bubble gum

Normally comments do not end up on the front page of Burn…however, as we get ready to move into a new year and are looking at a new design to better display the work of our audience photographers, i thought it would be interesting for those of you who do not read comments here to understand the behind the scenes discussions that go on here everyday with this audience…below is my last comment to readers in connection with how we can best use the comment section…the question of course is: do we stay as we are or do we go to a forum format…if interested you might just have to catch up a bit by checking out reader reaction under Viva Freedom..


there is no time line..and we are just having a conversation..i simply asked for some feedback, and it has been quite helpful…we are planning a bit of a redesign (when we can afford it, very expensive) to make things work a bit better and i was thinking perhaps that this would be a good time to try to fix the comments section…everyone can see there is some problem if one is not here everyday to keep up or simply miss constructive  comments in with all of the chit chat..however the solutions do not seem to necessarily be solutions either…and of course part of it is just personal as i so stated in the very beginning…how should i participate or in what way is best for what i feel i have to offer?

were i not publishing Burn , you would not find me on the internet except maybe to buy a camera and use Google for some research before a shoot…i was never a blogger at all and participated in no online community before i started Road Trips…so the ramble scramble of online chat is not something that i naturally gravitate towards…what i do enjoy, and why i started Road Trips, was to see if i could take the work in did mentoring in person and do it online…to see if i could do online what i seemed to be able to do with workshops..to help mentor the next generation and perhaps find a photographer who had been passed by and show their work….

please remember that Road Trips grew and became Burn ONLY  because i decided to show the WORK OF READERS instead of just my own..Road Trips did not feature any audience/reader work at all…it was only my personal diary…some say they preferred this, like Marcin…but i felt it would really be interesting to see what the audience was doing and so Burn was born…

then i thought , hmmm i wonder if we could actually print a magazine from this audience, and set a good example for all by getting some donations and sponsorships, and  paying photographers online…so this is what we did….

“we” being of course Anton and i primarily and throughout the history of Burn, but also with the help of Kerry Payne on the biz side and now with Diego Orlando, who masterminded the printing, and picture editor Anna Barry and Michelle Smith doing Burn 01 biz and Michael Courvoisier just keeping me in line on every angle.

all along, even with Road Trips, i had to consider how much time i was going to put into my online life and try to balance this with my own photographic work…right now as you can imagine i have two full time jobs….and interestingly enough quite well balanced, at least for the moment…but i am sure you know that i absolutely 100% cannot and will not let my own photography slide..either with shooting or with printing/publishing  and editing…all i really have to offer you as a mentor is that i am now “in it” myself…this is the same for Anton who wants to primarily be a photographer with Burn in second place..so we both feel the same in this regard..neither of us can totally drop everything else we are doing and just do Burn…actually if we did that, the irony would probably be that it would kill Burn…so time management is certainly part of this equation…

part of the fun here i think with both Road Trips and Burn, is that the audience , as like right now, has always been a part of the evolution and always knew the “business plan” because i would write about it over my morning coffee as an announcement to all….so Marcin you may lament the loss of Road Trips, but i think you must agree that i never left…like right now, i mean right now, if you Marcin gave me pictures to view and edit and consider for Burn or for anything, do you think i would do it?? and Thomas i AM waiting right now for ideas from you for an assignment….

so do not cry too much yet…we are all still here and intact and doing the best we can from our laptops set up in coffee shops and airports and sometimes from home…

right now, i mean right now, i am listening to you …as i always have and always will..that is why i did this post…Burn is NOT going to become some big commercial operation as some have suggested…anybody who knows me (and many of you now do) know Burn would never never become something else… we know what Burn is and what it means to you..we only want to make it better for all of us….and if it does not become better or grow in a way that makes sense for all of us, then we will go and do something else…and not for one minute not be very proud of what we did right here with all of you….

cheers, david

676 thoughts on “letter to friends..”

  1. a civilian-mass audience

    “I haven’t a clue as to how our story will end. But that’s all right. When you set out on a JOURNEY and night covers the road, you don’t conclude the road has vanished. And how else could we discover the stars?”

  2. a civilian-mass audience

    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
     Mark Twain

    Oime…I can’t get my eyes off the balloon…:))))))))))))))

  3. a civilian-mass audience

    That’s when all started…hmmm…I knew there must be …some explanation…:)

    I wish I have read it sooner…but it’s never late…

    Explore,Dream,Discover…my BURNIANS !

    P.S better run for the doc ap…best luck to Simon!

  4. “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”

    AKAKY IRL: No.

    AKAKY: Come on, let’s live a little.

    AKAKY IRL: No to all of the above. You’re not going anywhere so the bowlines stay where they are. Not only are you not sailing away from the safe harbor, you’re not getting on the boat in the safe harbor.

    AKAKY: You really are a stick in the mud, you know that?

    AKAKY IRL: So you keep telling me.

    AKAKY: Jerk.

    AKAKY IRL: Likewise, I’m sure.

  5. Home from shooting Fedora.. to find a new picture.. cool, ok, I think I got it: let’s make some noise in here, that’s the way to get to see photographs!!! :)

  6. a civilian-mass audience

    And now,I will blend …AKAKY with EVA…and voilà the cocktail :

    Come on, let’s live a little… let’s make some noise in here, that’s the way to get to see photographs!!! :)

  7. EVA / PANOS …… regarding the ordering of the images in picasa / flickr …… thought of a way so tht they do not get cropped ….if you make all images square by adding white borders (horizontal ones fr horizontal images and vertical borders fr vertical images .)so tht all of them are squares like mounted slides …… u will view em like mounted slides witout any crop to the actual image…. or in my opinion square format images remain unaffected …..

    so far for arranging moving images withing folders flickr is the one with the most features but its pain to get used its operating style …….

    piacasa is much more user friendly …. but … u cant move when arranging

    anyways none have the option of increasing thumbnail sizes while actually doing the edit ……

  8. regarding the current discussion about forums … almost every body finds this system in some way or the other helpful …… may b a bit confusing …… but still essays r being made and getting published …..honestly expecting more is kind of appealing as being greedy to me …

    its lik yh a 6 megapixel and a windows 2000 machine VS a 39 megapixel hasselblad and a 16 core mac pro with a 40 inch 3D LED monitor along with an ipad to flaunt around with ………. …….

    sometimes greed is good though ……

  9. David, you may or may not remember my advocacy in New York for keeping the freewheeling creative of Road Trips going in BURN and to that end, open comments, as well as steering clear of the crass commercial that is so prevalent nearly everywhere else, i.e. keep it real and keep it a reflection of its creator. So sure, it limits revenue streams and as John Gladdy related in his proverb so well, can get a little rowdy and crazy at times, but who wants to do a uptight dinner party when you can really live.

    What to do about comments? The best creativity can dissolve into chaos without structure so the rub is always in the balance. There is such great potential in this salon you’ve got going here but you still need a strong but light touch on the rudder, yes? And, bottom line, you have to be the one doing it. You have in the past indicated you were stepping back a bit, and not just because of your first priority, or perhaps I misread that, and that certainly does not seem to be the case now. I’m not sure you will ever be able to successfully transition BURN away from the strong personal stamp you have here, mi amigo. Again, perhaps I was reading too much between the lines but as in all you do, the authorship here may be too unique to pass on, at least in its current incarnation.

    While I think a true “forum” style would be a huge mistake, I do think a redesign of BURN beyond the blog-style is long overdue and could provide a little more structure without limiting the possibilities. I could be wrong of course. If I remember correctly, this current design was meant to be a short-term intermediate step so you could go live right away? Now, I believe with a good redesign that incorporates comments, better showcases multiple photo essays at once, as well as written essays with singles, and perhaps adds a few back rooms to the bar, BURN can evolve closer the vision we had in New York. Was that the idea we had in New York, or just me? ;-))

    Next step? Does a redesign have to be expensive? With the exposure of BURN would it be possible to have a contest for a redesign, or a contest to choose a designer or design team to work with? Of course this would have to be well promoted outside just photo circles but I am sure there are young, hungry teams of crazy creatives out there salivating at the opportunity to show their chops. This is fresh, raw clay with incredible content hard to beat. This fits in with what we were talking about on your porch. If I were at XYZ publishing house looking at the ipad and with a decent budget, I would find and put together the hippest craziest group of young artists, musicians, designers, photographers, and code warriors in a tricked-out warehouse with an older experienced team leader, send them over the edge, and bring it all back down to something that would actually work. (Isn’t this what Apple did in the early days?) For BURN, I’m sure you could find the right virtual team with a little planning and promotion.

    Hey man, I’m not saying I have THE answer at all, I’m just offering my humble opinion for what it’s worth. I hope you find it helpful David.

  10. Addendum.

    It is easy to run ahead of a good design process by settling in on specifics too early. So if you want to address the issue of comments, I think you need to do that within the context of an overall redesign process for BURN that starts with the basic broad strokes of conceptual goals that capitalize on the lessons learned to date and works down to specific implementation at the end, not the beginning. Make sense?

  11. And to immediately contradict myself …

    a. seriously reconsider white on dark text. The gray background is good for photos, not so much for text.
    b. David, please, please, please consider showing more of your work here. With a redesign you could do this while simultaneously showcasing emerging work and avoiding what you consider uncool (?). Perhaps a good starting point would be featuring a “shoot a card” showcase like your workshops with discussion.
    c. Apologies for taking this beyond comments on comments.
    d. You did ask :))

  12. Yes, it would help to understand more the scope of the redesign. So far it’s all been about comments, though I’m sure making it more Apple friendly is on the agenda as well.

    Me? I’m fine with the current front page look. It doesn’t seem broken to me. Leave the slideshow, editorial content, and comments for the featured work more or less as is, if that’s the easiest. Then maybe have a nondescript link to “other dialog” that goes to a page with the different forums. On that page, you can have forums where it’s encouraged to stay on topic and other forums where delicate souls can enter at their own risk.

    Or something else entirely. I’m looking forward to the discussion.

  13. Feel I should clarify a bit. I make quips about delicate souls, but when it comes to personal attacks and general nastiness I am one. Although I like intelligent criticism no matter how harsh and general weirdness no matter how weird, and even the creative trading of negative personal quips if done artfully, when it gets nastily personal, I stop following the discussion. Hopefully, a well designed forum structure will provide other outlets than the exit.

  14. TOM HYDE..

    what part of david alan harvey would suggest uptight dinner party?? and what part is commercial and where oh where are closed comments?? scratching my bald head on this one…Gladdy comment was priceless in its prose, but as both of you well know way off in any reality of what i in fact DO…. as i clearly said i was trying to pattern my online expression as my loft shows which i do not think could ever be characterized as “uptight” and yet do provide a time for respectful showing of work..THEN we break the house down…you know how it goes ..but yes, the online experience is a different animal…i know that…i just want to get free from the all too often vulgar image of online chat if possible…maybe it is not possible…

    in any case, yes good ideas for possible re-design and thinking that forum would be a mistake…any thoughts on keeping it freewheeling, yet still having some sort of apres order for the really choice comments?? i mean you and many others have written some brilliant things that are lost forever or would be very hard to find…how can we keep “open” and yet have the minutes of the meeting edited down for later archiving…any thoughts?

    by the way, no need to read between the lines…i say what i mean


    the redesign would simply allow us to do more with archiving and with having more stories available to see at any one time more easily….in any case, when we have our meeting , we would love for you to be there…the comments part came up pre-maturely just because it is a topic that has always come up since the beginning…do not worry…we will put first things first…all of this is a conversation, not a dictum

  15. DAH & Anton,

    If it is decided that current comments structure is to be retained on Burn for dialogue (rather than switching to a forum), perhaps there are some existing WordPress plug-ins that can improve the search and archiving of comments.

    Off-topic: I know I’m a bit late to the Burn01 party; I just received my copy from the Magnum store yesterday. AWESOME! I didn’t realize just how cool it was going to be to hold a tangible piece of Burn and see the essays in print.


    pleased you like 01….i am not the tech person as you probably can assume, and Anton is traveling…he would know…maybe that is the answer, just better archiving OR an editor who edits AFTER the conversation is over rather than inhibit before…anyway, many thanks for your suggestions…

    cheers, david

  17. DAVID:

    Don’t have time to read all the comments on the latest two dialogue posts, but I can certainly see the logic behind changing how the comments and dialogue sections work.

    I don’t write too much, but I read the dialogue quite often, and it’s good fun and often very interesting. I certainly would not want Burn to turn into another Lightstalkers. It can be difficult to follow the dialogue if you don’t read every day and the topic is jumping all over the place, but that’s part of Burn’s character for me. You can just drop into the party and see what’s going on at that time, take part if you wish and come back another time and it’s a different party.

    The regular contributors keep it going, and that’s good too. I know some people feel it is a bit of a “members’ club” but I find that if you have something good or interesting to say people take notice. Not always, but that is just how it is. And the occasional person who gets a bit of shit, is, I hate to say it, usually deserving it. If you are going to insult people online or say foolish things, then you get what you deserve. It’s that simple.

    A question: do you envision anybody being able to start a new dialogue post? If yes I think that could get a bit messy.

    I still think that it would be reasonable to ask people who want to comment and take part in the dialogues to pay a modest contribution fee of say $20 – 30. That way you would be more assured that the people who write are serious and being involved with Burn.

    And because this is a DAH party (something I have yet to experience in the flesh), perhaps you should have a disclaimer for those that sign up that if you overstep the mark, then Panos and his crew will jump on you!

    On a different topic:

    I have followed up your suggestion for the submission, and it should be there. I have sent you another email about this today. If you have a moment before DC please let me know your thoughts on schedule etc.


    Justin P

  18. wow! David, thanks for your post. it is really encouraging and motivating.
    currently, I’m caught in the dynamics of my profession. (i.e. I’m constantly reshuffling travel schedules.) I’ll prepare all assigent proposals during the weekend.
    in terms of discussing and supporting you on the redesign I get the impression, I might be too slow for you. looking at the current flow of discussions.

    you know, I currently feel so much energy, I would like to jump into collating requirements and selecting a forum or platform fulfilling the needs here. (I have some experience in the computer related stuff) at the same time, I know my boundaries time- and travelwise and don’t want to hold you back from anything.

    first things first, I’ll come up with my essay proposals and then will act from there.
    probably computer science is meant yo be my history and not my future. :)

  19. The comments would be better focused and more on point if the essays and singles were posted more quickly. We always turn our attention to the next thing. Sometimes it’s a week later. So the threads take on a life of their own. If we had, say, two new essays or singles per week — and could count on the regularity — I think the commenting (hard and soft) would improve.

  20. “what part of david alan harvey would suggest uptight dinner party?? and what part is commercial and where oh where are closed comments??”

    David, perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly. Apologies. You misinterpreted what I wrote 180. I was merely restating discussions held at the inception of BURN and applauding the direction it has taken as opposed to the uptight dinner party or commercial direction it could have but DID NOT take.

  21. Looking at both threads it seems that most are more concerned about getting rid of comments they don’t like than what David sees the role of burn being. Burn is not about self nor is it about greed …………..

  22. I start to wonder if all those of us asking for something (less comments, different comments, more essays, our own essays.. you name it) are also willing to do something.. to write less comments, to write different ones, to work on essays.. whatever.. is it not possible that just by thinking a bit before posting, each one controlling just oneself, we could avoid all or a bit of the scratching of heads.. after all, it can’t be healthy to scratch a bald head too much??

    Burn does a lot for me.. what do *I* do for burn?

  23. YOUNG TOM..

    so now i am guilty of “selective reading” ?…my apologies back to you…i should have known…or read way way more carefully…i was surprised considering you know me and the process of inventing the animal as you do…you were a part of the inventing team…earlier today Marcin took me 180 off too….have you ever noticed that some days are better for communicating than others? hmmmm, now IF we could only know in advance which were which we might all live in bigger houses…that was joke Tom, a joke… :)


    we DO post exactly two new essays per week, actually more if you look at the annual average of about 150 essays ..and oftentimes a Dialogue post as well….sometimes one may stay on the front page for a whole week , but there is always a new one as well…there have been some very few exceptions to this…for sure we cannot generate material faster than we are doing with the resources we have……

    i do see your point and you are right about a thread going sideways after the story has been up for awhile, but producing these essays requires way more work than you imagine..we do not just take a submission and just post it..there is a whole back and forth process as in any magazine….even for me it seems sometimes like we need new stories faster, but it must be like eating red raw meat or something..we get wild animal appetites that are not realistic…as we start contemplating more sophisticated essays for the iPad, we will actually most likely produce less not more…throw in video/audio etc and you have a whole new production ball game

    one of the problems is not our production which is way more essays and pics per month than NatGeo or any other print magazine , but just the attention span of all of us these days…the net gobbles up material as does television….i hear you and i know what you are saying, but do not have a solution at hand at the moment….give me two million bucks and a staff of 20 and we would kill everyone out there in print and for the iPad with daily updates…i think i have told you all the so called iconics want to shoot for Burn..but we are finally a mom and pop shop …and from all i can read here from most of our readers is that more than anything they want to keep us homey, personal, accessible, and a place to hang your hat…ok, well just give me one million bucks and i will keep it homey and still kill everyone out there!! smiling…. :)

    cheers, david

  24. a civilian-mass audience

    I don’t see anyone out there…hmmm…
    Maybe I haven’t been out …that much:)

    But I believe that MR.HARVEY…you have a million…1,000,000.00 readers…
    Mass Audience hmmm…
    Maybe I need to recheck my logistics… :)

  25. David “Burn is NOT going to become some big commercial operation…”
    I admire you for this boldness.

    Civi – That Twain quote reminds me of a professor I had – He had some sayings that came to be known as “Davy-isms” – “Be comfortable not knowing what you’re doing,” “Get into enough confusion that you find something new,” “Work outside your comfort zone,” and “If you don’t work with your hands, you’re no fuckin’ good.”

    David – I too would like to see more of your work here – you often talk about your current projects but you don’t show much of that here, even your main website shows work that most who know you are familiar with. Now maybe it is because of contracts and restrictions to keep the photos unpublished to ensure your clients have the true first rights, I am not certain.

    Tom – I think the expense of upgrading the site is in part, probably majority, compensation for time. Anton and David both go through a level of hell or two when working on the web. It’s a strenuous task of fighting with technologies, softwares, scripts, codes, and tech support. I know because I’ve dealt with it on a great many occasions for myself.

    All – the questions of Design – Black on white, white on Black, Grey tones, and such – since my background is in design arts and thinking about this task of choosing readability and viewing images appropriately – it becomes a bit disastrous at the end. Some photos are best viewed with a black border, some with white. Text is almost always considered easier to read when it’s dark on light. but images vary drastically. The background can set a mood in the photographs as well. Too dark around the image and dark areas in the image will begin to flatten and look as though they are all one tone. Too light, and highlights feel blown out. I think the greys David and Anton have chosen work very nicely. although, I would (if I had any say) recommend lightening they grey up a tiny bit. The text boxes could then follow suit to an even lighter tone, much like the box I’m currently typing in now, with the text darker.

    I feel like the over all purpose of this magazine is to present photography, and then discuss it as in a gallery. Therefor the words should not be distracting unless they are a part of the work its self. Even though the greatest knowledge and wisdom is to be found in the text.

    David – If I can be of any assistance…

  26. a civilian-mass audience

    TOM HYDE…TOM YOUNG…how can we forget…?
    “you were a part Of the inventing team”…Bravo…!f
    Hmmm…that means you are responsible too for the BURNing mess , we are experiencing now.
    If only you have done a better design…oime! ( please, to be perceived as a joke)
    Love you mate!

    JUSTIN.P…thank you
    You are right…there is no “club” here…we have BURNIANS from all over the Universe…
    I haven’t heard from My African friends yet…and I need updates from KATIE FONSECA…from Costa Rica…
    MyGRACIE,DAVIDB,HERVE…and many,many others…


    JASON…thanks for the quotes…I will copy and paste them!

    We are wishing best recovery for the BURNED cat…

    Now, you will excuse me…I need to go for few days…
    Who knows…I might find something …for the table:)

    Peace,Love and PHOTOGRAPHY!!!

  27. MARCIN…

    yes, smiling…we will make silent on it….

    Kent Kobersteen was the Director of Photography at National Geographic up until a few years ago…he did a fast trip to Oaxaca when i was working there for the magazine and stayed in the town of Chicahaustla with me and was around while i was shooting…i never knew he was making his own pictures too….at least not for distribution….i am a bit surprised he would use this particular shot in an ad for Leica since anyone can see it the same place as my photograph in Div Soul …hmmmm….anyway, Kent is retired, a good guy, and old friend and regular reader of Burn as well…

    cheers, david

  28. “Looking at both threads it seems that most are more concerned about getting rid of comments they don’t like than what David sees the role of burn being. Burn is not about self nor is it about greed …………..”

    worlds of truth..and truth hurts

    Some of the commenters here put a lot of time and thought in their writings:
    (akaky, bob, civi, sidney,tom hyde, erica, imants, davidB,Lassal just to name a few)
    They are the philosophers , thinkers of burn.. I read them no matter where they post and I never think that they “interrupted” the flow, or hijacked anyone or anything..
    In a church you are NOT supposed to talk, think, interrupt, change the subject, interfere, intervene, smoke s joint over a beer, debate or expand yours or anyones mind..
    Google map the nearest location of a church to your house and have a nice peaceful Sunday morning..
    This is “Burn” and it suppose to be closer to “hell than heaven”…
    Otherwise let’s change the name of the blog into “blue skies” or “heavens” or “enlighten” or “ascend”
    or “the ten commandments”… Or something ..
    I agree on one thing though..
    Yes to less “road rage”.. No to “anonymous”, no to Trolls,
    Yes to the “usual suspects UFO’s “.. Like Akaky and Civi ..
    Actually it would have been a major turn off if I knew who them two are in real life… I like their mystery..and both are tested and “safe”…
    But I suggest for any new comer jumping on the boat to be open enough, man and woman enough to show their real identity.. No initials, no funny names, no bullshit..
    Show your face and name and say whatever you want.. And take responsibility of your bullshit..
    So we have less incidents of funky trolls like the troll attacks we had two years ago from, Flies on the walls, and “son of fly” or “the stepdaughter of a spider” and bullshit like that..
    Moderate and eliminate any comment that is marked unknown or Initials or anything..
    No problem with MW or EMCD because we already know them..

    You see part of “road rage incidents ” is because the powerful feeling of anonymity behind your wheel..
    It was a blue Camry almost killed me! Well go figure , there only 5 million blue camrys out there..:(
    I think it’s an identity problem..
    On the other side they have been fights and nasty debates even with commenters that are NOT anonymous (and I can easily claim responsibility for some of those fights.. Some were uncalled for and some absolutely “necessary”)”.. And I don’t think that could be eliminated in real life either.. We would still have a fight/debate in david’s loft same way as over here and there is nothing wrong with that.. Time and maturity can ease that problem but not eliminate it since we are all real people with tempers and personal issues/problems..again just as real life..)

  29. JASON…

    the main reason Burn would never become a big commercial operation is that i am just not a businessman…..i am a photographer to the core…yes, i am in business as a photographer, but others do all the business…i do not have the proper business head….i would be giving away my pictures if it was up to me…just ask the people who try to sell my pictures!! i could sell your pictures or anyone’s , just not mine…

    however, both Anton and i are going to start publishing our own essays and works in progress here…not much, but some…once in awhile…a couple of weeks ago when i was chatting with Paolo Pellegrin and Larry Towell and realized they wanted to be published here, i thought hmmmmm, that would be nice…after all Burn is looked at all over the place…so in certain situations we will publish here as well….in my case, mostly to start a discussion for Dialogue with either a current or past project, but in Anton’s case his current work in progress with the Yakuza will be his main topic i am sure…

    cheers, david

  30. now here is a case in point with the problem with our current system…Preston made a point about 20 comments back…i answered him…now if Preston does not come back on here til tomorrow or the next day, he will never ever see the comment i wrote to him specifically….now Preston IF you see this or saw my response let me know…maybe you automatically go back to your own last comment….i do not know…we will find out…thanks

  31. “And take responsibility of your bullshit.” Panos, the world would be a better place if everyone followed that advice… BTW, I think Ross drives a Camry – better make sure he is still in NZ :-)

  32. PANOS..

    you are absolutely right on with your comment….and i would NEVER want to eliminate any of those attributes you mentioned…none of them…for they are the heart and soul of Burn…i have not seen one so called fight break out among those you mentioned where apologies were not forthcoming if warranted….and if someone left because the “fire of Burn” got too hot, well then they must not have had much constitution anyway…after all the Burn Nation is not made up of wimps!!! laughing….like Vincent Price in Thriller…:)

    cheers, david

  33. Even if someone wants to be named ” Initials ” or “snowstorm” still the administrator should have access to their real life names.. I know it sounds like a small, irrelevant step towards developing comments and attitude but I’m sure that even roadrage would be less if we had our NAMES and phone numbers on a neon sign on top of our “camrys”

  34. LEE…

    all we need is 99 cents a month from everybody….less than one third the price of a cup of Starbucks latte…and if they show up at my house, they get all the beer they can drink…now, is that an investment or what?? oh yeah, plus Burn!!!

  35. Yeah, I mean really anyone can sign in as “Shit Hit the Fan”, buy a bottle of cheap TAAKA vodka and start slapping the crap out of anyone in here… Hiding behind his anonymity…in the comfort of his lazy -boy chair

  36. David,

    that’s it, precisely. (re:Preston) but how to solve it…

    too many threads as in a forum would, i think dilute and confuse too much.
    but some way to ‘tag’ comments and have them fall into an archive with categories…
    perhaps, but how?

    as Justin P said towards the top of this page ‘I don’t write too much, but I read the dialogue quite often, and it’s good fun and often very interesting’.

    i wish i could be more constructive with my comment…
    i’m just trying to think of an example… some sites do have an option to tick a comment box to follow the thread (some even with updates to your in-box) but that’s going deep into the world on the forum…

    OK, gotta run now, driving up to Perth today, amongst other things i’m checking out a photography collages end of year show…

  37. Hi, David. If I make a comment, I always come back to see if anyone notes it, so I saw your response. But I do have to dig around to find my original comment.

    Do we really have two essays per week? ;>)

    I guess I just notice the drift during the odd times when there is a lag. I certainly understand the constraints — all the editorial man hours (and woman hours) that go into presenting the work. You have said it before, and you should say it again, that you could do with more singles submissions. They are certainly easier to present and can readily feed our demand for more content.

    I also think the laborious photographer’s statements are detriment to the presentation. Maybe in the future you could put a 150-word cap on what the photog writes. A lot of us, myself included, get sucked into the statements. Leaner is better.


    man you ARE down under…deeeep under!! enjoy Perth…i have never been to that coast and would love to visit sometime….now, there you go…i missed the Justin Partyka comment!! had you not mentioned it just now, i never would have known the boy said a word…i will now try to find it….

  39. PRESTON…

    yes, two published per week…with a few exceptions , but then we will have three the next week…in the last ten days amigo i have published 5 essays or stories for example..every other day a post…go look….we have all but given up on singles…we just never get a good one…they come in every day and every day nada….we are mystified by this…mostly the singles photographers are a different breed than the essayists..but just to put this in perspective, we get about 500 submissions for essays per month…so out of the 1000 essays submitted in july and august for example, we chose two….still we had to look at 1000…anyway, that is just the beginning….just opening 1000 websites and looking at probably 5-10 minutes worth of pictures is a lot of man hours right there…anyway, that is just the beginning….

    there are lots and lots of photographers , but honestly , and you are welcomed to come and look any time at submissions or just around anywhere, there are not lots and lots of exceptional photographers….we do not just look at submissions…we cruise around looking everywhere…our three best essays this last month did not come from submissions…

    back to the Burn manpower concept and how we get things done here..when we hear a good idea we know that the “good idea” is not the commodity…there are no shortage of good ideas…the commodity always, and i know this from Magnum and Burn is not the idea, but the people it takes to implement and manage the idea over a long period of time…this is the commodity….every good idea takes at least one new person to manage it…anyway, we are having fun….but like anything else there is always more than meets the eye…

    cheers, david

  40. David,

    FotoFreo runs every January.
    i’ve not had a chance to check it out yet myself but it takes over Fremantle (Perth) for a few weeks. I think they’ve had some Magnum dudes doing workshops… maybe DAH in 2012? we’d love to have you downunder that’s for sure… Hey! why not do a Burn show there in 2012? and as you know you’ve always gotta a place to crash and chill… (same goes to any burnians passing by…)

  41. Sam!!!!:))
    I was about to I ask.. but then I read that u wrote that ALL Burnians included..
    So , thank you.. It’s almost a dream of mine to visit that “island”.. The “Down Under”- land!

  42. SAM..

    yes, i had to back out of a Magnum workshop in Perth this year…i cannot remember why, maybe Rio work, but i was sorry to miss the opportunity to check out Perth…Burn show Perth sounds cool, but read the comment i just wrote to Preston…a good idea, but who will do it?? think before you say you will…that is a two-three person job at least…one there and two here minimum….smiling…

    cheers, david

  43. Preston, although I usually agree that the photographer’s statement’s aren’t compelling reading, but limiting them in any way would kinda undermine the whole viva freedom thing.

  44. You have my .99/day. Now. Have you received my email from the 21st? You have been busy and I was late….

  45. David,

    just quickly because i really am running out the door…
    thought about it (smiling) i’d love to get a Burn show Perth happening…
    (fotofreo would be perfect as it’s international).

    maybe we can talk about it sometime…

    btw. the mail i sent you is on it’s way… you should get it late next week…
    maybe we could skype after you get it?
    cheers for now…

  46. .99/day? hmm… sometimes that’s my daily meal limit…
    David – I, Like Preston, always go back to my previous post to see if anyone made a comment.
    So don’t despair if some people can’t make it back quickly enough during heated talk on Burn. I think most people would go back, otherwise they risk being lost all the time. Some people live life like that, and I don’t know how they can do it.

    I look forward to more published stories from you, Anton and other distinguished people. This magazine is for emerging photogs, and every so often, having an essay from someone big in the field might set the bar a little higher for the more experienced emerging photographers.. maybe promote a bit of healthy competition even for those who are distinguished…

    An adage among business people at the top is “You’re the equivalent of the 5 people closest to you” meaning if you surround yourself with people who have bad attitudes, you yourself will also have a bad attitude. and If you surround yourself with the best photographers, you should be, over time and through hard work of your own, right there with them. And thats what you’ve created here David: An atmosphere for that kind of nurturing to occur :) Thank you.

  47. “all we need is 99 cents a month from everybody….less than one third the price of a cup of Starbucks latte”

    Or; as many people (regular visitors who find Burn worthwhile) as possible regularly donating $5-10 per month (unless you really can’t afford it). A case of putting one’s money where one’s mouth is…


  48. Ah .99/month. Thought it said day. Thanks DAH. Look forward to your comments. I think….yes I am.

  49. David – did I miss something? (reading back) I only noticed the 99/month when Lee said / day.. and Are you planning to charge? what about the editors and publishers and big regulars who visit this site?

    Unfortunately I don’t think the donation button is working… – thats why newspapers and such use Ads.. then over time, advertisers get too much say in what is next to their ad because the publishing company needs that revenue and suddenly it’s out of control…

    David – I’m emailing you an Idea I had a few weeks ago and I wonder if you will get back to me on it…. might be worth considering…

  50. Jason, hon. No he wasn’t. He was joking. What’s offensive Panos? Dropping Dish? Being more fun here than cable? Don’t make me buy a t-shirt! Laughing and joking. Just in case…

    Off to get my car back. Later

  51. At school now waiting for the computer I need to open up so I can finish work on a video “portrait” of an antique dealer I know.. David in the past, Kerry’s comes to mind, but I think it’d be nice to see more videos… feature documentaries perhaps? Maybe making DVD’s to sell…

  52. JASON..

    ahhh that is how rumors start…no i am not planning to charge..go read the whole thread if you have time…i was just joking with Lee that if everyone put in 99 cents a month then our operating costs would be covered…if i was a businessman i woulda said 1.99, still cheaper than a cup of Starbucks….the way to make things work is to have lots of people drop in pennies instead of a few people putting in dollars…well, i am learning some biz!!

    yes, again, all good ideas…but, we need the people to run with those ideas…please see my comment to Preston…here is how it works….let’s say you have a good idea that you figure will bring in $10. for something you will make…say a desk picture frame……it will cost you probably $3. to have the right person to manage that idea…it will then cost you $4. to manufacture whatever it is you are selling….another $2. at least for sales and distribution.. this gives you $1. of profit and you will pay 50 cents of that in taxes…so you have to make sure there are lots and lots of folks who need desk picture frames…

    i nominate you to run our CD division as soon as you get out of college…now, first go get some good grades so your parents won’t freak, and make some worthwhile pictures and study a bit of biz too…never hurt….and keep my email on your list …you never know how things work out…

    cheers, david

  53. Rossy,

    From previous posts, I know that you do believe and contribute… Thank you. I know I haven’t contributed as much as I could/should…

  54. Ross… I wish I could… Really I do. People who know me well, know I would give nearly anything to help a good friend in need.. I enjoy helping strangers as well.. occasionally I don’t have enough money to feed myself, Girlfriend and my cats so girlfriend and cats come first. but I have time. Time is something like photography… David would give his work away. I give my time away… David knows my photography skills, and if I keep trying, I may earn .99/month myself someday with it. But I have time and time is good for all things. David – I generally get good grades. not an honor student because I was usually too busy with photography to study other stuffs… Parents don’t contribute so they don’t worry… graduate in spring – done now, just taking one last photo class for fun and another publishing class.

    going to work on my antique video now Good bye! haha

  55. Ross, it’s cool I think there’s a lot of people here that do care and give to Burn… I will too and I hope I’m able to sooner rather than later.

    David – I actually have friends in the film industry (on the production end) so if we want to set something to duplicate work quickly and package neatly it I think I might be of use! I’ll accept your nomination post graduation!

    David – when this video thing i’m working on now is done I’d like you to take a look over it when you get time…

  56. I see to remember similar concerns about all this a couple of years ago , just before Burn became a reality…and we all know how well that turned out.
    I dredged this up from Road trips past

    “I’ve allways thought of this place as a party in an open room comings and goings occasional bottlenecks in the doorway, a couple quietly ageing on the couch…. nodding, someone holding court enthralling all around, then someone vomiting in the pot plant.

    There’s a chandelier in this room and some appreciate its beauty and form, some think it’s just a bloody light, some know how many facets are cut in the crystal centrepiece and which Bavarian craftsman built it, and then some just swing from it.

    There’s a bookcase as well, where arguments, knowledge and opinions fly off the shelves, some are hit, never to be seen again, some come back stronger, ready for more, some look for a long forgotten stash behind the classics.

    Some enter in a frenzy, engaging all and sundry in a mad circumnavigation, naming countries, tearing down cities, building empires –Then, Poof! They’re gone! Some are in the corner staring at the lava lamp.

    Some enter quietly, circling conversations, earwigging, finally finding a group that fits, and joining in! It’s self validation – shit, I don’t suck that much after all! Some are taking a Leatherman tool to the drinks cabinet.

    Some come in desperate that the special someone who will make dreams come true and happy ever after will be a reality if they can just bend the ear of the host, take him by the sleeve and take him off to the bathroom for a special one on one, Some are in the street staring up through the window ,dodging the occasional TV or other white good that is thrown ( photography is solo rock and Roll), not coming up, not knocking on the door walking away, collars turned up, hat pulled down. Some are drinking out of jam jars because someone just broke a tray of glasses.

    Someone’s creating a scene, diverting attention away from the matter at hand, Drama! This room is filling quickly, time to spill out onto the street, who’s turn is it to go down the bottlo? We’re running low.

    There’s someone smoking on the balcony.

  57. The subscription debate…..still something the most devious media minds in the world are trying to deal with…how’s the Times going with it’s paywall? Burn surely fits in under the crowd sourcing model…but how to charge?
    My vote goes for Tom Robbins’ Skinny Legs and all model of the “Daughters of the Daily Special”
    “Working nights as a waitress, Ellen Cherry earned a degree in three years from the Cornish
    College of the Arts. In only one way did graduation alter her fortunes: she was now eligible for
    membership in the Daughters of the Daily Special, a local organization of waitresses with
    college degrees. Paying relatively stiff weekly dues and raising additional funds with bikini car
    washes and bake sales (most of the bakery goods were pilfered from restaurants in which the
    women worked), the Daughters established a fund that awarded grants to deserving members
    so that they might lay down their trays and devote some time to their true calling. When Ellen
    Cherry won hers, she painted for six months without interruption. The work she completed was
    hung in a restaurant. “1 escaped, my paintings didn’t,” she told the girls. It may have been the
    happiest period in her life.”

  58. JASON..

    do not worry..there is a time to help and there is a time to be helped…Burn will continue as a free magazine as is….when you are out of school and get rich, then you can buy me a beer if you want…


    nice to have you back…long time no see….you are so right on with both comments…the only little rub in the financial situation with Burn is not me and not Anton…..we both lose money on this every month…but it is all the others who now voluntarily work so hard every month for whom some compensation is only fair……particularly when producing Burn 01 and the EPF and just the daily grind of getting essays properly produced…..and we are paying for photographers as well..and we have a 15k grant…all of that is real money and does so far come from the donate button as per Ellen Cherry….

  59. GLENN…

    oh for sure…i know this…BUT it is a whole full time job just to go looking…none of us have any time to look….we can only look for the person who can go look….this is always the very hardest person to find in any business…when we find these people at Magnum etc, we know we have found someone special…and large salaries and impressive resumes do not always lead anywhere…so, this is no small task believe me….ain’t just having a beer at the bar….thanks for thinking amigo…hope we meet again soonest….

    cheers, david

  60. hello everyone!
    you know a .99cents/£1 donation button might be a good thing.
    for those of us without much (most of us probably) donating £1 is okay, but when and if we think of donating we often stall…..what can we afford? does that look mean? there’s always something else to pay etc…. it can all feel awkward and difficult …but if there was a £1 donate button to press whenever you felt the urge…..gosh, easy peasy…i would use it.

  61. I will be bullish about the comments issue.
    From one side the comments and participants are the unique spirit of burn. It make Burn special. But in my opinion it is hard to catch two birds at once. If burn want to be a serious “magazine of photography” it can’t be a pub full of friends. And people who spend a time here with friends can’t treat comment part too serious. It is just impossible, keep the freedom of feelings and opinions and behaviors with open hearts and simultaneously keep the all restricts of “serious magazine of photography”

    maybe I have too small faith in people, but In my opinion it is just impossible.
    I think David, you have to choose.
    and Burn magazine is more important than burn pub.
    But also I am not sure Burn will be THE BURN without all this freak comments made by the handful of people.

    in my opinion

  62. As others have already said…

    It’s an either –or kind of deal…
    You can either have a clean, overly polite and child safe environment, or actual, real discussions and debates between creative people with violently differing points of view…
    To that extent, comments can either stay as they are (even if in a back room), or they have go completely… You can’t have open comments from free thinking individuals AND control over the content and manner of them…

    Maybe a sort of voting (thumps-up button under each comment) could be the solution for editing/archiving the best comments without the need of a full time editor, so that they don’t get lost in the ocean of chitchat…
    It’s actually the same idea to which Imants had a violent reaction to its dark implementation (as in snitching others for bad behavior) only in a positive reinforcement kind of way…
    You know… write something useful and it might enter the hole of fame of Burn comments…


    hmmmm, very interesting….

    you both sort of see it the same way..either a pub full of friends OR a serious magazine…

    the only reason i have tried to do both here on Burn is that i totally do both in my real life…i have serious books, and serious friends AND we all go to the pub and have some serious and often conflicting chat…after all this is totally what Magnum is all about….so it is not an unknown concept and in fact reality for me…perhaps if you knew me outside of this online chat or had been to events i have organized you might feel different…but i am listening to you both…and thinking thinking…what you have said is what many in my circle have told me as well..but in the long run, i end up listening to dah only…all of my friends and advisors have told me over the years things like “forget NG, do not join Magnum, you will never make it on the web” etc etc etc….so i listen, but then i go by my gut…

    off now to washington and new york…for some serious gallery shows , some editing, and yea maybe a cold beer at the pub…

    cheers, abrazos, david

  64. DAH…
    I hear you…
    Acting based on what makes sense to me is kind of my motto too…
    I do listen to what others have to say, but in the end (since I’m the one who’ll have to live with the consequences of my actions) I try to follow only that inner voice…

    In any case, I do not consider Burn pub as an “un-serious” place…
    In fact I don’t believe that you should clean this place up in order for it to become “serious”…
    Actions speak louder than words, and by that mantra, Burn is probably the most serious outlet in the market…


    ok rushing a bit..one last thought and then i am not here for 24 hrs or so…IF we view Burn as sort of the staging area, audience building, talent finding format for Burn 01, 02 etc and those printed pieces as well as all the finished essays of which so so many are to be held high and the EPF and the Burn shows at international photo fests etc as being the primary output which are clean clean , then the “inside scramble” may not seem so bad…the comments under the essays have been very good for a very long time…only in Dialogue do we sometimes go off, but maybe that is a very small blip on the radar screen compared to all the good that comes out of here..just a thought…

    ok,driving north..in the rain…

    cheers, david

  66. Thirty spokes share the wheel’s hub;
    It is the center hole that makes it useful.
    Shape clay into a vessel;
    It is the space within that makes it useful.
    Cut doors and windows for a room;
    It is the holes which make it useful.
    Therefore benefit comes from what is there;
    Usefulness from what is not there.
    –I, 11, tao te ching

    i still don’t really understand all the discussion ;))….

    the goal, to me, is a simple one:

    what makes life easier for david/anton should be the only underlying concern…no others…

    i have no sympathy for those who complain about comments…if they find them uninteresting/obnoxious/rude, ignore…i dont read half the stuff either (let alone my own comments ;) )..no time…

    i come here for the pictures and for the discussion…..

    burn changes, so be it, life changes….why cling, why attach….

    David: just change (or not) whatever works for you and anton, the rest of us will adapt (or not), so be it! ;))…

    never thought i’d say this but this discussion is almost tideous ;))))))))))))))))))

    waiting for u in May


  67. DAVID,

    Since I was 14 and I stared to learn in art school I live in art society. And the same as you we do very serious things with cigarettes, glass of vine or bottle of vodka. Sometimes the best ideas came a day after party with huge headache. Serious life with party time. Every exhibition opening is with glass of vine and hours of talking about art and philosophy. I think best philosophy and art born in pubs with lack of consciousness.
    But like in every pub you talking some serious stuff and sometimes some stupid bullshits. With friends you can be a philosopher and jerk at once. In real; world the time will forget everything.
    But here is a few people with open heart who speaking like with friends and a million who watch it like a big-brother show. Because it is very serious magazine.

    and last sentence; I don’t write my own opinion to change yours, but to make yours more stronger, even if we not agree in this.

    so have a brave heart, and change (or not) the world (burn)

    heave a good time in Washington

  68. I agree a bit of order would do no harm – but there is also something inherently additive to burn, the endeavor, in that you need to check in frequently to keep current, be involved and see responses to questions posed, etc. What I have some trouble with is when the signal to noise ratio goes whack because of dance parties and such. Could there be a drinking and dancing room and one for quieter conversation? Maybe no need to make multiple forum style threads, just a slight division as would happen in real life…at the loft when the party gets wild but you have found someone you want to talk to about something you care about, you go to the roof, or to the steps where you can hear and get some perspective under the stars.

  69. David – I remember a gift given to you by Anton when he arrived at the Loft last year – you protected it as though it was a small child. I’ll buy you a big bottle of that and give it to you when I’m a bit “richer”…

  70. “if it’s too loud then you’re too old”

    (and that goes for the quieter room request)
    This is Burn not NYTimes freaky lens blog..
    If you want mediocre photo life then let’s get on Lens..
    Or even shoot for them..
    I could cares less.. If you prefer the Status Quo then work for them..
    I’d rather be %100 Burn..sorry

  71. Thodoris:)
    A “like” or “unlike” button under any comment?
    (like Facebook)? Yes I’d like that only if we could see who voted “like” or “not like”,
    Just like Facebook.. (but then again it will look like we are imitating Facebook.. Not?

  72. Panos…
    I’m not on facebook so I wouldn’t know, and I didn’t say anything about “unlike”…
    My thinking was closer to what I actually do, which is copy and paste the comments that I don’t want to lose in a word document on my hard drive…

  73. I think the “like” “unlike” buttons are probably a bad idea. There’d probably be competition to get the most “unlikes.” Could get ugly.

  74. Gordon,
    I appreciate what u do with your family portraits..
    It’s very important especially around this holiday times..
    One of my best friends is slowly dying in a hospital and he is
    in a few days is going to undergo a Second Open Heart Surgery..
    A second surgery within two weeks time.. They have to break all his bones around his chest,
    ONCE again and operate on his heart…
    First thing I will do once he is out (if he ever makes it),
    The first thing to do is his family photos..
    After his first surgery 2 weeks ago, when they took him back home to recover
    he asked me to do his family photos and I was stupid and over positive enough to say:
    Let’s do it next week when u feel stronger .. We have time…
    Next thing u know.. I drove him to the emergency yesterday and the bad news (like polka music) in my ears..
    Second surgery needs to be done asap.. Two holes in his heart need to be
    repaired immediately..
    Not even Jesus can get crucified twice.. At least not in a 2 week period!
    Insane! His family is devastated.. And what sucks even more is that he is younger than me!!!???
    Nor that age matters but I’m trying to say that his condition is pure fate/bad luck..
    Not caused by a habit like smoking or eating fatty fast food!
    It’s like the lotto but reversed:(

  75. Oh Thodoris , that’s great.. You are editing and archiving comments..?
    I would love to see how that evolves in a year..!
    I wish I could think of that when roadtrips started !
    Again great idea to save the best of the strongest comments:)

  76. Panos

    Yes, if you want to find out how imortant portraits are to people, wait until someone passed away. We hear a lot of “I wish we had” or “were so happy we did it when we did” stories. I’m frequently asked to do portraits of families when a member of the family learns that they are terminally ill. A few years ago I photographed an extended family just days before the patriarch died of a heart attack. Around the same time I photographed a man the day before his death. Less than two weeks ago, I was asked by the family of a 22 year old man who had been killed in a car accident to scan and print an old school photo of their son, as it was all they had.

    I encourage everyone to go ahead and make their art, make whatever kind of photographs they are passionate about, but don’t neglect to photograph your family and those close to you. You may eventually find that they are the most important photographs you ever make.

  77. DAH wrote,
    “i have serious books, and serious friends AND we all go to the pub and have some serious and often conflicting chat…”

    The difference, though, is that the real pub debate,regardless of how heated or personal it becomes,
    is not broadcast live over the internet to potential patrons of Burn or to clients with whom you might
    to trying to secure an assignment for an emerging photographer.
    I don’t believe it’s the serious or tough discussion that might impact negatively on Burn’s
    credibility but rather the tedium of personal slagging that too regularly finds its way into threads.

  78. panos,

    some conversations are worth to be conserved. like what you and Gordon talk about family portraits.
    if the new system were able to tag single messages, we have all the freedom.
    we talk, as it comes and at done point one can drag those tagged entries as one conversation and print it like a text on a burn x magazine.

    I definitely would appreciate this.
    there are lots conversations like this buried.

  79. I concur with the sentiment Thomas. Wondering if there is a reader among us that can donate their time and great skills to designing a way for this to happen. This and other great ideas. Mostly, I hear that people want to easily see what their fellow Burnians have said in response to a particular thread. The other mostly is the expressed wish for less brutish behavior. That is something that costs nothing except our time to ensure the words we write don’t inflict harm. Do no harm. Priceless.

  80. Lee,
    technically I have seen this already in forums.
    question to me is, can it be easily integrated without having to redesign everything.
    or, if a major redesign is planned anyway, can this be included.
    just my own questions and I believe the people dealing with it behind the scenes are thinking about it.

  81. Gordon,

    “I encourage everyone to go ahead and make their art, make whatever kind of photographs they are passionate about, but don’t neglect to photograph your family and those close to you. You may eventually find that they are the most important photographs you ever make.”

    wise thought, I totally agree with you

  82. Gordon yes.. I did work in a mall 10 years ago doing family portraits..
    With a d100 and a broken elinchrome studio light, not even 100W which couldn’t keep a steady consistent charge.. It was firing anytime giving me random power output so my photos were either under or over exposed.. The customers loved it.. It was an Antique type of low end family portraits..
    But the customers were buying everything at the spot.. Once they saw their little newborn or that grandpa that just passed away they had to buy the photo doesn’t matter the white balance or over/under exposure..
    And I couldn’t understand it back then.. Now I do but but back then I couldn’t get it..
    How come they like those wrong exposed photos? Why don’t they complain about my boss that doesn’t want to provide a set of new studio lights,? Why do they like these not technically perfect photos..????
    But I do get it now..
    Seeing my friend suffering and not shooting his family Xmas photos last week fills me up with guilt..
    Yes indeed family photos are more important , way more important than shooting stupid photos of ambulances for stupid NYTimes or Paris Hilton’s new pink Bentley for LATimes..
    Big fucking deal my selfish
    Dearest friends (and by “selfish” I dont mean ALL of you.. Of course not!.. But you know who you are, you figure it out!)
    Perspective my friends, perspective !!!!

  83. My childhood memories of my grandfather are very different and real in comparison to the photos I see of him now through the eyes of an adult. The photos are just that photos, the memories stay and evolve……………

  84. Imants,

    I agree. I remember that DAH once referred to the value of family snapshots as “memory triggers”. Of course, that function could also be accomplished by journal entries, old letters, or recollections at a family reunion. That being said, portraits, snapshots, and orally-passed stories are the only tie that many of us have to relatives that passed before we were born or when we were very young – as we have no first-hand memories of that person to “trigger”.

  85. I’m with Imants on not caring much about pictures of the grandfolk, or even parental generation. Can look at the children’s pics all day already though. Will probably have a room wallpapered with them when/if I get old. Sit in there and cry all day.

  86. Imants
    Photographs for me are absolutely magical artifacts, and connect me to other lives and times past. I collect old photographs, and am endlessly fascinated by the fact that I can gaze into the eyes of people long gone, and times long past.


    This is a photograph which I re-discovered in my aunt Lou’s photo album not long ago. Up until then, I only had a memory of having seen it once. It was taken about 1949, and shows myself, my dad, two uncles as young men and a family friend.
    My dad left our family when I was about ten. After that, I only saw him a few times until his death four years ago.
    The mere memory of this photograph brought me to tears when my first son was born. It made me realize that my dad would have loved me as much as I loved my little son, and that it must have been a huge source of pain for him to have left my brother and I behind when his life un-ravelled. At that moment, I forgave him.

    Photos to me are not “just photos”

  87. I got used to Dialogue over time…now if I miss a week or month, i go to latest and if interested I go searching ‘older comments’ to catch up…for me part of the charm of Burn is Dialogue and it’s pub-like atmosphere…but as a feature, certainly not for every one. Maybe an easier search or archive system is needed… generally i look for DAH’s thoughts first up just to get a read on the situation…then the usual suspects: Black, Panos, Akaky, Imants, Civi. Then people I haven’t read for a while: Kerry, Vink, Erica, Marcin. So I have my favorites…maybe searching for them directly would be a good feature. I see Dialogue as the ‘raw card’ which I appreciate for its authenticity, foibles, pearls of wisdom…I also look for a good fight but that’s another story. I like Dialogue as it is, that’s just me but I also know it can and should be improved…

  88. I can’t help myself –
    The “vote for your favorite” feature has always disgusted me. generally this feature is used by idiots who don’t know a great thing from a paper cut. Most people seem to only like pretty pictures. Meaning, depth, emotion and life inside the pictures has no meaning to them… From a recent mini test show of some pictures (many of you may have seen some of these on my site) I received some shocking comments in my book – the beach is so inviting and warm, so full of life, that house looks nice up there on the hill.. only one person read the overlooking house and somewhat haunting – they way I tried to depict it. The beach, if it’s not covered in a cold fog, it has some pretty rough waves.. not sure where inviting came from or warm in those… I suppose when shown at a time when it’s snowing here – a beach with no snow looks “warm” and someplace better to be…

    Anyway – I think a “like / dislike” button would be a waste of time in our community. Many of us here have more sophistication and are able to talk about the work in a greater context, place it with other work and think about the implications…

    or maybe I’m just wrong…

  89. Doug ;)
    “fights” are fun.. If there is a “good reason” for a fight then it is too much fun..
    Everyone appreciates a good Muhammed Ali boxing match here and there..of course not every day…
    Here and there…:)

  90. Jason,

    I agree with you in sentiment to photographs, but I believe that the like/dislike/rating feature is being discussed in regards to comments – in order to determine those that might be worthy of being archived or otherwise saved for future reference.

  91. Christians call it: “don’t sell yourself to Satan”
    Elitists call it: “don’t sell out ”
    I say: “don’t lose yourself in the process”
    ( u know what I mean!/British accent)

  92. Yea we got those family photos dating back to the late 19th century……… there was clean out last year and a big box of photos was created called “The Unknowns” looked good but triggered no memories………..

  93. Jim M. On photography:

    “Listen, real photography doesn’t say anything; it just ticks off the possibilities. Opens all doors. You can walk through anyone that suits you.”
    Jim Morrison

  94. CARSTEN…

    i have been using the Timbuk2 messenger bag as a camera bag for many years…i had written to them several times and told them they potentially had a great camera bag…i never heard back from them, but maybe they listened anyway and to many photogs who were using TB2 bags….what i did was just to drop in a Tenba 415 insert into their normal messenger bag, which is essentially what they have evidently built on their own…so yes, i am certain your new Timbuk2 works very well…by the way, the Tenba 415 insert turns ANY bag into a camera bag…i use it in small backpacks as well…that was always my secret for having a camera friendly bag that did not look like a camera bag and scream “steal me”…


    i sure am interested in what you have decided to shoot…please send me an email with links or ideas or whatever….yes, i think what this is all leading to here is perhaps a way to archive the little nuggets that do get written from time to time or actually even every day…i can see there is no perfect system….


    i just love looking at these old b&w snapshots…..and it doesn’t matter at all that i do not know the people in the photographs.. your family looks like my family …that is an interesting phenomenon in and of itself…the old pictures always to me suggest the brevity of life albeit not in a melancholy way…but when you see pictures of your grandfather for example, who has been dead for 30 years, sitting on his bike as a 5 year old, then you quickly get a handle on passage….my favorites of course, and i am sure for everyone, are old pictures showing our parents courting…anything better than nostalgia??

    last night i went down memory lane with the retirement party for an old friend at NatGeo…a slide show of all the photographers out on various assignments who shot there 25-30 years ago rotated throughout the party …100% nostalgia…of course i quickly grabbed my camera so as not to get too sentimentally lost in the “gee look at Jodi’s hair back then ” comments and started shooting the party…sometimes i shoot when i cannot think of anything else to do…..anyway, it will not be long before my pictures from last night will become very nostalgic on their own…

    the old picture of me that popped on the screen shot up on the frozen arctic ice whale hunting somewhere way way north of Barrow wearing a wolf ruff made for me by an Inuit woman did not conjure any nostalgia however…i was only thinking that it was good early on that i decided to change latitudes…i will leave that work for Frostfrog Bill…

  96. DAH – yes, the camera is indeed a time machine and one of THE most important inventions. Not that long ago people would have no idea what their ancestors looked like unless they were wealthy and could afford to have a painting made. Even then the result would probably be cosmetically enhanced.

    Now we all take it for granted. When I ask non-photographers taking digital photos of their families and friends if they back their photos up, they give me a quizzical look and say something like “I just load them onto my computer”. Many family treasures are going to be lost when the hard drive in the computer fails. At least the old photographs stored in a shoebox stood a chance.

    So who left Nat Geo? Best wishes to them!


  97. Thanks for the link Michael, I used to look forward to a Nat Geo magazine with either Bill Allard, DAH or Jim Stanfield as contributors. Jodi Cobb too. Hardly ever buy it now: I remember that photographs were given space, a nice, wide, white border, or double page, to bask in. When I look now I see a lot of bled-to-the-edge photographs that just seem to illustrate the writing. Both mediums should be equals (I don’t really mean that of course, the photographs are more important). Laughing.


  98. a civilian-mass audience

    I was out searching hard… to bring something to the BURNing table…
    but i found nothing…nada…only feta,olives and ouzo…
    well, i decided to bring over some of your ideas…

    Here what our BURNIANS wrote…after long hours of head scratching…and brainsqueezing …

    “A seperate “best of burn dialogue” would be awesome as many gems do indeed get burried.
    I also love the idea of being able to filter or search individual posters by name…”

    One thing to say against forums is that they can be over structured (by design),
    which gives a rather cold unfriendly feel and keeps things rather divided. That is far from what Burn is about,
    so I would hope that things wouldn’t move too far in that direction.

    Hopefully, there will be a page where we will be able to see who has posted recent comments to which forums.
    I like that aspect of the current page. It might be interesting if there were some automated way to group comments by author and subject,
    or at least forum, as well. I’m sure a lot of people would like to see all of David’s comments, or all of them on a particular subject, with one click.
    Leave the slideshow, editorial content, and comments for the featured work more or less as is, if that’s the easiest.
    Then maybe have a nondescript link to “other dialog” that goes to a page with the different forums.
    On that page, you can have forums where it’s encouraged to stay on topic and other forums where delicate souls can enter at their own risk.

    I like the idea of discussion groups. If you make your discussion group open and free that would be a great idea.
    I think that idea works best when you have curated comments for showing burn features.

    I would like to have the possibility to favourite articles in a thread. Or to somehow bookmark them. –
    Makes finding even easier.

    This is how it goes when trying to communicate solely through black & white text from a keyboard.
    It’s not perfect–but it ain’t all that bad either. I see no reason to change anything.
    However, if there is a change I’m sure everyone will embrace it and hope for the best

    Hopefully the forums put a little structure to the madness
    (and also make it possible to look at the work without looking at the comments

    Amen to All

    To me; the free-wheeling, organic inspired dialogue is one of Burn’s most important features.
    One topic dissolves or evolves into another and I think inspires the more interesting comments

    I say this:

    What if we could use a central dialogue place like it is now, with DAH throwing in his thinking pieces, and then,
    when a comment pops up, that could be worth discussing further under a separate chapter and archiving it as such,
    we copy that comment(s) – not into an individual word document, but into a forum …
    So everything people find worthwhile, could be searched and found later.
    People could add to the threads any time with updates or whatever.
    And we still would have “Dialogue” for chitchatter and the wild stuff, that maybe does not fit anywhere but it is fertile nonetheless.
    At least it has proven to be fertile more than once so far.

    PETE M.
    DAVID… I am not sure the best way to implement it, but I think as long as people keep the discussions about essays and single photos
    ON TOPIC and all the other discussions in another place, things will be much easier to follow.

    too many threads as in a forum would, i think dilute and confuse too much.
    but some way to ‘tag’ comments and have them fall into an archive with categories

    MIKE R
    Good idea, and the forum or whatever it gets called can still (sometimes) be a place for photographic discussion.

    I wonder, if there should be a section of the site titled for instance, “Wisdom”, and have it being a place where one can go for answers
    Valery Rizzo
    I like the addition of a forum idea, and then the rest of Burn staying the way it is.

    “… at the end of the day, most trolls wouldn’t have the gall to say to another person’s face half the things
    they anonymously post on the Internet.” Julie Zhou

    keep the freedom of feelings and opinions and behaviors with open hearts and simultaneously
    keep the all restricts of “serious magazine of photography”

    Actions speak louder than words, and by that mantra, Burn is probably the most serious outlet in the market…

    Maybe no need to make multiple forum style threads, just a slight division as would happen in real life…
    at the loft when the party gets wild but you have found someone you want to talk to about something you care about,
    you go to the roof, or to the steps where you can hear and get some perspective under the stars.

    I do think a redesign of BURN beyond the blog-style is long overdue and could provide a little more structure
    without limiting the possibilities…
    a. seriously reconsider white on dark text. The gray background is good for photos, not so much for text.
    b. David, please, please, please consider showing more of your work here.
    With a redesign you could do this while simultaneously showcasing emerging work and avoiding what you consider uncool

    If it is decided that current comments structure is to be retained on Burn for dialogue (rather than switching to a forum),
    perhaps there are some existing WordPress plug-ins that can improve the search and archiving of comments.

    I certainly would not want Burn to turn into another Lightstalkers. It can be difficult to follow the dialogue
    if you don’t read every day and the topic is jumping all over the place, but that’s part of Burn’s character for me.

    The right sponsor is out there…lots of money …no expectations…hard to shock…gotta keep looking!

    I see Dialogue as the ‘raw card’ which I appreciate for its authenticity, foibles, pearls of wisdom…

    The more rules there are the more they can be broken..

    AND You are so many …
    i just got dizzy…

    what not to Love…

  99. a civilian-mass audience

    Happy Birthday to DIEGO ORLANDO…!!!
    And thank you for helping me out…with my BURN 01 orders…
    I can be Handful sometimes…:)

  100. a civilian-mass audience

    PANOS …tell to your friend…
    That we,BURNIANS are sending over…the best energy…!
    “When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it.”
     Henry Ford

  101. Michael K, “Don’t you just want to be a fly on the wall and let those two riff for a while?” – yep, and I bet they left a few beer-bottle tripods behind when they left.

    Civi, you’ve been busy!

  102. I really like the way the comments section scans like a screenplay – off/off Broadway – it adds to the speed of exchange and associations. Archiving may have to lead to a titling of responses, off-shoots layered upon off-shoots, slowing down the free-flow that I savour. Maybe a discussion as to how important filing and archiving really is should be another starting point of conversation for change. I’d vote that they disappear and turn into dust if it meant the present design format has to alter.

    Camera bags…I tried using peanut and jelly sandwiches as a substitute for neoprene inserts in my (dark-brown) messenger bag. I have a big appetite and it turned into a temporary measure. I think I misread the Professor of Bagology’s requirements.

  103. Tenba 415 insert: DAH’s secret to making Anti “Steal Me” camera bags.

    DAH – I have been wondering if you did this! I can see why you would be such a Bag man.

    Since the tools of this trade are often an item coveted and often stolen, and the more branding a company places on such tools, the more easily these tools are spotted by potential thieves.

    Therefore, for a photographer the bag is a key part of the “uniform.” It’s important that it not stand out as an item of distinction for it will draw too much attention. Depending where you are in the world, this may be very important to consider. For within the bag lies the tools of one’s job and without one’s tools, one cannot complete the work they are to do. The bag is a “camouflage in plain sight” technique used to protect these tools. Choosing the bag that is right for the job is of the highest importance. Making a mistake in this portion of planning could cost you more than just tools, perhaps even your life, or lives of others… (depending where you are in the world)

  104. MW – I would if I lived in NY! … Missed the HCB show in Chicago – found out about it a couple days before it ended and Josef Kouldelka was giving the artist talk… Man I wanted to go – would have too but since I hadn’t known about it – I was already committed to covering an event that same evening.

  105. David,

    Thanks for the Tenba 415 insert tip :) I’m gonna have to give that a try. Hmmm too many bags…

  106. an unedited version of my interview with Bill Allard that is appearing now on New York Times Lens Blog will appear here soonest…and maybe a few more pictures by Bill…a new feature spinning out of the Allard interview will be coming soonest on Burn… this will be a series of what i will call Conversations with a variety of folks in the biz from book designers , top editors, artists, writers, and of course photographers…i think this will end up being a very popular, entertaining, and educational mainstay here on Burn….ok, off to the Allard opening….stay tuned…

  107. a civilian-mass audience

    We are not going anywhere…we haven’t moved…We are tuned…


  108. David,

    Thank you in advance for posting the complete Allard interview. I am very much looking forward to Conversations!


    Some has written here that they would miss the free-rambling/stream-of-consciousness comments if we moved to a forum platform. What if we utilized a forum software, with more advanced tools for searching posts, but limited the creation of new threads to David? In that respect, DAH would create a new thread analogous to the creation of a new Dialogue post, and we would post follow-up comments in that thread much like we currently do.

  109. ALL:

    For those that are interested, Places Journal (Design Observer) has just published the second feature on my work, which is part of an ongoing series. This time it is my photographs from Saskatchewan, which is an ongoing project – or will be when I am able to make another trip there.

    Here’s the link:


    An interesting dialogue developed in the comments section during my last feature, and the editors and I are hoping for something similar to happen with this latest feature.

    Here’s a link to the previous feature if you would like to read the comments and my responses to them:



    Justin P

  110. I too took David’s advice on the Tenba insert. It’s proved very useful. Yep, just throw it in any old bag.

    Went by the Allard opening. Great photography. Beautiful prints. Beautiful photography. Great prints. Struck me as a very nice man as well.

  111. a civilian-mass audience

    No sleep till – Brooklyn !
    Foot on the pedal
    Never ever false metal

    Engine running hotter than a boiling kettle

    My iob ain’t a job
    It’s a damn good time

    No sleep till –
    Another plane
    Another train
    Another bottle in the brain

    City to city I’m running my rhymes.
    On location
    Touring around
    the nation

    ‘Cause I’ll be rockin’ this party eight days a week!

    No sleep till BURNtown!!!

  112. a civilian-mass audience

    REF : bags…

    You can use diaper bags…for DADDIES and MOMMIES…
    You might even get a better seat in the plane…:)
    I have one for my chickens…

    Love you All!

  113. GORDON…



    that sounds like a major disaster waiting to happen…i can relate…just a couple of weeks ago i put two powdered donuts in my camera bag that i thought i would eat while driving when shooting outer banks …in and out of bag shooting all day…..totally forgot about the donuts…that is until i went through airport security a couple of days later..what do you think two powdered donuts look like after a couple of days in the bottom of a camera bag? i literally thought i might have ruined my GF1..but that camera is tough …i spilled tequila on it and it only messed up screen on the back..made it “cloudy” so to speak…and it just now survived barely the inch of sugar and flour on the bottom of my bag….shhh, do not tell anyone…i wouldn’t want folks to think i was a walking disaster…


    why the drive by hello last night? i introduced you to Allard for a reason..thought you might like to hang later…you missed a good time…

    cheers, david

  114. JASON..

    yes, your bag evaluation on the importance of look as part of function was impressive…please note that i de-brand everything..i use a magic marker to eliminate all brands most including my cameras…i had started putting black electricians tape over my Leica brand even back when i was in college…(i bought an old Leica w my paper route money when i was 14…no i could not afford a Leica in college, but could oddly when i was 14 because i only had to spend my money on one thing)…anyway, yes for your own safety, hide brands…

  115. Had a look at the photos and interview at the Lens blog. Hate to admit I wasn’t that familiar with Allard before, but what an amazing set of photos. Timeless.

  116. on the notion of bill’s exhibition..

    his book IS GORGEOUS :))))…got my meaty hands on it last week :))

    i’m sure the prints were spectacular….hard to imagine a body of work in color over the last 40 years more deserving of wide recognition :)))…

    great for him!

    sublime photography!


  117. DAVID …

    yes, that is a good concern and I hope that the LENS interview will help…and really, his book is MAGNIFICENT!…i was stunned…i din’t know alot of bill’s work either until after ‘discovering’ him when LOOK3 showcased his work in the first year…but god damn, he has produced some iconic imagery….startling he isn’t known wider….

    I will be very happy to see the interview in full (with a link to his book) here at Burn :)))…

    he deserves wide recognition…

    i loved that you, as a friend, interviewed him! :)))

  118. The prints really are exceptional. A lot of times I go to galleries and would just as soon look at the work on a nice computer screen, but these are at another level entirely. I’m curious why he wouldn’t get wide recognition? Is it because his work is far more often simply beautiful than edgy and the art and photojournalism worlds generally have a preference for edgy? I’m a bit like that myself, but I think this work transcends the confines of that kind of thinking. Perhaps part of it is how so much of his work is personally evocative. The quality is the only thing that would surprise me about the pheasant hunters or the buck knife if I found those photos in a box at my grandmother’s. I saw those scenes often as a child and he has captured them in their essence.

    Anyway, sorry I missed my chance to speak with him more in depth. I had a few things going on and almost didn’t make it there at all. Next time give me a heads up or a nod and a wink or something.

  119. “Not being encumbered with equipment is vital to quick reflexes. “Normally, I won’t use a tripod unless I’m forced to,” he says. “It’s a bit of an awkward tool, and it requires some space and constant adjustment. Also, if you walk into a bar carrying a tripod–well, it’s bad enough walking in with a camera. With a tripod you’re really attracting attention. I really think you can make your own tripod.” Photographer and friend Ira Block remembers a demonstration in a Paris bistro, where Allard braced his camera atop a beer bottle to get the picture.”

    From “The Photographic Essay”, W.A. Allard, 1989

    Seems there’s the “beer can lesson” at Nat Geo.. the things serve as strobes, tripods..hmm.. might have to take up drinking beer ;)

  120. MW…BOB

    sorry, i thought i had given everyone a heads up on that show…so pleased you at least got there…just was trying to give you that extra opportunity that i honestly try to give all my Burn friends whenever we meet in person….

    why perhaps not ‘wide recognition”? ..i suppose it depends on how we view “wide” and how we define “recognition” doesn’t it? as i mentioned to Bob, i want to do a post that will take some of this in on a more overall level..not specific to Allard or to me…from my interview , i think you could discern some slight paranoia about international acceptance afforded any NatGeo effort…after all, NatGeo is “widely recognized” by a mass middle American audience, but perhaps not “widely recognized” by a more international elitist audience…

    another thing to think about and connected…how will the Alex Webb retrospective coming from Aperture be regarded as opposed to the Allard retrospective coming from NG? both men shoot for NatGeo…Webb got his whole Amazon from NG , yet published with Aperture….think about this..perhaps seemingly meaningless subtleties to some, but serious considerations for those who play in this arena…

    many arguments can of course be thrown back and forth…let me get the whole interview up, you can think about the whole deal, then we will put all of this up for discussion..it is all about the individual recognition as opposed the brand recognition of the publication and the confusions and misinterpretations thereof of the work produced…for sure i have personally felt both gratitude for the support i received from NatGeo and at the very same time have embarked on projects (my biggest American Family for example) with no NG support very specifically so that work would not have on it any connection with NG…therefore being 100% dah no question about it….my publishers have been Phaidon and Powerhouse, with only Cuba an NG book…

    i am NOT saying that Allard would necessarily agree…after all he joined the staff as i was leaving the staff…he became an employee, a status i chose never to have again for personal reasons and not any negative relationship with the Magazine at all…i have a terrific relationship with the Magazine i think because i am not an employee…..as an employee i was just not a happy man…probably psychological but psychological is from where all the juices flow…

    i am poorer because of this choice, but come hell or high water i want the independent production status…i think most Magnum photographers feel the need to do as much on “our own” as we can possibly do…at the same time we need to earn a living…this is always the balance, and i will discuss further when i have bit more time to do so…

    even with Burn , i imagine i really would not want a huge sponsor here even though i could fantasize it would make my like easier……however, then i might have created a “job” for myself…i like this struggle to make ends meet here every month and we can do as we please ..without the struggle, one gets lazy or complacent or buys “the company line”…i think you can see where i am going with this…stay tuned..

    cheers, david

  121. Laughing … I’m also jealous because I missed the show..
    But this is what I’m gonna say to feel better:
    “film/exhibition spectators are quiet vampires.”
    Jim M.

  122. a civilian-mass audience

    “I have walked that long road to freedom. I have tried not to falter; I have made missteps along the way. But I have discovered the secret that after climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can only rest for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not ended.”
       Nelson Mandela

    AKAKY…my blue-eyed son…!


  123. David :))…indeed….anxious to jump into that discussion, for sure….and as you and i have disussed before, i too have always remained independent (this independence has even cause a problem with the gallery that used to show my work)…cause in the end, i need to be able to make the stuff i have to make, not because it is so important (it surely isnt) but because its too much a part of me to do others…burn is as close to being a company man as i’ve ever been ;)))…looking forward…


    OK, here is one (of many) of my own family pics…it’s the first picture in the essay that Visura published in May…on asia and memory and blindness….

    you need not look at the essay or read the text, i’m linking here just to show you the picture

    It is my mom, dad, and sean, chris and me in Taipei….where i lived as as kid…can you guess which one of the blue=-eye’d tottlers is me??? ;)))


  124. David; One thing that found so striking about Bill’s book is how reproduction technology has changed since his “The Photographic Essay” was published. The reproductions (of the same images) in his new book are just miles ahead of the early volume.

  125. As an aside…

    Don’t you just love it when you’ve had a busy day sorting out project shoots etc. You get to bed about midnight, tired, droopy eyes. You turn the light out and “bing” eyes wide open again, mind whirring over new (and old) ideas. And the last thing you hear just before you drop off to sleep is a blackbird starting the dawn chorus…So you know it’s about 5am, cos it’s late spring here and first light is about 6am. 7am you’re up again having the day’s first coffee. Oh well; better luck today! :-)

  126. Ross, “One thing that found so striking about Bill’s book is how reproduction technology has changed since his “The Photographic Essay” was published. The reproductions (of the same images) in his new book are just miles ahead of the early volume.” – I have the book, Ross: I recently saw some “vintage” television (about ten years old) and the quality was appalling. One area of technology that is not keeping apace is film scanning. Sometimes touted as the “best of both worlds”, film photographers are using ten-year-old technology.

  127. MARCIN…

    now you have just demonstrated a classic “miss” on Burn comments…we showed and discussed this Visura essay by Bob on Burn several months ago at great length…you were busy i suppose and missed it…so we are definitely going to figure out a way to archive some of our best comments , links, etc…if Gordon had not posted the snapshot of his family, and i had not made the comment on family snaps, then Bob would not likely have re-posted the Visura piece …anyway, i am pleased you are now seeing this essay…

    cheers, david

  128. Marcin :))…thanks so much….: my favorite picture from that essay, isn’t even mine: its the one of my dad, mom and brothers…and of course, the last pic: the 4 of us in florida….

    ayway, t wait ’till you see what i’m creating, i hope, for Burn :))….as about photography…well, as u know, everything i do seems a failure, except being a support…photography: just my way of living with the buffoon who is me ….


  129. Hello all,

    been out and about a bit here and there, but never too too far away.

    Without reading past the end 2 pages, it seems we are in the cyclical (as it shold be) discussion of comments and format and improvement and whatnot….

    My only immediate thought, that would add value for me to the current existing format, is that if it would remember how far I’ve read when I am logged in and return….that way I can either tray and read all, skim just for highlights, or say “holy crap, I’m so far back I’ll never catch up” and just jump right to the end.

    I use a lot of forums for different topics/subjects/work/….I’m not sure I’d like a true threaded style for here, I fear we’d dilute the universe for people to chime in on that which interests them if it is too divided up….

    all for now – more soonest…

    good light

    p.s. CIVI: ate grape leaves and kibbeh and hummus with bread and drank good wine in the spirit of you…

  130. a civilian-mass audience

    Thank you for “refreshing” my memory…
    VISURA…I love it…I love it…!
    And yes, you are not only the kid in the middle…but also the soul of the family…
    I wish we have more “buffoons” like you in the Universe…
    Keep rocking!

    You are bringing light to this place…a BURNING light!

    P.S now, you are talking :)….Viva to the Untamed spirits…!!!

  131. My question for you Civi, is kibbeh nayye or kibbeh semmiye (sp?) for you? The baked was good…but have to admit I like good kibbeh nayye better….

    And of course…baklava…who is a fan? You never know what shows up at this time of year!

  132. “i had started putting black electricians tape over my Leica brand even back when i was in college…” – DAH

    DAH – do you still use electricians tape? how do you cope with the sticky mess in the warm sun? Or maybe that’s your secret for not dropping a camera? hahaha

  133. DAH said : “…please note that i de-brand everything..i use a magic marker to eliminate all brands most including my cameras…i had started putting black electricians tape over my Leica brand even back when i was in college…(i bought an old Leica w my paper route money when i was 14…no i could not afford a Leica in college, but could oddly when i was 14 because i only had to spend my money on one thing)…anyway, yes for your own safety, hide brands…”

    My girlfriend’s response – “Or you could just shoot a Holga. Just stay away from the Hipsters who might want to steal it.”

  134. a civilian-mass audience

    I will go for the kibbeh nayye…too!!! It’s not a Greek dish though…
    Hard to find it …in my place…
    But baklava…oh,yeah…baklava…and kourabiedes…
    Time to break the scale…:)))

    What not to love…thanks for sharing…!!!
    Hmmm…don’t be surprised if you find out one day… I look more like IMANTS :)
    no hair attached…:))))))))))
    And yes…we love women…Alll women…
    Viva Life…!!!

  135. so pleased you at least got there…just was trying to give you that extra opportunity that i honestly try to give all my Burn friends whenever we meet in person…

    David, I felt a little bad about the drive-by hello thing at the Kasher gallery the other night and hope you weren’t offended.

    I recently mentioned I was working on a project that includes meth labs. The working title is Rurality. The story is not about meth labs, or even meth, but meth is an important element. And it was my gateway drug to this project, something I became interested in a little more than ten years ago. I began with no plan to publish anything. The print journalists on the ground have covered it very well and although I began contemplating a photo project roughly five years ago, I figured I didn’t have the skills to pull it off. But recently I realized that meth wasn’t the story I was interested in, that I saw a more important story that no one was telling, and I’m feeling significantly better about my photo skills these days so I began working on getting access to players on both sides of the law. As I already noted, my two sensational arrangements — a working lab and a police ride along to bust a lab — fell through, but I did conduct several very interesting interviews and took quite a few foundational photos.

    It was a map that provided the first necessary insight, a map that showed concentrations of meth lab busts in the United States. The map had an epicenter. What, I wondered, is so special about this one little area that so many people are driven to throw their lives away cooking meth? A much more interesting subject than a drug or even drug casualties. And meth is just the sensational aspect. It goes much, much deeper than that.

    You know I like to joke. Did you hear the one about the meth addict who just got out of prison for cooking? I’m done with meth he says vehemently. Never gonna do that shit again. What are you going to do? Ice, he says. I’m gonna cook Ice from now on.

    Then there’s the guy who shot his girlfriend five times in the head after he’d been up for a couple weeks, a couple years really. Somehow she managed to live and he got forty years. But he’s a smart guy, did everything right in prison, got a college degree, and managed to get out in eight. It’s difficult for recently paroled meth casualties to get professional work so he took a job driving trucks, usually twenty or so hours a day. Within a week he was doing meth again. Technically, he’s living with his son though in reality he’s living in his truck. Turns out the son had a meth lab which exploded. Guy’s a recently paroled meth addict living in a house where a meth lab exploded and he tests positive for meth. Bye bye.

    Even though this story’s not about meth, or even illegal drugs, those things are important environmental factors. The more interesting thing in that last anecdote is the parent/child bonding through substance abuse. That was a common element in a significant number of stories. Perhaps a clue to what makes that area so special in the negative sense? No, just another symptom. So many symptoms.

    Although I am a detached storyteller, in real life I get emotionally involved with the people in my stories. These symptoms of which I speak are truly heart rending. So many people throwing their lives away for no good reason. They all think it’s like that everywhere, but it’s not. The meth lab epicenter in the United States is its own special hell. Most of what they believe about their hometown is illusory. The biggest problem is one of perception. They see no hope and act accordingly. Yet they have all the privileges that come with being born white and middle class in the United States. The doors were always open.

    By contrast, you know I’ve also been working with dysfunctional people living in dysfunctional realities in the South Bronx. I’ve met so many people who have no chance whatsoever in this world. Yet to a person they are optimistic. The seventeen year old who’s already been shot twice and is, not surprisingly, flunking out of a school he rarely attends, sincerely believes that everything is going to work out and that he will be wildly successful. Same thing with the bi-polar kid with serious anger management issues who lives in a shelter in Queens and commutes an hour and a half to a crappy school in the Bronx, except when he doesn’t, which is most days. He’s as optimistic about his future as the smart, well-adjusted rich kids in the finest prep schools. Probably more so. It’s not like that out in Rurality. Just the opposite. People with nothing but opportunity see no future at all. Why?

    Anyway, so I’ve got all these photos to edit and over six hours of audio and a lot of notes and not as much time to devote to putting it all together as I’d like. I’m on the Kasher gallery’s mailing list and try to go to photography openings, so I was aware of the Allard show and was planning to go, but got to working and almost talked myself out of it. I used the trip there to listen to interviews and had gotten so engrossed in it that I was still listening as I looked at Allard’s photos. Then I saw you and thought I’d better say hello. I very much appreciated the introductions to Allard and the other interesting people in your circle. It’s not something I ever expected or sought and, unfortunately, I was a bit distracted by the tales from Rurality and missed a special opportunity. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to provide those kinds of opportunities. Not even talking about myself. I know you treat everyone well. Thanks again.

  136. Civi…yes yes, not a greek dish, but my wife is 2nd generation Lebanese, and her mom makes the kibeh for special occaisions – not sure I would trust it in anywhere but home or best restaurants, and not maybe even there unless I knew them…

    MK..and all on the bag discussion…I do the same thing…actually, a quick tale will also share another advantage of the insert approach (I use the Tenba messgenger bag insert, about $20, very adaptable although it doesn’t look it in the photos)…so the tale…last time I was in NYC I was out on a bit of a flaneur expedition, camera bag at the time an insert in a cheap-o canvas messegner bag. Worked, but a bit large…I walked by one of those ubiquitos bag stores on a side street block, the kind with hundreds of bags of all kinds in the window, where I saw a canvas messenger bag with better pockets and a zipper and a better size….I walked in, asked to see it from the window, verified the insert would fit, and bought it for the negotiated price of $11. Swapped the insert into it, put the stuff from the one pocket it had into one of the pockets on the new one, and walked out….and then gave my old one to a person on the street who seemed appreciative…new bag to fit the neighborhood, so to speak.

    On the topic of older files and printing (can’t remember where or who said what on this), one thing Kael Alford pointed out to me when we were chatting while she was here for her exhibit/lecture at University of Kentucky Art Museum, is that when she shot the photos that are in her book Unembedded, digital technology was still very new, and she shot what today would be considered very low res low quality files – all of them .jpg. They actually looked very nice even fairly large, which she said was a credit to her printer…and that the newer ones were even better.

    it’s the image…all the work….go out and make some good images today….

    good light,

  137. Shoot, forgot this part…

    MW, if you have not seen it, you might want to check out the indie movie Winter’s Bone..although fictional, it has a very real feel on some of the impact of meth in the Ozark Mountain region…

  138. a civilian-mass audience

    I am coming over…call mamma…tell her…civi is coming
    Special occasion …:)))

    Keep shooting ALL…I am going next door…
    Who is this?
    This is IMANTS.
    Hello IMANTS…:)))))))

    Ok,enough…I will be back later

  139. Very good to see Bill Allard being discussed here again. Some of you may remember the Q&A session he did here sometime ago.

    Allard’s work was the first colour photographs I took notice of after discovering it in NG magazine. I cannot remember which story it was though that first had an impact on me. Could have been

    When I was living in St. John’s, Newfoundland there was a used bookstore down town that had a huge stash of NGs that nobody seemed to want. It was here that I was able to find the back issues of NG including some of the earlier stories by Allard, Sam Abell, DAH, and James Stanfield. This would have been around the year 2000. They were selling them for 25 cents each if you bought ten. I used to go home with a box full at a time.

    One day in the same store I discovered three copies of Allard’s book The Photographic Essay, one of them was still sealed in plastic. I remember being amazed and excited by such a find. I took them up to the cash desk and got all three books for a real deal – I seem to recall it being under $30.00. I felt a bit greedy buying all three books, but I figured best that somebody who really appreciates them gives them a life.

    Ten years on the sealed copy is still sealed.

    It’s a great little book, and very useful – perhaps as close to a workshop in a book as you’ll get.

    I look forward to seeing Allard’s new book. It’s about time a serious retrospective of his work came out. For those that don’t know his older books, I urge you to seek them out.

    This new show is one I would really like to see. Can’t make it to New York though.

    The talk of how much recognition this book and show will get is very interesting. The irony is that Allard is a true painter with the camera, but I’m sure the serious critics and reviewers will struggle to take the exhibition seriously because of his association with NG magazine, and perhaps his subject matter. It is probably the best photography show in the city right now too!

  140. Justin
    Great score. I check out used book stores for photo books now and then. Found my copy of Avedons American West in one.
    I envy you your time in St. Johns. Martha and I spent several days there on our whirlwind tour of Newfoundland a few years ago. What an amazing place. We wanted to move there.

  141. Justin; I already had a copy of “The Photographic Essay” but found a scruffy copy being sold off at a local library because in their (actual) words “It was out of date and nobody got it out anymore” So I handed them the 50c they wanted for it and took it home!

  142. a civilian-mass audience

    “Pietersen piles on agony for Aussies with double ton…”
    To cricket or not to cricket…
    ROSSY…I’ll give a chicken(reddish or brownish)

    Tick talk…tick talk…:)))

  143. ROSS,

    50c, that is a deal, even if it was scruffy.

    A book like that deserves more respect from a library!

    If you are thinking of passing it on to a deserving fellow photographer, perhaps you should offer it as the prize for DAH’s next Burn competition!


    Yes St. John’s is a special place. Haven’t been back there since 2003. Hope to one day return and photograph there. I expect that a lot has changed though.

  144. MW…

    well, now you have me absolutely engrossed in your meth lab etc….hey a gallery opening is a gallery opening and i never put any more emphasis on those kinds of things than is necessary..i do try to light a candle for my friends whenever they have an opening and i would say that openings and shows are really my only social life beyond close family and friend gatherings….but, i do not go out to just party and my “circle of friends” are generally very focused individuals..

    more importantly, my work is either my own photography or digging through the contact sheets or archives of others trying to cobble together a meaningful body of work…so forget the gallery opening, but thanks for your letter…i can see you were busy…so now,let’s look at what you are doing with the meth labs…i am a little confused because i know you were doing something with schools (yes?) and i have seen your wanderings around town, but this meth lab work or related sounds like a promising focal point…and for some not totally explainable reason i see you doing some really incisive portraits…maybe of the meth addicts? i do not know….maybe it is because i just want to see portraits of meth addicts….it is an addiction i do not understand…i actually “get” heroin, cocaine, etc…see why folks locked on it…but meth?? anyway, let’s either talk here on this whenever you want or by private email or meeting when possible…

    cheers, david

  145. Hey David, sure, let’s talk. I’ve been meaning to hit you up for 20 or 30 minutes to finish my little essay on your workshop so maybe I can ask you questions about that and you can ask me about meth labs. Though hopefully, meth labs are just a part of it. During the third interview I conducted, I noticed that all three subjects had said something to the effect that meth gets all the headlines but it’s actually a small part of the overall problem. Dense I may be, but third time, as they say, is a charm, so I started asking different questions. Most of the answers I got were truly heart breaking. A few bizarre. Of course I’ve given a lot of thought to visual approach and came up with a strategy and did a lot of groundwork, but I’m sure I could benefit greatly from some professional advice on planning for the next trip. The story is complicated. I’ll drop you an email later.

  146. a civilian-mass audience

    Is MR.ALLARD coming over…???

    I have stored wine in my cellar since 1960…5 DECADES…

  147. Ross I’ll let you guys win at the cricket………. Aw; c’mon we’ve only lost about 9 in a row.. But i promise I won’t mention The Ashes. Hoping for the promised rain to arrive today? :-)

  148. Nah the upstarts deserve to lose. Ponting has always been a right pain sorta reflects the arrogance of the Australian Cricket Board. They are sore losers and will kill a game rather than lose

  149. THOMAS…

    intention…if we want a story to be published, but not on top, we have to “trick” the time published…i felt The Family was our primary on top story and that Hornets Nest was our number two story…a subjective call to be sure…

  150. Re bags; For the last 3-years I’ve used a messenger bag made by Kathmandu (a local outdoors store). I have put the insert from an old photo backpack into it. The insert was from one of those packs that had the photo gear portion at the bottom, and the top half was a typical day pack.

    It’s not waterproof, but has taken a hell of a beating. Just biff it into the washing machine and it’s good to go again. It has worked so well that I bought another 2, because they were being discontinued.

  151. Yea I’m all for discreet bags nothing light hiding. In the image following I usually use the RD1 with a 40mm (aka60mm) lens for portraiture not many notice the camera as for the landscape when I use the 21mm it don’t give a rat’s arse…………. http://www.etrouko.com/im.htm

    The Gf1 is for the bad end of town…….

  152. I’ve been trying to catch up comments, and now have also had “focus time” (I hate to try and rush to see the essays) and looked at the newer essays…prompting a question related to format (and perhaps this is part of the discussion which I have missed…)

    Is the selected single a thing of the past? The three newest entries under the “Works In Progress” (where there are still the older singles) are all now essays….or is this just a coincidence of timing?

    DAH: Are there only essay submissions now?

    in a cold snap and recovering from a cold here….hope everyone has good light

  153. DAH – about this top story alignment thing, I may be falling behind but I thought all front page works/ paid spots were going to be previously unpublished /embargoed, does that mean ok to be published in print, but not on other internet magazines?

  154. David..

    I do understand the “primary top story” thing, but not sure if pushing the 2nd story back like done here is a good way to handle it.. you do publish essays so they get looked at and discussed, right?

  155. GORDON…

    we just do not receive powerful singles….we receive mostly camera club singles is the best way to put it…no way to do one per day…at least not on the level i would like….send me one…i will publish in a heartbeat if strong enough…thanks….


    there has been chat of this and that here in comments as kind of behind the scenes banter…and we are still operating on our old system…nothing will change i think until january 1, 2011…i will do an official post soonest…we are having to totally re-think our payment options…there are many complications with paying photographers…one of the complications of course being “where is the money supposed to come from?” …there are options here as well,but no easy answers….in the future, for sure we will only be interested in original work done for Burn or exclusive to Burn for payment….


    you are thinking that if a story never is “on top” it will not be discussed?? i do not put stories up so they WILL be discussed, but they are in our format so they CAN be discussed…over the last year there have been many stories which were either never on top but rather published simultaneously with another story…simultaneous publication with our current system does require that one be on top of the other…if we are able to afford a new design , then we could have multiple stories all being equal in display…and the same for the archive…an equal display of all stories published…if we get this going along with iPad compatibility, then Burn will truly be an amazing archive of material..right now one is vaguely aware of our archive..but with a new system the archive would be very much alive….you would suddenly see 300 essays ready to view instead of just the ones on the front page and the others more obscured or hidden…

    cheers, david

  156. David..

    “you are thinking that if a story never is “on top” it will not be discussed??”

    No, that’s not what I intended to say, only that if pushed back they’re less.. ehm.. on top.. of course they still can and will be discussed anyway, luckily there’s people out there who takes the time to look through at least the front page, not everybody is rushing.. my trail/line of thoughts was more on ‘first story needs less feedback, second story might need more’, for the photographer being published that is, when and if they need and want the feedback at all..

    And yes, there’s for sure a lot buried within the site, a new system will be great, whenever you all get the time to do that.. to me it seems you’re all doing an enormous work already keeping up and going as it is!

  157. a civilian-mass audience

    “Freedom lies in being bold.”
     Robert Frost (American poet, 1874-1963)

  158. “It’s all about you, using your own mind, without any method or schema, to restore order from chaos. And once you have, you can sit back and say, ‘Hey, the rest of my life may be a disaster, but at least I have a solution.'”
    MARCEL DANESI, a professor of anthropology at the University of Toronto and the author of “The Puzzle Instinct: The Meaning of Puzzles in Human Life.”

  159. a civilian-mass audience

    Thank you THOMAS.
    MIKER…is this an new website?
    PANOS…When I am using my mind…I only restore chaos!:)

    As EVA wrote..MR.HARVEY,you’re already doing enormous work…Thank you for everything,
    The ANTON,MIKEC,KERRY,ANNA,MICHELLE,DIEGO…and the incredibles…!

    BURNIANS…we take nothing for granted…and we keep rolling.
    …yes,we CAN!!!

  160. Civi, I followed you link to John Vink’s site then clicked on “View latest” and when to the two sides of a river essay. Sad end there to the water festival.

  161. a civilian-mass audience

    MIKER…I was talking about your website…I followed your name…then clicked on…
    Your visions…:)

  162. DAH – makes perfect sense, all around. thanks for the clarifying. re: “you would suddenly see 300 essays ready to view” Whoa. thumbs up to that possibility!

  163. Thomas, thanks, I do have an RSS reader, from which I follow some blogs/sites.. Burn being an exception, I prefer to follow it online..

  164. Good morning all. The discussion about order of essays: The Hornet’s Nest is a fun essay with only 3 comments so far. If I were the author of this essay I would be disappointed that so little activity had occurred with it. DAH’s comment that they are posted not so they WILL be discussed but CAN be discussed…confused by that statement.

    Hornet’s Nest to me would be in Work in Progress as this was done over a very short period of time (a week I think) and though a good start does not stand as a completed work in my mind and belonging under PE.

    Not a complaint just thinking and wondering. Looking forward to the new design to see what fall out. Regarding donations, I don’t see a place where you can send a check. Am I missing something?

  165. Civi, sorry, I’m with you now: yes, fairly new – just a web journal using Apple Aperture and posted via MobileMe.
    You don’t miss much! The Blackpool stuff is mainly old stuff but I’m working on a new (b&w project. What’s not to love!


  166. Lee,

    Nowhere to send a check, but if you click on “Support Us at Burn” (bottom choice in the top box on the right side of the page), you have options of a single donation of your choosing via Paypal or a $10 donation per month via credit card….

    Wondering if any of my singles surpass “camera club” type…hmm – might need some feedback on that. Will pick a couple and see…

    good light, all.


    Just did the BURN monthly subscription…unfortunately, it only allows me to do $10/month…it’s automated…i’d love to make it $25/month ($300/yr)….if you guys can fix the system, i’d love to change it…otherwise, i’ll add a cash donation on top in spring :))

    let me know if you can change, so I can increase my monthly donation…


  168. You know what amazes me about the picture above? That no one here has pointed out that this kid has blown a perfect ball of bubble gum. Now if he can blow a perfect dodecahedron his good fortume would be assured for life.

  169. David,

    Glad to see you were off to Bill Allard’s opening the other night. I just got his new book and it’s really fantastic. It makes me bemoan the loss of Kodachrome though.

    I managed to misplace Marie Arago’s card I got in Oax. Any chance you can let me know how to get in touch with her or have her contact me? I want to follow-up with her on our discussion about having a show of the Haiti project work here in Austin. If she wants to do it I’d like to help her find a venue and advertise it. Hopefully you can help put us back in touch.

    I also sent you an e-mail to a dah.com address and not sure if it ever got through. Nothing important in there but just didn’t want to knowingly send something into oblivion.

    Hope you’re well.

    Best, J

  170. It is a balloon I think. I have seen this photo before and the thing that strikes me is all the faces are obscured. Hard to type the word obscured when you have had two margaritas!

  171. Lee..

    “DAH’s comment that they are posted not so they WILL be discussed but CAN be discussed…confused by that statement.”

    I read it like this (can be wrong though): the primary goal of publishing the essays is not that of them being discussed, but viewed, discusson can occour due to the possibility of adding comments, but comes in only 2nd, or even 3rd etc. ..if discussion happens, fine, if not, fine as well..

    Mike R, haven’t looked at all of it, but quite like the feel and mood of the last set..

  172. Thirty years ago tonight I was lying in bed listening to the radio, about to turn it off, ready for my slumber. The DJ interrupted to say John Lennon had been shot. Shortly after he came on to say he died. The maudlin little hack then of course played Imagine. I, being a rational, unemotional tough guy cried like a baby. Weird that. Never before and never again did I cry over the death of a celebrity. The Beatles were more than just celebrities to me in my early years. I remember all their photographs from all their albums, posters. (probably part of why I became a photographer?) I remember going back over them studying them. I loved the poster and headshots that came with the White Album. The poster especially with it’s collage of the beautiful and the weird. Paul is naked in one of those photos. John of course posed with Yoko on Two Virgins in his birthday suit. I don’t think George or Ringo shed their clothes for photogs over the years. That’s a random thought, I know. Anyway… anniversaries are strange. 30 years. Long time.

  173. Hey David, feel like expanding a bit on that tweet about precise selection? Sounds insightful, each sentence is practically a koan, but I’m not sure what you mean.

    Also, did you see the email I sent yesterday early a.m.?

  174. Michael..
    For me too..(back then in grecolandia)…
    For some reason I think it was Sunday night..
    Father watching the news.. Sunday night around 8pm.. Monday was coming up,
    School day , I was depressed anyway… Winter, raining,
    John shot dead.. Tears and devastation.. I had to hide in the room and cry..
    I was shocked not only because of the bad news but also because of how heavily I took it..
    I knew I was obsessed but I didn’t know the magnitude of my obsession..
    And I hated the Stones back then..
    Strawberry Fields was always the ultimate song for me..
    Listening to that song I could get high without getting high.. In fact I didn’t know what drugs are
    to be honest… At that point the only thing I knew about drugs is that if you
    go to a “discoteque” then some evil teenagers will drop some “pill” on my orange juice and
    then I will be addicted for life, living homeless in dirty alleys searching the garbage for food!
    (see Dylan’s ” Tombstone Blues”)…
    Yes , The Beatles were responsible for my future addictions..
    and Dylan was the prophet..

    “…I was born the day they shot JFK..
    … I was born the day they shot John Lennon dead..”
    Flaming Lips

  175. a civilian-mass audience

    I received a message from Spacecowboy…
    John Lennon is “up” there…playing cards with Andrew…Masaaki is there too…
    Ahh…and Soundarya,Sylvia,Royce and Flora…family and friends…are doing fine…

    We “down” here …have to keep rolling…


  176. David,

    I know that you don’t talk workflow very often, at least not on the back end. Never-the-less I have a question that been on mind for far too long and would very much like to know where you stand.

    Do you discard images as you finish individual assignments, or do you archive everything? Or perhaps let it all settle a bit and then go back and delete?

    I know that some images will take on a greater significance later in life for any number of reasons, or perhaps become part of a future collection of work, or project completely unrelated to the assignment at hand.

    I have kept every digital capture on file since the day I was handed a Nikon in Jackson. With film it was easy (& tangible ) to archive every film strip-simply b/c there was less. Now I’m seeking tighten my belt and downsize the archive-keeping only the best, and those that might pass for second best. This of course will prevent me from being able to go back and look at “frame by frame” filmstrips/workflow in years to come. Your thoughts?


  177. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…thank you…I didn’t see you coming…:))))))))

    VIVA…where is the wine…?

  178. MW…

    read carefully your email…we definitely need to meet to figure out best way for you to proceed….complex compound issues that need to be distilled down into comprehensible photographs…what i meant on the tweet was exactly what you are up against…selection….exactly what to show or what not to show…what will work best in pictures…seems like well yes of course..but most photographers get confused with their sense of visual literacy or lack thereof…not everything that is “important” a picture makes, and a powerful singular image could come from a lesser “fact”… perhaps i am either over simplifying or making too complicated!! … i do not see how we can meet before January…i am slammed through holidays and i am sure you are as well…not remembering if you are on skype or not, but maybe we can work in a quick call….

    cheers, david

  179. Visura? What the hell is Visura?
    I just find out about it..and too late (as usual)..
    Human nature… We suppose to share everything here like a good family but..
    but… everyone for themselves…
    Got my lesson… Promoting heavily your work is as important as the work itself..
    Viva family…:(

  180. PANOS :))

    VISURA is the magazine that published my essay ‘oxen of the sun’…:))…they are a great magazine and a great group (husband/wife + help)….young photographers, designers…after BURN, my favorite online magazine…and Adriana and Graham are great folk…they treated me really well and I really loved working with them when they asked me to submit work for the magazine…


    shit, i didn’t know about that grant either…..although, between my friend’s wife’s death, dima’s assault/hospitalization/my own work, I haven’t been paying attention at all to what grants are out there…and shit, if i had known about the Visura grant, i would have shared it ….(i try to with stuff i know)….maybe it was posted at Lightstalkers, who knows….

    listen: truth be told: it IS ALL about promotion….but…you know, who cares….i’m happy for all the people…and i know many of them…including one of my friends there who said he NEVER/WOULD NEVER apply for an award/grant ;))….

    all i can say is same with EPF: we should CELEBRATE the winners and continue to make our stuff…

    the photoworld is selfish and competitive and snarky and boring and pretentious and dog-eat-dog and all that stuff…so, it is better NOT to get depressed…but just celebrate and congratulate and do what you need to do…

    shit my own wife’s new Versts stuff is as strong as anything i’ve seen in the photoworld in the last 6 months, by anyone, and she too never enters these things…

    but please know that VISURA is great and god bless them for making this award….like David’s greatness with EPF, Adriana and Graham put this together on their own…and they LOVE Burn too! :)))

    as for many of the ‘family’ members there…well, yea, i found it also a bit depressing….but, i’m used that that

    promoting may be important to get noticed, to get awards, but it doesn’t mean work…it is always the work that is most imporant…

    and lots of good work there too…

    don’t worry, i didnt know about the grant either, and i am one of their published photographers…then again, i haven’t been able to keep up with my emails since august

    we MUST do a REd-Converse Grant…dont tell anyone ;)))

    but just don’t get depressed by competition…it’s too narrow minded….and not worth the worry/frustration…

    i learned my lesson 2 years ago when i got all upset…now just live :))..

    apply next year…tell them, I recommended you :))


  181. PANOS..BOB

    i did not know about the Visura grant either…or, i would have posted something here as i always do for grants etc that i think are not so obvious..did anybody here even apply for that BD grant we posted about 10 days ago? that was 30k or so worth of support…the good thing about grants is that right now there just is not much funding any other way except for the Kickstarter and imitators……the trouble with grants is that one receives support and a whole bunch of others do not…so, there will always be a bit of controversy surrounding grant winners etc…just human nature i suppose…the Kickstarter concept does seem to work because the “people” vote..with dollars…

  182. Got my lesson… Promoting heavily your work is as important as the work itself..

    Many argue it’s more important. Guess it depends on what you’re after. Many people see art as a means to other ends such as fame, fortune and/or sex. Others see the work as an end in itself and if any other benefit comes from it, so much the better. Then there’s Kurt Cobain and his type who feel, feel deeply, that commercial success and popular adulation means horrific failure as an artist. I am what I am, but as for everyone else, whatever gets you through the night, it’s all right. All right.

  183. DAVID :)

    as I told Panos (here and privately) NOT to worry…shit, i was published by VISURA and I didn’t even know and that’s ok, because I am sure if i look back at my Visura folder inbox there is an email there, but I haven’t had time to read 90% of my emails (and I owe both Adriana and Graham emails from september)….the KEY is NOT TO GET ANGRY….there are lot’s of other opportunities and the most important thing is to celebrate the winners (all the finalists do great stuff, and my friend Oli Pin-Fat just had a brilliant exhibition in BKK)…and to keep looking and to make work…competitive and jealousy never works…just be positive and work hard :))….and I will definitely tell others when I know of grants coming up….just as I did with the Rome exhibition for Marc Prust…i always try to share….the key is to look:

    LOOKING at Lighstalkers is also important and facebook….for me, the problem is that i have had no time in the last 6 months to dedicate too much except my own writing and photobooks/essays and to family….

    Kickstarter is good for that…

    speaking of Kickstarter!…

    Here is one I contributed to the day it was announced….Laura’s:


    I was the second contributor after Gina Martins :)))…..

    BUT DON’T BE ANGRY with winners…or even those people who don’t share….the best revenge is to make good work and be supportive and share anyway ;)))

    MW: that is IT….for me, it is the work, not the goal, not the glory, not the awards….we each live our own path….better to accept one’s own and others own….

    here’s a quote, then i have to run..

    “So that as Plato had an imagination, that all knowledge was but remembrance; so Solomon giveth his sentence, that all novelty is but oblivion.”-francis bacon (the philosopher)

  184. Andrew
    If you are among those of us who have submitted un-published singles, then I guess we fit into the “camera club” category, at least in the eyes of DAH or who-ever screens the images.

    This is not necessarily a bad thing. “Camera Club” images are sometimes supremely boring, predictable, cliche, but, can, sometimes, perhaps, if one lets go of expectations and pre-conceptions, be delightful and beautiful. In any case, mainstream, “camera club”, images are often overlooked and not appreciated for what they truly represent.

    It is always a dangerous thing to subject one’s self to the judgment of others. Andrew, we need to have faith in my own vision, and let go of our need for approval and validation.

    I was reminded of this recently, reading the latest issue of “The Sun” magazine (which you should all subscribe too incidentally” http://www.thesunmagazine.org/ The “Dog-Eared Page”, was an excerped from “Letters to a young poet” by Rainer Maria Rilke, circa 1903, in response to a would-be poet who sought his advice.

    Here is an excerpt from the exerpt:

    “You ask whether your verses are good. You ask me. You have asked others before. You sent them to magazines. You compared them with other poems, and you are disturbed when certain editors reject your efforts. Now (since you have allowed me to advise you) I beg you to give up all that. You are looking outward, and that above all you should not do now. Nobody can council or help you, nobody. There is only one single way. Go into yourself. Search for the reason that bids you to write; ”

    David A. Thankyou for your encouragement and inspiration to dig deeper and try harder. I’m going to send a couple of new singles soon.

  185. MW..

    i think the Cobain concept, as you describe it, that artists feel that commercial success and popular adulation means horrific failure is rather strange considering the great lengths many of these artists go through, most including Cobain and Morrison, to in fact achieve popular commercial success and then after they get it decide it is just too too much and they take themselves out either on purpose or by drug induced accident …the fact that these two men slid into the abyss does not make them somehow more of an artist nor suggest in any way that commercial success did this to them..to my mind the suicides and the over achievements are unrelated…i am very much a Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain fan in terms of the work they did albeit for a very short time…just wish they both had the fortitude and courage to stick around and maybe just give it one more shot…but, yes, nobody knows another man’s pain….

  186. GORDON…

    yes, everyone should subscribe to The Sun..love it…by the way, were it not for a camera club in Warren , Ohio that took me in as their youngest member by at least 20 years, i would not have learned as much as i did about the craft at a young age…the folks who belong to camera clubs are having a terrific time with their hobby…so, i do celebrate this enthusiasm for a worthwhile pastime…a group essay by a camera club or club contest might actually make an interesting collection…so, if you know of one, let me know…….

  187. Bob…
    I agree with all that and thanks for the email..
    You and DAH of course are actually the only folks that share info..
    Most others are like”..hey look at me..I got this and that award”
    All I have to say is that: “when I run alone I usually finish first”…
    and get the trophy..
    Photogs fail to understand that there actually is such thing as fair game,
    although they hate competition they love contests..

  188. I’ve always maintained that there are a hell of a lot of similarities between music and photography. There are the ones that crave fame and publicity by appealing to the mass market; and those that try to say something unique and have enough confidence in their own work to know they will attract “their” own audience.

  189. Panos I won a contest at 13 for the first prize was meeting some Spanish horse riding dudes and there was this really nice looking young girl in the troupe. She lived in Spain I lived in Australia…………. a lousy contest to win never entered another. Scarred for life? ……… no just not interested

  190. Panos, my friend; please do not be so pessimistic. I know that I posted information about the BD grant (at least) 2 weeks before DAH’s post regarding the same. I have also seen others posting information regarding grants and funding opportunities.

    Please do not mistake the limitations of the current “Comments” on Burn with the selfishness of others to share information. We are currently a bit limited on our platform – info easily missed. Hopefully, the next incarnation will allow for a section of available grants, to be shared with the community…

    All the best, Justin

  191. Panos, I saw that the BD grant deadline has been extended to Dec. 22. Also, please see link on this page for “Photographers Needed”: http://www.bd.com/responsibility/awareness_programs/

    Think about the health needs of those in Venice; the RV residents, living on the margins of “society”…

    I worked for a company that was acquired by the BD Biosciences division. I was very impressed by the progressive views within BD. It may be worth a look…

  192. Ross

    Yes, no question.

    Ansel Adams, a classical musician as well as a photographer, had lots to say about the connection. We even use the same language, and talk of colour, texture, rythm, tempo, etc etc.

  193. a civilian-mass audience

    Yes, I can see more BURNIANS…ANDY,OUR PATRICIA,ARA……..
    I am still going through the names…not focused
    I am still waiting for the wine
    …the Journey, the Journey is my final

    Formula one = BURN …:)))

  194. ‘WE ARE only mouth. Who sings the distant heart
    that dwells whole at the core of all things?
    Its great pulse is parceled out among us
    into tiny beatings.
    So again and again we tear ourselves loose
    and are only mouth. But all at once
    the great heartbeat secretly breaks in on us
    so that we scream –,
    and then are being, tranformation, visage.

    RILKE, 1923

    (For Gordon and Andrew B and the rest of us members of the camera club and the wannabes –
    we shall only write about or photograph that which makes our or others’ hearts beat.)

  195. a civilian-mass audience


    Aih…MyGRACIE…is well and kicking…!!!
    where is the ice-cream?
    And …KATIE FONSECA are u out there…??? I am not kidding…

  196. Panos, I could be wrong, but I do think I posted teh info about the Visura thing.. as I do with lots of other stuff.. this is probably a case when a more structured forum type of thing would come in handy, as info get buried easily.
    Actually it would be easy to do even here with this format: a posting called exhibitions/grants/whatever where only information is posted, no other comments, and perhaps deleting the info when it is no longer of interest..

    I knew about the grant because of their twitter feed I got, twitter is quite nice for that..

  197. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…you did post it…and you keep posting…
    And many other BURNIANS…
    Hmmm…It’s the smell of licorice… can be quite overwhelming and destructive…:)))


  198. PANOS :))

    “although they hate competition they love contests..” ;)))

    god damn, aint that the truth….weird to me too….i once got upset up all these things (ask david over a drink ;))), and i realized after a couple weeks that spending negative energy wasn’t helpful and wasn’t bob black….so, now i just think, whatever…help as many people as i can, share as much as i know….shit, i live with another great photographer, so we have to share and can’t compete…or we’d be divorced ;)))))….

    EVA :))

    yes, gotta say YOU ARE the fountain here of info :)))..and yep, that is one good reason for separate side bar conversations :))…

    ok, guys, group hug ;))..

    gotta fly

    hugs all


  199. CIVI

    PLEASE come to Toronto…i’ll feed you more than licorice…..you’ll get a home cooked meal and wine/whisky…and if you’re lucky some dima time or even marina time :))))

    i’m not a jealous guy :))

  200. a civilian-mass audience

    Ahhhh…BOBBY…you are a true BURNIAN…

    I know …your home is always open…( people talk):)
    But I cannot be trusted…
    I am a civilian after all…

    Everything in moderation…heeehe…By the way i am a pamphagos…!!!

  201. JEREMY…

    funny this question now, because it is the number one priority i am thinking about right now..this is the question that all of us ask, and nobody has the answer…so far i have every picture i ever took in either film or digital…and i would not refer to it exactly as “work flow” , but more as a couple of storage spaces with a lot of cardboard boxes stacked on top of each other…

    a certain percentage is of course organized by project and by assignment and is carefully placed in my official Magnum archive, but much of it is not..right now Mike Courvoisier has come down from new york to help me deal with moving my digital archive over to a new set of hard drives and help set up my 99% finished darkroom and just get a handle on my overall archive…this is a full time job…

    i could stop doing absolutely everything else and concentrate on my archive and my time would be well spent and i would never be finished reaping what has already been sown….

    of course, like everyone else, i want to go out and do new work…however, after looking at all of this , i can see that what most appeals to me at this point is medium format film and contact sheets…i mean by far by far by far…easy to see and comprehend..yes, large physical space in one way, but with med format i just do not overshoot..much more deliberate…of course this needs to be scanned and archived digitally as well, but somehow it seems a more pleasant task…

    starting with hard copy and going to digital for me is easier than starting with a digital capture and going to hard copy…and any way you look at it, hard copy is all that matters…master prints….or, at least good work prints…all else is ethereal outside of simply selling stock photography or for knowing what is where…for the truly important work, hard copy is just the only thing that could possibly matter….

    now, what do i do with all of the outtakes? i want to throw them away….or at least get these scribbles far away from the final novel so to speak…i always imagine someone finding a box of all the throwaways and THE box of selects is misplaced and i end up only being known for the throwaways…laughing …

    i hope you will organize a better “system” than have i…but i guess if you are the kind of person who loves the wind in your face and sitting by the fire with Aussie ringers and immersed in the mass body sweat of carnival and feeling the fear of being the “wrong” neighborhood late at night but figuring you will get out somehow and get a picture to boot, is a different kind of person than one who is naturally “organized”….ahhh, we just all must do our best, just try our best…and hope for the best as well….

    i will be in Durango for Christmas…you around??

    cheers, david


    i am just way behind on my emails…i do have yours…and i will send Marie contact info to you by email….again, it was a bit unreal to run into you in Oaxaca….those kinds of moments are always the very best….again, i would love to see what you shot ….


    yes, we could have an event bulletin board easily with the format we have…to list gallery openings, grants, shows, etc etc….this is a good idea and we even had it in the very early editions of Burn…the only problem is, like all good ideas of which we have many, this idea takes someone pretty dedicated to doing it….

    to keep an event/grant board current, and it is only good IF kept up to date and international, requires honestly a full time job on the part of someone…we just do not have that someone…

    in theory, readers here could post to it, therefore eliminating this job, but i do not know how we could do that technically…before publishing Burn, i was like most people…just assuming that a good idea was enough..i never ever actually thought much about the actual implementation and the woman/man power needed to make it happen…

    cheers, david

  203. GORDON,

    Ah, I have no idea whethere I fit into the camera club or not, as I have not even ventured to submit a single…let alone an essay. That said, I had privilege of sitting with DAH and going through some of my images one on one, and there were some of interest….

    Thank you for the quotes and thought – very, very wise and true words…”It is always a dangerous thing to subject one’s self to the judgment of others. Andrew, we need to have faith in my own vision, and let go of our need for approval and validation.”

    This is perhaps one of the hardest things for me, as I sometimes thing I see something in an image and no one else does. But then, is that wrong, or bad? I think not.

    I also very much like the Rilke quote. Thank you for that, adding it to the ones I have in the front of my note-book, where they get seen regularly.

    I have a single image that I think captures teh feeling and idea I’ve had for some time as an essay. If you can spare a few moments to look at it and perhaps a quick chat about my idea, I’d appreciate it. I think I’ve found the personal project with which to push myself.

    ALL; Awoke at 4:00 am today, wrote and edited a bit, now full of good coffee and running strong. It’s all of 9 degrees F here…glad to have a fire and a large dog to keep my feet warm!

    Wishing everyone good light, and may this season bring you feelings of fun and joy, not frustration.


    “to thine own self be true” is of course my lifetime philosophy…right along with the aforementioned “build it and they will come”….

    these are terrific lessons to live by and help to take the sting out of any kind of rejection, but we all really know are a bit naive as well in terms of moving forward as a significant photographer….

    there is no way in hell that you can be the only judge of your own work…who has ever in the history of art and letters escaped judgment day? THE CURATOR looms always…you can never be all alone….you CAN make sure you do not change the way you think and work because of the “curator”, but through those gates you must indeed pass…how could it ever be otherwise? you home alone fondling your pictures? a bit creepy huh?

    remember however, that it is YOU who chooses who it is that becomes THE CURATOR…this is always your choice…have you chosen as your curator the editor of an in flight magazine or is your curator at MOMA….an exaggeration, but you get my point i am sure…it should be obvious that not all critique is created equal any more than the art itself…. all of photography is only about one thing…CHOOSING …choosing the subject, the light, the moment, the edit, the display format, and yes the curator….. choose wisely…..

    and for heavens sake just be prepared to be “rejected” most of the time…get over it…get on with it…art is much much tougher than football or boxing……but who doesn’t know that? :)

    Andrew…link your single on skype…right now if you are on…

    cheers, david

  205. Gracie

    Glad to see you round and about again – thank you for the inspiring words and thoughts….send me an email and we can share some of our camera club musings…..


  206. David..

    Unless you find sombody running the grant/award/exhibit board (I gladly offer my time if you (Burnteam) think that’s an option), having readers post the info on a dedicated page (like a dialogue post) would be the next best thing I think. With some indications on what to post, as in name of the event, opening/closing dates, link to the website etc. ..

    I don’t want to increase your workload!

  207. EVA…

    we at Burn are having our annual meetings and what we will do and not do for 2011…in other words, creating exactly what type of restaurant we want to be….one thing we ALL agree on is a total elimination of the concept of trying to be too many things to too many people…yes, we have hundreds of good ideas…as i have said many times, ideas are not a commodity…people are…the people to implement those ideas…so we have to put our resources where we think they will be best used, work the best for our readers, and make our lives with Burn pleasant rather than a pain…none of us want pain….

    we can all see that we could publish books, create international exhibitions, start a series of Burn seminars/workshops etc etc…and we have done or tried all of those things..it just comes down to priorities…i think the restaurant we want to have here is a restaurant with a very limited menu, but the food is just terrific….our efforts on Burn are going to go into content….to do this we are building out a V2 tech site that will allow us to do more and rather really to emphasize what we already do in the best way possible…even this month we are going to have some breakthrough essays presented…new ways of seeing…..Burn IS the event!!

    however, if you want to really take some of this on, then maybe that can work…but, you had better really really think about that one…keeping up on an international level with all that is happening sounds formidable….and remember , Burn is always ON…there is no stopping once you start…

    anyway, let’s meet on skype soonest..finish up Palio editing and talk about this Burn work…

    make sense?

    cheers, hugs, david

  208. David..

    Makes perfect sense! You all decide what you think is best, for you (all) first and for Burn second, and if you think this is something among those things, my offer stands.. you know that I follow through once I give my word.. :)

  209. EVA…

    yes, you 100% are true to your word…i would never doubt that at all…just want to make sure you know the level of involvement…again, many thanks and i hope to talk to you soonest by skype…

    cheers, david

  210. a civilian-mass audience

    Ref : EVA
    Yes, 100% original…(she has been tested)!

    Ref: BURN
    BURN = kibbutz,family,hotel…restaurant(it has not been tested)

    BURN is the place to be !!!

    P.S yes, I have chickens…Bouboulina’s babies,a X-mas turkey to go…etcetera…:))))))

  211. David, went away from the PC after I posted those – just now saw your post.

    Yes, the exactly perfect compliment to the “to thine own self” idea….picking your curator….I get it.

    Just posted the link to the image – it is on my beta web site, I think there are quite a few images in galleries there that will be removed, but it is an experiment for myself….the image is the first one in that gallery.

    ALL: normally I would jump right in and post a link now to my beta web site, but given the talent and wide readership of this place, I will wait and edit a bit first….but I will post.

    good light all. It’s now a balmy 12 degrees F here. BRRrrrrrrrr.

  212. a civilian-mass audience

    You curator must be strong, charismatic…but invisible…
    Cause your vision is the one that has to Shine…

    Did I hear another…tick-tock…?:)

  213. David,

    Yes we will be in town…throughout most of the holiday. It would be great to catch up.

    Thanks for the insight. I have never put the money into archiving prints themselves, but the notion is absolutely appealing – in our digital age there is great comfort in being able to see & touch an image!

    The editing skills that I have gained in recent years working as photographer and photo editor for the Southern Ute newspaper are an absolute must for this type of project, and I honestly don’t think I could have done it as effectively if i had edited this work when it was originally shot. I have a better eye, and (hopefully) a better understanding of visual narrative.

    …and yes David! Wind in the Face is why I picked up a camera in the first place! See you soon.

    Safe Travels – Jeremy

  214. David
    There is no doubt in my mind that choosing ones curator/mentor is critical, and not all are created equal. It depends what our ambitions are. It depends what sort of significant photographer one is aiming to be, and who the intended consumers of our efforts are. Editorial? Commercial? Fine art?

    Is it our intention to make a living? If so, the who are the consumers, what are the rules of the game? Stock advice at motivational seminars is to seek advice from people who are where you would like to be. You clearly fit that role for those who seek to have the kind of career you have enjoyed.

    Ultimately, if we do this for a living, validation depends on the consumer…the person who is willing to trade that big stack of cash for our flat little pictures. In my case, ordinary people, not “into” photography, who happily hand over a weeks wages for a few prints and tell my how much they love what I’ve done for them. I love what I do.

    I’ve always had a clear distinction between my personal and proffesional work. As I’ve mentioned before, my personal work has always been just that, me, sitting home fondling my prints. (Not nearly as creepy as lurking around the seedy or poverty stricken in an effort to advance a career.) It is only since Burn that I’ve felt compelled to share, and, un-avoidably, to be curious about the feedback.

    Occasionally, I perform music with a group for money. Often I get together with folks just to play for fun. But mostly, I just like to stand alone in a quiet place, and play for myself (and fondle my flute). It feeds my soul.

  215. andrew b, aside from what Civi rightly said (in my opinion at least), pick someone you trust, and someone that trusts you too, that lets you grow and go.. learnt that the (very) hard and painful way.. since then I’m in defence mode, which is/can be counterproductive..

  216. GORDON…

    you have hit the proverbial nail on the head…exactly….as you say, one must choose the type of curator one needs for what they want to do or become….and of course one might need multiple curators for various aspects of their work…you are quite right, i am only good for photographers who are pursuing either major magazine assignments, book publishing, agency work and the like…i would be of no service to someone who wanted to do what you do professionally for example or a wedding photographer or most commercial work in general…of zero use to natural history or underwater photographers as well …

    however, unlike you and most commercial photographers, i have little or no distinction between my personal and professional work and i do try to get photographers i mentor to realize they CAN sell their style so to speak…..i sell my personal work either through commissions where they know what i do including advertising…or from stock or print sales geared to people who happen to like what i do anyway…

    i will have you know Gordon that i learned basic lighting from a studio portrait photographer i worked for every day after school during my last year of high school…i loved that job…and i loved setting up the lights all wrong after the doors were closed for the day and i would use my employer as my model and did experimental portraiture much to his amusement and often dismay…but i digress and this is no way makes me a good mentor or curator for a portrait studio photographer UNLESS they want to do a book of their best..another story…..in any case, your point is well taken and i hope obvious to one and all….

    cheers, david

  217. Good discussion this morning. Headed for the Big Island for a few days so won’t be able to check in to see how the conversation goes until Monday. Hope to get some photos of the volcano; the vog from the volcano on the Big Island has traveled on a south wind to Maui and has socked us in. Hopefully, that means no vog where I am going so I can shoot. South wind never bodes well for us. It leaves you feeling sticky and out of sorts.

  218. This discussion is one of the situations where I feel that Burn could use a little tweaking. Working a full-time job (45-55 hrs a week), continuing shooting Fight Night, starting to get some assignments, and starting a new relationship :-) makes keeping up with burn happenings a virtual impossibility.

    So when I do get some time to stop by and look around at more than the latest essay, I see a discussion with more than 330 responses. There’s no way I can consider looking through all that for nuggets of information or interesting comments on which I want to respond. Often times, there are four or five separate discussions happening at once, so I find myself wanting to scroll backwards in the history to find where each discussion started.

    Perhaps a hybrid system for discussion topics could be used where there is a general entry (like Letter to Friends), then a forum system used to organize responses and additional conversations. Something like that could be very useful, making it possible to browse topic headers and decide what I want to read further. We seem to do well to keep the responses related (even if it’s loosely related) to the photo or essay being presented. If that continues, discussions regarding essays could remain as is.

    I did see mention of possibly seeking some additional funding from Burn readers: “all we need is 99 cents a month from everybody….less than one third the price of a cup of Starbucks latte…and if they show up at my house, they get all the beer they can drink…now, is that an investment or what?? oh yeah, plus Burn!!!”

    There would need to be some additional bang for the buck. Yes, Burn is a great source for imagery and information, networking and some great discussions, but one of the toughest things to do is to get people to pay for what they are used to getting for free (ask Napster). There us going to have to be some sort of creative fundraising, whether it is a store to sells prints of Burn contributors, a bi-monthly magazine, a secret decoder ring with every subscription to Burn online…something. If the general Burn site turned into a pay site, it will be a challenge to keep it afloat.

    Just my 2¢


    interesting analysis…we will never turn into a pay site nor has this been suggested…my 99 cents comment pretty obviously a joke… however, our 15k grant and all the money we have raised to publish Burn 01 and pay photographers who are published here might be considered by some to be pretty good bang for the buck and with contributions from this audience.. we are funded by those readers here who obviously feel different than do you…..from our side, were we to look at it as a straight mercenary call as you seem to do, why would we keep working for you for free?? actually less than free…we lose money to do this….to what end my friend ? you want us to tweak and improve so that you can continue to receive a free outlet? why do you think we are here at all Brian?? yes, we want to be altruistic…the whole point of Burn from the beginning…but, being taken for granted as your comment suggests will shut this free operation down so fast it will make your head spin…thanks for the insight…

  220. DAH:

    I am curious what goes through your mind when you look at any given photograph. is there any type of “structured” thought process (e.g. a “check list”, certain criteria etc)? how do you evaluate a photograph?

  221. David,

    Perhaps this thread is a better example of how Burn could be better organized than I thought.

    I did not intent to suggest that Burn does not provide a substantial bang for the buck if it did go to paid content (Quite the opposite. I would pay to be a Burn member if the day comes when that is required), just that it is difficult to make something that was once free, and then start charging for it. I continued on by trying to suggest some alternatives to becoming a pay site that might work out better. All that was based on a snippet of a conversation that I got while glancing through and trying to play catch up.

    Seems I offended you, and that was absolutely not my intent. The Burn community has been exceedingly good to me. I simply trying to give suggestions on what I understood the conversation to be.

  222. I’ll be making my first donation to Burn shortly after Christmas. I’d certainly be happy to pay a subscription of some sort. Many of us would, I’m quite sure.

    I just uploaded a Video Book Trailer for Mixed Messages, by the way. You gotta do what you gotta do, right? Just trying to find an audience.

    Cheers and Happy Holidays all and sundry.

    Paul Treacy

  223. a note about ‘paying’ for BURN…

    well, i am…and it’s some of the best (and cheapest) money i can give…only $20/month to subscribe to BURN…and it’s feeder money…it helps sustain not only BURN, David, Anton and company but it helps PHOTOGRAPHERS…i say that not only as someone who has been published by Burn and an EPF finalist but as a supporter of photography/photogrpahers….we all need to support one another, including financially…

    Marina and I struggle every week to make ends meet as a family rasing a child on artists/teachers income in expensive n.american city but we consider ourselves wealthy to be a part of the community of photographers/friends/community and we must give back…$20/month is peanuts….and might seem small, but it will add up…i’m uping the ante to $30/month when i return from russia…

    imagine if just each of us did $10…not because we were forced, but because we help/want to support…i may never be published again at burn, but i will always support it because i believe in photogrpahy…

    marina and i have been rejected much much much more times (for grants/awards/publication/exhibitions) than we’ve been published/awarded/exhibited…it’s the nature of the beast…we get use to it and just focus on sustaining the work and our family…

    part of that sustenance comes from helping…in small and large ways…..

    that’s it….

    no one should ever feel forced to do anything…but god damn, when you help, your helping to build community larger than yourself….

    we’re nothing without one another…


  224. “much much much more times ”

    good grief….where is my grammar, mind fatigure from 2 months of night teaching…

    ….”many many many more times”….

    i broke the read-first aloud Akaky rule;’))


  225. a civilian-mass audience

    BOBBY…It happens to the best of us…:)
    Of course AKAKY,SIDNEY,IRL BOB and the other academicians can come after you…
    but you are always running and running…
    We are humans after all…!

    “I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.”
     Helen Keller (American Author and Educator who was blind and deaf. 1880-1968)

    Oime…I wish my paycheck was not from Grecoland…
    No excuse though…
    When there is a Vision
    there is a way
    BURN is the place
    to give my support
    It’s about me…
    It’s for a good cause…
    I will endorse…:)))


  226. a civilian-mass audience

    P.S…BOBBY…I definitely need some ESL lessons…
    Maybe through Skype Running sessions…!:)))

  227. a civilian-mass audience

    That’s what I am talking about…!!!
    That’s the BURNING spirit…the real people…the BURNing souls…

    Thank you mate

    May wine,ouzo,health,wealth,chickens…be with you and your family.


  228. Hi David,

    this is the first of my requests for “assignment”

    The Business Traveller is about travelling in the context of international business within a world-wide corporation. The traveller is a person who travels alone and with colleagues. The journeys main cause is the business meetings, which are not shown in the essay.
    The essay is mainly about the travelling, the solitude, the late-minute preparations, so all except the business itself, because this is invariant to the business travellers.

    I am not sure if the pictures I took so far qualifies for an assignment, I selected the pictures from a period of about 4 years of travelling mainly to Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Macedonia. As an essay the pictures are probably not in the right sequence, and there are lots of pictures missing. And here comes, where I am stuck at the moment. Which kinds of pictures are missing? Is it a story worth to tell, and do I have the ability telling it? (Questions we had already in the dialogue)

    You find the pictures I have selected so far here:

    Thank you for your offer to take some time to view and feedback.

  229. Hi David, all… I wanted to respond to your comment about Kurt Cobain yesterday in the context of commercial success and self-promotion, but unfortunately I was in bed all day sick as a dog. Meanwhile, I missed a torrent of comments and as so many others have noted, it’s difficult to go back and catch up on them all. Apropos of that and the ongoing discussion of how to make Burn better, I’m thinking it would be nice if you all would acquire some of that telepathy technology so that you would know when a regular reader is absent and could provide a condensed version of what he or she missed, perhaps even directly to the visual cortex of the brain. Also, I’ve noticed more talk about a payment model. I’m thinking maybe you should try a really radical, incredibly innovative new model. Think how great it would be if Burn were to pay its readers! You could do it on some combination of a pay for click, pay per photograph viewed, pay per comment read, premium pay for each comment made, even pay per word in a comment, though there would have to be an upper limit or Bob would be driving around in a Rolls. How to pay for that? My first thought was check kiting, but that just shows how old I’ve become. But creative fundraisers are doing things with credit cards these days. Or meth labs are growing in popularity as a fund raising tool.

    Speaking of meth labs, Andrew b., I watched Winter’s Bone yesterday. Although it’s not a bad movie, it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with the meth netherworld as I’ve seen it. Basically it’s just another Hollywood type movie making an epic myth of an outlaw underworld. Tough guys living by their own rules, you know. Real life is more often just sad and pathetic. BTW, I pass through Kentucky every now and then, either on I-64 across the state or whatever highway that is between Cincinnati and Louisville. If you’re along one of those routes maybe we can meet for a cup of coffee some time.

    Regarding Kurt Cobain and Panos’s contention that self-promotion is as important as the work itself, I may have been wrong in saying that Cobain believed that commercial success was a sure sign of artistic failure. Charles, a little help here? But the sentiment exists, albeit perhaps only as a literary trope. Anyway, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I felt that way. Though I think it’s generally true, there are plenty of exceptions. No, I’m serious when I say I just want to make good photographs, though I do recognize that could change were I to put together a quality body of work, at which point I might want some recognition. Nevertheless, I’d rather have the work without the recognition than recognition without the work. But regarding self-promotion, especially for those of us doing work that involves authorities, there’s an intermediate ground where one needs a little self-promotion in order to facilitate the ability to do good work. Cause authorities are always gonna ask where this is going to be published and will often want the name of your editor so they can call and confirm. That’s where someone might need to do a bit of self-promotion to get an assignment, at least an assignment on spec, to get the necessary access to do the work. And that’s quite a bit different than what Panos was saying.


    as you well know i have always enjoyed dialogue with you and happily published Last Round and am always looking for more work from you…having deep Iowa family roots myself, i love it when an Iowan moves forward as has your colleague Danny Wilcox Frazier…in this spirit, as you may imagine Burn for all of us who spend so much of our time here is not viewed as a job…Burn is either like a child or a family or both….you may easily be able to imagine that i would feel like that about everyone here…so while i personally never would rest on laurels with either my personal work or my baby Burn, i will defend , as i would with family, if i feel either dissed, misunderstood, or taken for granted..isn’t that simply our collective human nature? no doubt about it, i often mis-read, as most of us tend to do here on the net..we read fast and if the message is not 100% clear, we will tend to interpret incorrectly..that may have happened to me with you…late night responses , which mine was to you should perhaps be prohibited by Harvey law!! in any case, many thanks for your clarification…and i think you must know by now , even if i do flare at times, i never never let any kind of temporary discomfort move forward for more than about 30 seconds…

    abrazos, david

  231. “i will defend , as i would with family, if i feel either dissed, misunderstood, or taken for granted”
    I wouldn’t expect anything less.

    Going to try to do a better job being clear in the future. Moving on.

    As far as Danny goes, it is humbling seeing his images. I find myself wondering if I will ever be capable to do that. Good motivation.


  232. MW…

    yes, that would be a great promo and innovative gesture, if Burn paid the readers!! smiling… in fact , that is what we do…just not all of the readers…we do pay the ones who apply for EPF who are judged to be the best and the ones whose essays we deem worthy….so while some will go unrequited , others end up being just fine as Burn readers…democracy works for many things, but unfortunately not in the distribution of funds…but we will try to spread it all out as much as possible..it does help however if the reader does just go out and take a better picture than most of the other readers…

    on Cobain and celebrity…i think most artists crave some recognition and yet most loathe celebrity..there is a wide wide difference , but these days celebrity seems to rule…so you want some select individuals to like and appreciate your work ,but get confused by mass hysteria or a false love of perhaps a celebrity aspect alone…being loved as a celebrity leaves most artists thinking they are being loved for the wrong reasons…and this is probably what Cobain felt…i am sure he on the one hand was happy to be out of garage band stage and had a real following, but also freaked out by mindless cult worship…just a guess….

    cheers, david

  233. THOMAS…

    surprise of all surprises, i really like this Business Traveler idea…for one thing, as obvious as it is , i do not think i have ever seen this idea even tried before…so it is unique as far as i know…now , one of the reasons it is probably unique is that it will be very very difficult to do..and few photographers would want to do it even though much of what you show us is part of every traveling photographer’s life as well…

    however, because it is your life is what makes it so compelling…but how you actually pull this off will be a supreme challenge because the narrative elements “planes, trains, and automobiles” can only take you so far…but looking at your images , i did find several that went beyond and were very nice photographs in their own right…this is much more sophisticated than your previous essay albeit sad or poignant instead of funny…i hope you are doing some writing and /or some voice over….

    ok, now also come up with a better title….i think..although if you made a book that in fact did look like the cover of a business magazine it could be very provocative as just Business Traveler as per this mythical magazine…this about all of this more than i am right now…this should not look like a photo book but like a business report of some type from a design standpoint ….this will be fun…i like it…go go

    cheers, david

  234. Thomas,

    Very interesting idea. I do A LOT of business travel myself (100k miles in the last 10 months), so now I’m kicking myself that I didn’t think of this :) Good luck, can’t wait to see the result!

  235. MW,

    I too thought Winter’s Bonme was a bit of over-the-top drama, until I chatted with a friend who saw it the same time I did…she works with welfare families in Appalachia, and said that some of the scenes and attitudes could have come straight from the enclaves of families she visits…but what is important is thatyou’ve got the real deal, and can tell the story as you find it. A wonderful – albeit sad (that it exists at all) opportunity.

    On the social note, I am almost at the exact crossroads of your travels, on I-64 and I-75. Louisville is about 50 minutes west of my home (Lexington), and Cincinnati is about 80 miles north. Please do let me know next time you are coming through, would love to have a chance to get together and meet in the flesh-and-blood world.

    To any following the “curator” thread….I am fortunate in that mine pionted out that I am seeing things that aren’t perhaps in my image that I thought might be, which I somewhat suspected in the back of my mind (perhaps reinforcing that gut instint, and the lesson here is learn to trust the gut inmstinct more)…and I need to examine my ideas perhaps all around the essay concept…or perhaps I will just shoot many more snapshots and figure I take good snapshots :)

    Thomas, love your idea – have messaged you elsewhere and provided more detail….

    I kind of searching for some light right now…but I suspect this mood will pass and it’s out there….


  236. so I have a question for the group….

    When you have an idea for an essay – do you share it? If so…with many? a Trusted few? only after you’ve worked on it? If so, after how long?

    I have a follow-up to that … but will pose it after ther are perhaps some replies…


  237. One story I think would be worth someone pursuing (not me; I’ve got enough on my plate at the moment) is a story about people/families that have been affected by the economic recession through no fault of their own.

    People losing jobs, shops closing down, effects on families (personal stories) etc; as downstream casualties of the dodgy dealings of shiny suited shysters in the banking industry. An essay showing the personal traumas being dealt with by the people who ended up being collateral damage. There must be some unknown effects waiting to be shown.

    I don’t know if anyone thinks the story would work, but maybe someone here may be able to use the idea!

  238. Not another look at poor me story Ross………………Collingwood won the All Blacks are doing well there is no depression in this part of the world

  239. Andrew; Funny we must have posted at the same time! I suppose it sort of answers your question. :-)

    Completely off-topic; I was talking to a photographer acquaintance who taught editorial/documentary photography at a local polytechnic. He mentioned that he shows a (documentary) photo to his class showing a bunch of naked people in a room. I can’t remember who took it, but it was from an iconic photographer; and was of something like a swingers party or similar (I think, I didn’t see the photo).

    Anyhow; he always asks the class to discuss the image. He said they always talk about the camera (probably) used, film, shutter speeds etc, but not one person has ever asked how the photographer had gained access to such a private occurrence, or how to get subjects to trust you etc. And of course; if you can’t get access then everything fades into insignificance.

  240. “Not another look at poor me story Ross”

    I agree Imants; but I was thinking more from the perspective of how the actions of a few can have bad downstream effect on others with no “real” connection.

  241. Ross….kind of….but I meant something beyond the conceptual, that you actually decide and start to pursue….

    I suppose the answers will be as varied as the artists who respond….

  242. Evidently you are not a mentor/teacher/tutor workshop presenter ……….one naturally shares a lot in those situations. What do you think David does………..keep all to himself? What do you really think burn is about dog eatdog?

  243. do you share?
    many times i dont even know myself what the “idea” is…
    Some usually have an idea and go for it…
    I usually just shoot,i live life, i “go for it” and the “idea” comes way later..
    Life dictates for me…life tells me what to do…life is my boss…cant tell my boss what to do..:)

  244. Hmmm…Imants…very true – I am a mentor, albeit in a very different role…but true.

    I suppose I mean outside of that very finite trusted circle….and I can honestly see it going eeither way…and I do know that even sometimes contractually, when on an assignment, a general idea may be shared (or maybe not) when the work itself can’t be shown….

    perhaps it’s a silly question – but as I said, I’m seeking some light, and in some ways am not even sure light to shine on what….

    A glass of wine may help :)

  245. Andrew there is a good chance that someone down the street has the same idea……….. You present the work to the public and there is always someone who refines and runs with your idea as they are better equipped in producing it. Start putting ego and that it’s mone it’s mine it’s all mine way of thinking into any assignment etc and you lose your concept and direction.

  246. a civilian-mass audience

    No problem ANDREWB…wine on me…the light will shine…

    Goodlight …


  247. Hello Everyone;
    After being one of the silent members round here on Burn since it all begun, I´ve decided make myself known. In fact I was also was bloody silent reading Road Trips blog….and I deeply regret not having posted anything round there.
    Bob Black,
    Hi there…. I took notice of your comment on “‘paying’ for BURN”, you´re totally right… this site has given me so much I can´t just sit here at home reading without giving back….So right now I´ve just started subscribing to Burn!
    I´ve been off work for the past year on crutches. Stuck pretty much at home all day trying to use my left foot again and thanks to Burn and all you guys who publish your work and log in and comment daily you´ve made my life a lot easier. So thanks to all you Burnians!

    I can´t really express in words my gratitude for all your online work. Your goodwill and drive to teach us your wisdom has changed me forever as a photographer….I´ve been a landscape photographer for half my life never completely happy with that type of photography….since I bumped into Road Trips in 2007 my outlook on photography just took a u-turn and at last thanks to your online work I´m slowly evolving or at least trying to break away from being a blocked unhappy photographer!! I struggle daily with the idea of trying to find the “Dream Assignment” I know it´s right in front of me I´m searching inside me and I will get there…, but at least I´m finding single images which are starting to please me….Don´t know if they are camera club or Burn work….at least I don´t feel blocked anymore.
    David next time you see Cristina Garcia Rodero, will you be kind enough to say hello on my behalf and send her my best wishes and tell her I´m waiting to see her book on Cuba published…she must publish!! It it really is brilliant. If you mention I´m the guy on crutches she met here in Palma de Mallorca where she gave an amazing conference this last October I´m sure she´ll remember me!! An amazing woman.

    Hi Panos,
    we seem to be both fans of Jim Morrison you´ve probably seen this but just in case… http://whenyourestrangemovie.com/

    So anyway, to all members of Burn wishing you all a very Happy Christmas

  248. Imants…very good point….thank you….

    Civi….wine is poured, a nice inexpensive cabernet I found that is quite tasty….

    And the weekend is here, and for once I am not anticipating the weekend being ‘two more work days until Monday” for my job, but actually two days I may take advantage of….and no travel in the immediate future….

  249. a civilian-mass audience

    No..no…we all travel…

    We are going …IOWA…to the Corn State…Cecil and Wilma are waiting…
    The door is open…

    I am running to my bed…
    See you all there…tomorrow…

  250. I had a different take on Andrew B.’s question when I read it. Kind of like self-editing photos on a larger scale, in case the essay doesn’t pan out. I also though of this video I saw a while back, about why voicing your goals may make you likely to achieve them (via Lifehacker):


    Could receiving accolades on a great essay idea hinder the future, final success of the essay itself – or is it better to present a finished product? Myself, I don’t know; I’m a civilian, a snapshooter…

  251. Imants, this is true. I was thinking along the lines of “completion of an essay” being analogous to “completion of a goal”, not impeding the sharing of ideas…

    As Ross wrote, “without doing the work you have nothing anyway”.

  252. The other key thing is that a better story might unexpectantly come out of the original idea. The new story could be better than the original, but you wouldn’t have “discovered” the new story/angle if you hadn’t started something in the first place.

  253. “this means that you have to share just like beta testing”

    Imants, that is a very good point/analogy. Kind of goes along with DAH’s earlier comment regarding the inability of one to effectively edit one’s own work.


    well, thanks for showing up here…visibly that is…i will of course mention you to Cristina who i should be seeing soon…she is one of my favorite photographers, and i pushed very hard for her to become of Magnum member…nobody works more or better than Cristina…and she knows exactly what she wants…i will say one thing that Cristina does NOT do well…she is TOTALLY incapable of editing her own work…worse than anyone i have ever seen…of course the problem is she really does have too many good pictures of some mystical events and she just cannot bear to make the decision of one over the other…but, there are problems and then there are problems…;)

    cheers, david

  255. I feel that one doesn’t need to sit down with others directly in in order to edit work but one must be aware of audience > communication and that is a great editor.
    Personally I don’t have to edit /cull images as I construct my books and the book itself is one artwork no matter how many pages there are

  256. PAUL….;)
    I totally second Haik and DAH…
    It’s an honor to have you around for so long..
    Join in..(I mean u already did)
    We have a lot to learn from YOU and I hope many more
    cool people will follow your example…
    We need new (old) blood..
    We are rapidly “growing” and “new blood” is more than needed..
    Of course we don’t want to end up like the desperate army recruiters..
    Anyway yes… Jim Morrison!
    Please don’t get me started on this one..
    Big hug
    Please Join our dysfunctional family…

  257. a civilian-mass audience

    Goodmorning from cold …brrrr…Europe!

    I will second HAIK,DAH,PANOS…
    You silent no more…I knew it…the Universe is working!
    You have been here longer than me therefore wine on you!

    Wear your seatbelt…you never know…who the driver might be:)))

    Viva BURNIANS!

  258. Everyone, thanks for the warm welcome!
    funny you should mention Cristina´s problems with editing…
    She introduced us to two projects she was working on…Cuba and the other was a mixture of voodoo and lesser known religious practices mixed in with porn festivals!! I was quite surprised by how long each multimedia presentation lasted…
    easily well over 10 minutes each and about 3 secs per image!!
    Of course I was surprised being used to Burn and how many people complain about anything lasting over 40 images. Well it was interesting because her work so so powerfully expressive, passionate and full of authorship I don´t think anyone moved or blinked throughout both works. We were all transfixed and mesmerized by the power of her “voice”.
    What an inspiring powerful little woman…
    Any chance of bringing Cristina round here to Burn to present one of her projects? Of course edited…or the Burn servers will crash!
    She is the kind of person who just goes to prove we are the ones who put barriers and limits in our work…
    Desire and willpower can win over anything if we are willing to do that little extra with our work.
    Cheers Paul

  259. Hi Civi!!
    Yes I´ve been roaming a very long time round here…Thank god the world isn´t full of shy bloggers like me and there are people like Marcin and Aga or David would probably have given up a long time ago…
    Anyway I was just a little to occupied with 2 little toddlers at home and trying to digest all DAH´s posts/lessons!!
    So in a way I am probably the expert on comments round here!! I tend to usually read everyone’s messages here. Every page has a little gold nugget and a lesson in life, creativity and photography from all you Burnians.
    Then there is DAH´s daily tweets that really help out when you are bit down…struggling on crutches, chasing kids round the house while my wife is out working!!
    Well off to teach 23 kids…average age 21…
    landscape photography workshop…my first day out with one crutch…there first landscape excursion into the wild and I promise to BURN them!!!
    Cheers Paul

  260. Imants:

    “I feel that one doesn’t need to sit down with others directly in in order to edit work but one must be aware of audience > communication and that is a great editor”

    You don’t mean ‘shoot for the audience’, do you?

    Hi Paul :)

  261. DAVID,

    thank you for your positive feedback. This is very motivating and even more challenging.
    Alright, I’ll dive down again and think about a title and more pictures.

    I’ll keep posting here, when I have something new to show.

  262. Imants, not really.. what I have is my opinion, was more interested in hearing what you are saying but I am not understanding, that’s what I asked in the first place..

  263. PAUL :))

    WELCOME HOME ! :))))

    great to hear your voice here and bravo for the subscription :)))…

    we’re all in this together :)


    p.s. yes, christina rocks!

  264. Thomas,
    no reason to call and wake me up…im already up…struggling to get on the bike…
    As you know, i almost made it to “Panama” last night but no “entry” visa was granted so i had to return back to the States…(if u know what i mean;)
    good looking out brother

  265. Paul Parker, hello.

    Here’s a picture for you, http://bit.ly/g5NLa6 in honour of you and your convalescence.

    Wasn’t Jim Morrison just pardoned for gross indecency or some such? Perhaps you’ve all already discussed this. Yet again I have catching up to do. Perhaps over the holidays I can burn through some of the postings here. Maybe I should break a leg and do as Paul did, sit and read for a year.

    You and I have something in common, Paul. Working wives and chasing kids and the like, excepting the knackered legs of course.

    Delighted you’re loosening up and making photographs that excite you. Who cares if they’re club or burn material. Just keep at it and see what emerges. I turned my cameras on my sons and it turned my photo world on its head. And me along with it. I’m a very different person as a result.

    You know, the more I immerse myself into this Burn phenomenon the more I find myself pulling back from video and filmmaking. I’m becoming utterly and completely besotted and obsessed with stills and street photography all over again. My film ideas are fading and being replaced with book plans. And more besides. I may even pull out of my co-op filmmaking group and instead focus acutely on my stills.

    I’m about to have conversations with some other London street photographers in hopes of establishing a wee group to meet, eat, drink and screen a few times a year. To congregate, collaborate, coordinate and invigorate.

    I’ll report back as soon as plans take hold. In my gut this is right. The filmmaking will continue but secondarily. Would also love to have some composers involved. I just love how jazz and street photography work together. Some of the European jazz I’m hearing at the moment is mesmerizing. I just want to fill this music with photography. There’s something coming. Something. And I’m dedicating my photographic life to finding it and bringing it forth.

    In fact, I’ve already started.

    Paul Parker, point us to some of your pictures. Or have you already? Let me go look see.

    New Year’s resolution for 2011, to be more involved in Burn.

  266. “…it does help however if the reader does just go out and take a better picture than most of the other readers…”

    Yea, that’s the rub, isn’t it? Then we get into the question of what makes a good picture? I’m speaking 20,000 foot view here, not just you or burn. I understand that when it comes to publishing or acceptance in the gallery world a good picture is whatever the editor/publisher/owner/curator says it is. I don’t mean that as a put down. I understand that “whatever they say it is” is usually based on a lifetime of study and experience and generally worthy of respect. But photography is not like math, at least not in the respect that there is only one correct answer. No formula exists that one can follow to guarantee a good photo. Lighting, composition, story, etc. all matter but somehow you can have a photo that intellectually meets all the criteria yet is still lacking. The opposite even more so. In that respect, photography is similar to math. Some solutions are more far more elegant than others. Of course that begs the question what is the problem being solved? Photographers like William Eggleston or Jeff Wall are solving different problems than people like, say, Alex Webb or Bruce Davidson. What makes an Eggleston photo of an ordinary scene or object any different than similar photos you can find in any family’s shoebox of old photos? What makes a Wall photo of a sapling in a vacant lot, just like countless other saplings, interesting? Intent is obviously a large part of it, but not everything by any means.

    When considering the quality of my own work, I don’t feel much need to have taken better pictures than most of the other readers. I do however, feel it important not to have taken pictures that are worse. But again, how can we tell? My approach is twofold. First, I think that we as individuals need to develop our own aesthetics based on significant education and familiarity with great works. We need to have an educated opinion, not easily come by, that our work is good. At that point, we can consider the opinions of professionals in the field. If they agree with our educated opinion of ourselves, great. If not, we have to ask ourselves the hard question of who is right? Odds are good it’s the top professionals. Yet history is strewn with examples of great work that was not immediately recognized as such. How much do you believe in your educated opinion? What’s the likelihood you’re just kidding yourself? Pretty good, but… is there a legitimate but? Personally though, I’ve yet to get to that point where I think my own opinion diverges that much from the general professional outlook.

  267. MW

    You either like it or you don’t. For whatever reason. Talking personal work here, I guess because it’s quite different for assignment work, I think because then others are inevitably involved.

    Either a picture’s got a little something special about it or it doesn’t. When it’s personal work then what others think, for the most part, is of lessor importance is it not? Sure you can be guided by what others think but you need not necessarily be swayed.

    Photography is tricky because it’s both a technical craft and a communicative language. It can be pure mathematics and it can be pure poetry. Mind you, mathematics can beautifully poetic too.

    I’m getting out of my depth. Time to eat. And drink. Hmmm.

  268. Paul, no, it’s not about being guided by what others think, it’s more about respecting the opinions of people who have earned respect. One can ultimately differ, but it shouldn’t be a trivial matter. You have to be your own harshest critic first, then openly consider what others have to say. Over time you’ll internalize the critiques of those you respect, making your own critiques that much more effective. Of course I’m speaking mostly for myself. I realize others can have different ways. Whatever works…

    About the difference between personal and assignment work, I know what you’re saying, but I choose to see this world as David describes it. A world in which there are no undiscovered great photographers. A world in which there is little distinction between personal and assignment work. A world where assignment editors hire a photographer for his or her personal vision rather than an ability to produce pictures that look like everyone else’s. Not that I won’t take an assignment for pay and produce in a style that the editor or art director dictates (though I do turn down a few), but I don’t consider that my work.

  269. The problem with looking at your own work (for a personal project) is that you see that same work so many times. Often I wish I could borrow a pair of someone else’s eyes, screw them into my eye sockets, and see those photos from a new “never seen before” aspect. Sure would make editing a lot easier…

  270. MW, agreed. I come from a hard news back round which way back then, was formulaic and that is why I left it. I would love it if I were hired for my way of thinking and seeing. Photographically opinionating, I guess.

    You know, reading your words makes me desire a mentor more and more. I feel I have much to offer mentoring younger photographers and that is something I will look to do later in 2011 but I too could surely benefit from a little guidance and mentorship. That’s what my little project of hopefully gathering some good street shooters together to eat, drink, talk and show work, is all about ultimately.

    Wow. More thinking to be done.


  271. Hi paultreacy,
    the limo and the crutches made me laugh quite a bit, thanks!! Injuries like mine can be seen as something terrible or you can take my view and look for something good out of it. Funnily enough I am starting to see it as a blessing…
    Images!!! This is one of the things that has been worrying me a little about posting round here…
    You see I´ve only just started working on the type of photography which Burns usually publishes…but I´ve also noticed throughout most of the dialogues and comments I´ve read one thing DAH seems to actually like, is people who comment or give an opinion on someones published work should also back it up by showing their own stuff. Which is pretty basic common sense but as we all know a couple of people have actually not done this…
    Well I´ve got an image with which I´m going to dive in the deep end and send to DAH to see if he is interested as “single image”. If it fails to interest him I PROMISE to find someway to post a link to it from this dialogue STRAIGHT AWAY… I will happily take all criticism even if it is harsh because that is the only way onwards…even if it means heading back to shooting landscapes!!
    Of course I could show you landscape images but I just don´t think it is appropriate at this site.
    Cheers Paul

  272. Why ever not, Paul? I’d like to see your work. WE ALL WOULD.

    I like your attitude. Often you just cannot change the situation you’re in and so adapting to best avail of whatever opportunities present, is well smart.

    Link away, why don’t you. To your hearts content. Let it fly, dude. Let the images flow. Show yourself! Please?

    Back me up people.

    Sorry, I’m not being a bully am I?

  273. I hadn’t heard of the HCB inversion trick, but Leonardo da Vinci would often turn his back to a painting and hold a mirror up to view it. He’d immediately see any compositional disturbances.

  274. Well well, didn’t know that. Terrific. Gotta check out for a bit, put the kids to bed and Claire and I will settle down to some political satire on the telly.

    See y’all later on. Cheerio.


  275. OK Paul!! :)))
    Here you go…
    Began this blog as a need to sort of see my thoughts and images from a different perspective.
    You want to try mentoring…
    Make sure you give 110% nothing less is of any use.
    I´ve been out in the field today teaching 17 kids landscape work, I´ve enjoyed myself 200%. Started at 11:00am supposed to finish at 5:30…sun had disappeared 7:30pm and I was still teaching a load of kids with the most amazing desire to learn…BRILLIANT!! :) They told me it has been the best photography excursion they´ve done with the school. Teaching is one of the most satisfying things in life for me. I´ve been in pain since 13:00pm pain killers no use I don´t care I´ve managed to inspire these kids the beauty of our photography!!Well worth every second.
    Time to say goodnight to all of you

  276. The difference between “false” photographs and “true” ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.
    Salvador Dali

  277. Maybe that’s why HCB often turned his upside down, apparently……. more tha likely that is how the view cameras operated some photographers see it as a natural way of seeing

  278. Hi Imants :)
    The view camera in my case seeing the image upside down makes me more aware of what usually very obvious and take for granted. A bit like the famous-optical-illusion drawing, called “Vase Faces”. It makes you shift from dominant left-hemisphere mode subdominant right hemisphere which is supposedly more creative and less logical.
    Cheers Paul

  279. Marcin , nice link…
    Amazing fashion photog, Lachapelle style…i liked the surrealistic approach , and very provocative work for our republican super conservative american society…

  280. PANOS, it’s pouring rain like there’s no tomorrow here in our happy little burg. I would complain, but at this time of year, I will forego this, as I glad that I will not have to shovel all of this rain out of my driveway tomorrow.

  281. :)Michael,
    My comment on view cameras certainly had nothing to with HCB. I would be very surprised if Imants comment on view cameras had anything to do with HCB either.

  282. a civilian-mass audience

    PANOS…Reporting from Grecolandia…Cold,baby snow in Athens…
    Oime…EVA…where is your daughter???
    My chickens are freezing…2babies didn’t make it:(
    PAULP …what’s your global positioning?

    Running like BOBBY…

    I will be back

  283. ……other than that it is an painters way of reviewing composition which became particularly popular with the advent of the camera and the rise of abstraction with artists such as Cézanne at the turn of the century

  284. Well that´s very interesting never new that at all!!
    Both Michael Kircher and Imants my appolgies for my mistake.

  285. Civi, don’t exactly know, a couple km outside Athens, up a hill.. temp dropped about 20 degrees it seems and your poor babies paid the toll :(

  286. Akaky, I’m responsible for your rain. I don’t do cold: I do central heating. I opened the front door about two weeks ago and caused high pressure over the U.K. which plunged the country into a mini ice age. This had the added effect of blocking the usual westerly flow of weather patterns (wet and windy) – basically leaving them over your happy little burg. No need to thank me. Just send a donation towards the heating bill.



  287. a civilian-mass audience

    Yeap…from 18C down to -3…keep checking…your daughter
    Snow level…ok…I can’t complain cause FROSTFROG will come and BURN me:)))
    No view cameras here…no rainbows…no unicorns…
    Only I and my chickens…struggling to survive in an abstract way…
    Far away from the Corn State!

    PAUL.P…you are International:)

    Keep it up BURNIANS…tick-tock

  288. Mild the last couple of days here in old London town. More artic intensity due to descend upon us next weekend however. Snow, Ice, the works. Britain will again be brought to its knees. Relatives due in from Prague who were hoping to get away from such chilly misery. I wonder how it’ll all play out?

  289. hmm… -7C here now….been snowign since about 7:00 pm, that micro-particle snow, very very fine….about 2″ worth of it now…school is closed for tomorrow .. I went out in the street and could see all the way down the block….could probably shoot available light with the reflections from all the snow.

    Perhaps I will get out early and take a few images….but now, the tree is trimmed, the fire is going, and the wine is open…

    good light and stay warm,

  290. Andrew, the weather is about the same here – although the National Weather Service has us at -6C (well, I am south of you :-) Just took the dogs out, kids up the street are skateboarding in the snow – like it needs to be more challenging!

  291. you guys are fairly south of me but I’m at 27 cm of snow, drifting and at -12C with a wind chill of -21C… In January it’s not uncommon to see about -28C with windchills of -40. brrrr…..

  292. Still warm and sunny here. As I’ve mentioned before, wherever I am I end up spending quite a bit of time out doing tourist stuff. And of course I’ve always got a camera with me. I find it amusing to create little slideshows from these outdoor meanderings.

    So if you’re interested, this is the latest. Best to mellow out a bit before clicking.

  293. Panos…

    30 degree’s here and super sunny… well right now it’s pitch black outside but i can hear the frogs croaking in the dam – summer’s here!

    and from a tv doco about Dali the film maker…

    ‘he had a very different eye. when you have a man of genius, someone who sees the world and who expresses what he sees happening around him, who stresses something that seems simple to you, but who makes it blossom… that’s irreplaceable’

  294. @ ALL, but mostly to Italian burnians…

    Near freezing point in Italy, cold and grey.
    But inside the parliament the temperature is at boiling point…Geez!!! Berlusco, I think that your are in a faster countdown to leave…


  295. Weather relatively mild here in London at the moment but frigid conditions are coming soon.

    Anyone staying up to watch the meteor shower tonight? Too cloudy here. Pity really as I have a relatively dark place I can view from. Grrr.

  296. ok..last year in greece i was telling u a story about recession and truck drivers..
    ok.. here is that slideshow that i forgot to post on time..
    I spent two days & one night with a truck driver and it was enough to drive all over greece…
    wanna see?
    click below, set slideshow to 5 seconds so u can read the subtitles, and enjoy….


    (just like the good ol’ Road Trips days)

  297. P
    great story!!
    As always, I enjoyed your text too….
    a visual diary
    of a day…
    ……. got my chips cashed in…
    keep truckin’……

  298. a civilian-mass audience

    Same here in Grecoland…the only difference…
    Nothing left to boil in our parliament…

    You got pictures from the old ” good times”…
    Nothing is moving here…strikes,recession,depression…
    Black and white…everywhere
    I love B&W…not this kind though

    Keep posting EVA…
    It seems to me…Your daughter will stuck in Athens for a long time…
    System is down…hmmm…

    Black and white,
    I need some light.
    I have to focus
    to find my locus…

  299. Patricio M, please don’t jinx it!! It’s embarrassing..

    Civi, she should leave from Patra on Friday.. we’ll see.. keep warm!

    Panos, thanks for the slideshows.. reminds me I should edit my Istanbul pics.. fond memories of Ara’s Cafe..

  300. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…I am might sleep with my chickens tonight…
    Feathers…I love feathers :)

    Thanks for the link…sometimes I forget…who is the True Original…
    Don’t you want to hug this guy and squeeze him like a feather pillow:)
    “The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.”
     Thucydides (Ancient Greek historians )


  301. a civilian-mass audience

    Well…I will sleep with my chickens tonight…
    They can read proof better…:))))))))

  302. Civi,
    DAH wrote “once every once in awhile you meet someone who really kicks you in the gut….has a lasting influence ……someone you know is just a little more special than everyone else…. sure, all men are created equal, but some seem more equal than others….
    he was writing about Andrew Wyeth…
    But for many people round here this could be
    David Alan Harvey.
    I´ve never had the pleasure of meeting him but his words have done a lot of good to me.

  303. “So take me back to Constantinople
    No, you can’t go back to Constantinople
    Been a long time gone, Constantinople
    Why did Constantinople get the works?
    That’s nobody’s business but the Turks”

  304. Eva,
    yes, Ara Cafe…!!!! u can see famous Ara Guler (Bresson’s good friend) in photo no:5 and magnum Nikos Economopoulos in mirror photo no:6 on the Istanbul slideshow…

    Salvador Dali…!!!!! the Genius

    yes yes , happiness/freedom/courage…makes sense!

    ( Remarkable the shit they have to put up with..)
    Indeed…On that short but arduous trip with Pavlos the trucker , i realized the magnitude of the abuse truckers go through.
    ..endless hours driving, no gps, not knowing your exact schedule, unloading the truck by themselves,
    not enough gas, not allowed to drive the truck back home and not warned about the latter..now imagine if u working for a usa truck company and u scheduled to drive for example from california to canada and back, and somewhere on your way back (lets say somewhere around Denver colorado) your boss calls out of the blue telling u to pull over, park and lock the truck and find another way to return home just because gas/diesel prices hiked that day, without any previous warning, without asking u if u have enough money to eat , without caring how u gonna make it back!!!!!!!!!!!????????… scary, unpredictable and obscene work ethics,,,and no health insurance of course or any other benefits,..Dark Ages

  305. a civilian-mass audience

    “The older you get, the tougher it is to lose weight because by then, your body and your fat are really good friends”
    Get on your bike PANOS…I will try to follow…but I don’t want to ruin a good friendship…:)))

    PAULP…I hear you mate…
    keep your good energy…

    Life is like a box of BURNING friends…
    You never know who you are gonna meet…:)))

    Ouzo and kourabiedes to all of you…!!!

  306. “The older you get, the tougher it is to lose weight because by then, your body and your fat are really good friends”

    not true… lame excuse for the lazy… i havent been exercising for too long..i was busy smoking..
    i was the king of Laziness…now im on the bike for 4th day in a row..25 miles average per day…almost 100 miles all together and 1/4 of my fat is gone…or turned into something else..but i dont see it…that smoking habit though is so powerful..im still on zyban and patches…cravings stopped but i dont trust my mind…

    “The older you get, the most power u have over your addictions, your body and your bicycle can become really good friends”

  307. Panos – Congratulations on Istanbul; good luck with cycling.

    Advice (from experience cycling): Mmm-body and M-body do not mix – trust me. Leave the camera at home! :(

  308. secret…shhhhh……i’m doing a hospital “story”, that took a crazy “turn” and now i dont know what im doing..but everything is under control…
    Austin this friday..anyone in Austin???????

  309. a civilian-mass audience

    lazy no more…
    Lame excuses no more…
    I will start with walking…
    I am gonna walk …with my fellow civilians and the stray dogs
    We will protest…we will march
    cause Greece is stuck…
    Come on…we can do it…
    “Disobey the government’s decision,” says the man who wrote the music to Zorba the Greek.
    VIVA Miki Theodoraki…
    Viva the Revolution…

    I will be back later…

  310. Civi, I’ll walk with you.. didn’t I tell Patricio M to not jinx it yesterday.. stuck over here too, will there ever be change? A government that doesn’t think about seats under their backs but about the needs of people who pay those seats???

  311. panos! :))))

    big big congrats on the Gruler exhibition…i love that his work…a student gave me a book of his about istanbul a couple years back….that is wonderful news :)))

    so is the losing weight ;)))….and dig your new slim shady (haircut!)….

    you got real dougie now! :)))


  312. PANOS..and yes, ALL

    amazing…your work now on international display…again…i love that magazine IZ…you are in there with some of the very best…now before you say “yea, but i am broke “, do not worry about it and just remember how far you have come..hey, everybody is struggling…but not everybody getting the recognition as are you….so just survive somehow…

    you have IZ and Burn 01 in your hands…no small feat in print in these days….not millions of mindless fans as American Idol tv show, but a few discerning fans….respectful appreciative educated audience…isn’t that the best anyway??

    and just shoot the hell out of that hospital situation…and do not start popping in links here…just keep it under wraps for the moment…not everything has to be posted on Facebook or on your website every day…social networking is valuable but better AFTER you do the book or after you have totally shot the essay…

    people do not need to know everything about you all the time…..keep the very best work hidden until you decide how you want to carefully bring it out…over showing of work prematurely can lessen its final impact…

    everybody thrives on good secrets finally and finely revealed……

    anyway, go go go….

    cheers, david

  313. DAH:

    Your advice to Panos is clearly advice to all of us.

    Photography certainly is a “less is more” craft and business in all aspects, from a dedicated audience to how much work is shown etc. Trying to appeal to all and sundry is a BAD move.

    As you’ve said on Burn before, it is a result of the forever changing web culture in which we live: many people are craving the next thing, wanting to see more, before they have even had the chance to really contemplate and appreciate what is already presented to them.

    PANOS: Well done. Just keep peddling that bicycle….

    Justin P

  314. JUSTIN..

    yes, i just changed the header to ALL…yes, folks are devouring too much too fast…like not sitting back and really enjoying the meal……i think those of us here should make a very conscious effort to spend some time really tasting the food so to speak and an equal amount of time preparing the dish if one is the chef du jour…we cannot be reminded of this enough….thanks.

    cheers, david

  315. DAH:

    Exactly. If we compare photography to food, we should be aiming for the equivalent of an El Bulli menu, not McDonalds.

    Yesterday I met with the publicity company for the book featuring my Fenland essay. If you are still interested in the work for Burn, please contact me on Skype. I’ll be around for the next hour or so. Then later this evening. Or tomorrow.



  316. Panos, David, Justin, ALL :))

    patiences IS everything…seems nearly (by many) to be an impossible quality during these days of facebook, blogs, online, competitive madness….but that must be the key…i too rarely show work until it’s ‘done’…not because i’m secretive but because i always need time to look.work.digest.think….and it never feels done until it’s out, and even that doesn’t seen finished, ever…just put aside…at the moment, getting ready to fly to moscow to ‘finish’ the russian work that was started 5 years ago…and next week, hoping to finish the landscape/calligraphy work for Burn (and still won’t show it/send it to DAH/anton until i return from moscow and have a chance to get away from it for a couple weeks)….the key is not to feel the need to compete with the 10,000,000 other photogrpahers/photo-based projects ….it’s just keeping one’s own grove in their living…

    got some news about an upcoming exhibition marina and I were invited to, will participate in…that’ll will send next week…

    gotta fly…


  317. Well, when Panos was showing his work as he was shooting in Venice, I personally found it very interesting to look at all his images and then try to see what I would keep and then compare this personnal editing to the one that was finally done by DAH and Panos.
    For me it was a valuable exercise in my learning of editing and in no way it lessened the impact of Panos’ work afterwards.

  318. Panos,
    Be patient with cycling/weight loss it takes time…you may even put on a little more weight during the first weeks…muscles growing and adapting to new way of life. Make those pedals spin as fast as possible even though you are not going fast best way to push up metabolism. Take it easy and don’t overtrain.
    Now if you are really serious about losing weight try running 3 times a week 40 minutes and tell me about it in a years time. If you can’t face 40 minutes running try running 3 times a week twice a day 20 minutes. Now that really burns fat!!
    Why running? 40 mins running is practically the same physical effort as riding a bike 6 hours. Amazing but true.
    Whatever enjoy because you can… I’m on crutches due to training accident preparing for marathon!

  319. MARTIN B..

    i just remembered i owe you a bag…so sorry, i have just been so busy and then trapped up north…anyway, send me an email if you would be so kind as a reminder…i really need reminders on things like that…it is not a job i can delegate!!!

    yes, i know what you mean on seeing the Panos edit process…and this is the heart of mentoring that i do in workshops …everyone gets to see the process for everyone else…and there will always be that element here on Burn for works in progress one way or another…we are starting with several new people working on new things….but for Panos now, he is better off just being mentored behind the scenes for his own good….i am sure you may appreciate this…..the next thing you need to see from him is a book or an exhibit…you have probably already seen enough of his particular process…we can move now to Thomas Bregulia for example who is going to be working on a travel businessman essay…or to someone else working in a totally different way…

    anyway, your bag is in the mail..almost!!

    cheers, david

  320. BOB BLACK

    it is hard to keep up these days…most of it i think is because we think we are supposed to keep up because we can keep up…when i see a group of four people having dinner these days and all texting to someone else, i realize we have all gone a bit mad….as far as your work is concerned, you can certainly relax with us…no need to rush…we like to savor things here…so whenever you are ready, we will be ready…looking forward to the work Bob..

    cheers, david

  321. a civilian-mass audience

    To have inspiring messages from BURNIANS…valuable
    To have powerful life lessons from DAH…priceless

    Safe travels to ALLLLL…BOBBY,REIMAR…all of you out there…enjoy!

    I thrive on good secrets…tick-tock :)))

  322. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…whatever happens in Rome…happens in Athens…
    Tell your daughter to stay away from the center of the city…
    she is Italian…she will make it…:)
    Una ratsa,ulna fatsa…:)

  323. a civilian-mass audience

    Oime…PANOS…where are you???
    We are BURNing here…
    Hmmm…not much to Burn…

    Running like BB

  324. Eva,
    there is somewhere on the web another interview/documentary with him. I can´t recall where I saw it…
    interesting because he went into his reasons for not using digital, but it was a paysite and just saw a little preview of it.
    That reminds me, I´ve got hop down to town to see Pep Bonet´s new exhibition sometime this week. Palma de Mallorca is his hometown…

  325. Here´s a question…
    Do you Burnians practice/shoot images everyday…?
    By this I mean do you practice like a concert pianist who has the discipline to keep his “chops”…
    To keep the eye in practice taking images even though they aren´t of any significance…
    Waking up every morning and slinging the camera round your neck/shoulder like a shirt…
    Or do you only pick the camera up when you´re in the right mood-inspired or working on an assignment.

  326. Hey Bob, since you seem to be chomping at the bit to whack me on some walking around photos, here’s a recent one, subject is, coincidentally, inner city black church. Easy target. I deserve it. Go for it.

  327. DAH, Justin P, Bob, All…

    regarding your conversation from yesterday,

    ‘folks are devouring too much too fast…’

    you might find this interesting – especially the second half

  328. MW..

    i know you did not ask me to play, but while you are waiting for Bob, i will jump in fast…this is simple..just give yourself the same critique you would give if you saw this by someone else…trying to imagine…

  329. Yes, Pep Bonet is another great and brave one, stumbled over him when I fist saw the Amputee Soccer pics ( http://bit.ly/ik6OoW ).. seems also a nice guy, from what I’ve been told, very simple and helpful..

  330. Eva,
    I used to go to the same printing lab as Pep Bonet. I haven´t had the pleasure of meeting him, but a friend of mine bumped into him once at the lab, didn´t know who Pep Bonet was and they had a nice innocent chat one afternoon about photography whilst waiting to pick-up there prints. Another friend saw him walking round town with a Gf1 the other day.
    I think I saw the Amputee Soccer pics at the lab being prepared for a gallery opening they were impressive.

  331. The question I asked before is basically because I´ve got a load of new students who admit they only use their camera for homework and when inspired…
    So last Saturday I went out with them on a photography excursion and I was quite shocked to see these kids in their second year having problems with the most basic of mechanics with a camera…
    I saw some very new ways of holding a camera…a couple haven´t ever used anything but zooms…
    These same kids keep telling me they want to go Pro…
    So I´ve made it quite clear they better start sleeping, eating, living with their cameras…

  332. Europe on its knees…Democracy is dead…viva the golden boys…viva wall street…this is the monster they created…first housing bubble bursts in the US, thousands homeless, see DETROIT essay next door to see what happened, then Europe is falling apart…greece , italy, spain , portugal…one after another the “P.I.G.S” are dying…Englands debt is out of control , and here back home in california unemployment up to 10%…but dont believe them..its more like 15% or higher…competing with the king of unemployment which is of course Spain…But the problem just started here in the US…We are going to witness stuff like this video below…
    Take a peak of what the future holds ( this video shot in Athens couple days ago )

  333. Paul, attributed to a number of golfers (but I believe it was Arnold Palmer) is the quote “The more I practice the luckier I get”. I often visualise photographs, particularly when driving and unable to stop. The more one uses a camera the more using it becomes intuitive. I remember Nat Geo photographer Jim Stanfield stating that it took about a month working on an story before he felt on the top of his game (I’m paraphrasing here).

    As for the students, make sure that the get a good photography book education, but you know that, don’t you?

    Panos, the lights are randomly going out here in England – for about 15 seconds duration – to save money! Walking down the street I’m reminded of the Billy Jean video!

  334. Thanks Mike,
    Yes I´m making sure they are are getting a good book education…I´m supposed to be teaching them landscape work. At the end of the lessons I keep bringing out books like Divided Soul, Sleeping by Missippi, Walker Evans, Salgado and of course my favourite Sally Mann so they are safe round there. I think I´ll take The Americans next.
    By the way I like your work…I think I´ll keep quiet tomorrow round here and spend sometime looking at your images!

    but I can´t help thinking with Europe on its knees and USA trembling there is some shadow goverments quietly smiling waiting to exploit us a little more once all hell lets loose with the excuse of bringing law and order back…
    and all this crisis all planned long ago…I smell conspiracy

  336. Seriously, I’m criticized for not putting anything out there. Well hey, I put something out there, an inner city african american church photo no less, and even begged you all to whack me on it. So c’mon. What do you think about this african american church photo? I’ve described the subject as akin to an olympic figure skating event. I’ve criticized a famous, incredibly well respected photographer for his approach on the subject. You’ve all seen plenty of these things. Is this photo honest? Is it true? Does it tell you anything about the inner city african american community? Is it what you expected to see knowing the subject was an inner city african american church? Is it all a joke? If so, is it a good one? A little too blurry? Does it just plain suck? This is your opportunity. Tell me what you really think.

  337. Viva La Revolution? Have we not learned war accomplishes nothing? Will we ever evolve? All war does is kill innocent people and never, NEVER, solves the problem. Oh, and certainly will NOT resolve the economic crisis except to line the pockets of those that arm the revolution. What a stupid saying: Viva La Revolution indeed.

  338. Okay, mw, I’ll bite —

    Last summer I had dinner with a South Asian drug dealer in East London (long story). He styled himself after Tupac, with gold chains and red track suit, with a red cap and a joint tucked behind his ear. He’s a flamboyant character, full of self regard, but with a hint of vulnerability that I could detect only because I knew his friends and had heard stories about him. He was totally invested in his Tupac persona and lifestyle.

    I didn’t photograph him.

    If I had been able to spend more time with him and get to know him beyond the Tupac front, I would have been interested in shooting him (I liked him, and this would have been possible). But to photograph him as Tupac, to me, would have seemed dishonest, as if I were making fun of him, presenting him in caricature. He looked like a TV drug dealer, and though he was an actual dealer of cocaine, what would be the point of photographing him in a way that merely confirmed a viewer’s expectation? It might be journalistically accurate to photograph him as he presented himself, but I knew that such a photo would be dishonest.

    Not that this is some sort of moral quandary. I’m just more interested in photos that move beyond what one would normally imagine.

    So your photo — black kid in church. Is it true, honest? Sure. But if I say the phrase, “black kid in church,” I can imagine your photo without clicking on your link. I would be interested his story and thus interested in photos that are suggestive of his story. You might produce such photos, but the photo in your link doesn’t move beyond the obvious (and you know this, which is why you posted it in this discussion!)

    Similarly, if you tell me there is a cool essay on Burn about urban decay in Detroit and the plight of inner-city African Americans as the economy and infrastructure crumble around them, I can see those pictures in my head before viewing Danny’s on the screen.

    But I can enjoy Danny’s work, even if it moves among familiar themes (church, gun violence, intergenerational conflict, etc.). And I can also wish for more of the counterintuitive and unexpected — an honesty beyond the obvious, something that does not *merely* confirm my expectations.

  339. Paul, thanks for the link.. and please show Harry Gruyaert’s books to your students.. I’m not much into landscape photography, but love his approach and work!

  340. mw, about dis/honesty and you being hung up a tad about the subject of church photographs, I’d suggest to listen to the Pep Bonet videos posted up here by Paul Parker.. where he talks about faith, in a context worse than that of Detroit (imo).. so showing that kind of pictures in this context, would it be dis/honest? And if so, to whom? To you? Because you have seen oh so many pictures of it? Would it be more honest to skip it, just because we know it? If so, we could skip a great deal of photography, couldn’t we?

  341. with gold chains and red track suit, with a red cap and a joint tucked behind his ear…….2Pac does not have a mortgage on that look or the lifestyle there are people who enjoy the style and don’t do it just out of pure imitation. As Panos said 2Pac has a lot more cred than what you imply

  342. a civilian-mass audience

    “Christmas gift suggestions:
    To your enemy, forgiveness.
    To an opponent, tolerance.
    To a friend, your heart.
    To a customer, service.
    To all, charity.
    To every child, a good example.
    To yourself, respect.”
     Oren Arnold

    Tick-tock…I love you All

  343. Lee,
    True so true every word you typed…
    My Viva was full of sarcasm…
    The world is in a very sorry state of affairs…


    Eva is correct…if you are teaching landscape take a good look at Harry Gruyaert and Mark Klett as well , oh and of course the industrial landscapes of Edward Burtynsky might just inspire….by the way, i am not a landscape photographer , but i show landscape photographers to students who want to shoot in the street…opening minds is the main thing as i am sure you know…

    cheers, david

  345. LEE…

    few would argue with your basic premise…however, i do think that WWII did get the U.S. out of an economic crises, set us up for power and prosperity for years to come, AND killed a whole bunch of innocent people..so far in the history of this “civilized” planet, everyone justifies revolution/war that accomplishes their own goals, most of all Americans in the last two centuries…didn’t our very own most vociferous revolutionary Patrick Henry say “Viva La Revolution” or a pretty close paraphrase?? yet, i do agree with you 100%…it is just that none of us has clean hands and the lines drawn are never really clear in the sand…the reason we are losing or will lose the so called “war on terror” is that we just cannot find a way to get that real war machine cranked up the way we could in WWII…building an aircraft carrier and lots of planes and bombs and providing lots of jobs and money into the economy just won’t work…we have no state supported “enemy”….they got us on this one…maybe IF we (U.S.) could figure out a way to fight a traditional war that had wide public support as did WWII, we would …and prosper economically because of it and the innocent lives lost would somehow fade into the background…as usual. The fact that you are living happily in Hawaii and we are great friends with both Japan and Germany now proves your long term point of course…

    cheers, david

  346. PRESTON…

    i totally understand your desire for seeing something “new” in an essay…you and Michael feel the same on this point i think….i guess i just see it differently…not better, just different…i put i suppose way more value on the execution and delivery than i do on the “information”…my appreciation for Danny’s essay (and this should be posted under his essay and not here) and others is their style, talent, visual acuity, feeling for the subject, and well, more simply put, just the way they strum that guitar….ok, yes, i have heard the lyrics to this song before ,but the WAY Danny sings it, makes it a whole new song for me…

    yet, i fully acknowledge that many look at it as do you …the way we photograph is so unique and personal and the way we all view them is no less personal…..

    cheers, david

  347. mw are into a combination of sour grapes and scrambled eggs of late?

    Well, scrambled eggs anyway. My grapes are properly fermented and aged. May have a lot of tannins, but sour? Never.

    Thanks Preston. David.

  348. Lee,
    number one:
    I said Viva La Revolution , not Viva La War…
    and number two: David is right.. America has always prospered from wars ..
    Republicans start the wars and democrats finish them.. True indeed the 2WW created this strong and prosperous America we all know.. That war was the quickest way out of the major depression ..
    Lee, I also agree that any War kills individuals but strenghthens economies and rebuild countries..
    War is a business.. War is a job.. Yes indeed , the most aggressive of all business but that is what really is.. And Wars are not made to be won , wars are made to be continued..
    We need open fires, open wounds and open sores coz that way we are needed and we can sell our guns ..
    Hippies think we lost the Vuetnam war.. Not really.. Coz with that war we installed our presence all around that area.. People rushed to assume that we lost the Iraq war.. Well don’t expect the government to start sending free oil to anyone anytime soon,. No, that oil goes to be stored for later.. We needed to control the area.. We are NOT looking for Bin Laden!!! Oh please, who cares about him.. No, look at the map carefully.. We already got our hands on the Iraqi oil, we rebuilding their country with our own contractors (also see ex Yugoslavia ) and also surrounded Iran.. Yes yes we are circling Iran as we speak..
    Iraq to the left, Afghanistan to the right and Iran in the middle, surrounded ..see?
    But Lee:), yes honestly Wars were always one of the best business ideas throughout mankind history..
    Great Alexander and the Greeks , Romans, Spaniards conquistadores … 2ndWW and on and on…
    Yes, when my grandpa was fighting the Nazis up in the Greek mountains (being a guerrila ) he used to scream “viva la revolution”.. Usually “revolution” expresses the need for liberation..
    (but don’t get me wrong, not Iraqi invasion type of liberation ..nah nah.. Anti-Nazi type , now that is
    a good coz to resist ..isn’t it?)

  349. And my dear Lee what would you do if you were an Athenian or Spartan citizen back when Xerxes and the Persians attacked Greece? Would u just turn the other cheek.. Yes yes I agree that ancient Greeks and Egyptians and all those cultures are a bit overrated but u have to admit that if Leonidas with his 300 (a bit dramatic but u get my point, right?) would think like you and let the Persians to conquer Greece without a fight , then you wouldn’t be living in democracy.. You would still obey to somekind of king, with no ability to vote.. Your voice would not be represented to any parliament..
    Was Democracy a form of Revolution back then???
    Yes it was! Was Ghandi promoting a peaceful Revolution? Yes he did! Did he succeed? Yes he did.. Same as John Lennon .. Now think why CHE had/still has so much appeal to the working class..
    Why?? Ever wondered why?
    Do NOT be afraid of the word Revolution or Liberation.. You wouldn’t be free today if it wasn’t for those who fought to liberate the slaves, for all those suffragettes that started Feminism (revolution) so you can vote today and be considered equal to any man out there ..
    Einstein was also revolution.. So was Galilei etc..
    Please do not demonize the word Revolution..
    Viva La Revolution once again then!

  350. Also since the Greeks invented theater then Hollywood also owes it’s existence to the ancient fighters that resisted upon the Persian invasion..
    Now wars are more sophisticated.. Not always soldiers needed..
    Think of economic pressure.. Think of Embargo( starving the opponents country) as we (US) do to Iran or Cuba or whoever else we want to wear out, for years now..
    Or think of IMF “help” , a new way of enslaving nations putting them into debt..
    Think of Haiti and the debt to France that now transferred to US..
    Haiti is the slave that been traded/sold from the French to the Americans and on and on..
    and yes u guessed it.. Viva La Revolution applies to poor exhausted Haiti too..
    And now it’s my turn to be dramatic and scream;
    “We Shall Overcome”

  351. Talking about strumming guitars, black kids, peace, the US at war and someone who “sung” with his axe like nobody before or since…
    and he was part of one the most pacific revolutions ever…

  352. Journalists and Information War – Who is the enemy. Good question. But a difficult topic.
    For those, who are interested, this may be an interesting literature:

    Product Description: “Journalists Under Fire: Information War and Journalistic Practices is the first book to combine a conceptually audacious analysis of the changing nature of war with an empirically rich critical analysis of journalists who cover conflict. In this book, authors Howard Tumber and Frank Webster explore questions about Information War and journalistic practices. In the era of multi-national journalism, of the Internet and satellite videophone, the book highlights central features of media reporting in contemporary conflict. Drawing on more than fifty lengthy interviews with frontline correspondents, the authors shed light on the motivations, fears, and practices of those who work under conditions of journalism under fire.”

    War seems to be the consequence of our nature. I don’t want to judge about it, but only the innocent die in wars. The not so innocent sit in their offices and give the orders.

    Revolution on the other hand is not necessarily dependant on war or similar things. It mainly describes (drastic) changes.

  353. Panos,
    :)you sound slightly annoyed!!
    So was I this morning when I read Lee´s comment, however I think he meant it refering to the video posted with all the violence and that was the revolution you were asking for.

  354. ALL

    I’m proud to announce the publication of my first book, Nicosia in Dark and White.

    Here is the website of our publishing house, where you can take a look inside:

    Here is the Facebook page that we set up for posting news and some behind-the-scenes pictures of the production process:

    Please note that for every book that we sell through Burn, we’ll be donating 30% of its price back to Burn. Just type “I’m a Burnian” in the “Add special instructions to the seller” when you check out on paypal, or send us an email at bookexmachina@gmail.com

    Please spread the word.


  355. Eva and David,
    I´ll be taking a look at Harry Gruyaert he´s new to me.
    Forgotten Mark Klett and yes the Edward Burtynsky did inspire the kids last week.
    All I need is to get these kids passionate enough to pick their cameras up without it being homework or pretty pictures…I couldn´t care less if isn´t landscape work.

  356. Good job Thodoris…Is Book Ex Machina a local publishing house in Cyprus?
    Is it new? International? Either way, good effort, good cause..
    Good luck to that new publishing house..in Days like this with less and less work in print and more and more work on the web ..little houses needs to be supported.. Good luck!

  357. And yes, Lee is a beautiful lady and exceptional well mannered friend that rarely gets upset..
    Honestly I can’t remember the last time she was upset.. Maybe it was the first time I saw her so upset! Smiling …
    The word “Revolution” is such an emotionally charged word and obviously mean different things to different people.. It means “peace” to Ghandi , “justice” to Malcolm X, “freedom” to CHE, “liberation” to modern Greeks, “murder” to Stalin, “destruction” to Hitler etc..
    Lee , Revolution is a multifaced monster…:)
    Don’t get upset.. Most misunderstandings arise from different meanings and definitions of the same word!

  358. a civilian-mass audience

    THODORIS…I knew it…you were cooking something…
    And the feast is here to enjoy…!!!

    I am spreading the word…i see Greek text too…
    GO Theodoriiiii…

    So many books in my wishing list…PAUL.T,THODORIS
    I just hope… Santa Claus is not from Greece:(


    P.S yeap, LEE is an amazing lady BURNIAN…

  359. Good morning all. I was responding to the stupid video of idiots throwing fire bombs as if that is the way to fix things still. Yes, I understand how war is necessary in some cases. I was even ok with going to Iraq, believe it or not, to get that goon out of power but then I wanted Iraq to fix themselves and us to come back home. And cream and shit both float to the top so shits like Hitler and Saddam need to be taken out.

    I understand on some logical level the need for war until I see the photos of what war does to children and families. I think it is time for a global tribunal that has as much power as war machines like US that drag idiots like Hitler and Saddam before a world court and puts them away.

    Hard season for me; caught me at a vulnerable moment Panos.

  360. Panos,
    You seem to be in much more positive/receptive happy mood lately. I’m sure that’s because your photography is doing well. Wait to you learn to get into the ‘zone’ on your bike, nothing like being strong and fit to feel on top of the world

  361. Harry Gruyaert’s book Rivages is mystical for me. I knew his photography and admired from long time but when I took his book in my hand it was like kick in stomach. Most simple, subtle, sensitive, incredible book of color I’ve ever seen.

  362. Eva…
    Many thanks for believing enough to pre-order the book 4 months before its publication!!!

    Book Ex Machina is a new publishing house started by me and my partner Ioanna Mavrou. Hopefully this is the first of many books to come.

    Thanks for spreading the word…

  363. Marcin, Eva…
    Can’t wait to get home from park with kids…
    Been a long time any landscape work moves me

  364. “Republicans start the wars and democrats finish them”
    Revolutionary War: No Republicans, No Democrats
    Quasi War: Adams was a Federalist (the only Federalist President, actually, but they were the forerunners of the modern Republicans)
    Barbary Wars: Jefferson was a Democratic Republican (forerunner of the modern Democrats)
    War of 1812: Madison was a Democratic Republican.
    Mexican War: Polk was a Democrat
    Civil War: Just electing a Republican was enough to set this one off.
    Spanish American War: McKinley was a Republican
    World War I: Wilson was a Democrat
    World War II: Roosevelt was a Democrat
    Korean War: Truman was a Democrat
    Vietnam: Kennedy and Johnson were both Democrats.
    Gulf War: Bush was a Republican
    Balkans War: Clinton was a Democrat
    Iraq and Afghanistan: Bush was a Republican.

    Score: 9 Democrats, 4 Republicans

  365. Have we not learned war accomplishes nothing? Nope.

    Will we ever evolve? Nope.

    All war does is kill innocent people and never, NEVER, solves the problem. I’d check with the Confederate government about that one. They might have a different view of the matter.

    Oh, and certainly will NOT resolve the economic crisis except to line the pockets of those that arm the revolution. Very true.

  366. I’m retracting my thought about a world tribunal. Very one whose name cannot be spoken kind of scary.

  367. I’m a southern Democrat; think of that in context of the civil war and where Democrats hang on the side of equality. We keep mixing it all up and still try to draw lines.

  368. “Republicans start the wars and democrats finish them”

    Yes, that’s a silly comment.

    However, it is a fool’s game to make comparisons between the political parties of the 18th and 19th centuries to 20th and 21st centuries. 9-4? Don’t be silly.

    Also, Eisenhower and VP Nixon deserve a little more credit than you seem willing to give to the Vietnam “conflict.”

  369. Okay then, if we’re doing this by century, then the late and unlamented 20th century and the 21st scores out at 6-2, or 6-4, if we’re still separating Iraq and Afghanistan. And while Ike and Tricky Dick do deserve a little more credit for involving us more deeply in Indochina, the first committment to French Indochina came in 1950 under Truman, and when the crunch came in 1954 [at which point the US was paying for 80% of the French war effort], Ike refused to send troops or air power to break the siege of Dien Bien Phu. Ike just couldnt see how Western troops could operate in that environment.

  370. Dear Mr. Harvey, David Alan that is..

    would you please please, next time you leave Upper Michigan, close the windows and shut the door?? Many thanks!! Has taken me two hours to pick up one kid at school (who was stuck there for 8 hours after closing).. have another one stuck in Rome.. and another one somewhere between Greece and Italy.. half of the country is paralyzed in snow and ice..

    cheers ;))