up there.

  • david alan harvey
    November 25, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    i am not quite sure what you mean by showing your work…i have been interested in looking at your work ever since Road Trips days and have done so and with private critique as well…you may also put a link here anytime for group feedback…many used to do that, but for some reason that has stopped….

    stopped? i do it all the time..:)))))))))
    not necessarily for critique, but mostly for the need to express…
    here expressing my love to my niece…

    anyway very slow internet for the last two days plus a mild form of pneumonia kept
    me out of the game ..but here it is.
    A form of expression regarding the love that i have for my little niece…
    Enjoy ..
    from the super slow ( at every level )grecolandia
    slideshow below:

  • David Bowen,

    I’m using a 13″ Laptop (1280×800), I think it is possible to widen.
    What I saw with your website, however was: if I had the page at the top, the controls below the pictures were hidden away. Shifting the whole picture upwards by 10 pixels should solve that.

  • thanks thomas.. it´s been a problem with tying to keep the slideshow frame square so that vertical and horizontal photos appear the same size..
    will see what i can do, although to find a balance between 13″ and desktop might be tricky.. formatting for a desktop would win..

  • david bowen,
    fair enough. It’s a shortcoming of the wide (laptop) screens to lose the space for vertical pictures.
    So optimizing of Desktops is good.


    Happy Thanksgiving!

  • Happy Thanks Giving ..

  • as an aside thomas – i´ve always wanted a remote controlled helicopter..
    you´re a lucky man.

  • DB

    Don’t know if this helps but I use a template created by, my web deseigner/host. They have me resize my pics to no more than 475 pixels in height saved at 9 instead of 12 image quality. Most of my pics on my website are horizontal so what makes them 475 pixels in height and 713 pixels in width. You can check it out by clicking on my name.

    By the way, I have no desktop and do everything on my MacBook Pro with its 17″ screen.

    David, I love the images in your homepage slideshow!


  • thanks patricia..
    slideshow pro, as a flash add on, resizes the photos to fit whatever sized frame i dictate.. so i just have them all 900dpi longest side and change the size in flash.
    i think the photos on your site are a good size.. going to push mine up to 600 longest side i think, on reflection of yours and jims words.

    ta very much

  • Jerome..:)
    loose… loose as this, is what i like..
    big hug

  • I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder about what is “loose” and what is “tight.” I wonder if there could be a bit of a discussion about this question. Yes, I appreciate seeing examples but I’d love to hear people speak in words about how they would define “loose” and “tight” in terms of photography. I know Panos posted a quote from Paolo Pellegrin in which he spoke of the value of “unfinished” photography that is suggestive, that triggers memories and such. In contrast he spoke of “finished” photography that is “closed…to which there is no way in.”

    How do you see it? Not so much in terms of the work of any specific photographer, but in terms of your own way of shooting. Is this concept of loose/tight, finished/unfinished in your mind as you work? If so, how do you get what you want?


  • Hey David B. You can go a lot larger if you like… You mentioned that you wanted to keep the images small, but I presume you are talking about the file size rather than the dimensions? Bigger isn’t always better, but in terms of viewing lovely photos… i’ll take ’em as large as I can get! I managed to push the images on my site up to 1500×1000 px and they load fine. Using the save for web function and saving at “60” should compress enough without any visible loss of quality, you can go lower if you need. 2OOkb images will load fine on a broadband connection… And thats all I worry about really… nobody is really using dial-up these days.

  • …nobody is really using dial-up these days…


    yeah right…the dsl in grecolandia is slower than dial up…way slower..yikes

  • i think erica has achieved some excellent loose compositions – even on the vertical – which also betray a talent for composition and an educated eye for the subject she is shooting – her own backyard.. where she has been for years.. persevering..

    the formal portraits, which are tight, blend for me – although i know not for some.. that blending is an achievement for me.. mixing the looseness of her street work with the tightness of the subjects narrating.

    the street work, which i prefer, is shot loose and edited tight far as i can see..
    way it aughta-be, ya see.

  • james –
    large is not a choice right now :ø)
    since i dropped my hard drive my digi archive is lost till i afford retrieval.. no larger files than those already existing on my website http://ftp.. i could try 900dpi.. that´s it.

    having to remodell it, try for some decent commissions.. fix the hard drive.. then change the whole site..

    the logical progression is there.. just a few little steps away..

  • David; “not much difference in my mind between and e-book and a printed magazine…most printed magazines are read once and thrown away just as the internet is disposable..few magazines are kept..”

    Ok; I get what you mean now. Yes; if you equate buying content over the net with magazines then I can see the similarity.

    I’m probably biased because I love books, but I am selective in what I buy. I hardly ever buy a magazine, but I still buy books. Instead of buying a mag or two per month I use that money to buy a photographer’s book from Amazon once every 3 months or so.

    Last book Larry Towell’s “Front Porch”; next one Sylvia Plachy’s “Self Portrait with Cows Going Home”…

    To read Towell’s books on a monitor would be the sensory equivalent of my mother saying “Are you coming round for tea tonight; we’re having a roast” and then serving up a tube of astronaut’s “roast in a tube” :-)

    David B; “…nobody is really using dial-up these days…” I wish! :-) I only live 8kms out of town and still can’t get dial-up here in NZ! I think they still use a couple of rats running on a treadmill to keep the dial-up going too! But as Imants says; we’re probably stuck in the 60’s here in NZ :-)


  • “yeah right…the dsl in grecolandia is slower than dial up…way slower..”

    that’s to match the way smaller plumbing …

  • as an aside (no. 2) this made me laff

    next up – on the toilet?
    insatiable, we are.

  • Chancey, I think that is the same bkk hotel by the way … location looks right on the map … funny …

  • i just checked and 4% of the people who view my site use dial-up.. probably not potential clients though.
    croatia was a beatch for t-internet..
    horrible.. was quite refreshing. really.

  • another thought..
    nue yawq is a pretty vertical place.. i wonder if that figures in ericas decision to shoot more dat way up? certainly feels claustrophobic for it.

  • what is “loose” and what is “tight.”

    Personally, i have seen too much photography lately (I do not mean on BURN, or just on BURN) where people seem a bit too tight (read self-conscious) about shooting loose! ;-)

    It is not enough to shoot loose, you have to be spontaneous as well. That poses the problem very well and can offer the solutions as well. Spontaneity puts loosenes where it belongs foremost: in your frame of mind, and the framing inside the picture must reflect that, not merely a way to shoot, loose or tight.

    BTW, I am not sure we talked about the same things on the multi-media treatment. It seems DAH thinks in terms of getting one’s photography across, ie. presentation to the public. Like, David, I have both your books, have not seen any CD or DVD in them. No music is hear when I open the pages…. :-(

    tell me I have not been ripped off! :-))))

    I thought we talked first as multi-media as THE final project, the way the artists, the photographer wants his/her art to be experienced.

  • Wide screens and their associated applications are killing off the portrait style

  • david bowen,

    oh yes. a helicopter is a lot of fun. especially the indoor type. and I am amazed, it took some research to find it, didn’t it? they are pretty cheap in Germany. If you like, I get one for you.

  • PANOS…

    yes, you do post links all the time…you are the exception i EVERYTHING!!


    yes, the “loose” vs. “tight” discussion is a good one and if were not 3:30am my time, i would get into it …actually , i did a post about it on Road Trips when i was shooting in India…you might be able to search it…simply put, Panos shoots loose, you shoot loose…..both of you are “there” but without being self conscious about over composing or being overly mannered/boring…there is a very fine line between being structured and unstructured and being tight and loose….Gregory Crewdson is structured/tight…Alec Soth is structured/tight…Alex Webb is structured/tight but with loose layering…Trent Parke is loose loose…Antoine d’Agata is loose loose..Paolo Pellegrin loose sometimes , structured other times…..loose can be sloppy loose(just bad) or loose with a flair (good)….how is that for confusing you? ok, time for bed…to be continued….

    cheers, david

  • David Bowen,

    Sorry to come across as BOTH a pedant and a tech geek, but it drives me crazy when people who should know better (and maybe do know better, but are being sloppy with terms?) use totally incorrect terminology to talk about digital image sizing. “900 dpi” or any other “dpi” does not refer to the absolute or even relative size of any digital image… digital image size is measured in pixels (not pixels per inch, just plain pixels)… image FILE size is measured in kilobytes or megabytes and is a function of pixel size times degree of jpeg (or other file format) compression. “Dpi” is about printing an image, it’s how densely the pixel information translates into the tiny droplets of ink the printer lays down on a piece of paper. And it is particularly an irrelevant term when talking about sizing images to be shown on computer monitors, since computer screens normally have ‘native’ resolutions anywhere from 72 pixels per inch (that’s ‘ppi’, not ‘dpi’) up to 100 and something… If we’re talking about how large the image should be that appears on a computer monitor, the only number that makes any sense to talk about is ‘pixels’… how many pixels along the longest side? As a teacher of photography, you have a duty to get this straight and not confuse either your students or other readers of Burn.

  • HERVE…

    you have confused me..what is your question exactly? multi media can be the final product…multi media can accompany a book…multi media can literally be inserted into a book….i have never literally inserted into a book, but have mm productions always to go with the work either online, on tv, or as part of the exhibition or all three….was that what you wanted to know?? yea, yea, late in BKK

    cheers, david


    i have no idea what either one of you are talking about…worse i suppose is that i do not even want to know what you are talking about…help, help…i do know however the difference between 35mm and 6×7…well, i gotta start somewhere…

  • a civilian-mass audience

    if you ever receive this message:

    I can’t see any essays…:((( due to technical difficulties
    and during these hours I feel how much I LOVE YOU and you are part of my civilian life…
    I can feel that something is tight …though …hmmm…but it ain’t me…
    cause I am LOOSE.

    P.S I have no idea what I am talking about …well
    “Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.”
    W. C. Fields
    I miss you ALL …KATIE,BURN street fighter …give us a sign …

  • Sidney

    Digital photographers will always have something useful to learn analogue photographers and vice versa. I don’t see the reason to get surprised that “we” know something “they” don’t know. And I think it’s a good thing that we all can learn bits and pieces from each other. I’ve felt an urge for a long time to get into a darkroom and start to learn what and how and why with all those chemcials.

    BUT the thing about whether you say dpi or ppi seems less important to me. Essentially they mean the same thing. And it’s not hard to understand why people get confused when photoshop use “pixels/inch” in the “image size” tool box.

    This link should be useful for all:

  • Jim,

    How much does your newspaper cost? How long do people retain it for before they throw it in the trash? I agree with you with regards to the tangibility of books and CD’s they are wonderful and I regularly buy them too. But I almost never buy a newspaper anymore, nor does my son or his friends. Any news is read on the net. I personally feel that these downloadable podcasts/digital books/publications or whatever you call them could be a new way of selling your work as a photographer. How much would you pay for the opportunity of viewing a new DAH story on your TV at home, either as stills or an AV presentation ?

    I think you and I become less important as consumers the older we get. The new generation of consumers are used to buying digital content online.

  • DAH

    it’s really very dull.. as webwork is right now for me.


    wrong to laugh as i riled you – apologies.. my bad.. a simple mistake between nursery, meeting grandparents and other chuff..

    to my students it would have been a ‘secret test’..

  • bjarte

    i got misconfumufuddled between image size (longest side in pixels), image size (dots per inch)
    just a stoopid mistake is all.. Sidney picked me up on it, and quite right too.

  • thomas – they have them in norway.. just i have no money.

  • ALL

    this will be brief :)

    first: HAPPY THANKSGIVING Y’ALL….tonight, dima and i are alone eating bbqchicken pizza and about to watch Scarface (marina is on a 10 day meditation retreat),…man’s thanksgiving ;)))….hope everyone is well and safe and surrounded by loved ones…

    second: i just got an email from a concerned person, so i thought i’d better make it CLEAR to everyone so that there are no misunderstandings about what i wrote to Erica :))…i wrote it yesterday in a fever after scanning film for a book to be pub’d in japan and writing writing, so i havent had a chance to go back and re-read what i wrote…when i wrote “so proud of you…and now i can leave in peace :))))”, i DID NOT mean ‘leave’ but ‘live’ ….maybe a freudian slip ;)))….it should have been “so proud of you…and now i can live in peace :))))”…because i knew how long, hard and often filled with scruggle this project was for her….live live in peace, not leave…

    lastly, quickly, about loose/tight….actually, i found this project to be the LOOSEST project ever that she has worked on and as i wrote, was certainly formed by the maturity and loosening of her vision and her ideas when she went to poland….her Vertical 35 mms are as loose as anything she has ever done and are visually, emotionally and conceptually….not only visually (those 35mm) but emotionally….those vertical 35mm balance the auster, tight lg format portraits…it is ‘tight’ conceptually (maintaining vertical pics to go better in synct with the square format) (something she and i have discussed since my big big asian project (and bones) contains 35 and med format)…..loose/tight is NOT ABOUT visual distinctions, but is about ideas, about how a photographer THINKS and conceptualizes both ‘how to photograph’ (how a picture should look or the relationship between camera/vision and subject/content) ….loose doesnt just mean ‘fuzzy, not classical framing, odd angles/clipping/light’ etc, but means the relationship a photographer has to making pictures and subjects….Panos is a loose loose photographer, all the way…me too, but tight photographers (thinking for example Roger Ballen, one of my FAVORITE photogs, or my hero Ralph Meatyard) are just as inspiring….i think of tight as this: they ‘know’ or ‘desire’ the picts to look/be a certain way: to make ‘predictions’…as sam abel wrote about: he thinks prior and waits and then gets the pic…while loose photographers allow the moment to dictate and tend to be less interested in what they ‘expect’ the pic to be than are juiced by what subverts their own ideas…well, more to write, but that’s it…..the world needs both kinds of picture takers and one thing that is ‘tight’ about me, is that i always think, hard, about my projects first…and then the actual shooting, editing, writing, i’m like: whatever the fuck it brings, it’s all good :))

    ok, off to scarface…


  • “But I almost never buy a newspaper anymore, nor does my son or his friends.”

    Small, local newspapers are in much better shape than larger newspapers so far. We are very local oriented, and a large percentage of the county population subscribes to our paper. The Texas Press Association says that is the case state wide with small, local newspapers. There are nine of those in our group. The larger newspapers in 100,000 plus population cities are having a very tough time, though, and a lot of those readers get there news from the websites rather than the dead tree product.

    The problem is that nobody can figure out how to make enough money from newspaper web sites. Until/unless there is some major new dynamic created for making sufficient money online, the outlook is pretty dim for newspapers in this country. Which is part of the larger problem I described. Digital format information is just not considered to have much value.

    If we talk about photography specifically, with the current technology, I would be unwilling to pay for a digital version of even a DAH book…but, I’ll buy the dead tree version in an instant!

  • And pinch hitting for Panos tonight, let me leave you with this deeply interesting website:

  • Jim..that was funny…
    GOD SAVE THE QUEEN ( shrimp )

    “God Save the Shrimp…she aint no human being”

    God save the queen
    The fascist regime
    They made you a moron
    Potential H-bomb

    God save the queen
    She ain’t no human being
    There is no future
    In England’s dreaming

    Don’t be told what you want
    Don’t be told what you need
    There’s no future, no future,
    No future for you

    God save the queen
    We mean it man
    We love our queen
    God saves

    God save the queen
    ‘Cause tourists are money
    And our figurehead
    Is not what she seems

    Oh God save history
    God save your mad parade
    Oh Lord God have mercy
    All crimes are paid

    When there’s no future
    How can there be sin
    We’re the flowers in the dustbin
    We’re the poison in your human machine
    We’re the future, your future

    God save the queen
    We mean it man
    We love our queen
    God saves

    God save the queen
    We mean it man
    And there is no future
    In England’s dreaming

    No future, no future,
    No future for you
    No future, no future,
    No future for me

    No future, no future,
    No future for you
    No future, no future
    For you

  • JIM..

    killing trees to publish pictures or burning coal to keep the net going….hmmmm, both the same i guess…at least trees are renewable…takes a few million years to turn those trees into coal for electricity to support the net…you and others might not buy pics online unless for perhaps a whole umbrella site that just included the best of the best for a few cents a month or something….check your electric bill right now and consider the amount of time you spend on Burn…more than a few cents per month i am sure…anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that this will all shake down into some form of payment plan for content providers and producers either through subscriptions or sponsors….it just has way or another..but, i am totally with you on the “value” of hard copy….i want something i can touch…..if the power goes out , i can light a candle and read a book or view the Minamata essay…i hope we can get Burn into print before the grid comes unglued….as soon as i get home i have to split wood…get a fire going in the fireplace…burn a tree…well, i guess i will just have to plant one too….

    cheers, david

  • 3 weeks later…in grecolanandia…
    i just got on a scale…to measure weight…
    “pre-obese”…15 pounds ( full of mythos and feta and lamb ) over the limit…
    bad news
    ( im going to shave the mustache to detract lose some weight..immediately )
    good morning from the country of sunshine..

  • 40 years ago.. my lai
    “A little over 40 years ago Ronald Haeberle walked into the offices of the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio, clutching a set of pictures that were to change history. He held in his hands photographs of people’s bodies lying in the dirt of Vietnam who had been killed by US soldiers.”

  • JIM, DAH:

    I struggle to envision what form “paid for” online content will take to replace the quality and experience of looking at hard copy.

    There are already forms of paid for online content, but while they have the information, they totally lack the experience of spending time with hard copy, be it a book or magazine.

    It seems to me that everything is up in the air at the moment – the print industry struggling, and online content not really improving enough to replace the magazine or book in an acceptable way. I would guess that we need to go through another generation or two before people accept digital publishing as the main format and print as secondary.

    Burn is a great example of how digital content can work successfully to a point, but as Jim has emphasized, it’s all free and that is the problem. A print edition of Burn (either a one off, or annual or bi-annual etc) would help to give a much needed permanence to the whole thing.

    The day when you walk into a book store and the shelves are lined with SD cards or something similar containing digital books is a long way off hopefully.

  • I think the only model likely to work, Justin, is the cell phone, unlimited talk, concept. You buy a device (advanced several generations Kindle like device) and then pay a fixed rate – say $50 a month – for all the digital content you care to consume.

    But that idea isn’t going to really catch on until most of us are dead, because you need consumers that have never really known anything but vaporous, disposable content.

  • Just a little diversion,
    I still use my lupe, even if it’s to help me track down a splinter.

  • appropos of splitting logs, burning coal and paper and appropos of nothing…

    something on the importance of planting trees….from tarkovsky’s final film, sacrifice

    by the way, for my sister-in-law’s 40th birthday, my brother bought her a red dogwood and planted in fron of their home….

    tree giving is (for me) about as important as it gets…on par with giving books and hugs


  • Patricia

    As long as tight shooters are not UP-tight, and loose shooters not loosey-goosey.

    Sometimes I do try to force myself to shoot looser, usually with not much success. I’m a pretty straight ahead kinda guy.

    I think it’s kind of a right brain left brain thing, like playing music from the notes, or improvising. Your head is in a whole different place.


    nobody said loose was necessarily better..and whatever you are doing is just fine and you are happy…anything wrong with being happy?…your music analogy is just perfect…

  • I’m still unclear on the tight/loose distinction. David Alan Harvey seems to be saying it’s the difference between carefully composed and not so carefully composed. Bob Black seems to be saying it’s the difference between well thought-out before shooting and not. David’s definition (if I understand it correctly) makes more sense to me, at least as a tool for criticism. With Bob’s, there’s no way one could look at a pic and know whether the photographer planned it out or not. Yea, Panos’s photos look loose to me, but I don’t know him personally and it’s conceivable he might meticulously plan all those loose looking shots, thus making them tight by Bob’s definition. Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing.

  • ALL…

    i will be off line for the next 30 hours or so..flying from Thailand back home….i do want to get into the loose/tight discussion, but must go into travel mode….back soonest…carry on…

    cheers, david

  • I’m still unclear on the tight/loose distinction

    Michael, usually, like most, if not all, creative artists, a photographer will/should not try to over-define how he/she gets into the action, the zone, as you guys say.

    In the case of Erica’s essay, it sure does not matter. the street shots may well be loose (to the viewer, I am not sure she’d care to qualify them as anything. I wouldn’t, personally), and the portraits tight. yet, when you have said that, you have not said much about what she achieved, or what she is working towards to achieve, consciously or not.

    David always makes good points, because he is no sectarian. He uses loose as an adjective, so to speak, an injunction, more than a style, a goal. He (IMO) will accept super tight, even crispated, if you or your photo make that point to him. That is, beyond the fact that the shot or your photographic stance is obstinately loose or tight.

    I am also reminded he often sees emerging photographers missing stuff, or leaving a spot, at the most inopportune time.

    Indeed, what is the point of shooting something loose or tight, if THE shot was behind you, across the street, or 1/10th of a second later.

  • Like most dualistic classifications, ‘tight’ vs. ‘loose’ can only be taken so far in understanding what is going on. Still, it’s a useful way to approach both photos and shooting styles, to a certain extent. Michael Webster, rather than being unclear about this, I think you understand perfectly… the fact is, ‘tight’ and ‘loose’ mean different things in different contexts, and to different people. I think we can pretty much broadly agree on what they mean in general, but in the real world things get complicated. It would be a big mistake to equate ‘tight’ with ‘rigid’ (though they do frequently go together, unfortunately), and equally misleading to equate ‘loose’ with ‘supple’. Tight can be supple, and loose can be very clumsy and insensitive. So forget value judgments (except for personal ones, of course!). And even the music analogy goes only so far. As a musician, I sometimes play set pieces tightly, and sometimes very loosely. And ditto for improvisation. Maybe the real litmus test for ‘tight’ and ‘loose’ is an internal one… you know it when you’re doing it.

  • You know the old saying about grammar? Words like “adverb,” “adjective,” or “past pluperfect?” You don’t need them to be a writer. You need them to talk about writing. I think it’s the same thing with photography. You don’t need to define “tight” or “loose” to be a photographer, but it’s handy to have those definitions if you want to talk about photography.

    So here’s an example. I took these pics this morning so I remember my thought processes:

    I planned to get up a 3 a.m. to take some shots for a current project. But I stayed out late and when the alarm went off I realized I’d be crazy to get out of bed at 3 a.m. What was I thinking? So I wake up feeling chipper at 6 a.m. and figure it’s still dark enough to get my shots, and that proves to be true, but I still don’t feel like it so I find myself riding around drinking strong coffee and blasting the stereo in the far reaches of Brooklyn. Then I realize I’m in a place where I’ve got an ongoing project, albeit something of a half-assed one. Then I think about a particular wall I’ve photographed and start looking for that wall. In the meantime, I’m on the lookout for similarly tagged walls. Then I find just such a wall. The light’s very interesting. I take a few photos.

    So does that background have anything to do with whether the resulting photos are tight or loose? They’re not exactly planned but they’re not exactly spontaneous. And although they’re only pictures of a wall and don’t require any Cartier-Bresson like insight into the nature of the moment, I do have a particular lens that I use for just such subjects at just such distances, a camera that’s good in low light that I bought much for that purpose and I’m out at fucking dawn on the day after a holiday, so it’s not entirely a question of luck. Are those photos “loose” because I had no idea I was going to shoot that particular wall when I left home or “tight?” I don’t think so.

    If I were defining the terms, I think I’d say none of that intellectual stuff should have anything to do with it. Using those photos as examples, I can’t imagine any paradigm in which they could be classified as “loose.” So I think I’d define tight the old-fashioned way. The composition is “tight” if the framing excludes extraneous elements. Telephoto lenses typically capture “tight” photos. Wide angle would typically be more associated with “loose.” Though obviously that’s only in general since my wall photos were taken with a wide angle lens and if they’re not “tight” I don’t know what is. I’d think “loose” would refer to a composition in which the actual subject is more a small part of a larger scene.

  • Justin, Jim,

    the model of paid downloads works already for music, movies and other video-type of stuff.
    Look at iTunes, and there are other services where you can download legal content after you paid for it.
    I would not go for flatrates, as they kill the market before it even started.

    At the moment you can download the “magnum in motion” videos as podcasts for free – I am sure, that people would buy for the same or slightly longer show or if there is additional content.

    If the single item is cheap, you get the masses.

    I do not perceive either medium as exclusive. They are complementary.

    I have loads of paid downloads on my iPod, and my Harddrive. I look now and again into them, as I am looking into books. They are media on their own rights.

    Yesterday I skyped with a photographer friend asking who could support him creating slideshows of his stills, because his clients asking for it. Since I did such slideshows several times from my own work, I will support him for the time being.

    There is already a market. It is emerging.

    If, however, you do not value the electronic media, how could your potential customers?

  • David

    “nobody said loose was necessarily better..”

    Yes, although it is probably a useful excersise to try and push one’s self into un-familiar territory.

    Sidney, good comment…I totally agree.
    Pushing your musical analogy back to the photo realm, within a rigid frame-work, like formal portraits, we still hope to capture spontaneous expressions and gestures. Wether shooting formal portraits or doing street photography, I think we try to put ourselves in the frame of mind where we are able to recognize and capture the gift moments when they present themselves.

  • Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing……… loose/preconceived no longer matters it’s the edit

  • D.A.H. – EMcD, when you are planning a book, do you produce a book dummy (maquette)? I have read that both Alex Webb and Alec Soth use them and wondered what your opinions on the process of building one are. They sound like a really good way of focusing one’s mind on the final selection and layout.



  • Gordon L,

    Been meaning to ask you, how have you fared in the recent heavy weather? Today we are getting a welcome respite, and the sun is actually shining in my window at this moment, but we have had over a month of continuous storms, high winds, rain, and darkness, and your area in particular was hard-hit in the last week. Keeping your feet dry and your roof intact up there in Parksville?


  • Imants
    November 27, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing……… loose/preconceived no longer matters it’s the edit

    i think it´s been the case before digital as well.. fat chunks of film are always available on commission, and digital or film there is only so much my eye can take before it aches.
    editing, often neglected, is absolutely as important as the technique for photographing.. without that skill we´re all just snap happy flickr fodder.. certainly we could all appear as utterly different photographers if we chose to show different work.

    to decide how you´re going to shoot sounds alien to me.. you snap the way you do.. we have to weave the techniques which are demanded of ourselves instinctively.. through our subject and our life experience..
    no one is better than another.. no one has the monopoly on ´right´.. or ´árt´.. and with the craft as young as it is, the truth is that none of us know what will be remembered as photography grows.

    stretching the music analogy even further – the path which a tune takes when you start creating dictates the notes which follow.. organic and instinctive according to mood, nature and all that jazz.. i think it´s the same with photography.. weave what the situation – your situation – demands.. and if we´re lucky we´ll reach the musicians high of playing the sounds between the notes.. the harmonics.

    no judgments.. no need for fragile pedestals or austere towers.. just enjoyment and following what the photography wants us to do.. and what we have to do.

    thinking too much – and deciding too much – will become a prohibitive force in creating, as we each need to create in our own way.. to me, stretching ones boundaries and comfort zone is much more about inward traveling than it is about technique or ´knowledge´.. style or format.
    practice and passion will develop all of our work with a little introversion and geek behavior.. what ever the results will be, will be.
    a loose photographer is no more an ´artist´ than a tighter one..
    just as a preference for colour is no less artistic than black and white.
    just following what our photography demands of us.. and let others postulate and dissect their definitions of “art” before projecting onto us.


  • The tight/loose dichotomy is a standard discussion point in every medium. A popular term in literary criticism is cooked vs. raw:

  • Jim, Jim, Jim… again you’re wrong.

    Up until the latest recession (the last year), newspapers of all sizes were doing quite well. Circulation was hardly down at all, and most of the big papers were still in the black. Advertisers started pulling ads for online advertising way before people went in droves to the net for news. It was the economy forcing advertisers to take the cheap option (online), it wasn’t that that’s where people started going first. The internet still isn’t the way most people get there news…

  • i´m a goose photographer.

  • Jared, that is simply not true.

  • Thomas, do you really believe there is an analog between music/movies and photographer’s works? Relatively few people have ever bought photography books, for example, as is clear from the relative incomes of rock stars and photographers. :)

    My guess is that if Magnum could actually sell enhanced versions of their In Motion essays directly to consumers, they would be doing so. I doubt they would get many takers, though.

  • Am typing on the phone – but wanted to say re tight / loose, I do t think about it much. My comment about ‘loose enough for you’ to Preston was just a personal joke – I personally think there is a looseness in the 35mm, but I think of looseness for me more as an approach or working method – the images themselves can be more formal.

    Mike R – I made a blurb book dummy hLf way through and it was extremely helpful. I could immediately see what I wanted to cut, and I felt where I needed to go. And it allowed for a clear way to communicate what I was up to when I approached the people I did for input.

  • Hi Sidney

    Yes, we remained high and dry, thought there was some flooding in low laying areas near the river that runs through town. Sure nice to see the sun the past two days, though it means frost at night.

    David b

    I can’t really agree with you about “we all snap the way we do”. It’s not really that organic, at least not all the time. We make a huge number of choices when we photograph, deliberately and carefully, or haphazardly.

  • I’ve just recently started shooting digital, and the process of shooting is so different for me. Never mind the fumbling through menus and the distraction of being able to see what I just shot, I find myself shooting with less deliberation. I mean, in setting up a shot, thinking about what I want and how to get it, it’s the same. But once I start pressing the shutter, I end up squeezing off so many frames. I don’t know yet what to make of it. When I shoot film, I purposefully shoot each shot. But it’s not that way when I shoot digital. Maybe I’m missing the film advance lever…

    Anyway, the discussion of tight versus loose made me think of the difference I’m experiencing with film versus digital. I wouldn’t say film is tight and digital is loose for me. More like film can be either tight or loose, and digital is… easy? Not that I’m unhappy with my results, but I don’t enjoy the taking of a picture as much.

  • Digital isn’t “easy.” If you suck as a photographer with a film camera, you will suck just as badly with a digital camera.

  • hookstrapped said,
    “Not that I’m unhappy with my results, but I don’t enjoy the taking of a picture as much.”

    Which begs the questions then, “Why shoot digital?’
    If you’ve been ‘forced’ into shooting digital for economic or timeframe reasons why can’t you
    simply apply your film shooting habits and techniques to the digital medium.

  • That was a good question, mtomalty. It made me realize that since I got my digital camera I’ve used it to shoot the things I care less about, since I was learning the camera. And that’s why I got the camera in the first place, to shoot things I care less about — where economic and time constraints outweighed my ambition for the results. I got an Olympus E-P1 mainly so I can use my M-mount lenses, so it’s with manual focus and I avoid reviewing what I just shot. I’m trying to replicate my film shooting process, but it still boils down to the fact that if it’s something I care about I’m going to shoot film because I know how to get what I want with film.

    So, I guess it’s a learning process that I feel I’m still only a little way along — to be comfortable and confident is using digital. But then there’s the whole crop factor / depth of field thing which limits how useful my digital set-up is and makes me wonder if I can really get too serious with this set-up…

  • Jared, I have to agree with Jim about newspapers. They have been on the decline for some time.

    If I had tried to sell my small newspaper three years ago instead of four, I’d likely be sucking air. Circulation has been on the decline since the 1970s. Consolidation began not long after. The corporate profit model of short term stock profits over long term stability soon followed, or coincided with, consolidation. Cable news and the internet came along. Craig’s List was a huge hit to newspaper classifieds (a bigger source of newspaper revenue than you would expect). Google aggregated free content provided by newspapers, sold ads that were much cheaper, and gained billions, and billions, and billions in revenue while the revenue stream for the actual content provider shrank. If Associated Press, which is a cooperative of media organizations, had developed an exclusive Google-style news aggregator model, as some suggested, then newspapers would be in much better shape now. The few large corporations that own(ed) the majority of U.S. publications further stifled the ability for publications to innovate in an industry that was already conservative to the extreme in that regard. Yada, yada, yada.

    I do believe the small town publications will survive for some time, especially weeklies, or at least until the requirement for newspaper legal publications is pulled (that’s sort of a joke but it will be the (or “a”) next nail in the coffin). The large corp. that purchased my small paper was specifically targeting small papers for acquisitions seeing them as a stabilizing revenue stream.

    While everyone talks about getting their news from the internet, very, very little news is produced first and foremost FOR the internet. People talk about the internet, though, as if it is an entity, rather than the complex multi-celled paradox that it is … it is nothing really, and everything at the same time. With the dramatic decrease in news gathering capability and infrastructure by the traditional media, where in the world will the news of the future come from? Citizen journalism has been shown to be the oxymoron it is. Google has little interest in acquiring news gathering infrastructure, and why would they if it is provided for free (although Murdoch is trying to ban googlebots from his sites), and the economic model of traditional advertising-based media has a broken back.

    I suppose a new model will emerge out of someone’s garage again but … it does seem like the end for traditional media because the only real money to be made is a few cents at a time in the aggregation for the world market.

    Maybe Jim would disagree and be less cynical about the future …

  • to shoot things I care less about ……..why bother……. that don’t care attitude must already be ingrained in your photographic work be it film. or digital

  • Oh and by the way, 2008 was the first year that more people said they received national and international news from the internet than from printed newspapers, (Pew Research Center poll), although that does not address the root source of the news which has always irritated me to no end concerning Pew’s annual survey.

  • This loose/tight, complete/incomplete,open/closed thing about photographs is still a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, it’s easy to see that Panos shoots “loose.” His images are so spontaneous, so of-the-moment, so instinctive. Kind of like free associating with a camera. Panos is just LIVING and as part of that “beingness,” he take pics. LOTS of pics. I doubt if Panos is thinking too much while he’s shooting. Man, he is just SHOOTING. Of course he’s using his educated, experienced, artistic eye when he composes a frame. But I think that’s more intuitive than intentional.

    Whereas Erica’s work has such a sense of underlying intentionality about it. You just know she comes to each shot with the overarching purpose of the entire project in mind. And yet many of her street images are wonderfully HCB-like in their capturing the “decisive moment.” I wouldn’t call her work “tight,” merely intentional, or to put it a little differently, well considered.

    As for myself, DAH says I’m loose like Panos. Well, yes and no. Maybe yes in my self portrait project but not so much in my current Blue Mirror project. With the mirror project I have a lot on my mind when I take every shot. First of all I need to instruct my subjects — most of them strangers I approach on the street or wherever — on how to hold the mirror so I can get what I want. Often that means posing them in certain positions so I can see their face in the mirror. Then I’m always conscious of the environment, the background, because I see these as environmental portraits. But most of all I need to focus my camera in exactly the right place, and that is on their face as it is reflected in the mirror. With my less-than-able hands, that is not as easy as it sounds.

    Well, you get the picture (pun intended). There’s nothing spontaneous about my Blue Mirror project. It is all about intentionality. If I can capture an unexpected expression on my subjects’ faces, I’m delighted. But that is rare. So I really wouldn’t characterize these photos as loose.

    Hope this discussion continues. I really want to hear a lot of different views on the subject. I would love to understand it better.


  • Pleeze chill’eren, loose or tight has more to do with where you are with your work. When you know what you are after it will always be tight. When you still are not sure and are working it out, it’ll will always be loose. When you run out of time and you have to produce, you will tighten it up. Not that it will satisfy, but it will do. I’d really rather be tight all of the time.

    Phew, does anyone understand this?

  • gordon..
    when i started out taking phots i made a lot of choices consciously..
    i really don’t anymore.. once in the mood it’s not so much making conscious choices as reacting subliminally.. i don’t know.. i know it when i feel it and when i am trying to choose i am trying too hard..

    i wonder if in part it comes down to the length of the project?
    certainly on shorter ones of a year or so i have felt more pressure to look and find rather than wait and see.. use technique rather than relax and shoot.
    the long projects tend to be looser as time is plentyfull and time is a great part of it..
    the exploration that is.
    practice and time.
    that’s for me in any case.. only one or two big choices ever bunch of years, and then

    i’m certain that ericas work could display a great deal more looseness if she chose to show that work – and that’s where i think the edit is important.. by balancing the looseness and introducing some tight shots it makes the piece feel in some way more sincere.. less frivolous.. asking us to consider on a different level. after all, most of us must end up with a wide range of tight and loose shots.. a whole bunch.. it’s in what we choose to show where our real selves can be seen.. our intention, motivation and inspiration.

  • pomara – with edits, definitely..

  • Young Tom,

    The newspapers have been in decline since at least the 1970s, I’m not arguing that. What I am saying is despite this decline, they still make money, even today and the internet has been quite a while now.

    Saying the internet “did it” is a cop-out for generally boring product (text and photos).

    (I posted some links earlier, must be in moderation)

  • Oh, and TV is still the main source as of 2008, way out in front of the internet and newspapers.

  • And I believe PEW’s research was strictly American, but I could be wrong.

  • David b – I can tell you I spent days just playing and experimenting, but for the most part those did not meet my expectations of a finished image. What they may have done is help clarify what I wS after. Maybe what PAtricia is saying about intention is largely on target.

  • Jared, yes Pew’s research is strictly U.S., and you are right, TV has been ahead for a long time now.

    Hmmm, surely yes some U.S. newspapers are still profitable, although not Rocky Mountain, Seattle PI, etc., which are no longer around in print, but every major newspaper I can think of has made huge cuts, many before the latest economic downturn, and the profit margin, if it is still there, has likely slipped into the margins comparable to the traditional grocer … is the gray lady profitable?

    But, if I understand your point correctly, I certainly agree that citing “the internet” as the sole cause of the demise of newspapers is of course overly simplistic. The great innovations tend to come out of the garage, not the boardroom, and with the modern exponential pace of change the inability to innovate invariably leads to a dead end much sooner than later. Even Google will likely fall when someone develops the newest chaos algorithm, or whatever it takes to get a decent search return that doesn’t include 30,400,000 results (“burn magazine”) in .09 seconds.

    I wonder what J schools are telling their students? How far behind is academia?

  • Schools reflect society so that can’t be too hard to figure out …….. most schools make a pretty good fist of things despite being under resourced information technology wise

  • I wonder what J schools are telling their students?

    At this point, from what I can tell, nothing different than 5 years ago, with the addition of “If you can figure out how to make money from the internet + journalism in the future, you’ll be rich,” kind of thing. You have to imagine that some of these teachers have been driven to teaching by these exact conditions and their constantly watching their friends fired, so there is a huge element of fear creeping into journalism classrooms…

    But really, Tom. How much does a newspaper need profit? We’ve been way over the point where profit directly influences content (in a biasing way) for a long time now. Maybe less profit is a good thing for whatever comes out of the ashes, no?

    What exactly is wrong with the NPR or BBC models, anyway? — besides the cry of socialism and Red China, etc, etc.

  • There are still plenty who take up J school, though most learn to adapt and take up other career options

  • I like Patricia’s view of tight and loose very much.
    In fact, it mainly explained it to me. :)
    Thanks Patricia!

  • a civilian-mass audience

    “In order to please others, we LOOSE our hold on our life’s purpose.”
    Epictetus (Greek philosopher AD 55-c.135)

    therefore be yourself !!! and keep the fire BURNing …
    submit WHATNOTTOLOVE !!!

    P.S BURNIANS focus …we are sending good energy to MR.HARVEY and to all the travelers ….

  • Patricia
    That’s a great blue mirror project, had me smiling and transfixed.

  • 13 years ago..
    time flies.

  • Patricia, the loose/tight, raw/cooked, Rolling Stones/Beatles debate in art is more about sensibility than working methods. One can be very deliberate about creating loose photos, just as one can be very casual about shooting tight. But in the end, it’s pretty subjective, categorizing one photographer as looser or tighter than another. DAH looser than McCurry? Certainly. Alex Webb is very tight, but he shoots spontaneous, casual situations. Miguel Rio Branco is very loose and Mary Ellen Mark is very tight, and they both photograph prostitutes, wrestlers, and performers — Branco just favors blurrier, less intentional photos. HCB is tight, but his images are playful. Bruce Gilden takes loose to a whole new level, but his working methods are the point of many of his photos. Robert Frank seems pretty loose, but is that because most of his pictures are out of focus, or because a certain casualness was pretty revolutionary at the time he shot “The Americans” and Jack Kerouac endorsed the book? Part of the loose/tight thing is also how the photographer wishes to be seen.

  • Nothing but neutral grey
    The raindrops blast on my window and the sky is nothing but neutral grey. Only for a short while I left my den this morning to venture out and get myself some grub. I opted for bread and so I steered my trusty swedish automobile towards my much loved bakery. As usual I asked for their tasty „spelt bread“ (my dictionary told me so ???). While the young lady was so kind as to cut the bread for me, I observed another shopgirl how she helped another customer from the shop window. They had installed a drive-in bakery and apparently there are people who use this kind of convenience. By the way the bakery is surrounded by numerous parking lots, but the gentlemen prefered to stay in his vehicle while he gave out very specific requests for his choice of bread and rolls. I was wondering if they had a menu placed in front of his car window?
    Back home I read an email from my friend Helmut. He informed me about a recently opened drive-in bankomat. Certainly a true novelty in Germany! Maybe nothing new in the rest of the world, but for us this is a little sensation.
    So now you can cash your money while you stay inside your car. Is this the end of wearing shoes? Will the polar bears die because we are too lazy to walk into a bank or a bakery?

    The growing thirst for convenience dawned on me the other week while I stayed with a friend of mine in Berlin. He got a minimum of 3 parcels delivered to him every morning: some digestive pills from a web based pharmacy, the most recent CD from Robby Williams, new boxing gloves, a rented video to watch plus the tickets of a coming rock concert next summer. Every morning it was like Christmas. A dream come true?

    Some month ago the newspaper I work for ordered a new rotary machine. A million Euro investment. For the coming 15 years even more trees have to go down. Mind you, this is not for creating heat! With this comittment the hope is connected that people will continue to pay for pieces of paper with letters and colourful images printed on them and the hope is still there, that the readers will keep on turning the pages, which is an extra effort as well. Is this the future until I will retire?

    Fancy linving today means that you press some buttons and set a display to the desired temperature of the room and that is it: done. Boring!
    During my adventureous times as a young lad in bonnie Scotland when life was easy and my camera of choice a handy Yashica T4, well, that was the time when I used to cut the wood all by myself. Let me reminiscent: my usual hang out in the Scottish Highlands is called Staoineag. Convenience at it’s best in the middle of nowhere: the water comes from a stream, which runs right beside the bothy and the water tastes very well with malt Whisky and the stream makes a great swimming pool during warm summer days. The outhouse is as you can expect outside. The furniture is basic – a few stones make a chair. The wooden floor is the mattress. Candles have to be brought in as well as food. If you run short on Whisky, the next hamlet is a days walk away on paths that sheep use most of the time. You might think this is a place without entertainment? Quite the contrary: the very own ghost of the bothy is included. Actually it is a female ghost. Ladies, please be extra careful! Better look by the fire place where you can find a little book from Robert Burns: My love is like a red, red rose…
    And yes, the idea of planting trees is long gone in that part of the world. Even the Romans knew that birds and squirrrels do it for free! Unfortunately they forgot about the sheep…


  • Reimar,

    The ‘drive-in convenience’ you are describing as a novelty is nothing more than Germany catching up with the North American suburban lifestyle that has been deeply entrenched here for at least two generations, if not longer. Many Americans live mostly in their cars and live for their cars, and outside of a few urban enclaves like Manhattan, Beacon Hill, or North Beach (regarded as hopelessly effete, prissy, snobbish, left-wing, and not ‘really American’ by most other people) our citizens have forgotten how to walk, and never did understand that urban life (sans private vehicle) could be pleasant, stimulating, relatively safe, even delightful (as well as convenient)… as it is in Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, and some other places.

    Because so much of American (and Canadian) life, not just the lifestyle, but also the housing patterns, the landscape, the patterns of work, production, and consumption… are all ‘hardwired’ to access based on private automobiles… and in many cases, only via private automobiles… it means that the whole society and economy are captives to the car. It’s not easy to change, because it means rebuilding both the hardware and software of the entire country. I speak as someone who has not owned an automobile for ten years, and has not flown on an airplane for the same time period.

    But the lure of the car, even in places where you would think nobody needs one, is apparently overwhelming. In Japan, which has perhaps the world’s best public transportation system, I was always amazed and discouraged by the fact that young people all dreamed of having their own cars, made great sacrifices to get them, and lavished exorbitant care and money on them. This in a country where there is no place to park, not even many places to pull off on the side of the road, where you can get anywhere you want to go via train, bus, ferry, or taxi, and where the traffic jams are horrendous. And car upkeep and insurance costs are astronomical. But because people wanted cars, and wanted to ‘do their thing’ in cars, they began rebuilding the Japanese landscape to accommodate them… big box stores and chain restaurants out in the suburbs, drive-ins, a recreation of an American lifestyle on a slightly reduced scale.

    Aside from the fact that this is all incredibly wasteful and destructive in terms of fossil-fuel energy and land use, I submit that it’s also totally counter-productive in terms of building a civilization that encourages a rich fabric of humane existence. Life based around cars substitutes road rage for civilized human encounter. Once the car meant freedom and mobility… today it has a very different meaning.

    Creating a planetary civilization that is energy-efficient and environmentally in balance but also rich in cultural life, encounter, freedom, and relative equality is clearly the major collective task for humanity in this century. But it’s not going to happen as long as people spend most of their time idling their engines in traffic jams or cruising around the block searching for a parking place.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    That’s what I call “critical thinking” !!!
    Tight ideas produced by loose brains …
    Thank you BURNIANS

    P.S I’ll be back …when I finish reading…
    I shoot me out

  • Reimar and Sidney, that was excellent, truly, and I could not agree more but please, don’t take my pickup truck. I am too much the hermit in the rainforest here already.

  • Yea, I never completely understood Americans’ infatuation with cars. The road though, that’s a different story, especially when you’re young and heading west on one, chasing the sun all the way to the Pacific, a hundred miles an hour, leaving the shithole you came from in the rearview. Books have been written. Songs have been sung. Maybe it’s an American thing. Tramps like us, you know. I can’t think of similar art coming from elsewhere.

    And I’m not so sure it’s entirely accurate that cars are not social vehicles, at least not outside the big cities. In a society dominated by television and video games, cars are about the only places where most Americans get any kind of social interaction in close proximity to others at all.

    Yea, it’s too bad it’s all so wasteful and is destroying so much of the world, but as long as people don’t pay the real cost of such exorbitance, not a lot is going to change.

  • Preston has again neatly parsed up the distinction, particularly since the entire loose/tight distinction (conundrum? ;)) ) is really not about what photographs look like but about the photographers relationship and ideas about what/why/how she photographs, as well as how they want their work and their practice to be perceived. To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers. Is Bruce really loose, though when watching him work one thinks that and yet he is in control, remarkably so, in terms of both the outcome and those he wishes to target and see along the streets of NYC, Tokyo or the beaches of Coney Island and Haiti or the forlorn startled homes in Detroit and Fort Myers that have been abandoned or foreclosed? Is street photography looser than studio/portrait photography? Is Avedon tight, i wonder if what makes his entire body of work so formidable and beautiful, though his ‘style’ and technique have been imitated and replicated ad nauseum, the extraordinary insight and beauty of his work has not be replicated. Is this from control or because he was remarkably loose and available to the moment of when and how to photograph a person….fleet of foot and eye. Too many think of this distinction as a visual one. Loose = fast, blurry/broken, natural framing, pics that seem spontaneous rather than constructed, etc, while tight seems to = the opposite. Does this even matter on ioda?

    I think it is impossible for any of us to speak about whether or not another photographer’s body of work (or picture or essay or project) is loose or tight and does it even really matter? All we can do is speak about our own practice and our ideas and their realtionship to how we photograph, how we compose, how we edit work (accept or reject images). Even David, as a teacher and extraordinary photographer, is unable to make this distinction but with a guess and instinct. What lends authority to David’s ideas about Alex or Paolo or Trent is that he knows them personally and has spoken with them and, at least to me, from that kind of relationship and conversation and knowing, can the guesswork begin. John vink shoots 100 frames a day (it seems), each and everyday (nearly) and it might take me 2 months to shoot 100 frames of film: who is looser? ;)….and does it matter at all.

    David’s use of the work (and others, including those of us who teach) has to do with a pedagogic tool, a way to stir up a conversation with another photographer to get them to reflect about their work, to re-see or reimagine what it is they are doing. This often comes out in looking at a sequence of images, editing pictures/essays/projects, or as a way to unlock what might be stuck in the head and body and eye of the photogrpaher when working. We’ve all been stuck (who aint? ;) ), and that loose/tight distinction is one mechanism that might help get a photographer to think, reflect about what it is she is doing, seeing, wishing to accomplish. I’ve used the same kind of distinction when speaking with my wife or close friends who are photographers when looking at work to see or figure out what works and what does not…and EVEN this is incredibly personalized. One’s looseness might be another’s loosey-goosey and one’s tightness might be another’s uptightness ;)))))….think of Pollack and Rothko: which is the looser painter….are you certain?…Pollacks work when looked at carefully is incredibly controlled, restricted and refined and when watches videos of him painting (at least the drip pics), it’s like watching the beautiful and melodic yet incredibly precise movements of a ballerina: it’s all body and gesture and movement. Rothko on the other hand sat in front of his pics for hours looking, staring, changing his mind, looking into canisters of paint, sometimes again and again, sucking up and away the color scheme that didn’t work from his canvas using towells and paper and blankets and starting again, rarely (but for the seagram thing and the rothko chapel) deliberately understanding which color relationship would go next.

    Photojournalism vs. Conceptual Art, which is more loose…are yu sure?…..frank vs. shore?…david works loose, loose, but his editing is as tight as one can imagine….having made 5 different edits of bones, as an example, they all accomplish different things, some liked by others, some hated…i dont even know if there is any edit that i am a fan of and i am the photographer ;)))…the Asian project, even crazier….who knows…

    I’ve spent time with David twice in real life, spoken on the phone a ton of times, exchanged 100’s of emails and of course conversations here and i dont think we’ve ever really sad down and talked about, specifically, our relationship to our work and what defines that as loose/tight….but we have talked about what we wanted to accomplish with our work, how we see other work, the successes and failures, etc…i think the discussion is a good one if it allows photographers to examine the ‘why’ and the ‘how’ (remember that chat Herve? ;)))))) ) of what it is they do…which, incidentally, may not have answers either….

    I think in the end, all that matters, whatever the distinction, is that a photographer grows and continually thinks and works and changes and distills what and why and how it is they’re a photographer, otherwise it’s gets tedious and we dry up. At some level, all this all works at both an intellectual level and an instinctual one…and then there’s that small tom-tom beat of joy: the joy of just making pictures….of making pictures and looking at pictures, and whether or not we are loose or tight, hopefully that swelling drive is ultimately the one which guides each of us on our own missions….each of us our own place in the world and each of us toward whatever way it is that makes sense, to learn to feel what it is we need to simply be at peace with what it is we do…..and that’s, beyond loose and tight, the best distinction in the world for me…


  • Panos is just LIVING and as part of that “beingness,” he take pics. LOTS of pics

    Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all). For example, Is Panos interested in how he shoots more than the photos produced?

    What if he shoots “loose”, but edit tight? ARGHHHH?!?! ;-)


    “Thinking”….. So many times, little thinking is going on when I/we press the shutter. Even anticipating a shot. And I suppose that is the reason why the magic in taking a picture is ever-renewed . That tiny moment when all is left to have something that did not exist, that was not, exists and be.

  • i think the discussion is a good one if it allows photographers to examine the ‘why’ and the ‘how’ (remember that chat Herve? ;))))))

    yep. that it is the ‘what’ that is always the most important in being an artist. What are you doing? what is your purpose? (Wether you wish to answer or not).

    Je ne cherche pas (why? how?), je trouve (what)…

  • Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all
    herve – thats is the question for all of us i think..
    of the tens of thousands of photos from electronic music i have snaped, i am trying to cut down to 150 or so. yet i want to show 500.. sometimes.. and other times it’s looking bland to show so many.

    a tight edit of loose work is going to show people more of what i want them to see, a presentation of many looser images will show more about how i got the 150 and where my finger was on the shutter button..

    i cannot speak for panos or anyone else, but for me a tight edit, taken from many thousands, will be more interesting than a whole bunch slung together..
    but then there are exceptions of course.. so maybe the long edit? blah blah.. many more choices come to mind now i am editing tan eve did while i a shooting the proect..

    an edit of 500 photos would be 0.75 photos, or there about, per event i documented.. the need for a tight edit when you shoot a great volume is not just for artistic or conceptual reasons – it’s often the most pragmatic solution. telling the difference between sloppy and loose is KEY in our own work.. yet i also agree with bobus..
    “To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers.”
    it’s not for us to disect each other.. if anything we’re just about encouragement.
    let the art buying public project the idea ‘artist’ on to us if they choose.. lets just pleae take pictures in volume.. think in bodies of work rather than stories. a see where we are at the end of it.

    as an aside.. i have not read back al replies as yet.. nor all of bobs post.. will do.. just on the conyac now. film starting.. relatives over.. i cooked a huge meal.. we’re sleepy.. drining.. thinking..

  • Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all
    herve – thats is the question for all of us i think..
    of the tens of thousands of photos from electronic music i have snaped, i am trying to cut down to 150 or so. yet i want to show 500.. sometimes.. and other times it’s looking bland to show so many.

    a tight edit of loose work is going to show people more of what i want them to see, a presentation of many looser images will show more about how i got the 150 and where my finger was on the shutter button..

    i cannot speak for panos or anyone else, but for me a tight edit, taken from many thousands, will be more interesting than a whole bunch slung together..
    but then there are exceptions of course.. so maybe the long edit? blah blah.. many more choices come to mind now i am editing tan eve did while i a shooting the proect..

    an edit of 500 photos would be 0.75 photos, or there about, per event i documented.. the need for a tight edit when you shoot a great volume is not just for artistic or conceptual reasons – it’s often the most pragmatic solution. telling the difference between sloppy and loose is KEY in our own work.. yet i also agree with bobus..
    “To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers.”
    it’s not for us to disect each other.. if anything we’re just about encouragement.
    let the art buying public project the idea ‘artist’ on to us if they choose.. lets just pleae take pictures in volume.. think in bodies of work rather than stories. a see where we are at the end of it.

    as an aside.. i have not read back al replies as yet.. nor all of bobs post.. will do.. just on the conyac now. film starting.. relatives over.. i cooked a huge meal.. we’re sleepy.. drining.. thinking..

  • “Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all”
    if h.s. thompson brain farted everything it would be the dullest read.. by working his ‘random’ within boundries he achieved much more..
    even though in the end he became a washed up clich, and a cartoon paody of himself.
    seeking fame and finding it will do that do a brain

  • It’s a complex thing, the loose/tight thing. Something I’ve never resolved about my own photography. I shoot really loose most of the time, because I like to shoot in situations where there are a lot of people and a lot of activity going on. People and events move by in an uninterrupted stream, which I generally don’t interrupt when I shoot. But, when I look at the resulting photos they are for the most part very tight… tightly framed, individuals or small groups isolated from the crowd, almost formally composed. There is no effort to achieve that effect. Whatever results in this is internalized and not a conscious decision at the time I press the shutter. I suspect this is the same with many photographers.

  • “pedagogic” – first time i have read that word outside of norway.

    beate is a pedegog leader.. job title :o)
    nice one.

  • “There is no effort to achieve that effect. Whatever results in this is internalized and not a conscious decision at the time I press the shutter. I suspect this is the same with many photographers.”
    ’tis for me jim..

  • Sidney,
    yes, I guess we are way behind indeed! Not having a car is the most consequent action. Like hermit Tom I can hardly seperate from my vehicle… but we have to save the polar bears!

    well said and well expressed! Yes, it is intellect and instinct coming together!

    And as Herve said
    “so many times, little thinking is going on when I/we press the shutter. Even anticipating a shot. And I suppose that is the reason why the magic in taking a picture is ever-renewed . That tiny moment when all is left to have something that did not exist, that was not, exists and be.”
    I coudn’t agree more!

    Jim’s description of his loose shooting sounds familiar to my approach.

    So I guess we all have our own definition about tight or loose photography. Good discussion!
    On the bottom line I feel I got more loose over the last years. Burn certainly had an influence on my attitude. Too many times I tried to wear a tight corset. It just didn’t fit me. For me loose is not only connected to the final image, but also to the way I feel, the way I handle a situation, my personality perhaps. Beiing tight means to me wanting a lot, demanding the image to be exactly how I want it, to be greedy for a great image. But as most humans my desire is not always successful. So I feel the really good images come in a rather loose, almost in an unexpected, easy way. It is a gift and we are sometimes open and able to catch it by pressing a button…

    It is still raining…

  • ………and I don’t care I just do stuff and post stuff

  • “………and I don’t care I just do stuff and post stuff”

    that made me smile. i work hard at not caring, and caring at the same time, working to be loose and controlled together but i cannot define any of it, it’s a feeling, and most often a failing caught in the trap of overthinking.

  • or is that flailing …

  • I shoot from my feeling….
    my intuitive…
    I still shoot film,
    so I am careful with my framing….
    $12 for 36 exposures….
    I gotta be thinking…
    I love my M6 and provia…

  • wendy, dogs on rooftops :))

  • But if you don’t care , how can you expect anyone else to give a toss?

  • Regarding loose and tight; I had an experience today regarding both. I’ve spent the last two days shooting at a local A&P Show (a country fair) solely for my kids project (and last weekend at another show).

    Whereas today I had to shoot a selection of images for an article about the show; mostly stock-type images (no pun intended!) of “typical” events, rides, sideshows etc. All images had to be very “to the point”, tight and a bit didactic I suppose. Typical newspaper-ish stuff I suppose; cute kid cuddling lamb etc…

    The work for my own project was much looser and followed the kids of three different families as they prepared their calves, cows etc for showing (and as they played around of course). All loose “spur of the moment stuff. I also took some images of the kids for the article but found it difficult switching back and forth from “magazine mode” to “personal mode” as different things occurred.

    I’ve also noticed how hard it is (for me) to shoot with the Holga and digi at the same time. A bit like “mag mode” and “personal mode” I think. Anyone else have similar occurrences? Maybe I’m just a typical male unable to multi-task! :-)

    One thing for sure; it was way more enjoyable shooting the personal work! It was certainly at the other end of the spectrum from shooting the late night music scene! I think I had just about forgotten what shooting in daylight was like! :-)


  • don’t give a toss about lose tight whatever……… never stated that I expect anything

  • ……. if the audience says your work is tight that’s how it will remain perceived……… if they reckon it is crap it is crap as you are not getting through to them……….

  • I couldn’t care less about loose or tight, its either good or it isn’t. Ive seen a lot of loose crap, and a lot of tight crap. And vice versa.

    On another note, I’m still mulling Erica’s essay over. I’m really undecided as far as liking it or not. I can say for now that I am really not a fan of vertical framing and that it is giving me a hard time in being as enthusiastic about the essay as almost everyone who praised it.

  • Then you must be blind. Even Helen keller could see the quality in this.



    you are now one of my priorities for getting your work up here on Burn…so let’s see if we can carve out some time this week to get your work down to something manageable…


    like you, i do not care if work is loose or tight…besides, there are so many other factors anyway…for me personally i am much more interested in the emotional texture than i am in the composition per se…however one can achieve the kinetic energy to make a viewer “feel” is my personal interest..this of course may not be the goal for others…many artists in fact do try to do the opposite and take out all emotion as if emotional context was not “artistic”…if i tried that , it would just not be me…so i am stuck with it no matter how the critics view it…i would say on top of all of this that when i am working i am not at all conscious of trying to make a photograph to appeal to anyone else…ironic since so much of my work has been published in the mass media…whatever appeal i have had to any kind of mass audience is purely coincidental with my intentions while making the photographs…somehow i sensed early on that if i tried to appeal , i would not appeal…

    many photographers have shot quite successful verticals….i have made about 4 or 5 verticals in my whole life where i made prints after and those were all in my early years…two of those are among my best selling collector prints…but, if i went out right now to make photographs, i definitely would not shoot a vertical..however, not conscious effort, and i have nothing against them, i just do not make them instinctively…one format i have not tried for years is square…back in university days i made a lot of squares and sometimes do feel it would be interesting to explore again..we will see….

    cheers, david

  • HERVE…

    having worked with Panos, and having seen hundreds of his pictures as prints, i would say he does not consider the editing process at this point…he simply likes shooting…and at this point, i think his instincts are correct…he should just stay raw…if he over thinks, he will blow the whole deal…he should be left alone to just react imo…

  • I have no issue with verticals. I shoot verticals as much as horizontal, though it isn’t a conscious decision. Some photos just seem “natural” as verticals, some horizontal. I think Erica’s vertical framing works very well for her images.

  • John,

    No, Helen Keller could not see any quality in it, or anything else, she was blind, but you knew that already and just made a crude and offensive remark using blindness as a punchline. It is something I would have expected from you, knowing your on-line personality.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    “Life lives, life dies. Life laughs, life cries. Life gives up and life tries. But life looks different through everyone’s eyes.”

    Welcome back MR. BURN…HARVEY !!!
    BURNIANS…keep rolling …keep shooting…

    AS a consumer I buy from my heart …tight,loose,vertical,horizontial,
    call my name…I’ll be there !!!

  • It’s interesting that some of the most fervent “loose or tight, it’s all good!” comments are from the loosest photographers of all!

    “…nobody said loose was necessarily better..”

    Strictly speaking that’s true. I’m unaware of anyone in these pages who would have been so crass as to say exactly that. However…

    There’s little question, I think, that “loose” is the preferred style by a majority here. And yes, there is, occasionally, a clique-ish feel about the place. “Travel” photography is generally mocked. “Straight” photography sniffed at. So, yeah, in essence “loose” is “better”. Take a trip through the featured essays and singles. What–mostly–do you see that has been chosen?

    Now, to be fair this is really not necessarily bad or wrong. It is what it is. This is DAH’s place. People by and large arrive here because they are attracted to him and his style. If Tom Mangelsen or Bob Krist had a similar online forum there would likely be far less “loose” photographers frequenting it. There might be more “What’s with all this blurry stuff?”

    But Burn is Burn. It’s simply not the place to visit to find “straight”/”tight” photography. And that’s OK.


    i do hope to connect this week with you as well…many thanks for all those singles…i plan to publish soonest….i am just now back on my front porch….world travel is terrific, educational, and provides a good world view..but,hard to beat just hanging out at home and only concerned with whatever is going on within sight of my front porch….which is ironically a new commission for me…yes, i am actually going to get paid to stay at home…now how is that for a commission? take care amigo, and we will skype soonest….

    cheers, david


    now wait just a minute..didn’t i just publish two pretty straight stories by both Glen Campbell and Michael Loyd Young? and do not forget, some of this so called “loose” is in the edit and the presentation….Erica’s work for example is pretty straight forward..if you just look at the pictures sitting on the table, you simply think are probably right that many come here because they may have known of my work, but i surely try try try NOT to have anyone with whom i meet, either student or anyone to event think for a nanosecond that they should emulate me…i have so stated many times that i genuinely appreciate many styles and kinds of photography…just for example: i love Imants approach which bears no resemblance to anything i would do…i learn from Imants…but, i do not imitate Imants…what i do share with Imants is an open mind and a desire to move way way outside the proverbial box….if Burn publishes a variety of material, then that does match my thinking entirely, even though it does not match my own photography style…

    you well know i want to work with you on your work…you are a pretty straight shooter…i will only push you and edit you on your own terms…i would not try to turn you into someone other than Michael…all i would do is to try and get you to explore your own so called straight boundaries..within your world of straight there is much more for you to explore…i think you would agree…so, let’s work on it…now, get straight, get really really straight…like Tom and Bob, who are both good friends…it is true that their work does not get me in the belly like say Antoine D’Agata, but i have a total appreciation for what they do…ain’t no right or wrong to it…..

    i will be coming to D.C. this week i think..pretty busy while there, but maybe we could have a few minutes together…again , many thanks for your superb coverage of the Burn opening at Fight Club…

    cheers, david

  • Ugh. I should have known better.

    I in no way meant to suggest that you, David, try to turn others into you! Never. Not what I meant at all. Only that this straight versus tight discussion is interesting and like it or not this place is sort of kind of geared towards the “looser” style. I really do think that is OK. And if there is a clique-ish aspect now and then it is certainly not your doing. (And I probably shouldn’t have used that word. Sorry.)

    Honestly, no offense meant by it. Going to get my 2nd cup of coffee, clearly I need it.

  • GLEN…

    great to finally meet you in Bangkok…..good times amigo and thanks so much for coming…Rafal and you are my two oldest friends who i met here online…and one of the joys of publishing here is that i have somehow managed to meet so many in person…you were in person pretty much as i would have imagined…i am only sorry that you saw only a very jet lagged version of dah….please visit me at home sometime…you would be most welcomed…i am sure our paths will indeed cross again..and i am ready ready ready to work with you on some potential sponsorship for your aborigine work as well as some project involving aborigine kids with cameras for potential publication on Circus…

    cheers, david


    geez, no no i was not offended….damn this method of communication is not always perfect…only text is worse for often creating misunderstandings…i was writing you with a twinkle in my eye….hope to see you this week…

    cheers, hugs, david

  • OK cool. Yes… text, email, forums… minefields everywhere. My bad.

    Would love to hook up, anytime!


  • Georgia is a country…
    destroyed recently by the russians…
    nothing new here , right?
    today a friend of mine in athens wanted her house
    to be whats the answer?
    find an immigrant… they charge less..
    they work harder..the usual form of slavery…
    today i met a young girl ( the house cleaner )..she came to clean my friends house..
    She was a young girl from the republic of Georgia..
    She wasnt alone..She brought her mother with her..
    The daughter 7 years now in greece, illegally , she managed to gather 3500 euros,
    to pay the “turkish/greek coyotes”…to bring her mother ( smuggle ) in greece..
    14 hour trip with bus… HIDING IN A SUITCASE…
    IN A BUS…
    in a bus that the authorities WILL NOT SEARCH…as long as u paid the price…
    The older woman ( the mother )…57 years old..
    the most beautiful and proud woman i ever met..
    They told me the story..
    the details…but you know it all..
    yes u do..
    All i did is one picture..
    the REUNION..

  • Hey Panos,

    Great story and terrific picture… maybe your future lies in eastern Mediterranean reportage, leave that narcissistic Southern California lifestyle behind and really MOVE us…???!!!

  • Michael Kircher,

    No need to feel embarassment or to dissemble for telling it like it is… I thought what you said was exactly right. Of course, DAH has a very wide embrace, and a spirit of unrivaled generosity, and that is at least as attractive to many of us as his style of photography is.

  • Sidney…
    thank you
    thank you
    thank you…
    u totally make sense…courage is all i need right now..
    i “swim” in an ocean of anger and desperation right now..
    I came back in greece after all those years (heavily distracted and absorbed in my narcissistic S.C lifestyle,
    as u perfectly described…)
    just to face “reality”..heavy injustice , discrimination, hate, ignorance and on and on…
    deeply depressed, heavy ( ifeel i got extra 1000 pounds on my feet… i need to be extra careful though)
    because i dont like what i see..
    its hurting me..therefore i cant be neutral…
    but maybe im wrong…
    its just i lost my greek pride…
    that alone killed me…
    but i need to find the courage to go on..
    and you, Sidney ..yes u..with your generosity and guidance..u are helping me to the fullest to proceed..
    to go on…
    to keep shooting…
    thank u Burn..
    thank u DAH..
    thank u Sidney..
    ( ahhhh…fucking emotions take the best of me once again…)

  • its hurting me..therefore i cant be neutral…

    and i dont wanna be a lier..
    i dont wanna give the wrong picture…
    i hate emotions..but i cant change..
    its just me being me… 2 late now..
    at least…
    im aware of it…


    My dear brother, THIS is why you are a great photographer…because you FEEL and feel deeply. Whether it is joy/despair, hate/love, pride/disgust, elation/depression, attraction/repulsion. It doesn’t matter. Man, just SHOOT IT, whatever “it” is on that day in that place at that moment. Sure, we prefer the positive emotions but some of the greatest art ever created or captured came when the artist/photographer felt so f**ked up he/she didn’t know which end was up. Just DO IT, dear Panos. Feel your feelings through your camera. This is your moment, my friend. Seize it!!!

    BIG hugs

  • wendy
    November 28, 2009 at 8:29 pm
    I shoot from my feeling….
    my intuitive…
    I still shoot film,
    so I am careful with my framing….
    $12 for 36 exposures….
    I gotta be thinking…
    I love my M6 and provia…

    next time i see you…
    i will ask u out…
    im not just infatuated with u…:)
    after this comment ..hmm i am in love..:))))))
    last time i met u..well…i ended up in jail….
    and it was fabulous B. right next to me but next time i see u..
    be aware…
    im gonna ask u out…
    ( whatever that means )
    big hug

    btw..all , click here:

  • Patricia..
    here in greece i met lots of of photo lovers..photographers..
    any way u call it..
    young people that gave up hope..
    i live in vain they told me..
    noone cares about me they said…
    nobody cares about my photos…
    why bother?

    im too old..
    im too young..
    im too healthy…
    im too sick…
    i dont have the right equipment…
    im disabled…
    my husband wont let me..

    ok.. i guessed u guessed my answer..
    very simple ..
    i turn everyone to this motherfucking link..:


  • Panos…..he simply likes shooting

    Just like me… And also us, many of us, here! I mean shooting keeps you from editing, no? :-)

  • im too old..
    im too young..
    im too healthy…
    im too sick…
    i dont have the right equipment…
    im disabled…
    my husband wont let me..

    It does sound like you are in Europe, Panos! :-)

  • At the risk of being (yet again) called an a**kisser, I would say to your young/old Greek photo friends: Go to THIS link and then turn your camera on what is around you. Don’t think, just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and…


  • HERVE…

    yes, yes…anything, i mean anything, to avoid editing is the way to go!! i am the same, i only like shooting…you have no idea how far behind i am in editing my own work…one of the obvious ways i do that is to edit other so much easier….hence Burn!

  • And also us, many of us, here!
    nope ,
    many of “us here” care most about “success” than shooting…
    see ? big difference.. my good friend
    big hug

  • crazy shit panos…..
    ask me out……


    how can we ever re-create the rooftop scene in Venice Beach or a night in the Jim Morrison bus? either of you remember?

  • It does sound like you are in Europe, Panos! :-)
    nope again..:)
    ..ask Sidney.. he can explain it wayyyyyyyyyy batter than i can!
    ( love u herve )

  • Talking about books.. and time..

    It’s taken him just 14 years of taking pics, and some more for self publishing (with the help of his friends and students) this book:

    I’m home now from seeing the exhibition, and of course, buying the book. Simply beautiful, both, the prints and the book. If you get a chance check it out!

  • David…Wendy..
    we will..
    we have to..

    ahhh Wendy…
    i just DID ask u out..
    ( next time in person ..ok:)

  • EVA…

    good suggestion..yes, it is interesting how Ernesto has managed to have his students finance his book…Ernesto and i have been friends for years, meeting in Cuba, and we were just concurrently together for the Day of the Dead in Oaxaca…we both did a simultaneous interview for one of the big Mexico City newspapers, but i have not seen the final result…if you see it, please let me know…curious how it got played in the press…

    cheers, david

  • anybody want to edit this wedding? i don’t (hardly ever) do this for a reason …

    Panos, i know you can tell your story of feeling alienated in the country of your birth better than anyone else … and thanks for the Mythos.

  • PANOS…

    laughing,…funny..brilliant dude…how in hell did you find those pics THAT fast?? i could not have done that, but then again , nobody worse at finding pics than yours truly….hey, didn’t i shoot that pic of you and Barbora with your camera? notice i focused on her and not you? you are just a blur..but, that is just the way i saw it…

    cheers, david

  • Talking about jagged, David, I received this in a mail titled “DAH’s last night in Thailand”, and I wonder if you could explain to us…. I mean, what is that: DAHsperado? :-)))

    Worse than unedited… Undone!

    Why, david, why? the future looked so bright. BURN, CIRCUS, being a father again soon (Simone)…

    Nice wig and mustachoe though, but did not quite do the job, or did it? See for yourself:

    PS: hope coffee was not spilled over this one! :-)))))

  • WENDY…

    damn, i forgot i am supposed to be in Miami in jan….thanks for the reminder…shouldn’t i get a daybook or calendar or something??

    abrazos, david

  • hey, didn’t i shoot that pic of you and Barbora with your camera? notice i focused on her and not you? you are just a blur..
    yes..yes…this is the photo i “copied” when i started blurring my foreground and keeping the
    background sharper…
    thats why i shot that lovely kitty blurry…

    more here:

  • HERVE…

    i keep telling my students NOT to take pics of me after class!! well, you cannot tell them to get loose, be themselves, get in and then get the picture, without some repercussions…yup, now the whole empire up in smoke!

  • a civilian-mass audience

    wait till you see the list that I have from SIDNEY …
    ” THE reading list “…I have it under my pillow …next to my ouzo,next to my mouse…

    editing is another chapter that BURNIANS have to master…
    BUT it seems that the journey to get there is important too… IMO or NIMO :)))

    You rock…oime BURNIANS are really BURNing !!!

    I am the happiest civilian of all…our PATRICIA …yes

    P.S Where are you BURNIANS ??? KATIE FONSECA…I need your words on my screen …
    VIVA !!!

  • Sidney Atkins…

    I was not dissembling, I swear. I just didn’t like the idea that DAH may have thought I thought he was trying to turn people into him. That’s all.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    DAMNIT…you write so fast …

  • yup, now the whole empire up in smoke!

    I sure feel bad now for not being there with you, and save you from yourself! ;-)

  • David, no idea about that interview, sorry, sitting on the other side of the planet here ;)

    He was giving a three day workshop in Lucca (Tuscany), and interviewed live at the photocaffè (along with Scianna, Majoli over skype from Indonesia, Eikoh Hosoe and some more) on Saturday night. His exhibition is wonderful, and the book is packed!

  • a civilian-mass audience

    From ERICA to ANDREI
    BURN is on FIRE.
    I love Internet !!!

    What not to LOVE…

    P.S MR.HARVEY in Thailand …hmmm…
    HERVE…wait till you see him in Greece …
    what a pisser …!!!

  • Oh my gawd, the REAL DAH unmasked. YOU GO GUY!!!!!

    Thanks, Herve. You sure do have your finger on the pulse of life in Thailand…


  • Herve, I may have just pissed myself laughing so hard … oh god, too funny … sorry David :))

    Thanks again Panos :)) I need my greek salad with huge chunks of feta on top, lamb and keftedes now … maybe dolmades too … followed by a walk up 300 well-worn marble steps …

  • I discovered burn a couple months ago. I don’t remember where I clicked the link, but I had never heard of David. I’ve enjoyed the slideshows and some of the commentary. And it’s been good for me as a photographer. I come from a very traditional J-school background, probably much like David’s (anyone heard of Will Counts?), and although I spend a good deal of time off the reservation, still find myself most often in the “tight” camp. Seeing all the “loose” stuff on burn has caused me to evaluate some compositions differently. It’s an uphill climb though. I don’t doubt that it’s just as difficult to shoot “loose” effectively, it’s still much easier to shoot “loose” in general.

    I’ve enjoyed this tight/loose thread. Of course these terms are mostly irrelevant to the act of creation, but definitions such as these are necessary to talk about it. Without tools for criticism, it too often comes down to “that essay sucks” or “that essay is so great I wet myself.” I don’t see how either extreme helps the photographer, nor the art of photography.

  • Thanks Patricia, and Tom, you made my day, laughing that hard.

    Maybe I should send it to Magnum…. David? yes? No? Seriously…

  • a civilian-mass audience

    TOM ,
    I am the one with the feta, the keftedes,the souvlakia, the augolemona…

    Copy and paste …Dope :)))

    Houston… do you copy ???

  • And Panos, CHEERS back at ya big guy …

  • a civilian-mass audience


    731… follow the link … partyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  • Civi, you are too cool … have you and Panos met yet?

  • Tom Hyde,

    From the wedding, no doubt..??
    Is that strong vignetting deliberate? SOP for wedding photography?
    Just curious.

    Michael K,

    Sorry, “dissemble” was the wrong word… and I understand your intention.
    But I still think what you first wrote is spot on.


    yes, sure i know Will Counts…or, rather , of him…nothing wrong with traditional photo-j background…i do feel that so called traditional photo-j needs some tweaking in some ways, but the integrity factor outweighs any stylistic encumbrances….in any case, you have been most welcomed here with your reasoned evaluations and comments….please make yourself at home and submit work as you see fit…

    cheers, david

  • a civilian-mass audience

    TOM the Greek,

    PANOS is like a blur…he is the invisible celebrity…

    Mythos on the Greeks tonight …ainte Viva !!!

  • YOUNG..
    thank u..


    isn’t this where the movie started? didn’t you and i start a couple of years ago on this same discussion? there will always be those who expect a certain kind of photography to be displayed..either straighter or looser…surely i do reflect the more “leading edge” attempts at photography either straight or loose…Michael Brown’s Sakalin for example was in the “straight” school for sure as was Michael Mullady’s Children of Lead, yet they took us way out ahead of “travel” photography (of which i surely do not have interest)…at the same time La Familia Abrazada , curated by Rafal, could have been considered as being from the “loose” school, certainly brought us “home” in a sensitive way not at all in conflict with the “straight” sensibility regarding integrity or bearing witness…some get confused between style and substance….i am not always interested in pure substance as the only measure of good work, but if you run through the archive i think you will find mostly substance based material regardless of personal style…

    cheers, david

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I am going out …
    I ate tzatziki and your house smells like a dead procyon lotor…

    MR.DAH … you are a breath of fresh air…
    ( to be perceived as a compliment)

    P.S BURNIANS…dead line …focus

  • a civilian-mass audience

    oh, I forgot…

    LASSAL, HAIK… you are in my mind…
    I owe you

  • I think Harvey looked a lot like Hulk Hogan in that photo. The wig is good. :)

  • I predict the photo will go viral in a few days.

  • I predict the photo will go viral in a few days.

    Well, Jim, not sure, ACMA is furiously, and most likely succesfully, trying to get people’s attention back to her, and her only.

    How could I dare elicit a few laughs between her glorious posts?…


  • David;

    I’m just wondering what is in the Thai water that makes hair re-grow like that? I could sure use some of it… :-)

  • Sidney, I know nothing of SOP. Evidence to the contrary, I do not do weddings and I say this often ;-)) … as for the vignette, it is what happens at 1/4000, 1.4, with a 35 prime wide open on my full frame camera, slightly underexposed, which I do a lot and like these days, or sometimes the exact opposite. There is a setting in the camera to compensate for the vignette … somewhere … and I could probably process it out after the fact … but this is pretty close to right off the card so it is what it is, which is what the couple wanted, except mostly in black and white (god bless). So yes, it’s a byproduct of an intentional manual camera setting but the central intent was not to create a vignette. I don’t mind it though.

  • Tom

    I can help with editing your wedding if you need. I need to focus on something. Might as well be useful for someone else.

  • Bjarte, thank you, that is very cool of you :)) … but I’m nearly done, in more ways than one.

  • Tom

    Ah, okey, but just let me know another time if you need to borrow another pair of eyes. My e-mail is

  • a civilian-mass audience

    THANK you HERVE,

    you are focused…
    Yes,I am fast and furious and flamboyant and tedious and cool and …
    there is a reason… why I live in the country of the moustaches …

    My kibbutz boy, I am traumatized cause you never game me a chance with your bike…
    remember the one next to the chateau …and I loved your brides…
    but you were so fast and furious
    back then…and yes, I Love attention…it’s all about me…
    ah, HERVE… I wonder …how many stories we have to share when finally we will meet…

    yes, HERVE…u too :)))

  • PANOS..

    oh yes, i remembered the kitty picture anyway…now, the point is, whatever happened to Barbora?

  • DAVID…
    B. is fine …
    i’d rather update u in our next skype session…
    but a lost soul is always a lost soul…
    but yes, we did have a quick emotional reunion
    in venice beach
    couple nights before
    i flew to grecolandia….
    ahhh..let me tell u more in private..

  • Dave – We will keep our secrets from BKK close , What happens in BKK ,Stays in BKK. Straight V Loose ? My approach to photography is pretty loose but a sharp picture with lots of information is still to my taste , I did loosen up a little by day 3.

  • Dave – BTW let me know about Circus? There’s some possibilities!

  • Speaking of verticals, Glenn, your final shot on Day 1 knocked my socks off. WOW!!! Loved your understated text too. So brought back memories of DAH’s and Jim N’s Look3 workshop last June. Ah yes, it’s all in the throw-aways, the asides no one’s listening to. But YOU listened. And you got it. Look forward to meeting you one day…


  • Glen, great post, nice photos. Reminds me of my walkabouts in Bangkok two years ago during the workshop, including the hike from Chinatown (where I got lost in the backalleys) to Sukhumvit in the middle of the night. Saw a great kung fu movie in the street under the Rama freeway about halfway … uhhhm, I missed class that morning … caught crap about being AWOL but … no excuses :))

  • Funny, Patricia and I posted at the same time, about the same workshop duo, different cities …

  • Who says there’s not synchronicity between virtual friends ;=)

  • Pat – It’s all about using technology for the important stuff!


    i still remember that killer picture you took of the elephant..where is that essay by the way??…remembering good times and good pics all around..this most recent workshop was just three days, so not the same as when you were you have any plans to come back east?? you know we are going to have some kind of Burn meeting in NYC, so i am up for jamming everybody in my space just like we did last year…come for Mike Young opening on dec 10…after party my place….sound fun?

    cheers, david

  • wish I would be there!

  • by the way David, I’m slowly getting things scanned here, just finishing up on my Cambodian images from way back in 97′. Thats how long it takes me.. My God.. Too depressing. So I am looking forward to the day when I get linked up to Skype and hear what you think of the way I photograph things.

  • PETER…

    yes, get hooked to skype and have your pics on photoshelter or some other easy way to view and we can go over all of it…

    many of “us here” care most about “success” than shooting…

    I wouldn’t know, Panos. Photography seems to me the craziest media to achieve success. Now, of course, people can always redefine success as they fail along. But people are people, Panos, we must be hard on ourselves and indulgent with others…

  • Thanks David. I appreciated this offer of advise you gave me a couple of months back now. But I’ve been so busy working to save up enough money to continue on with my Indian festivals project, which obviously you can imagine, there can be no end in sight if one gets caught in this but there are some essential festivals I’ve yet to photograph. And now, thinking about getting a digital camera as , over past few years only been able to afford cheap colour neg film which is now, at times, very disappointing seeing the awful results from some of those cheap films.
    So, I’ve been working towards getting a paid site on PHOTOSHELTER so I will be able to fit the images I am currently scanning. The free site at Photoshelter I have has been full since about the 2nd day I opened it.
    But at least if I get enough images on there to give you an idea of where and what, and how I photograph, which will enable you to be able to give me the criticism I need. I still want to be a professional photographer, if I have the ability. I just have no ambition to promote myself ironically, in that I would like to be a professional photographer but purely so I can live my life endulging myself in this wonderful art.

    thanks David for responding.

  • Peter, if you are happy doing anything else in the world, don’t pursue professional photography. You’ll just ruin a great hobby. Only shoot professionally if nothing else will make you happy. :)

  • David … damn, cannot tell you how much I wish I could be there but really there is just no way. I have a major (non-photo) project coming together right about then and … damn. I was only there one or two full days last time and it was a blast … got a decent photo out of it too :)) I know, i know, i keep saying i’ll be back east and things keep coming up … but, I do have to get back there before too long since it’s been too long since I saw my Mom in Lexington (VA) and many friends, so I’ll make a proper east coast tour out of it when the time comes … Lexington, Richmond (been decades, that’ll be interesting), OBX (decades too), New York … and maybe, if I’m really good, I’ll find the time to road trip it from here … damn, I should have kept that purple schoolbus. Peace.

  • The Bangkok essay? It was always a bit too disjointed but yeah, that one shot was my best, and i assume it’s sitting in the Road Trips archive somewhere … I still look at my Bangkok archive now and again … full of very straight and very loose and just trying to find myself :))

  • thanks for your thoughts JIM… and I do agree, which is how I’ve been playing this game called life (I don’t use the word game cynically but rather in how life is, your dealt a certain hand and the smart ones make the most of their hand. I’m not so smart at this game).
    I have dabbled in trying to make a wage from photography by free lancing, but I had no plan, I simply pursued themes that interested me, then tried selling some of the images I ended up with to the wires and publications. I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to seek out the right contacts. So I simply found it easier to come back to Australia and work in odd jobs and save until I had enough o go off again. Now I have built up an archive of images which I’d not only like to earn some money from, but most of all, I’d like to think that they become part of the visual communication which I personally so appreciate..

  • a civilian-mass audience

    where are you in the Universe right now???

    well written

    synchronicity between virtual friends …our PATRICIA…lovely

    keep BURNing…VIVA !!!

    …purple bus…I knew it…please, don’t find yourself…we LOVE you !!!

    I need more BURNIANS …Spacecowboy…dead line…BURN

  • DAH: thought you were supposed to drop by PPenh?

  • occupational hazard that is of photojournalism…
    when will it end…
    sad… so so sad…

  • 1,000 journalists and activists marched Monday in the capital to protest the massacre in the southern Philippines of 57 civilians….

    u read this Civi?

  • panos,

    i have read your troubles in seeing and feeling the reality of your grecolandia … as you call it.
    this makes my eyes run dry… saddest thing is this has been going on for the longest time…
    i have grieved for about a week for this in particular… but i have mourned for close to a lifetime.


  • JOHN…

    the organizer of the BKK workshop was to have organized a similar one in PP, but just could not get it done…we will do it in the spring…Canon, sponsor of the BKK deal, just simply ran out of funding…and as you well know, the Cambodian photographers surely need support from the outside…i think you and i need to work by private email the best way to make this happen..

    as always, wishing you well

    cheers, david


    we all mourn with you…i usually celebrate the upside of human nature, but nobody can be blind to our equally cruel dark dark side…ideology run amok, from all sides, seems to fuel our darkest spirit..


    oh yes, i forgot i ran that elephant picture on Road Trips…you my friend are best loose…your landscapes are particularly evocative in this way..what are normally considered fodder for straight, you shoot loose…yet, very very descriptive…..always anxious to see more…

  • I’m amazed at how quickly technology allows books to be published. I was surprised to see in the book “Photo:Box” that in the bio accompanying DAH’s photo of the naked fisherman’s kid, that it noted “He also edits Burn, an online photography magazine.” I realize the book was just published, but, still…

  • Also, the book is a bargain. $20 at, and 500 pages or so of darn well reproduced photos with a brief writeup on the photographer relating to the work, and short bio.

  • we must be hard on ourselves and indulgent with others…
    well said Herve..:)

  • not sure, ACMA is furiously, and most likely succesfully, trying to get people’s attention back to her, and her only.

    now , follow that piece of advice that u so generously just gave me..

  • ideology run amok, from all sides, seems to fuel our darkest spirit..

    speaking of ideologies…
    ( from Wiki, about the CHURCH of scientology )

    Hubbard’s “tone scale”, a means of classifying individuals and human behaviour on a chart running from +40 (the most beneficial) to -40 (the least beneficial). Sexual perversion, a category in which he included homosexuality, was termed “covert hostility” and given a score of 1.1, “the level of the pervert, the hypocrite, the turncoat, … the subversive.” Such people were “skulking coward[s] who yet contain[] enough perfidious energy to strike back, but not enough courage ever to give warning.”[8][9][7]..”

    yikes….thats all i can say…shame..
    fuck all churches

  • wait….there is more..

    “….During Scientology “Security Checks”, an “Ethics Officer” performs the Auditing process, and many of the possible questions asked during this session involve the subject’s sex life, including: “Have you ever had sex with any other student or staff member?”, “Have you ever used Dianetics or Scientology to force sex on someone?”, “Have you ever raped anyone?”, “Have you ever been raped?”, “Have you ever been involved in an abortion?”, “Do you have any bastards?”, “Have you ever been sexually unfaithful?”, “Have you ever practiced homosexuality?”, “Have you ever practiced sodomy?”, “Have you ever had intercourse with a member of your family?”, “Have you practiced sex with children?”, “Have you ever used hypnotism to practice sex with children?”, “Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another color?”, “Have you ever practiced sex with animals?”, “Have you ever had anything to do with pornography?”, and “Have you ever masturbated?”.[19][20]…”
    L. Ron Hubbard wrote that “sex crime” on an individual investigating Scientology should be reported to the press, in order to “Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way.

    “Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another color?”

    make it rough..rough on the attackers all the way

    yikes again..
    is that racism? or what????????????????

  • David ..
    thanks for the video

  • john sweeney is an excellent reporter.. when he ´looses it´as they get firmer in the brainwashing department.. just great.
    horrible organization..

    the southpark take on it is funnier.. the famed ´trapped in the closet´episode tom cruise had gagged.
    having trouble posting this here though.. 3rd time lucky..

  • morning all – am back at a machine…how will I ever catch up?

  • JIM…

    i have never seen this book, nor heard of it..i just took a quick look at Amazon and see the picture of the fisherman’s son as one of the cover shots…Roberto Koch is the head of Contrasto in Italy and is one of Magnum’s sub agents, so he obviously is the man behind it…yes, that is surprising he would mention Burn in my bio since normally books take so long to produce…or, at least they did in the past..yes, an amazing price…i will check it out..thanks for the tip…


    hmmmmm…when i lived in Washington, my apartment was about a block away from the Scientology headquarters which was also across the street from my favorite pub…i always thought it interesting that this massive stone structure never seemed to have anyone going in or out of it….i had to walk past it every day on my way to Natgeo when i was in town for an edit, but it always seemed so so quiet…i will be the first to say that i have only heard rumors and never went inside to see what was going on nor did i ever seek out any official literature (i do not think the Panos video was being shot inside)….so, i cannot make an educated comment one way or the other…David, your video clip i just saw was not complete (or did i do something wrong?) so i am very curious how the show ended…it is very hard for me to understand getting so so wrapped up in dogma of any kind…on the other hand, i am very curious to read or hear the Scientology pitch…those who are into it, are really really into it..

    later…ok,saw the whole bit…disturbing piece all around….

  • DON`T.. start out fresh :ø)
    tea, toast and onward..

  • dah – will post the parts now..
    emcd – message above was for you :ø)

  • scientology and me part one

  • Those four videos were like the proverbial train wreck, as horrifying as it is, I just couldn’t not watch! What a bunch of vicious thugs. I say we put Panos on the case! A Burn expose. Heh! That’s something I’d pay to watch.

  • now , follow that piece of advice that u so generously just gave me..

    I did, Panos. You just forgot to copy and paste the most important part of my sentence to Jim… the smiley (1). OUT OF CONTEXT, OUT OF CONTEXT……….

    (1) :-) that is called a smiley,it means don’t take it too seriously, smile, laugh about it!

  • i love u herveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..
    i really do..
    and i know u know it..:)

  • I watched too..david b, did you have something to do with the production?

    an almost smile, below


  • a civilian-mass audience

    “HERVE …you are a mean person…”hmmm… easy, cause the smiley doesn’t work for everybody
    Copy and paste…:)))
    hihihi…:))) that is called smiley …We LOVE u !!!

    I know…sad,sad,sad…I read the news…

    can I have a signed copy too??? I mean your upcoming book…???

    tell it as it is ….I will follow closely…

    P.S I am drinking mythos and I am eating papoutsakia…VIVA TOM !!!
    ………………………. SPACECOWBOY… where are youuuuu???


  • Hey Erica.

    Actually, I did live in pretty much the same neighborhood you shot. It was predominantly Puerto Rican on one side of the street and there were still a few oldsters on the other, including the aforementioned Betty. If you want some good audio, be on my old block on the first day of the year that really feels like summer. If you want to get some sleep though, forget it. My landlord was a Puerto Rican from the neighborhood. He was probably doing as much as anyone to change the place. He bought up one old house after another, renovated it, and rented it out to little yuppie families fleeing Manhattan. I knew of at least a couple others like him.

    So I didn’t mean that your Park Slope was nearly unrecognizable because the subjects you photograph are not the $500 stroller crowd. It was nearly unrecognizable to me because of the artistic choices you made. For example, most of your subjects in Park Slope have surfaces that reflect a more full spectrum of color than the grays with which you portray them. And they listen to Boricua, Rap and soul, loudly, often through busted speakers, not the type of piano that accompanies your sound track. My old neighborhood, you see, was very loud and colorful. Yours is much more dark and ominous.

    Don’t get me wrong. I respect your vision and the choices you’ve made to communicate it and I recognize that you have done well with them. Any conception of reality is subjective and we make aesthetic choices in how we portray it based on how we see the world and what it is we want to communicate. I’m not saying that my vision of that same subject, say a house on 15th street between Fourth and Fifth, or the same woman sitting on the same stoop, is any better than yours (probably not as good, to be honest). I just find it interesting how people perceive the same things differently, as well as the artistic choices they make based on those perceptions. And even more so in this case because I know the area so well. It’s not often I see a professional photo essay that was shot in my own back yard (so to speak). Normally they’re from somewhere exotic, like Belarus, the Andes, or the steppes of Asia and I have no relevant point of comparison.

    Were I your editor, I’d say you might consider a shot or two that better establishes location. I’d also say that if one is going to write about yuppie encroachment, one should consider showing at least some hint of it. And I’d consider that if one is going to show young boys and girls, it might be nice to hear from them, like we heard from the tattooed guy. Of course I’m not your editor, and even if I were, I wouldn’t come close to dictating any of that. I’d just bring up those points for consideration. You’ve obviously done quite well as is. I’ve enjoyed your essay very much, both experiencing it and thinking about it, and I’m happy to add my congratulations.

  • hi Michael –

    I think I may be unclear still on how you and I may perceive the area and it’s people differently -I don’t see it as dark and ominous at all..of course I do see loss – but I don’t see the people I photographed as being without color, quite the many years ago did you leave? if you listen to the audio there is some street music there..the other music is more about my feeling/perspective..this really isn’t ABOUT yuppie encroachment, it is about the other who remain.

  • I’m sorry Erica, it is no doubt I who am communicating badly. I didn’t mean any of that as negative criticism. Mostly just observations on how people perceive and communicate the same things differently. That’s a big part of what makes art interesting.

  • no, no, it’s fine..onward tho :))