David Alan Harvey Photograph © Robert ClarkVISIONS FOR 2009

Just as we cross the seemingly imaginary time line into 2009, the world appears to be in turmoil. We are all wishing each other Happy New Year while  more and more attacks are levied into Palestine, the world financial crisis gets worse by the minute, and our most immediate world of print publishing is in a virtual  state of panic. Most of us are now facing  the biting jaws of winter and spring flowers seem far far away.

Well, we are not in control of any of the above.  We must just do what we can do with our talents and make the most immediate space around us a better place. Since photography is what I seem to do best, and since my role as a photographer has extended into the photographic lives of others as a mentor, I will just do what little  I can here on BURN to push all of you to use your eyes, hearts, and intellect in the most constructive ways. Either as documentary photographers or conceptual artists or whatever category of photography you may identify. Labels tend to be just that…labels.  I do want BURN to have the windows wide open for whatever leading edge photography and writing may come our way.

Many of you may know that BURN is a spinoff of my two year old blog “Road Trips”. This blog/forum was almost  exclusively intended as an online workshop or mentoring program for those who logged on. The essays I have published here so far are indeed works in progress from “Road Trips”  or from my students from the four or five workshops I do every year. My primary goal as a mentor is to lead photographers towards their own books. To become authors. To celebrate the vision of a photographer unfettered by preconceived notions of commercial publishing. Commercial publishing has certainly been the lifeblood for my livelihood and education , yet it has always been the struggle between personal vision and editorial  “needs” that have forced me to light a candle for independence, without biting the very hand that has quite literally fed me.  This is a delicate balance for me and I am sure for most of you.

One of my goals here on BURN is to finance some of you so that this can be a source of income and a room where you can grow. In a downsliding economy , this may be difficult for me. OR the timing is just right.  As advertisers flee the traditional print media, they are looking for content on the web.  While their budgets are down, we here on BURN would only need a very small piece of the old pie to rock n’ roll right off the proverbial charts.  Why not have sponsors directly finance a photographer for a specific body of work??  The idea is not to  give funding to BURN, but to give  in the form of stipends or grants funds  directly to the photographer.

This may prove to be a silly dream. This may be a new wave to ride.

To kick things off, and to prove to you and to  potential sponsors that I am serious, I now announce on this New Years Day  the Emerging Photographer Fund grant for 2009.

A $10,000 grant will be given in a few weeks to one of you.
Any  photographer anywhere in the world is eligible.

Generous private donors, who have believed in me and my mentoring programs have provided this funding for you, the readers/photographers  of BURN.  They are able to donate tax exempt funds into the Magnum Cultural Foundation, a non-profit wing of Magnum Inc.  Inside this umbrella of the MCF, I created in 2008 the Emerging Photographer Fund and was able to give a $5,000 grant last year to Sean Gallagher for his continued work on the desertification of China. I am still holding funds for additional stipends.

I will not be on the jury. I will choose the jury from the best talents I can find.  One of the jury will be from Magnum, but I want to cast a wide net. For example, James Nachtwey from VII will be one of the jury. This will be a five person jury representing the magazine world, the art gallery world and the book publishing world. Details for entering , jury selection , and deadlines for entry  will be posted under “Emerging Photographer Fund” in the column immediately to the upper right.

Some of you know that in the last two years I have developed strong online friends based on “Road Trips”. I mentored several books with these friends. Turned online friends into “persona a persona” relationships and have in general tried to take online into “the real world”. While the early essays on BURN do represent the relationships built from “Road Trips”, the door is wide open to anyone reading now or to anyone in the future who so desires to submit work here or become part of my editing/mentoring world.  Like any magazine editor, I will have some photographers I know and develop and collaborate with and yet keep my eyes  open for new talent at all times and from any direction.

Simultaneous with this New Year’s story , I present now (below) the work of Patricia Lay -Dorsey. She is one of my online prodigies.  We have met in person during the year, but most of our collaboration has been online…Patricia is not a professional photographer. Patricia has had multiple sclerosis for 20 years and before she discovered photography she was obsessed with being a painter. Patricia does not aspire to become a magazine photojournalist, yet she is every bit as brave as iconic war photographer  James Nachtwey. He would be the first to say so.

Patricia is a free spirit in the best sense.  We have wrangled, scrambled and collaborated in the most amazing ways. Please appreciate Patricia, and then let Patricia appreciate you in the future.

Please stay tuned…..2009 could turn out just fine after all….

Cheers, David

288 thoughts on “visions for 2009”

  1. Mr. Harvey, the world is always in turmoil; this gives it something to do and keeps it off the street.
    The Middle East is always in crisis; it would hardly know what to do with itself if it wasn’t in crisis. Money is always hard to get if you don’t have any, the difference these days being that while banks didn’t want to loan you money back in the day, now they don’t want to loan each other money. As for the print biz going belly up, well, you’d know more about that than I would, but businesses are always going belly up for one reason or another. Livery stable owners were positive that automobiles were just a passing fad and back in July I thought that they might have been right about that, after all. So disasters are with us always, I fear.

    As for the New Year, well, New Year’s has always struck me a particularly phony holiday, since you can pick any day of the year to serve as your calendrical starting point; there’s nothing special about January 1st. For a very long time March 25th was New Year’s Day, that day being the feast of the Annunciation, or Lady Day, as the people of the Middle Ages called it. For the non-Christians hereabouts, merely add nine months to the date in order to discover its theological significance. Then there’s the other new year’s days celebrated hereabouts; Chinese New Year’s is in February, Rosh ha-Shonah is in September, the Islamic New Year is in December this year, the Celtic New Year is on November 1st, and the fiscal new year of the egregious mold pit wherein I labor for my daily bread starts on July 1st. Clearly, there is nothing sacrosanct about January 1st; it is simply an arbitrary date Pope Gregory the whatever his Roman numeral was picked arbitrarily in 15something or other to denote that the Earth had passed an arbitrary point in space and that all of us were now one year closer to death.

    Why January 1st? Pope Gregory the choose the Roman numeral of your choice picked the date because the day was the start of the old Roman new year, the feast day of the god of beginnings, Janus, whom the ancients usually represent as having two faces, one facing forward towards the future and the other backwards towards the police, and what Renaissance man could pass up the chance of rescuing the old Roman new year from the mythological dustbin and giving the date a fresh new coat of paint and the chance for a comeback? Of course, the bit about Janus’s two faces is a bit of mythological poetic license at best; Janus was the used chariot dealer to the gods, having snapped up the used chariot concession for a song when every banker in Greece said that investing in Olympian business opportunities was flushing money down a rat hole. Janus got the concession from Jupiter, the king of the gods, in a moment of Jovian weakness; Janus had a private eye and a team of paparazzi to trail Jupiter as he went about his divine duties and, lo and behold, they got some good photos of the king of the gods cavorting and canoodling with some hot Greek babes on the French Riviera. In exchange for the photos and a free hand in the used chariot business, Janus promised not to tell Jupiter’s wife, Hera, about his somewhat less than divine leisure activities.

    The used chariot business has gone about as well as you might expect. Janus did get himself in some small degree of trouble when he sold a slightly used Mercedes Benz to Apollo and the thing turned out to be a repainted Buick Skylark with 300,000 miles on the odometer and a faulty transmission, or would have had 300,000 miles on the odometer if Janus hadn’t turned the mileage back. This led to some major problems when Apollo tried to drive his new chariot of the sun across the sky; the engine kept overheating, appropriately enough, and then Apollo lost control of the chariot for a couple of seconds, thereby scorching all of North Africa pretty thoroughly and creating what is now the Sahara Desert. Worse yet, Apollo couldn’t get his money back; all sales with Janus are final, something that led to the first lemon law in the history of Mount Olympus, an event made possible by Hera’s reading about Jupiter’s escapades on the Riviera in a cover story in The National Enquirer, a story that came complete with explicit photos of the aforementioned cavorting and canoodling, all suitably airbrushed for publication in a family newspaper. Jupiter promptly hit the untrustworthy paparazzi with thunderbolts for their effrontery and Janus had to end some of his more egregious sales practices, which he didn’t like but could do nothing about; you really can’t blackmail someone if their wife already knows about about the other woman, after all.

    Personally, I am all for moving New Year’s Day back to March 25th. That way anyone who feels they didn’t get sufficiently crocked on St. Patrick’s Day can have another go at it before the week is out. The weather is usually, although not always, better at the end of March. There is no guarantee, of course; warm St. Patrick’s Days are a hit and miss affair at best, but even this is an improvement over having the New Year fall in the dead of winter. Maybe if we could move the day to April 1st that might solve our problem with the day; we could all play tricks on one another for April Fools Day while we get drunk celebrating the New Year. I don’t think that’s going to happen, though; too many people have a vested interest in January 1st nowadays for anyone to move the New Year to some other date. That’s a shame, really.

  2. 2009 could turn out just fine after all….

    I do not know about destiny, but I know about ACTITUDE. And that is something that is in our hand. The “crossing” of that imaginary time line may not mean anything as today is just a day as it was yesterday, but beginnings always come with hope. And hope and dreams fill our will and, if we work on it, if we work on our actitudes, we will make it.

    Lets do it!

    Peace and magic


    PD- Thank you, David for making the EPF a reality. That’s hope for all of us!

  3. a more beautiful vision for the world and future and 2009 i cannot imagine….

    to celebrate this passing world….if only someday the entirety of our species, each of us, finally gets that….

    still without most of my voice ;)), but so happy for you and photography and burn….


  4. Happy NEW Year to all..
    and thank you David..
    for your vision,
    and your love of photography~
    which we all embrace….


  5. David, my mentor, my friend,

    I love your vision for 2009 and I can say from personal experience that you live that vision of peace & inclusion in every encounter you make. From mentoring an aging “emerging” photog like me, to celebrating & becoming a lifelong friend of Hip Hop artist Ruckus, to “adopting’ our talented brother Panos and supporting his vision & amazing vitality, you walk through life sowing seeds of love, creative zeal and artistic excellence wherever you go.

    After collaborating with you on preparing my essay for inclusion here on BURN, I also know you are mighty patient, forgiving and tolerant of the idiosyncrasies of non-professional photographers like me. I was NOT easy to work with and I thank you and Anton for not giving up on me during those crazy days that I changed my edit with every breath!

    Speaking of how difficult I am to work with, David, could you please call me at your earliest convenience? And just ignore my recent emails. Thanks.

    I am humbled by your posting my essay here on BURN and introducing it in the way you did. You, my friend, are THE BEST! I look forward to our ongoing collaboration on this project. It would never be where it is today had it not been for your ongoing support, critiques, edits and encouragement. If a book does come out of this project, you will have been the one who dreamed it into being.


  6. Oh David. you are so good. i know you’re also bad, but not where it counts.
    You’re one of the most sincerely generous people i’ve ever met and man how you inspire electronically.
    How effective is that.

    Burn is just great. It’s going down in history.

    love, anne

  7. DAVID.
    Way to start the year off right! You go…..and we will come along with you.
    Always raising our standards to meet you THERE.
    Looking forward to a great 2009.

  8. David

    Didn’t you said that you have one person with grant a few month ago? I wish to know who “she” is :)

    I never expected when we “meet” first time that this place will be so valuable (valuable in many ways).
    Good luck.

    I wish the grant to many of you. There is so many extraordinary photographers who should be highlighted that or other way.
    So good luck, many frames and many pleasure with camera in hand.

  9. Is peculiar. Where I live, when we refer in the professional life that some photographer is burned -quemado-, we mean that he or she can’t do something appart of the editorial needs or clichés. Is like he or she solds his or her soul to the devil and have not anymore a personal vision. A few days ago, i found thanks to a post in lightstalkers this site. And is peculiar that here i found some fresh images. Now i want to be burned for the spirit of this space, in this sense that is new for me. So thanks and yes, 2009 could be fine after all.

  10. To all at Burn,

    This is an example that when people are moved towards a goal, and really have passion into it…things happen! This is the most importante lesson I’ve learn so far with Road Trip and Burn. It may seem to you all as a small thing, but where I came from people talk a lot about the state of the business but don’t do much (not to say nothing) to change it. There are great ideas and oportunities around the corner, it’s up to us to grab and feed them…or not.

    My congratulations to all behind and in this project. So far, I’m devoring all the essays and photos posted here. They are great lessons about not only photography but life itself.

    To you David, a source of inspiration and perseverance in these troubled days we’re all living in some way or another. Please don’t ever chage the way you face life and live it.

  11. DAVID,

    Happy new year for 2009 David and let’s hope that all our collective dreams for BURN come to fruition. You certainly have an exciting vision and I know that there is even more to it than finding grants for photographers… There are dreamers in this world but you also have some that implement a vision, do the hard work, stay committed with their time, passion and energy. Those turn the vision into reality and make things happen. You are certainly of the last type. There are also others like Anton, Mike, well so many that you have gathered around you and who not only want to dream but also realize big things. The amazing part of it is that you are doing this for helping other photographers, mentoring them towards books etc. I never stop to be amazed by your generosity and availability for us all. It is a real priviledge to be part of this BURN adventure and I will continue to contribute to the extend that I can. Exciting!

    Happy 2009 to all! Off in a couple of hours to go to Silver Gloves boxing tournament for below 15 years old in Ohio… Need to drive for about 3 1/2 hours to get there…. This thing never stops…. You are putting us all on the Road my friend!!!!


  12. Just want to take a moment to say thank you for the initial idea for us to work toward something specific in a particular timeframe..it sounds obvious now, but having the goal of a completed project really did push me along. Granted, now I feel like it will never be finished and I have only scratched the surface, but at least I am underway in a direction that has evolved because of this process.

    Wishing a very beautiful year to all..if you are interested in horoscopes and are an artist, check out the ever intelligent and insightful words of Leigh Oswald at http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/horoscope/horoscope.asp

  13. David!

    Man of sound thoughts and good words you are, but that alone would not mean much if you were not above all a man of deeds, one who makes a lasting difference, in the life of those fortunate enough to have crossed your path, in person, or on the web. Once again, best of health to you, and good luck to the EPF entries.

  14. DAH,
    “…To celebrate the vision of a photographer unfettered by preconceived notions of commercial publishing. ”

    THANKS for the reminder !

  15. Happy new year David, was very happy to hear your voice :) The magazine looks very sharp ;) my congratulations!
    Happy new year to everyone! Chinese symbol of which either plows heavily, chews lazily or throws its horns left and right. im wishing everyone to overcome all the difficult turns of the coming year as smoothly as possible. but arent they all difficult turns anyway? arent we all: druids, chinese, julians and grigorians, muslims just trying hard to get through the twists of life each of us in our own way? i guess i can extend my wishes for another lifetime :) thank you, David for staying around to support :)

  16. Happy New Year to all! I already exposed my first roll of film in 2009… This will be the year of hard work, but with lots of satisfaction. Looking fwd to that and wish you all the same! Veba

  17. David,
    How about multimedia pieces, not just a slideshow but something that we already format in Final Cut or as a Quicktime movie or similar? Is there going to be a way to submit that kind of work?
    Wish you all the best again.

  18. with regards to Burn, 2008: ‘Alea iacta est’ and ironically David Alan Harvey, you do have a suspiciously Caesar-esque look to you in that image above ;-)

    i suspect there are some more ironic but bold similarities between these two leaders in store for 2009, and even more thereafter.

    EVERYONE! Thank you for making it so incredibly easy for me to participate in this already established and already healthy community; it’s a wonderful place to invest thought and share ideas.

    Bring on 2009!

  19. velibor, lassal,

    this is perfectly possible… if selected for an essay, we will give you details for a “regular” slideshow (with or without music), or for a full multimedia piece. only difference is that a quicktime mm piece will not be able to go fullscreen, as opposed to the slideshows now. if you want to experiment, tech specs will be: Quicktime .mov with H.264 encoding (high or highest qualtiy), or Flash .flv file with On2 VP6 encoding (high quality, 700K/sec); dimensions: 800px wide.


  20. Anton, thanks for the info!

    I think that for me the right timing for different voice overs might be more important than a full screen mode. I noticed that Safari / Firefox etc, have different interpretations about how long a second is supposed to last. This could get me into trouble with my voice overs that do have to pop in at the right time.
    I will experiment with the parameters. Never done something like this before but … well … time to learn! :)

    BTW my brother lives there and next time I visit him, I would like to invite you for a coffee, so that we both finally meet, as it did not work out in Perpignan last year. Maybe Eric could join in if he is there already?!

    Would be so nice to meet you!

    Good night Brussels,

  21. Joe
    that in fact is the only latin I still seem to remember … Thanks to the unfortunate pirates. :)
    Hope we have more luck than them.

  22. Thanks David, and a happy new year to you! Been busy lately with the day job so haven`t been able to participate much (not that i ever did) but this new magazine continues to inspire and motivate just the way Road Trips did. Am an avid follower and I have loved the essays so far, especially Patricia`s which was so moving. All the best for 2009, strength to strength, bigger and brighter. This feels like a lucky year inspite of everything.

  23. this place just breeds good Kharma Lassal ;-)

    i’ve painfully witnessed someone try to do something only half as ambitious as Burn for far over a year now, and since that individual is still struggling to get out of the parking lot it makes you wonder what this place will look like in a year considering it’s existence can still be measured in days.

    The future seems very appealing.

  24. Thank you so much for giving photographers an opportunity like this, David. I was turned onto this site by George Steinmetz and I am so happy he lead me here. I am 17 years old and I am obsessed with photography; I am constantly exploring photography sites and magazines for inspiration. There are hundreds of photography sites, but none are like this. The essays I see on burn. all possess the qualities that inspired me to start taking photographs of my own years ago and have inspired me to start a photo essay of my own. This is real photography. This is what I hope I will be able to create some day.

  25. mr harvey, i learned of your site from stephen alvarez’s site. youre the inspiration ive been searching for. coincidentally, ive thought of doing self=portraits because i have a fear of the camera aimed at my face, but seeing patricia’s work has given me such a strong surge of inspiration and courage because that woman is talented and beautiful. her disABILITY is a part of her inner beauty and peace.


  26. Hey there Anton, BIG Congrats on ‘Sugar’ BTW! You sure grew up overnight ‘lil bro!

    Question about the multimedia, if I wanted to put something together with HDV (which is broadcast standard) wouldn’t the mixture of stills and video be a bit hefty for the site unless I sized it down tremendously?

    The project I was working on for about eight months last year will have a couple of different manifestations when its complete (sigh, funding pending of course) but I would love to somehow run it here at some point if David allows but I am not sure whether the site will have the space for it.

    Will burn be able to host fairly big files?

  27. hey lisa!

    happy new year to you… and thanks for the word about sugar :-)

    any kind of multimedia is no problem: the main thing is, you’ll always also have to provide an 800px wide resized version, so we can have the “standard integrated” version that plays within the site frame. besides that, we can host/link to any higher res version we want… just as long as it’s quicktime :-)

    practically speaking, we cannot host full HDV resolution just yet – well, we could technically, but – right now this would just be too expensive to host (QT streaming server, bandwidth cost through the roof, bla bla you know…).
    this might/will change very soon when we find the right partners to work with… so as soon as $$ permits, super hi-quality full screen MM projects can be presented on BURN. but it just ain’t cheap…

    so, for the time being, the “middle ground” (800px wide) is what we’ll be using. and i’m hoping this “for the time being” will be very short :)

    tech: a well exported quicktime mov, coded with H.264. or a flash flv, coded with On2 VP6. both standards you should be able to export easily from final cut or from any other pro editing platform


  28. hey joe,

    good words. i had more the feeling of

    caesar, morituri te salutant

    in the arena. fighting, showing off, in front of thousands of onlookers. thumbs up and thumbs down everywhere.

    glad there are more thumbs up than down.

    happy new year to you.



    please have a look here: http://www.harpofoundation.org/info.html

    It is a foundation that gives grants to non-profit institutions that support under recognized artists. This applies to all artists whether emerging or further along in their careers. From how I understand it, photographers could be included there.

    Deadline April1, 2009.

  30. Tyler Gavett, welcome to the fold. You articulate yourself well for someone so young. You are off to a flying start, I think. I look forward to seeing your work at some point.

    Thanks David yet again for your enormous generosity. Your efforts have brought together a wonderful and diverse community of insightful image makers. What a beautiful achievement.

    Continued good health and appetites to you and yours for this new year, Mr. Harvey.


  31. TYLER….

    welcome….you are at exactly the right age to really allow yourself to develop into an accomplished photographer…the most important thing for you to remember is never never let your enthusiasm wan…you should do whatever you have to do to keep the fire in your gut…i can attribute my “luck” in photography to only one thing…when i get out of bed in the morning, i feel the same sense of exhilaration for photography as i did when i first started to explore the world with my camera as a teenager…maybe even more now than ever…and “my world” is the world just across the room or the other side of the planet..one not better than the other…

    please give my wormest regards to George Steinmetz if you see him before do i….i hope to publish some of his work here soonest, and hopefully yours as well…

    cheers, david

  32. When I get out of bed in the morning, I feel the overwhelming need to get back into bed and turn out the lights that I felt when I went to bed the night before.

  33. When I get out of bed in the morning, I feel the same overwhelming need to get back into bed and turn out the lights that I felt when I went to bed the night before.

  34. DAVID …

    the good thing about restarting something is, that you can think it over. So the new version of ASW will have a multimedia part for the web which will go much further than the simple mouseover-text that I have now on the site. It will be made especially for the web – to compensate for the disadvantages of showing only small pictures. So every person I “portrait” now become a much more complex sub-project. By doing this and some other alterations I might really, really manage to get what I long for. So I am very excited! EXTREMELY excited.

    It just will take me a while. I have never done anything of what I will be doing now. But at least I found musicians who want to compose especifically for the project! Imagine how lucky I feel because this solves all kind of copyright problems. I am looking for very specific sounds and I am positive they can come up with it.

    I will send you a description of the new ASW soon via eMail. I would love to submitt this for EPF, but … it is just a concept. And when I get to do the portraits/interviews, I will have to work through all kind of software I have never even heard of for editing. It is just not a “simple” portrait-foto project anymore. Although there will be this version later for print. I will be editing very differently regarding to purpose. I am very excited to do that.

    But as this is my very first time to ever do something the like … and I do not know anybody whom I could ask for advise … It will be try&error until I get it right. No weekend job.

    I bought some Magnum in Motion DVDs lately … Actually they gave me the idea of expanding ASW in direction MM … They just opened a door in my mind.

  35. AKAKY…


    i think some of us need to take the time to get you your own show…there is more money in comedy than there is in photography…you would be a wealthy man!!

    cheers, david

  36. last night, early in the late night, i walked around my neighborhood to pick up some mint chocolate for Marina…fresh slow like the downy pillow i remember from my grandmother’s bed, almost no footsteps by my own, and i find myself a child….slipping past the steps that had become my own, for once a small rabbit or obdurate raccoon, another a slippery giant, another remembering the cadence of my wife and son and then, i thought of an early poem of Auden….and while the world tilted and tossed around me, as silent as the drip of a faucet, i thought, ok, new year, i shall sing it upon burn…..sometimes, though in my saddened hunger to always make anew, especially the rhyme, this more then ever makes sense to me as a vision, not only for 2009 but for the entire buckling walks of our late-night snowy walks….

    running, daft

    As I Walked Out One Evening
    by W. H. Auden

    As I walked out one evening,
    Walking down Bristol Street,
    The crowds upon the pavement
    Were fields of harvest wheat.

    And down by the brimming river
    I heard a lover sing
    Under an arch of the railway:
    ‘Love has no ending.

    ‘I’ll love you, dear, I’ll love you
    Till China and Africa meet,
    And the river jumps over the mountain
    And the salmon sing in the street,

    ‘I’ll love you till the ocean
    Is folded and hung up to dry
    And the seven stars go squawking
    Like geese about the sky.

    ‘The years shall run like rabbits,
    For in my arms I hold
    The Flower of the Ages,
    And the first love of the world.’

    But all the clocks in the city
    Began to whirr and chime:
    ‘O let not Time deceive you,
    You cannot conquer Time.

    ‘In the burrows of the Nightmare
    Where Justice naked is,
    Time watches from the shadow
    And coughs when you would kiss.

    ‘In headaches and in worry
    Vaguely life leaks away,
    And Time will have his fancy
    To-morrow or to-day.

    ‘Into many a green valley
    Drifts the appalling snow;
    Time breaks the threaded dances
    And the diver’s brilliant bow.

    ‘O plunge your hands in water,
    Plunge them in up to the wrist;
    Stare, stare in the basin
    And wonder what you’ve missed.

    ‘The glacier knocks in the cupboard,
    The desert sighs in the bed,
    And the crack in the tea-cup opens
    A lane to the land of the dead.

    ‘Where the beggars raffle the banknotes
    And the Giant is enchanting to Jack,
    And the Lily-white Boy is a Roarer,
    And Jill goes down on her back.

    ‘O look, look in the mirror,
    O look in your distress:
    Life remains a blessing
    Although you cannot bless.

    ‘O stand, stand at the window
    As the tears scald and start;
    You shall love your crooked neighbour
    With your crooked heart.’

    It was late, late in the evening,
    The lovers they were gone;
    The clocks had ceased their chiming,
    And the deep river ran on.

  37. DAVID, ALL..

    indeed the burning glow of this collaboration is a beacon in the oft tumultuous and disconcerting waters of the photographic seas; a galvanization of inspired efforts and thoughts; a synergy that nourishes and incites purposeful propulsion for each of our visions and endeavors.

    you know what i’m sayin. here’s to a kick-ass 2009.


  38. David and all my friends,

    Happy New Year and Wish all happness!
    I really recognize ‘David’s Noble spiits of Photographand Photographers’ very well.
    I will do my best to learn and come true this valuale spirits on ‘Burn’.

    Tahnk you,
    Kyunghee Lee

    p.s. David, I have sent an e-mail just now.

  39. purposeful propulsion?

    What alliteratively elegant locution, my friend.

    Best wishes to all for a new year, a new beginning…may she be a damn site better than the last one, as they say…

  40. LASSAL,

    Would love to see each other in Brussels with Anton. Keep me posted. I should be commuting for a few months between the US and Belgium as of March 1. Will probably be there the first couple of weeks of March. Anyway. let;s figure this out and let’s meet :):):).



  41. you all make me smile… though Akaky makes me truly laugh. i love this place. David – thank you for bringing us all together. to a wonderful 2009.

  42. Yes, purposeful perpetual propulsion propels purplish perp porpoises perpendicularly to the pokey…perhaps

  43. Thanks, but no thanks. I wouldn’t be any good at it. I don’t know how to make other people laugh-I only know how to amuse myself and if other people find that funny, well, so much the better. Delivering laughs on an industrial scale, that’s a little beyond me, I think.

  44. I’m sorry, but Akaky doesn’t do anything for me. I don’t like his pictures–they are hopelessly amateurish and not really about anything at all–and he’s longwinded to the nth degree. Bobblack is longwinded too, but at least he has something to say; Akaky just goes off on these stupid proloned rants of his that have absolutely nothing to do with what everyone else here is talking about. I know that DAH won’t ban anyone from the site, but I think someone should take the time to let Akaky know privately that his contributions, such as they are, are not wanted and would he kindly take his low sense of humor to Uncyclopedia or some other site where I am sure it will be appreciated more than it is here. That’s just my opinion.

    AKAKY: So, what do you think?

    AKAKY IRL: I think he should go blow his opinion out his fat ass. How about you?

    AKAKY: Ditto.

  45. Akaky IRL: it’s a ruse, i aint got nothing to say, believe me…it’s all long-windedness…those years behind the deli counter cutting cold cuts no one wanted…by the way, dont talk about my dad’s ass like that….mom said it was the think she best remembered about him….i inherited it too….

    your nephew,

  46. Sis Lisa :))

    yea, the surprises keep coming and coming with daddy ;)))…i wonder what else is in that deep, dark and dank closet ;))




    Hi charles…just saw your note now, sorry yesterday i was looking/writing at the new pics…and my heads wobbly from the flu……will write you this afternoon :)))

    hope u r doing well and warmer than here in TO…


  48. Hope its a good year for everyone. Starting off well with a trip to new york for a week day after tommorow to visit some very talented young photographers that i know and give them their presents and a bit of a bollocking for daring to be young and talented while i go grey and blind. Anyone around wanna buy an old guy a coffee please feel free.
    P.S If any of you are in with the local Gods can you have a word and make it snow for when i get there.

  49. David

    From September thru mid December my apartment was being rebuilt literally around my ears as I desparately tried to focus on churning out the translation work that pays my rent (sometimes)… in all the tumult and disruption I lost your cell phone number… could you please email it to me at: satkins@telcomplus.net ? If you are indeed headed to the Pacific Northwest in the near to mid future, we should talk well in advance of that. I think I have lined up a very interesting family in a stunning locale for your “Family Drive” project but need to establish some kind of vaguely tentative time frame for them and for me…
    Alternatively, if you can only make it as far as Seattle, I need to plan on meeting you there. So let’s talk “soonest”…



  50. SIDNEY….

    many thanks in advance for helping with my family project….i will e-mail uou my number…in the meantime, wishing you all best and i look forward to seeing you soonest…

    cheers, david

  51. LANCE…

    have you been hanging out with Akaky??? in any case, i look forward to your good spirit in 2009…AND some of your work…we need to talk soonest persona a persona…i am back in New York on the 12th i think…so i hope we can talk by phone soon thereafter..between now and then i will be shooting in Texas, but not near you..

    working towards some assignment work here as you may imagine..you are on my mind…

    cheers, david

  52. David,

    I have been missing out on hearing all your adventures, thoughts and advice whilst in China as your road trips blog was for some reason censored by the powers that be. I’m so glad to be back in touch and have access to your invaluable advice, comments and insight. I have been looking around the site and it looks superb and is definitely something I will be telling all other photography friends to come and check out. I have just completed my MA in China (www.photoma.org) and will also ask the tutors to feature this website on the blog as I think it’s an excellent resource and source of inspiration. I look forward to 2009 and all it brings and keeping more up to date with Burn.

    Take care

    Peter (from Seoul, Rafal’s friend)


    hey Rafal , i see nothing from you in e-mail (davidalanharvey@aol.com)…if you want to submit your essay you should just use the submissions box here…that is the only way i can view work..


    nice to hear from you….i really enjoyed our conversations in Seoul…wishing we meet again at some point….

    cheers, david

  54. Maybe it is because of where I am with my project ie where I am in my head heart (swirling striving suffocating surviving soaring all at once), but I am am feeling like I wish that there were a general place on burn to write about the day to day stuff that pulls and pushes..

  55. i didn’t know it until you articulated it, erica, but i am missing that too.
    a general place where we could just talk about our work or whatever arises would be wonderful.
    that feels like the only thing missing.

  56. Erica;

    At the risk of seeming like the “sad face at the party”, I agree with you.

    One thing I really enjoyed about the old “Road Trips” was the ability to be able to get feedback/help/direction (not only from David, but from everyone) on projects and the general “trying to keep your head above water in the photo business!” type of topics.

    I absolutely LOVE “Burn” and hope nobody thinks that I am criticising it, because I’m not.

    If “Dialogue” is the new Road Trip then no worries, just disregard my ramblings!! It may just be that it’s the holiday season, or everyone is busy enjoying this site and haven’t got around to posting these types of subjects.

    I hope everyone has a successful and inspirational 2009.

  57. David,

    One day, time ago in San Miguel Mexico, we talked about the importance of making photography something fun, with a legacy to anyone who wanted to continue creating…

    Thank you for keep in that track, during that workshop you did share a lot of your experience and vision with all of us attendants, it did make a print on my self.

    I am here, to stay…

    Juan Sors


    “Dialogue” (right here) is supposed to be the place for general conversation and replace “road trips”…but, it seems everyone prefers to chat about the photo of the day…perhaps i missed something, but i have not read any questions or conversation starters or seen any links from any of the three of you..i do not think i have ever failed to answer a question from any of you, nor failed to review work you presented…right/wrong??

    i think “work in progress” (which i just have not had time to start up) will be the place for 4 or 5 photographers at a time to have stories in development…this should get going in the next two weeks…

    please please take the conversation any way you want…and i will do some conversation starter posts as well…editing the essays and choosing the picture of the day is , trust me, a full time part time job in and of itself, so we will have to see how that all plays out…in this regard mis amigos, i have not seen any submissions of work from any of the three of you…right/ wrong?? i would be very pleased to publish all three…..

    cheers, david

  59. David;

    No worries, I was just checking whether Dialogue was the old “Road trips”, no criticism at all!! I greatly appreciate all the critiques and advice you’ve freely given..

    I have flicked an image off to you for the single image, but am working on a project in my spare time, that is starting to pay dividends. Best thing it’s all around me and I can work on it anywhere.As they say in cricket- I just want to get a few runs on the board first!! I don’t want to tempt fate by talking too much about it…

    As always I’m pretty much head down, bum up getting in and finishing work. As I mentioned a while ago that magazine closure knocked things around a bit, so travel to Timor is delayed to the middle of the year.

    That’s the problem with having a really good client; you can have too many eggs in one basket. And when the arse end falls out of the basket; well I’m sure you know what I mean!!

    The only problem is that it feels like I’m sort of “cheating on the missus” by pursuing another project, even though it’s not at the expense of the Timor project.

    Cheers for now..

  60. David,

    i think it could be because a question of site design… i think the category Dialogue it’s a kind of “hidden”… maybe if the main page could be redesigned to focus one entry from each category… maybe could work. well but unfortunately i know that people always prefer to post posts of bla bla bla bla in the others photos.

    al the best for 2009!

    p.s. i know very well this plataform “wordpress”, so if the team who put this site up need some kind of “help”, i’m here to put my hands on work too.

  61. DAVID

    I ma not sure it is possible but I just wonder; this platform is on wordpress, so maybe the participants could logging and start own discussions or topics, ask questions as a separate thread? without taking your time.
    I liked in old “road trips” that we could talk about many things, show links etc. This is difficuld to do under someones picture.
    I agree that “dialogue” is little… dead.

  62. Abele wrote under another thread:

    “My feeling is that, for the time being, burn looks more like a gallery open to the public, whereas ‘road trips’ looked like a family’s living room, where you can talk more freely because you know that you will not misunderstood (due to the shared contest).”

    I think he’s identified what I was feeling but had not yet named. To be honest, even if we used Dialogue as a place to simply share our news & feelings, I’d feel a bit reluctant to speak from the heart here. Even though Road Trips was as open to the web world as Burn, somehow it felt more safe there. Of course we had our own issues, but they were “within the family” so to speak.

    Burn has flung the doors wide open–which is EXACTLY what we’d hoped would happen–but that means words that we post here can show up in not-so-respectful ways on other blogs. That’s what I discovered had happened to a heartfelt comment I’d posted here recently: it was lifted and made fun of elsewhere on the web. Guess that’s one of the down sides of the wonderful openness of the web world but it left me feeling a bit violated.

    Anyway, let’s try not to lose the close bonds we’d forged on Road Trips. At the same time let’s do everything we can to welcome EVERYONE to the party. No “in group” or “out group” here; everyone treated with respect and acceptance.

    Burn REALLY is burning!


  63. MARCIN…

    maybe that is a good idea…please give me some time to think about that one…i will be spending a lot of time on BURN in the next months in any case, so it is more a matter of how i spend it…but, i do not quite understand why you cannot do whatever you want to do right here under ‘Dialogue”…i mean it is wide open, easy to find space, and a place where i look very carefully at comments..as i did this one…

    is it possible that we do not have much discussion going here just because i have not done what i always did with “road trips” which was based on me asking a question??? honestly , i think that is it….and that is just based on the holiday season and me being with my family..AND, of course, the scramble in starting BURN three days before Christmas!!! that was a crazy idea anyway!!!

    Marcin, my friend, i want to make this work out so that certainly my original community thrives as always….you and Katia and Erica are certainly part of that valued community…as online friends i only ask you,as i would any friend, to just have a little patience while i get things more organized…i am sure there will always be something not quite right, but that might just be the nature of being….or, the nature of my being!!!

    you also mentioned yesterday i think that you saw a difference between Larry Towell (who you said shot “old style”) and someone like Jonas or Mikael….i see a difference between Larry and Mark Power or Larry and Antoine, but i do see Larry in pretty much the same genre as Jonas…not exactly the same of course, but certainly Larry, Mikael and Jonas share a very straightforward journalistic approach to subject matter…

    are you sure you are not confusing subject matter with style??? Larry shooting Mennonites or his family at home, might give you a feeling of “old style” just based on his subjects..do you think his Palestinian pictures look as “old style” as his Mennonite pictures???? certainly shot at the same time (more or less)….anyway, just a thought…

    hey my friend, when do we see an edit of Thailand?? you can link right here or wait for “work in progress” to open up…right here is just fine….

    as always, wishing you and your bride all good health and good spirit….

    cheers, david


    yes, yes..i am thinking…i hope you read my response to Marcin….maybe Dialogue is too hidden…but the way to make it more obvious would require me killing the design we have…and then we would look like all the other websites with little pictures etc etc…i do want to avoid that if possible…anyway, we are all still talking about this, and i am open to suggestions of course…let me try “Dialogue” as is for a bit longer and i think if i just start posting here, which i have not really done, then we will boost our old chat line….i will never be able to quite go down the chat road as i did on “road trips”….there is only so much of me to go around…i am trying to raise funding (in a crashing economy!!) so that i can quite literally give assignments to produce original material for BURN …and editing and viewing all of the essay and singles takes way more time than you may imagine…or i imagined!!!

    cheers, david

  65. PATRICIA..

    yes, yes…you have touched on it…and yet and yet, nothing that is creative in nature LASTS…it is not supposed to last…creative energy ends up with a result, but that result must by definition move and evolve…on “road trips” we developed over time “Falling Into Place”….but by having BURN you were actually able to SHOW it….i do not think on “road trips” there was any actual venue for photographs, but “road trips” did lead us to BURN and BURN will lead us to, hmmmmm a print magazine for example…who knows???…on “road trips” there was lots of chat, not much actual photography (except on links)…but, as i just said to Marcin, i have not even tried to set up a discussion here yet…all comments on BURN have mostly been related to displayed work….i will bet you that i can fire up Dialogue in about two minutes…as soon as i find those two minutes i will do it!!!

    as usual Patricia, many thanks for your insights…oh oh my, i forget to mention to you…yesterday i was up on the NINTH FLOOR of National Geographic with all of the top editors…there were positive references to our BURN…most particularly Chris Johns , Editor of the Magazine, was taken by your essay….now THAT did not happen on “road trips”..

    cheers, david

  66. DAH

    Under Dialogue could there be ‘Road Trips 1/2009’, ‘Road Trips 2/2009’ or something like that? Don’t change the burn format, just have a place that is just for chat, started anew every month so it doesn’t get too long? The thing about ‘visions for 2009’, it seemed to be specific to the topic, as was ‘how do we finance burn?’

    For me it isn’t a question of not yet submitting work to be shown, I am still shooting :) every day for this..and will work until the last moment I think for EPF..but I am happy to start dialogue/questions, but i don’t think we knew where to go for off topic talk..it seems a bit disrespectful to post a question about one’s self under another photographer’s page..

  67. “is it possible that we do not have much discussion going here just because i have not done what i always did with “road trips” which was based on me asking a question??? honestly , i think that is it” – David Alan Harvey

    and yes, this is the main origin/cause for sure… technology is not an answer, only part of a solution :)


  68. just another thing… can the admin of the Burn System implement a solution to us visitor receive in ours emails a notification saing that someone replyed to a comment that we did?


  69. Wow! Chris Johns saw and liked my essay. Thanks for sharing that with me.

    David, one of my biggest concerns about BURN is not about its success–that is already assured–but that it will overload you so much that your own work, in particular “Family Trips,” will suffer. Please don’t let that happen. You know the old adage, “The more you give, the more they expect.” Don’t let BURN’s ever-escalating demands burn you out. We’ll eat you alive if you let us. PLEASE don’t let us!!!


  70. ERICA….

    yes, i understand completely ….and i await with great interest your essay…when you are ready, i will be ready for you…as i mentioned in other comments, we have not even opened up “work in progress” yet….”Dialogue” will be for what we are doing right now…discussing everything we want to talk about…in the beginning i had to use “Dialogue” to explain where i wanted to go…and at least now we have permanent places where readers can find out about EPF and general information that we did not have before…in any case, BURN is and always will be a “work in progress” in and of itself…and again, i hope to have funding for assignments beyond the EPF…AND perhaps a print annual at the end of every year…a collectible annual…limited edition…that could change in format and style from one year to the next…so my dear Erica, do your shooting, throw in your ideas and let’s together really do something special…up for that???

    cheers, david

  71. PATRICIA….

    yes, yes, it was a great scene at National Geographic with Chris and others checking out BURN and your story in particular….thanks for this thought about my work and, believe me, it is always on my mind….i do leave Washington tomorrow for several days of shooting in Texas on my family project, then come back and move some of my “stuff” down to my new beach cottage..i have always been a pretty busy guy, but i find that i can combine my work with my personal life and personal photography fairly well( i.e. i started BURN and at the same time just spent two weeks with my mother in Colorado)..sometimes i get jammed, but don’t we all?? i am having so much fun Patricia and my philosophy has always been that if i am enjoying life, then everything must be ok….

    i am so pleased to hear you are shooting as usual..do not ever stop….

    cheers, david

  72. I haven’t really posted much at all here since the switch, and recently was made to think about why this is when talking with a fellow “road tripper”…

    DAH, I think that part of the reason “Dialogue” hasn’t become that (a dialogue) is exactly because of what you express in the post above when you say “”is it possible that we do not have much discussion going here just because i have not done what i always did with “road trips” which was based on me asking a question??? honestly , i think that is it….”

    Your questions undeniably generate discussion. I came a bit late to the “road trip” party, and as you suggested to me, I took the time to read all of the previous threads. Reading a year’s worth of threads in a few sittings (as opposed to following them organically as they grew) revealed that often the “conversation” would wander a bit (or wildly, if Akaky was around ;), and then slow, when you weren’t able to make a post for some time. Then you would return to the thread (not necessarily to a new post), and the conversation would focus and surge once more…

    I think another part of what made the comments on each post on Road Trips grow (and expand and wander) was that there was an unspoken (and often explicitly spoken, by you) encouragement of participation, even though it might be “off-topic” of your original post. By replying to even these seemingly off-topic comments, one felt that it was “ok” to post someting, even if it didn’t line up exactly with the original post. Your encouragement to “shoot loose” manifested itself into a similar feel for the conversations. We often wandered, but as anyone who’s done a road trip knows, often the wanderings become the best part of the journey.

    I can also understand what Patricia feels when she says “To be honest, even if we used Dialogue as a place to simply share our news & feelings, I’d feel a bit reluctant to speak from the heart here. Even though Road Trips was as open to the web world as Burn, somehow it felt more safe there. Of course we had our own issues, but they were “within the family” so to speak”.

    Besides simply the smaller, more closely knit group that posted, I think part of the “safety” of road trips was the nature of the layout. It took a different kind of focus to stay on top of the long threads of conversations, and I suspect it was not quite as easy a target for someone to leap in and take potshots at someone’s posting. And of course, with more attention comes…well, more attention. The launch of burn. created a stir, with all the resultant accolades and nay-sayers.

    I’m going to re-use an old quote that I think many here will recognize.

    “I don’t know if you meant what you said quite the way you wrote it but you have hit the nail right on the head, this place is AN OPEN ROOM, A party in an open room comings and goings occasional bottlenecks in the doorway, a couple quietly ageing on the couch nodding sagely, someone holding court enthralling all around, then someone vomiting in the pot plant.

    There’s a chandelier in this room and some appreciate its beauty and form, some think it’s just a bloody light, some know how many facets are cut in the crystal centrepiece and which Bavarian craftsman built it, and then some just swing from it.

    There’s a bookcase as well, where arguments, knowledge and opinions fly off the shelves, some are hit, never to be seen again, some come back stronger, ready for more, some look for a long forgotten stash behind the classics.

    Some enter in a frenzy, engaging all and sundry in a mad circumnavigation, naming countries, tearing down cities, building empires –Then, Poof! They’re gone! Some are in the corner staring at the lava lamp.

    Some enter quietly, circling conversations, earwigging, finally finding a group that fits, and joining in! It’s self validation – shit, I don’t suck that much after all! Some are taking a Leatherman tool to the drinks cabinet.

    Some come in desperate that the special someone who will make dreams come true and happy ever after will be a reality if they can just bend the ear of the host, take him by the sleeve and take him off to the bathroom for a special one on one, Some are in the street staring up through the window ,dodging the occasional TV or other white good that is thrown ( photography is solo rock and Roll), not coming up, not knocking on the door walking away, collars turned up, hat pulled down. Some are drinking out of jam jars because someone just broke a tray of glasses.

    Someone’s creating a scene, diverting attention away from the matter at hand, Drama! This room is filling quickly, time to spill out onto the street, who’s turn is it to go down the off-licence? We’re running low.

    There’s someone smoking on the balcony.”

    (Posted by: Glenn, August 24, 2008 at 01:59 AM @

    Our old party room is closed. In its place has been constructed a grand place (which is also still under construction). And it may take a while before we’re comfortable sprawling on the new sofa in the freshly redecorated living room, and are more comfortable talking in anything but admiring whispers or intellectuallism in the fine gallery added right off the front door, or tacking that particularly funny comic strip to the kitchen cabinet for any who notice to read and chuckle…and there are more people at the party, and with more people comes the possibility that those people will talk – admiringly or disparagingly, about what happens here…

    But that’s all good. We’ll get there.

    I said at the start of this post I have been hesitant to speak up here. Part of that is just feeling as if I really don’t have much to contribute to the conversation. I want to contribute. I wish I had something I felt would be of value to the community that I want and feel I am part of, but I’m not sure that I do. So until I think I have something of value to add to the discussion, I will continue to read and learn and follow links and internalize my own voice for a while…but for now I’m the remedial student in the middle of the crowded middle section, writing and note-taking furiously as my brain and inner sight is bombarded with ideas and feelings and imagery.

    I think that with just a little evolution time, “Dialogue” will emerge as a grand successor to the party that was “Road Trips”. And we have all of these other wonderful areas as well. Keep going!

    Good light to all,

  73. Right..so a thought..

    DAH..if it is too much for you to always be the one opening a discussion thread with a thought/question/idea, what if under submissions there was also a way for readers to be the one’s to open a thread that could elicit discussion? Not that we can’t just do it (WAX) here, but maybe that would work too?

  74. ANDREW B…

    many thanks for being so articulate and thoughtful….i think we can do both….have the “party” and yet still provide a whole new venue for you…there will be lots of new original work being done just for BURN, but there is no reason why we cannot “relax” in this space and just talk things over as always….in the next few days i will post on “Dialogue” in much the same way as i did with “road trips”….let’s just see how that goes….i have a feeling we will eventually be just as “at home” as we were before , with some added benefits…surely, i cannot tailor BURN to fit exactly what everyone wants..but, i think i can come pretty darn close….remember, it is US, not me…for BURN to work will require input from all of you….both random comments and committed photography…..

    by the way, i would not worry too much about the “pot shooters” or the “nay-sayers”…if i worried about them, then i would shut down in about a minute….i get a lot of behind the scenes feedback from the so called “lurkers” of which there are thousands…this silent group includes some very sophisticated folks..some of whom believe in us so much they have contributed funding for EPF and others may provide funding for assignments in the future…

    can we go backwards??? no, of course not…but, i would hope that “forwards” will be so attractive that we will all realize we are going definitely into new territory…with our history as a base , but with a “new wave” as the result…

    please stay tuned…

    cheers, david

  75. Andrew B, if your comment above is any indication, you have an utterly UNIQUE perspective to add to Burn, whether in Dialogue or on the photographic threads. Please keep sharing your thoughts, off and onsubject. You, my friend, ARE the “good light” you’re always wishing for others…


  76. I agree wholeheartedly with you, David, about not worrying about the nay-sayers and those who enjoy simply taking potshots at people…in my experience, there are 2 kinds of people when it comes to things like this – those who contribute and build and are of good heart and enjoy seeing a thing prosper, and perhaps enjoy even more helping it prosper, and those who try to claim their 15 minutes of fame by tearing things or people down.

    I strive to live my life as and amongst the former…

    In my post above I forgot to say what is perhaps most important, that in addition to reading and learning and looking both inward and outward…that is I will also be shooting….for as you’ve said so often, that IS what it is all about.

    Forward, forward! it looks fascinating out there….


  77. As far as I am concerned it’s very clear that Dialog IS Road Trips.

    Most have already said whatever they wanted to say under the current topic “Visions for 2009.”
    IMHO, If you (David) just start a new topic it will get everyone going and all should be the same as it ever was (new and improved.) Everyone just needs to get used to the new routine.

    This site is beautifully designed. As had been said here many times before… If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

  78. Thank you so much. I just visited your site and I really admire your style. The way you capture your subjects and your composition are very close to what I am trying to achieve. If you have any advice or criticism for me I would love to hear it.

  79. ANDREW B…

    your attitude my friend is the KEY to life, not just this forum..good on you…i look forward to seeing your work….if you want, we can start development any time you want….

    cheers, david

  80. ERICA…

    i had not thought of that,am not opposed, but it is not clear to me exactly what you mean….what is the difference between you starting something right here or somehow doing it through “submissions”…if i go to submissions right now, there will be maybe 300 pictures and/or essays to view…if one of those was an “idea” or a “thread” to be reviewed and judged and then potentially posted, it would seem to me to be a extra gate for you to go through that would be an impediment rather than just having the freedom to post whatever thread you want to start right here…or , am i not understanding at all your concept?? tell me , tell me….

    cheers, david

    p.s…this is funny….i am now getting a warning from WordPress that comments are coming in too quickly to handle…the warning said “SLOW DOWN”….a good afternoon laugh!!!!

  81. DAVID

    I would like you to know (and I hope you know that) that “burn” suits me perfectly :) My comment was just free idea because I did not knew that “dialog” part is for free speach not only for respond for topic. No preasure, especialy for me I always feel free at your “home” and my ideas are just ideas not requirements. I have no requirements, never.
    I know you put in this magazine whole heart ans so much time so I should ask you for patience to us not vice versa :)
    And about questions keepeng “road trips” alive. For me you dont have to ask questions all the time. Do You remember that many times you was busy and we still talked while your absence?

    About “age of style”.
    I looked at Jonas na Mikhael one more time and yes I have to agree with you, I am little changed my mind. But I think there is something like “modern style”, I see it at NOOR, VII, VU and many polish young photogs.
    But I think this is discussion for some free time.

    As about pictures from thailand; This was turist trip and I have not any strong essay. I have some “nice” single photos, and some short stories but nothing deep. They are just not good enough. Beside I am scanning all the time, and I try put this images together what is so difficult, this stories are very short, mostly I worked one or two hours at.
    There is nothing to show but here is one link to essay about paoy pet border in cambodia:
    I have nothing more to show now. You know… I am unfinished photographer :)

    Now for two maybe three months I will not work to much. I send you one pictures from cuba by submissions, because if I want say something about someones works I should not hide myself, even if you reject the picture it is fair to send own work before criticism someone else.

    “i am sure there will always be something not quite right, but that might just be the nature of being….or, the nature of my being!”

    BURN is living organism, it will be evolve and I want evolve with it!


  82. David/Marcin;

    As you know I love Larry Towell’s work. But I don’t really class his Mennonite book as “old style”, I think it’s way looser than that. Everytime I look at that book it blows me away.

    I’ve also been trying to get hold of some of Trent Parke’s books, but it’s like looking for hen’s teeth! I love his work… So distinctive..


  83. David;

    I think everything is fine on Burn. I was only seeking clarification that Dialogue is the old Road Trip, so everything continues as usual. I hope my comments didn’t cause a storm in a teacup.

    As for your participation; well I think everyone knows that when you can participate, you do. Hell, you’ve still got to make a living and Burn must be a massive time commitment.

    Also I love the diversity of single images and essays. I think that it’s important to view a wide range of work, and even if it’s not to your taste, there may still be things you can learn, and maybe influence your own work. Whether it be consciously or subconsciously.

    Take for example Bob’s work. I can’t and don’t shoot like Bob, but do see his influences turning up in my work. I’m not trying to shoot like him, but by viewing a wide range of other’s work you subconsciously absorb ideas.

    Same as Kyunghee Lee’s “Island”, I can’t and don’t shoot like that, but do appreciate the work, and am sure it will influence my work some way, somehow. Once I could never “get” Martin Parr’s work, whereas now I really enjoy viewing it. Again; it’s not my style, but I still enjoy it.

    I don’t think I would have “seen” my new project without inspiration from the old Road Trips and Burn. But this site does inspire you to get out and shoot and that’s the main point isn’t it!


  84. David, I’d like that very much.

    I was hoping to sign up for your workshop at Look3 this year, but my schedule precludes being there during the workshops. I still hope to make it to the festival itself, at least.

    Perhaps the first step is for me to send you a short email, to give you an idea of where I am with this all? I don’t want to take your time unnecessarily, but would love to have at least a word or two of direction…even if it’s simply to get ideas on what to have in hand to submit to you for a workshop later on this year…

  85. DAH

    in the end it may still make too much work for you, but the thought was that the difference in making it a submission idea is that there would be regular new threads that people could discuss in a more cohesive way..but what I really think we need is just to have a clear space for regular new discussion posts. I guess that space is here, now, but I don’t think it is totally clear to everyone yet.

  86. David, I couldn’t stop shooting if I tried. Since you posted “Falling Into Place” a week ago, I’ve taken three definite keepers to add to the 66 images I already had. And I spent Thursday afternoon doing my “photojournalist” thing at a large pro-Palestinian demonstration here in Detroit. Of all the photos I took, this one reached beneath all the signs and chants to show the profound sadness that all the signs and chants could not dispell:



  87. ERICA…

    i guess we will just have to speak in person…i just cannot “get” what you are talking about with “submissions” and how that would create regular new threads??? just tell me step by step what you mean….sorry….

    cheers, david

  88. David & Andrew,
    “….by the way, i would not worry too much about the “pot shooters” or the “nay-sayers”…if i worried about them, then i would shut down in about a minute….i get a lot of behind the scenes feedback from the so called “lurkers” of which there are thousands…this silent group includes some very sophisticated folks..some of whom believe in us so much they have contributed funding for EPF and others may provide funding for assignments in the future…”…

    I can confirm that experience…I received about 4o comments by e- mail…and there’s been some from professionals I would have never thought of/ dared to contact myself .

  89. Hi David,
    I guess, and i only guess, what Erica is trying to describe is simply a way to submit a topic to you so you can post it as a discussion material. At the moment you have a way to submit photos using the designated email address. The same can be done for a “topic/question”, for example something along “what is a strong photograph?” with some description by the author. I guess this is what Erica describes and I base my assumption on the fact that it will be “too much work for you” to filter through all the topics and pick those that are of true interest to BURN readers. I can give it a name: controlled discussion forum

    In my opinion it will be beneficial – I have mentioned this in one of the previous emails where I mentioned that comments go off topic pretty quickly and the main topic fades.

    Erica – feel free to humor me. Am I off in the woods?

  90. Hello David and all,

    Hope your doing fine… its being some time since my last post and many many things seem to have evolved! Im trying to catch up and adapt with all the changes! Great design! and great energy coming from this place, as usual…

    Right now Im in India and I was wondering if youll be coming over any time soon? or in the following months? Please let me know since I keep on working on my “globalization” project… how can you take a look at some of my recent work? Shall I submit it or send it for work in progress? Im still figuring out how everything is working, well, I guess we all are…



  91. The same can be done for a “topic/question”, for example something along “what is a strong photograph?” with some description by the author. – Haik

    the irony is that Road-Trip’s ‘long single strand’ verses Burn’s ‘nested’ comments’ essentially lets anyone kick off a new topic. if it’s interesting enough to the members, well, members will go for it and participate underneath it; exactly as we are doing now.. ta‘da‘! :-)

    if the questions, or requests for feedback, or anything really, is not interesting to the community it will fade, and if it fades it should have faded if David raised it or someone that is not David raised it, no?

    this is the beauty of a self-ordering community, people need to think for themselves regarding what’s important and maybe lose this shepherd-sheep mentality, it’s not the most future proof energy.

    sure putting yourself out there to ask questions or seek help can make you feel a bit vulnerable, and if no one cares to respond, well it can sometimes ‘unfairly’ make you feel dumb, but that’s the nature of human nature, and this is imporant…. what members do when questions or requests for help arrive, well the extent of member response sort of defines if this is truly a community or just an impersonal forum playing to the master.

    now someone is going to say if you kick off new threads for each question we can more easily follow the ‘things’ we care about, and we can also key-word search them and data-mine them, and blog them and grog them and twitter and web 2.0 them, but on the flip side of that efficiency, you can also raise a question, put your name in lights and see a big ‘zero’ responses next to your name, which seems more like a shame at times, but since it’s there it can inhibit questions of conversation verses people going for the killer question, like what is the meaning of life or what’s the best camera for photographing the meaning of life,… you get the drift?

    anyway, maybe this only makes sense to me, but i’ll try it out with an genuine question i‘d love to discuss, sure i’ll feel like a dork for asking it, but it’s an example all the same :-)

  92. In reply to what Joe writes (can’t reply to the post directly): if you ask a question here in the thread, how do other people know a discussion is going on? Not everybody has the time to read all the replies, follow all the posts, come back and check if something new has been added.

    I read road trips, replied perhaps once or twice, but having it in the RSS feed I could at least follow along the initial quest, and pick what I was interested in to follow… here it is quite difficult..

  93. Eva, you are correct, and i find Burn challenging to follow with out RSS, this works great with the images/essays, because the name of the thread makes the comment’s intent self-describing, but i always have to flip over to Burn from the rss reader when ever it’s a comment over here, so i see the challenge.


    This project is inherently cohesive since it’s essentially autobiographical. That’s not really a new concept is it?

    Trent also knitted the images together in edit that some might think started when Trent said, ‘Hey, Narelle, was that ‘really’ my last roll of medium format film?’… for me this is pretty much the opposite of saying, i know what i want to say, i’m going to go find the images that say it, and to be even more bold, this seems more like ‘I’m going to execute some family photos in fine-art fashion and like lego-blocks, I’m going to build an mysterious marketable essay out of it… hmmm…

    here’s where it gets interesting, are they just family photos? is this just a brief autobiography? Is it just some incidental visual connections that add only a second layer of cohesion, or…. Drum roll please…

    Is this actually a some crime drama mystery story?…

    at any rate, i like it, a lot, and i like that this is dramatically different than Trent’s Minutes to Midnight light-bending bar tricks. ironically this seem much more like something Alec Soth would do. is it a mere coincidence that they are both recent adds to the Magnum entourage? is it a mere coincidence that they might be unlikely candidates for Magnum twenty years ago? maybe that’s the murder mystery, who did they frame to move forward the Magnum paradigm? ;-)

    So anyone want to discuss Trent’s Christmas Tree Bucket Story?



    You can find them sequenced based on Trent’s intent here…

    You can find Trent speaking about Christmas Tree Bucket here…

    And you can examine the Christmas Tree Bucket images individually here…


  96. EVA…

    here it should be way easier to post , follow a thread than “road trips”, BUT i think i know what is bothering you…on “road trips” whatever you wanted to write came at the bottom of a whole series of comments..you could not drop a line to one specific person as is so easy here..the problem with being able to comment to one person, is that the others miss it, or do not know when it was written…it is out of sequence…we can flip a switch and make it work the other “old” way…or here, you could just post at the bottom , the old way, not replying to one specific comment…anyway, let’s play around a bit ….what do you think???

    cheers, david

  97. David, yes, what you mention is one thing, the other is: Joe has posted a question about Trent Parke, way down, but how do people know? Nothing on the front page, if I don’t dig I miss it, know what I mean? Of course not every question/discussion needs a new thread, having people open their own threads might get out of hand opposed to only you opening threads like on RT might limit discussion.. dunno..

    cheers from Tuscany ;)

  98. ALL….

    let’s see if Joe’s discussion kicker “takes”…i would jump in myself , but i must catch a plane to Texas…i will be “off” until perhaps tomorrow afternoon…flying/driving….

    wishing all a good day (night)….back soonest…

    cheers, david

  99. Missing Bob here …

    well … lets try … actually I am not so good at this :)

    The first thing that came into my mind when I saw the picture of the naked Christmastree on Magnum’s Blog was the thought “Parr meets Shining”. Hope you know Kubrik’s Shining? Guess it has to do with the sense of Mystery that you mentioned too, Joe, the mystery that sneaks in from between the lines. Not quite the doomed feeling you get when you see the idyllic family-lifes at the beginning of each horror movie. Different. Less threatening. With a sense of humour. Surreal none the less. I remember thinking that the photograph would have been only half as good if there had not been the chandelier in the adjacent hall … repeating the tree. I liked the picture as a single and I am very happy to see that there is a whole more of it now.

    I am (supposed to be) heavily working right now – so I only had a quick look at Trent Parke’s Family Album once now … You see that he grouped the pictures so to find similarities that lead from one to another. Like the sprinkler for example, leading to the guy pissing in the back yard… I think Soth did some kind of project where he was always searching for a next image that kind of repeated something from the image before … Hope I am not mixing it up. I say that because I was actually not seeing Soth here and wondering about your comparison.

    The fact that Trente rearranged the images in this new sense making way, reminded me of …. hmm … do not know how this is called but … when someone asks you to spell a word, some simple word you use maybe all the time and all of the sudden, concentrating on it so you can spell it, it starts to shift before your eyes and gets very … alien … You look at the word and all of the sudden cannot tell anymore how it is supposed to be spelled, and if you concentrate more, sometimes the meaning also starts to vanisch and all there is left is … some forms … very abstract …. spaces and shapes … and then you shake your head and slowly things come back …

    So for me this is kind of what happens slightly with Trente’s images, they become a little more abstact, giving part of their original context away while enhancing something that has to do with form and symbolism. It would not have been half as good if he had not rearraged them.

    Sorry, this is really superficial … But … just based on a very first impression.
    Back to work now and … will come back tomorrow.

  100. Joe:


    First let me say that I am sorry that i got all emotional on your ass 2 days ago. I’ve been fighting a very bad flu for 2 weeks now and took all the comments way way too personal, including all the attacks from anons and trolls and some folk at hcsp. I tend to be committed to supporting friends, work i believe in and you got caught up in my (as my wife liked to reminded me last night) “silent era film acting drama” ;))…so, i sorry about that. i’ll just step back from all the personalization. But, i think you are a great and important addition in. sorry for the drama.

    Ok, about Park’s Christmas Tree bucket. God damn, and I am happy you mention this work. I have always loved in since a friend in Australia sent me some of the pics after a show there. Have always been a great fan of trent’s work (and Narelle’s, whose work is still under appreciated outside of Oz) and loved too when he and his work was transformed after the birth of his son. In truth, I think that Christmas tree is as strong as Minutes to Midnight for both spiritual and intimate reasons. In fact, I think it is a great example of how to consider a body of work, how to make an “essay” how to allow images to not only possess the moment from which they were born but also an example of how to sequence:

    intuitively, using both emotional connections that join both photographs and disparate images but also visual cues as ways to connect. I have tried to do the same thing with bones of time (to be seen soon), and i realize too that most people only respond to either the obvious content (the iconography) of a photograph but rarely to the inner lives that bind images put together. both Lynchian (whose life in truth, especially the oddity of family life, in both the odd switching and humour) and like a modern version of It’s a Wonderful Life….for in the end, trent’s story is about wonder…the odd, magical death-filled, humour-licked wonder of life….the swimsuits, the baby kissing the doll, the deadmouse sleeping after having been broken by the trap beneath the stairs, the wrestling dogs, the frightening bunnies, the empty tvs, the suckling babies, the entire tumult of the life that one has….

    as a photographer too, i’ve tried to focus only on that, the near impossibility of filling up the life that surrounds, the entirety of that, without preconceived measures or judgment, what holds so tightly Trent’s work is that: the the photos are bound by their humour or their fear, their terror and their loneliness, their joy and their laughter and that, like memory, the recalling of one moment allways leads, as does serendipity, to the discovery of other memories:

    how we are bound not by connection but through the abacus of intuition and strength alight…just as we discover things on the web randomly, so too when we arrange this waking life…

    a great series and an important discussion point…i’ll follow up with more thoughts, but now need to finish a re-edit for David…


  101. Just a quick follow up….I think another interesting approach to Trent’s gorgeous story is Lynch’s (since i brought him up) masterpiece: Inland Empire….a film itself about the logic of film, of life entering and disappearing, the dreamscape of the head and heart, both the fears and the stupidity of our waking and dreaming lives…

    what particularly resonates with me about Christmas Tree bucket is that in life, our our examined life, we (if we are calm and open) see patterns, not just the obvious patterns of behavior and emotion, but all kinds of visual and oneiric cues….when we began to settle, we see this, like ghost patterns…when we photograph as a way of swallowing, a way of negotiating, we see that each of us is ineluctably drawn to certain moments, to carve our a visual word…and the weird thing, when we put work aside and re-visit, patterns emerge, color or graphic, faces or moments….what i love about Xmas tree bucket is that it’s there, it carves out the strange and frightening and wonderous and funny life around us…as strange as antyhing along the backs and bellies of war….

    as i’ve tried to write many times at RoadTrip and Lightstalkers, the most interesting life is the life around, the life observed in front of you, as soon as you open up to the shape and breath of that which is carved upon you…

    and i hope more people notice the story as a point by which they should think about their own essays…

    i hope that folks, when they see bones, will feel as moved….dont misunderstand me, i aint park ;))), but as a an example that what it means to tell a story is not as clean , as crisp, as the 25 straight pics that tell a story….a story may just be that which is telling you instead ;)))


  102. Hey Bob, what’s in the past is just that, glad you’re healthy. :-)

    RE Trent Park X-Mas

    Maybe this project is unapproachable, but what if you chunk off something that might be more easy to explore without getting too crazy.

    There’s a sexist concept out there that suggests there is such a thing as “Movies for Men that like Movies”; you can actually find the list here http://www.amazon.com/AntiChick-Flick-List-DVDs-Movies/lm/NQ0Q62J87U66

    Who cares about the legitimacy of that list or that concept, but i do think that photography at this project’s level to truly be ‘Photographs for People that love Photographs.’

    i mean does anyone know of any non-photographer that would like these images? What’s up with that?

    How many people have already thought after looking at these images:

    ‘this is ridiculous; this is just a picture of some guys back yard?’


    Get real!, if I took a picture of friends hanging out in my living room, I wouldn’t have the audacity to call it art!


    Jeez, Magnum photographers can get away with anything?

    Or let’s not forget the Grinch that stole Christmas… the most common reply with images of this nature:

    Does anyone think of the tale of the Emperors New Clothes?

    So why on earth do these images work?

    Without even talking about why do they work together, why does each image seem interesting to read?

    Pick the most absurd image, but one you really like, and decrypt it. If you can do this, in my opinion, you will discover the genius of innocuous composition, you will begin to understand why your ‘snap-shots’ of your back yard don’t unnerve you in this way. or why your still life of a pot boiling doesn’t stimulate thought like these do.

    Again, what’s going on here?, what gets these images over the mark? Why can’t we repeat them? We’ve surely got the same ingredients?

    Or maybe I’m just a dork for thinking about this kind of stuff, but I do ;-)


  103. I cannot tell a lie. I was pretty underimpressed for about the first 30 images. But then the damn thing began to grow on me, rather like fungus. And then I started laughing out loud. Not once but several times. My god, what a quirky vision this Trent guy has. And it works. I don’t know how. But it does. It is something I could never ever pull off myself, nor do I think I’d want to. I’m just too much of a romantic I guess. But now that I’ve allowed myself to give up control and simply ride Trent’s strange and wonderful wave, I’m glad there’s at least one photographer out there who can just open his eyes and snap his shutter at the most inane subjects. And because there’s such a consistency of vision, it works. More power to him, I say.


  104. Patricia/Bob;

    I was a bit like you when I first viewed The Christmas Tree, probably because it was such a departure from his black and white work. I’m still not sure about it, but keep returning to it! So that must mean something.

    Parke’s Minutes to Midnight is just sublime!

    As an aside have you ever seen Richard Billingham’s “Ray’s A Laugh”? I don’t know if he’s done much since, but “Ray’s A Laugh” is a pretty searing piece on his father’s alcoholism… That book hits me fair in the gut every time I flick through it..


  105. i have to admit i really struggle with the bucket series. It does however seem to generate a lot of interest and support and so i do re-visit it at times. I think the visual language he uses is just so far away from my own that i struggle to find a bridge that will allow me to ‘see’ and relate to what is being shown. very talented photographer, obviously, and a nice tangent for this thread to take.

  106. Joe:

    thanks for getting over the past ;)))…it really was about me and frustration with myself…and fighting a horrendous flu…anyway….thanks for understanding…

    as for Park’s series, i really thing it is magnificent. As a fan of the b/w, Minutes, Dream/Life and of course the remarkable 1st book 7th Wave (with Narelle), when i first saw his color pics (all those Hopper-esque beautiful city scapes and red-dirt outback beauty), I wasn’t shocked but intrigued…as a pretty intense trix dude, i’ve struggled alot with the idea of color and hunger to shoot it (and have in the past, but it never felt like me), especially since i’m increasingly drawn to color (the painter coming out again) and the memories of turning onto Eggleston as a teenager….and i’ve ‘appreciated’ Trent’s color stuff more than I responded physically (as I always had to with the b/w). In fact, i always preferred Narelle’s color…until Bucket….

    Bucket was a stunner for me. It captures the same mysterious memory as the b/w work, only it seems even more ‘conceptual’ (what i love), particularly the brilliant use of flash. though the photos are not conceptual (as trent spoke in the interview), their appearance suggests moments arrested from their actual life, it is that that is so magnificent…strange and haunting and terrifying stuff, but also filled with great great humour. It’s actually (for me) the most cinematic of his work, really a movie, a home movie. That’s why I mentioned Lynch, in particular Inland Empire (have y’all seen it??) and It’s a Wonderful Life. In some sense, if it is an issue (for me it is not), these photos are more ‘accessible’ to lay viewers than the magnificent dream b/w, because not only of the content (the quotidian, instead of the supernatural) but because of their ‘appearance.” but this is not surprising. When i got married and had to scale around the negotiation of shooting and writing and having a family, my pics also changed, not obviously, but you become more observant, more anamoured of all that is arround…it’s actually a weird life, the family life, sure, filled with mundate shit (like everything) but everything seems intensified…at least it did to me, having been a bachelor for so long….it changed me too…i know longer became interested in street photography, but i wanted to shoot the life immediately around me: my wife, my son, friends, places we were, environments, and the ideas for stories came from my feelings and relationship to people and places directly in front of me…

    in a sense, Trent’s project is a quite universal family album…with a surreal and brilliant worped Oz sense of humour…again, it reminds me of so many brilliant australian novels and films…the ‘Bliss” of the everyday, bliss (from the Carey novel) not of just joy, but weird, scarey, magical alchemy….i mean, who the fuck is this guy in the swimsuit late at night?…if that isn’t out of a lynch flick, i dont know what is….or the Huge Rabbit stalking the house behind the curtain: what the fuck is up with that? ;)))))))))…

    the more i look at bucket, the wiser, and funnier and stranger and more miraculous it begcomes…

    the difference between everone’s snaps of their family, home, bots boiling, toys in the sink, dead mice, tv’s in the shadow, christmas trees falling assunder, is a queston of 2 specific things:

    1) technique! Park’s technique is just fucking flawless. use of light and color and that fucking flash…it’s just flawless, not in the sense of perfect, but flawless in the sense of serving the iconography and the moment

    2) vision for composition: the use of space and light and graphic design in these pics is just brilliant…everything is just a notch to the surreal, to the ‘manufactured’ just enough to make the images not about the specifics of the life or the people but to make them, well photographs…not reality, but of reality…there is a big big difference…

    what distinguishes great photography is not something that can be easily analyized or calculated…it is an algebra of things: technique, moment, vision, feeling, emotion, concept, expression. I showed my story about Dinosaur bones to another photographer and they laughed, as they had shot the same museum and the stories look totally different, cause my story isnt about the R.O.M. but about me, my son, my father, all the faces and memories that live in our head, our lives and memories and are contained in those trapped, fossils….

    but it cannot be (at least for me) something that is planned…something erupts…often, when you work hard and think alot and then react intuitively, things come up…think of the idea of serendipity, particularly in science….i always wait to develop my film after shooting and sometimes once develop and then get happy and then put away and then months later, a year later, i’ll look again, and stuff i didnt realize makes sense…it isn’t an intellectual process, at least for me, it’s a visceral one, born from some emotional response to a moment, a person, a place, a shaft of light or shadow…a face…the memory of a face…

    anyway, if u r a dork, im a super dork ;))))


  107. RossL

    got your email…will wrtie u tomorrow….i have to finish scanning something and finish a book im reading, so im limiting myself on computer tonight to 30 minutes…by the way: I LOVE BUCKET…and I LOVE MINUTES….

    more tomorrow…

  108. one last bit about the intensity of Trent’s story….as an example:

    the pic with the funnel-web spider:


    when i first saw this picture, i thought of the flick blue velevet….the intensity and spookiness of the vacuum cleaner and red carpet and this huge black spider…(a major fear of mine)…and then i learned about this creature…

    considered the world’s most aggressive and dangerous spider, whose bite is lethal if not treated within 30-40 minutes…and with regard to a child being bitten….

    which intensifies this photograph and the moment when either trent or narelle discovered this creature in the home….

    really extraordinary cinematic work….

    David: do u know if it will be a book?…


  109. DAVID and ALL-

    After being away for a good week in Europe, I really enjoyed looking over the various photographs that have been shared and also the new essay of Kyunghee Lee. I will write to Kyunghee my thoughts separately under her essay… Over the past days, it has been more difficult for me to connect as planning a move of the family to Belgium in March is consuming a lot of my time. Finding a place to stay, finding schools and registering the kids, all the sort of basic things all of you who have moved have experienced and that is taking a lot of time and energy..

    As I was just in Europe, checking out French magazines about photography, I saw a picture of David in the front page of “Reponse Photos”, one of the two major French magazines and inside the magazine 6-7 pages of David’s images in a portfolio combined with a 4 pages report from one of his former students Hubert Hayaud, about his experince during the Magnum workshop with David in Oslo…. For those who are French speaking, please check it out. You would have been pleased by the very positive report David (I presume that you must have seen the magazine but if not, let me know if you would like me to send you my copy). It is always great to see others relate their experience of their workshop with David… certainly brought back a lot of the great memories I have myself….

    Beyond this, as I have been a bit slow to come back to David, I have literally locked myself into a room yesterday to complete my boxing essay. I plan to keep shooting until early March to accumulate as many good photographs as possible before I have to leave the US and then hopefully, I will do my very very final edit. But I have assembled some photographs for now (many new ones) together with some text and voices I have recorded. I will send now to David and hopefully he will like it and show it to all….

    I will now try to catch up on the past conversations…



  110. ERIC,
    good to hear from you!
    Have you got an address in Brussels already?
    You know we always pass there when we drive to London … :))
    See you soon!

  111. DAH.. EVA / HAIK followed my poor wording exactly, and JOE expanded well on the ups and down of having ‘controlled discussion’..not sure what is best with regard to starting a discussion, but I am troubled by the ‘expanded reply method’ because when a comment isn’t at the bottom of the page, I will rarely have the time to find it.

  112. OK, just glanced at Trent’s piece – need to go back and view properly before I comment on that…

    DAH/Anton and all those who have been discussing how the posts/replies work:

    IMHO, the “reply” function does have both a plus and a minus – plus is that the comment ends up below the person to whom you’re replying….minus is, as some have stated, they can get lost. Yes, there is the “new comments” listing on the sidebar – but it quickly cycles through new things if you’re gone for long.

    So what if…..we had a reply button, and if you used it your post would be placed at the bottom/end of the entire thread….BUT at the start of your reply it would insert a link (automagically generated) back to the post to which you are “replying”. That way, anything new is at the end. To catch up after being away, you simply find where you last read and read downward….and if you see something that is a “reply”, you know it is such because it starts out with “In Reply to _____________” where the _______ is a link to the post…..you can click it if you don’t remember the context, or it doesn’t make sense….if you DO remember the context or the original post, then you have no need to click…..

    Sounds more complicated than I’m envisioning in my head….also not sure how possible the coding/automagical link generation part is…..but I think it could give us who can’t follow via an RSS feed the best of both worlds….the ability to reply “directly” and still have all new posts at the end….

    just an idea….

    good light on this fine day to all!

  113. lassal, my postcard to you came back to me – I need to send you another!

    Is the address still on your web site? Are you still doing this project?

    And how is the little dog?

    best, A.

  114. Why can’t you follow the comments in an RSS?

    For me, the RSS feed is why I keep checking back. If it was not here, I would not have come by because the way it used to be done was a pain, for me. I still spend more time than I want to reading the posts here, but again, that is my decision.

    So Burn is different than Road Trips. If you want Road Trips, someone could easily set up a different blog, and those who want it well head there. It seems like there is an audience built in. The discussion here is different, mostly because there are more images to discuss. If randomness is wanted put it into whatever post like it used to happen.

    I am interested to how Burn shakes out. It has a promising start and a built in audience. Seeing how the audience grows and changes.

  115. I suppose I worded that poorly. I *could* use RSS, but choose not to, for several reasons. And, if I’m not mistaken, Road Trips had an RSS feed as well.

    My idea is simply meant for those who don’t use RSS, and have said they like the reply feature except for replies ending up “buried” earlier in the thread….and it was exactly what I said it was – an idea, put forth for consideration.

    “So Burn is different than Road Trips. If you want Road Trips, someone could easily set up a different blog, and those who want it well head there. It seems like there is an audience built in. The discussion here is different, mostly because there are more images to discuss. If randomness is wanted put it into whatever post like it used to happen”

    I’m not sure I understand your point here. Who said anything about wanting Road Trips?


  116. David… I uploaded a ‘video’ online, it is private but I could share it with you. All I need is the email address to send the authorization to. Please let me know. The way the Submission page is set up we can not submit that kind of work. Best, Veba.

  117. I do not know if you can help me, before I used here is as translator http://tr.voila.fr/traduction_voila.php and it allowed me to translate all the pages of a site, with the new interface of Burn, it does not work, if I use google as translator, it translates me only 50 comments by page, and it is everything, is that anybody would know another translator which would work for Burn ? Thank you

    I love Burn! I love all this variety of proposed photos, I just have difficulty following comments…

    Best, audrey

  118. I run Firefox, with the greasemonkey addon and the babelfish greasemonkey script.

    Double clicking the text translates it with this configuration.

    Hope you can understand this. :)

  119. Back once again/for the renegade master
    Default damager/power to the people
    Back once again/for the renegade master
    Default damager/with the ill behaviour

    christmas.. friends.. cognac.. herb.. fam(ill)..
    new year.. mothers right wing lover.. a row.. being attacked.. thrown out again..

    scruffy hotel and change of flights back to norges style.

    isn´t it good to be home again..?


    i really love what is happening with the site – truly photo led and some intelligent comments.. much more educational.. much more interesting.. and with the rss feed linking directly to photos it illustrates the point of the place better.

    lots of area´s to comment now and it seems i will have to quit my job to stay ahead of the game now..hmm.

    great to see patricia and miss lee exhibited and will spoend some time with those later on.

    all – thoughts for ANTON THE GREAT now exploring the underbelly of japan.. muchos thanks for the mail anton.. reply forthwith.

  120. david:

    if you provide links, it sits until David has a chance to make it public, as i understand, it’s to prevent spam….i just left Lassal a long comment with links under today’s new pics…so, im sure you comment will come up soon :))


  121. hmm.. no links.. just a hello and words.. when i try to repost it says that it has already been posted.. maybe i posted somewhere else..
    thanks bob.

    to try again here –
    Back once again/for the renegade master
    Default damager/power to the people
    Back once again/for the renegade master
    Default damager/with the ill behaviour

    christmas.. friends.. cognac.. herb.. fam(ill)..
    new year.. mothers right wing lover.. a row.. being attacked.. thrown out again..

    scruffy hotel and change of flights back to norges style.

    isn´t it good to be home again..?


    i really love what is happening with the site – truly photo led and some intelligent comments.. much more educational.. much more interesting.. and with the rss feed linking directly to photos it illustrates the point of the place better.

    lots of area´s to comment now and it seems i will have to quit my job to stay ahead of the game now..hmm.

    great to see patricia and miss lee exhibited and will spoend some time with those later on.

    all – thoughts for ANTON THE GREAT now exploring the underbelly of japan.. muchos thanks for the mail anton.. reply forthwith.

  122. ERIC…

    i did not see this magazine, nor know anything about it…funny how that is!! sure, i would love to see a copy, but i am sure i can find one through Magnum Paris if it is inconvenient for you to send me a copy…

    thanks for sending your essay…we will start working on it soonest…

    cheers, david

  123. David,

    I have sent you an email, I know that you are very occupied but if you have an instant, I would like very much your opinion on my essay, thank you in advance

    Best, audrey

  124. ALL…

    a quick question for everyone…i am considering suspending comments under the essays and selected photographs….i am just not sure we gain much or learn much from the comments in this context…the comments do inhibit some readers from wanting to submit and get miscellaneous threads started that go nowhere…of course, if i do stop comments from this arena, we will still have “Dialogue” to discuss whatever we want including the published work…what do you think?

    cheers, david

  125. I vote for ‘try it’ and see if you get the results you wish :-) It seems an easy change to make happen and reverse if it doesn’t get the result you wish. :-))

  126. As I posted in another thread, the current format makes the site stand out to me as different from other online magazines. There are plenty of web sites with static photos and slide-show essays. Magnum and Mediastorm both do this. Is the direct interaction that accompanies the photo or essay that interests me.

  127. JOE..BEN…

    yes, that was my thought too…and as soon as i write a story as per old “road trips” everyone should be jumping on to that thread…as i said, anyone wanting to comment on the picture of the day or on the essays will still be able to do so, but this will at least concentrate the discussion..

    thanks for your input…

    cheers, david

  128. DAVID,
    I think that might be a good idea. This ain’t flickr and frankly I’ve seen a lot of “I don’t like it” comments from anonymous writers. There’s nothing constructive about them and those persons doesn’t seem to accept another on the world than their own. Another problem is that a photo that isn’t as good or is controversial will get more comments than photos that most considers good and really enjoy which is bit sad. I’ve got nothing against critique, but I don’t think that burn should be based around negativity. It’s not easy to decide, because I think that Road Trip was a bit too friendly. There wasn’t a lot of constructive criticism going on. And here I feel it’s the opposite and I think it’ll be hard to find that balance of something between the two here. So get rid of the comments. I consider the essays and selected photographs finished pieces and not something that needs to commented.


  129. David

    I personally have found having the opportunity to read and post comments under specific essays and selected photographs to be a tremendous learning experience. To my way of thinking it has kept us ON topic rather than OFF topic. The discussions have stayed more focused on photography than I remember seeing on Road Trips. I’m afraid if you only allow comments on the Dialogue thread, we will again see the same tendency towards discussions going off in a million different directions…and we would be back to the challenge of trying to follow one topic among the many.

    Yes, the way it is now set up means the photographers whose work is posted are putting themselves “out there” in a very real way. I know from the inside how scary it can be to put your “baby” out there for anyone to take potshots at. But isn’t that the way it works when you go public with your work? Doesn’t one have to develop a bit of a thick skin in this business?

    Now I don’t know what you might have been hearing by email or phone calls from your featured photographers. Maybe they are upset and you are having to deal with that on top of everything else. If that is the case then you’ll need to do whatever it takes to clarify the process. If that means eliminating comments from the essays and selected photos, so be it.

    But I, for one, would miss them.


  130. Cool, David, I think that it would give the features more of a magazine like quality. The dialogue is already a forum… might get a bit chaotic, but worth trying!

  131. Maybe keep discussion under essays, but not for selected photograph? So much more can be discussed about a full body, with images in context and written background..

  132. David,

    I also think this may be a good idea. I think it would be nice to have you comment under the Photo of the Day or the Essays though to give us your thoughts on what you like about them and your reasons for publishing. In addition of course to anything that the photographer may want to share.

  133. I would miss them, too (both for what concerns essays and single photographs).

    And what I’m missing more, right now, is that in most cases the author did not contribute to the discussions… that’s why probably most of the discussions remained sort of “suspended” and led to nowhere.

  134. I second David’s idea of showing the selected photos and essays without comments, but I also think, as Pete, it will be very helpful to get an idea of why that work was selected. Besides, we can always have our discussions from the images in the dialogue section.
    Yes, I think it may work :-)

  135. David:

    funny, as i was just “talking to myself” this morning on my way to the subway…preparing to talk to folks when bones goes up….I of the, ‘keep it open’ mind. Burn is still in it’s infancy and lots of birthing stuff to content with. I have had 2 different reactions. first, a lot of the initial enmity and snarky negativity seem really silly to me and sadly, i personalized it too much, trying to ‘fight the good fight’ to the point where i over-reacted, including to dissenting commentary. This, i feel, was about my tendency to go overboard in my support of work, or thinking about discussion. Maybe my own words inhibited lots of folks, even those who disagreed with the value of a particular essay or photograph. Enthusiasm should not diminish discussion and so, after 3 days of ‘shutting up’, i’ve decided a new approach: to comment on the specifics of work, but not get all dramatic ;). to keep my thoughts in check.

    As a photographer whose work will be shown, i actually welcome the discussion. the question is: has the discussion been about ideas/the work, or has it been about arguments or over-analysis. Probably, the latter. As a photographer, i welcome (for those interested) to talk about my work, the context of the work, the choices/rationale made, agreement or dissent. I felt, eventually, the discussion of Kat’s photo got elevated to this, albeit highly emotional (which is to be expected). The problem is that writing/speaking and the act of making things are born of two very different planets. I mean, lots of people can’t or dont like to ‘talk’ about work: totally understand that. I think if the work creates a conversation between author and reader, that would be the best of all worlds. However, many photographers dont want/wish or need to talk about their work: that is what the work is for, instead of words.

    So, my feeling is to let it alone, see how it evolves. Each photographer can decide to talk or not about their work, just as the vast majority of people who look at burn do not comment at all. It is always intriguing (joyful and maddening) to hear others reaction about our work, and i’m not sure if it is constructive or not: that probably depends on the photographer themselves. I think as Burn evolves and some of the other features are implemented (like interviews with the photographers, or threads discussing the context or background on the work), the comments beneath pics will evolve and change.

    It is always a tough beast when dealing with comments and speech with regard to work. I mean, each of us needs/doesn’t need words in very different ways, and there is no right/wrong understanding of this.

    If you decide not to allow comments under work, at least do it after bones ;))))…i want people to be able to say whatever they want…or to ask me anything they want…

    ok, running

    hellos from my better half :))

  136. I think it’s extremely important to keep the energy and interactivity of the site intact.

    This being said I’m (relatively) sure you can accomplish both a clean, unadulterated presentation of photos and still retain that spirit. I think someone mentioned earlier a direct link under the photo that would lead to the corresponding Dialogue entry. It should be automatically generated though, so that multiple threads aren’t opened on Dialogue on the same image/concept.

    As it is the reader doesn’t see the comments until they click on the comment button, so for those who wish to see photos and no text, just don’t click, refrain yourself! ;), but I guess moving it to another page entirely instead of them appearing directly below the image shouldn’t be that much of a hindrance to discussion.

    My 2 cents.

  137. ABELE…

    that is a good point…my original idea was that this would be a good discussion between the photographer and the audience…this has not happened…at least not with the selected singles…anyway, still thinking…

    cheers, david


    yes, maybe this would work….comments just on the essays….the essay photographers know when their work is coming up and would be prepared for discussion…it is impossible for the “selected photographs” photographers to know exactly when their work will be published…

    ironically, i was responding to you who were feeling we did not have a place to “hang” and discuss whatever we wanted..this goes back actually to my original blog when i had four blogs…remember?? the complaint then was that there were just too many places to blog… we decided to go to just one and it made all the difference in the world…that is pretty much what i was thinking here….one blog spot….it seems to me that maybe is the only way to get the “thread” that some of you were missing….

    in any case, i will start writing stories again…i have not done that since we started BURN…that alone my drive all of you back to where we were before as a blogging platform…surely i will do whatever serves all of you best…

    one last question: do you like the way it is set up to respond directly to a comment?? it makes it easy to respond to the one person, but it also makes it difficult for some to keep up with the chronology of a discussion….or, we could number the original comments so you could have a trackback…comments on the comments would then not be numbered….for example,right now Erica has the “original” comment and we are commenting on her comment…if her comment were numbered that whoever wanted to respond to her would know where to go…get it?? hmmmmm, no perfect way to go here!!!

    cheers, david

  139. i like the idea that if a single photo really grabs us we are able to express that – positive or negative is all the better for photographers.
    there is a lot to look through here now, and perhaps that could be a reason to disallow comments under single photos.. to my mind i say stick with it for the time being.. more frequent posts under dialogue will draw people away from the photos i think.

    the esseys are comming in at a good rate.. not too frequent and plenty to get stuck into with thinking about them.

    good luck bob.. understandable to look forward to comments, even if a single photo rather than an essay.


  140. Just came home to see my single is up … After hearing that David has several hundred lined up I really was not expecting it but maybe in a couple of months. So it could be that some of the photographers would have loved to participate in the discussion – but maybe they have not noticed or noticed too late, that it was already ongoing. Just a thought.

    Sure it is tough here and there and maybe an unfair treatment that you get. But …. I mean that is what happens when you get your stuff out there. Shure I can only speak for myself here, but I rather be absolutely critisized and then I can still decide if I think the critique is right or not (I mean, sometimes a critique is simplement right), than maybe send the image to some kind of contest, get it rejected and never know the reason.

    So … hmmm … what I mean is, if I look at my images I have my own issues with them because I know a lot more. Maybe it was just the second best moment and I was too slow to get the best one – I will always be dissatisfied with the second best moment, but nobody else will know what I missed. etcetcetc.

    So I find it interesting, VERY interesting, to have critique formulated here. Whether directly under the photograph or anywhere else does not really matter, although it will probably collect more NEGATIVE voices right underneath the submission. Yeah, and I mean NEGATIVE. If I want postive ones, I just show it to my parents, they will always find it beautiful what I do. So as I just came in I have not looked at whatever comments were made under my submission yet (was just checking on DAH’s comments before going there – first things first :).

    AT the end of the day, if anybody trolls around, it just puts himself down. Anonymous or not. It is not nice to see it – and even less nice to see it here – but … There are certain things you just cannot take serious. Or at least you should not.

    So the point I want to make is, that I find critique very important. It is very seldome that you can really compare your thoughts with an image with what it generates in others …

    I have to have a tea now. Had a crazy day. Will come back to discuss whatever there is to discuss around my single a little later.

    Thanks for putting it up, David, really, really honored me! :)
    (ok, and now I will get my armor and knives :)))

  141. I’m happy with the “reply” function as it is. If someone wants to see chronology, they can just look at the date & time it was posted.

    Thanks for asking our feedback on this decision, David. I know there are as many opinions here as there are posters, but at least you can get an idea of where the consensus might lie.

    I do think one of the unique features of Burn as an online magazine is its interactive component. Yes, it can get messy but, as you often say, so is the creative process!


  142. Ok, I fear my comment got a little lost up there as a reply, so I repost it down here….

    Just came home to see my single is up … After hearing that David has several hundred lined up I really was not expecting it but maybe in a couple of months. So it could be that some of the photographers would have loved to participate in the discussion – but maybe they have not noticed or noticed too late, that it was already ongoing. Just a thought.

    Sure it is tough here and there and maybe an unfair treatment that you get. But …. I mean that is what happens when you get your stuff out there. Shure I can only speak for myself here, but I rather be absolutely critisized and then I can still decide if I think the critique is right or not (I mean, sometimes a critique is simplement right), than maybe send the image to some kind of contest, get it rejected and never know the reason.

    So … hmmm … what I mean is, if I look at my images I have my own issues with them because I know a lot more. Maybe it was just the second best moment and I was too slow to get the best one – I will always be dissatisfied with the second best moment, but nobody else will know what I missed. etcetcetc.

    So I find it interesting, VERY interesting, to have critique formulated here. Whether directly under the photograph or anywhere else does not really matter, although it will probably collect more NEGATIVE voices right underneath the submission. Yeah, and I mean NEGATIVE. If I want postive ones, I just show it to my parents, they will always find it beautiful what I do. So as I just came in I have not looked at whatever comments were made under my submission yet (was just checking on DAH’s comments before going there – first things first :).

    AT the end of the day, if anybody trolls around, it just puts himself down. Anonymous or not. It is not nice to see it – and even less nice to see it here – but … There are certain things you just cannot take serious. Or at least you should not.

    So the point I want to make is, that I find critique very important. It is very seldome that you can really compare your thoughts with an image with what it generates in others …

    I have to have a tea now. Had a crazy day. Will come back to discuss whatever there is to discuss around my single a little later.

    Thanks for putting it up, David, really, really honored me! :)
    (ok, and now I will get my armor and knives :)))

  143. I am very confused by the current reply method..I understand how to use it, but I don’t have the time to keep looking back..

    I would prefer all new comments at the end..just my opinion..

  144. I like the comments. I ok with the idea of comments open for essays but not necessarily for individual pics. I’m with Patricia on this one, I gain a lot from reading the discussion, and I feel I can pretty easily dismiss the comments that are snarky or simply not constructive. I’m also not too sure I understand the concern…if a viewer doesn’t want to see the comments, as someone said just don’t click on the link that expands the comment section.

    I mean, even in a museum you’re allowed to talk about the exhibits :) I don’t understand the need to limit the discussion, and, to me, having the comments about each individual image or essay under it helps the cohesiveness of the whole place. For me the real-world analogy is discussing a piece of art while standing in the gallery in front of it. I’m afraid that comments on 3 – 5 images (which is what seems to be the life expectancy of comments continuing for an image after other newer images are posted), plus comments on essays, would quickly leave the Dialogue “room” resembling a multi-dimensional ping-pong tournament… add to that the replies that get buried in the middle of the thread, and I don’t think anyone could keep up….

    As far as the reply function, as I said earlier I like it. What I don’t like about it is not necessarily losing the chronology, but losing/not seeing posts that are made as replies because, as erica says, I don’t have time to look back through everything. For instance, by sheer chance I just discovered an entire conversation that I missed, because it took place in replies….and the “new posts” sidebar was filled with comments on the new image.

    What about my idea of a reply function that, if you click the “reply” button, places your post at the end of the thread, but inserts a link in the top of your post that points back to the post to which you are replying? I still think this would give us the benefits of both methods….

    No matter what I’ll be here to try and absorb and watch and participate….so, forward! forward!

    And don’t forget to shoot some, too :)

    good light,

  145. David;

    I feel the way Burn is operating is nigh on perfect. Being able to comment on the essays and single pics is great. Sure there are unhelpful comments and trolls, but you get them every time you show your work; whether it be magazine or a gallery. You just have to develop a thick skin… Listen to the peers you respect and write the naysayers off.

    By having separate discussions on the photos and essays it should keep Dialogue more on topic. I also feel that Dialogue (like Road Trips was) is the jewel in the crown of Burn. Often the off-topic and conversation twists provide vast amounts of valuable info. As long as it’s not line after line of Youtube links etc.

    Take the recent discussion on Trent Parke’s recent work; I think it was valuable and opened a few eyes to another photographer’s work/technique.

    Replying to specific comments is great too, because it puts your comments in context. Sure it can be a bit hard to keep up with comments, but that’s the trade off for such great discussions… Just a few random thoughts!

    The only extra thing I thought of would be a link specifically to your comments? As we all look forward to catching up with your comments!!

    Cheers everyone.


    i do not see any way around having to go back one way or the other…the old way, if you got behind , you had to scroll back and pick up where you left off…this way, you must do the same in a different way..but, we can set it up either way…

    the more i investigate the best way for “commenting” for most people , the more i realize most readers here do not blog….the ones who do not blog, and the ones who also do not read the comments, find the blogging obtrusive in terms of the experience of just looking at photographs and essays…they say, why not just keep the blogging under “Dialogue” because you can still talk about the published photographs as much as you want without disturbing the purity of just looking at pictures…the non-bloggers say that if i go to essays and singles without the ability to make comments that i serve everyone….they can have their pictures straight up and the bloggers can go to “Dialogue” as they always did…just as in a normal magazine..letters to the editor, but not letters for each story per se…i should also point out, that when we have “work in progress” up soonest, there will be ample opportunity for chat based on the work at hand…or we could create any number of scenarious where specific pictures are discussed…

    the photographers whose work is presented have not been a part of most of the conversation, which was my original intention…

    as i said earlier, i think when i start writing stories as per “road trips”, or others write stories for “Dialogue” , then you may see an entirely different animal….

    anyway, i only have the readers interest here at heart….so please make your feelings known…

    cheers, david

  147. “the photographers whose work is presented have not been a part of most of the conversation, which was my original intention…”

    as I mentioned before this might well have to do with the fact that they do not notice when their submissions are up. Could there be a way to inform then maybe the day before? I am sure that would help.
    So when you put an single image up – you probably already know the one for the next day. You could sent a quick note via email. Some prewritten text that is the same for everybody. So it would just be little additional work (I hope). It would surely help get the discussion going. IF the photographer wants to. But on the other side, why would he submit if he did not want to have an discussion?

  148. David, off subject but maybe not. Maybe EVERYTHING is on-subject here on “Dialogue”…

    Regarding the music for “Falling Into Place,” I’ve asked my niece’s partner who is a superb classical guitarist to send me some mp3s of his music. He’s happy to have me use his work and will be sending me some non-copyrighted options within the next day or two. I’ll email you & Anton my new music mp3 ASAP.


  149. David,

    How about creating a post under Dialog that has the same name as the photo or essay. Then close comments on the photo or essay post and then people can comment and discuss away from the main image or essay. Maybe include a smaller version of the image.

    Of course this may be too redundant. Just thinking out loud…..

  150. one more point about comments and RSS feed: with my RSS reader (Netnewswire under mac OSX) I can only get 20 news items per refresh… I’m quite lazy (it’s not true, most of the daytime I am far from my personal mac ;) and I typically refresh the feeds once per day, so the newest 20 messages replaces all what was written before… Anton, is it possible to increase the limit on recent items shown in RSS in order to match the huge quantity of comments that typically arises daily?


  151. David

    As a regular reader of Burn Magazine I think you should leave the option to comment both singles and essays below the work published. Some of the comments are really interesting to read, some lead to a dead end, but so do “real life” conversations. As you are also planning a printed version at some point, it would be easy to pick up the most commented, controversial or…..pictures.

    If one gets their image published here they should remember it was chosen by David. I think that is a merit in itself. Nobody should be inhibited to submit images, because of the comments others might leave.

    All the best


  152. Google reader lets all the post pile up until I read them. Plus, I can read them on any computer. I could not follow any of this discussion without an RSS reader.

  153. David,

    I’m not communicating very well, I think…you do have to go back either way to read – my challenge is knowing how far and when to go back….with the replies, I may never even see a new post that’s inserted up above, unless I go to the very start of the thread and scroll through. If all new posts are at the end, at least I can go to the end and then scroll backwards until I see something I know i’ve read, and then start from there.

    Did you see the example of my idea that I tried, “replying” to erica? Doing it that way would put all new comments at the end, but still preserve the ability to click back and see the context of the reply…

    One other idea…I know this isn’t a “forum”, but one of the internet forums I read regularly has a neat feature 9might be common, I don’t know). When you go into a thread, (in our case, a post), the site software remembers what the last post was that you read, and moves you to that point. Obviously if you clear out cookies, or use multiple machines, you get the whole thread again. But it makes it really easy to read new posts. It also “flags” threads that have new content for you…

    Just some ideas. I think that you have to do what you feel will work best, and also what is easiest from a maintenance (both code and content) standpoint for yourself….

    I think also that once we get something up and goign for a while, we’ll all get used to it and adapt…for the navigational part, at least.

    I do think having a place for comments is important….I personally see no difference if it’s “under” the image or on it’s own post inside dialogue…the only way I could see challenges would be if we tried to talk about all of the images in one post in dialogue….

  154. Reply to David Alan harvey

    This is me tryign my example again….the link above will take you to my reply to up yonder somewhere….


    But I think I like it other way around….the “real” reply would be here, and the pointing link would be to the person’s post to which you are replying….I tried it with the one for erica…and you can click to see the context, then use the back arrow to get back down to the “bottom”….

    Argh! hard for me to explain visual sort of flow like this in words….


  155. pete, I’m picturing something like a modification of what you have on 37th frame….

    if I click on the photo critique of the day, I can get a page of just pictures….but then when I click a picture, I get all the comments with it.

    Couldn’t we do that with the daily images? Have the comments hidden underneath unless you click…if you open them, then it would be very cool if it took you to the last one you read…that way you don’t have to hunt…

    and if you want to enjoy the images with no comments….don’t click on the little tiny thing at the bottom that says “comments”….there could be next/back buttons to get you to the next or previous image (sans comments)…

    the best of both worlds?

  156. I have this vision in the back of my head of Anton….pulling out his hair and saying “you want it to be able to do *what*?!?


    As long as we can see/submit work and discuss and continue this great community, I’m in….please don’t take my ideas as anything other than brainstorming suggestions….


  157. David,

    Maybe sending out a quick email (if you’re not already) to the photographer who’s work is going up would prove helpful in getting them to the table.

    And a request by you to come and and discuss the image if they were inclined would not likely be denied. :)

  158. I think it is because BURN is reeeeaaaaly slooooooow on my computer. So I would avoid going baaaaack and foooooorth to check a reply.

  159. I find quoting the easiest way to handle the flow on forums. Never liked threaded message boards. The arrangement here is pretty hard to follow.

  160. JIM…

    please explain….i know for sure after trying every single method out there , that someone will always tell me that “this system is hard to follow”…i have heard that when we had chronological comments, newest comments at the top, and the old “road trips” comments on the bottom method…is there really an easy way that everyone would agree is an easy way??? since i had never even seen a blog , did not know what a blog was before i started this one, i am not joking when i ask you for an explanation!!! thanks for you input always…

    cheers, david

  161. Just trying to figure out a way that gives the people that like the “reply” feature the same kind of function, but makes it so that all of the unread messages (replies and just new comments) go to one spot so that things don’t get lost….

    One thing I do like about the “reply” feature is that I can click it even when in the midst of reading, and don’t have to scroll down and then back up again when I’m done….right now it’s just frustrating trying to find all of the new comments…


  162. “lassal, my postcard to you came back to me – I need to send you another!
    Is the address still on your web site? Are you still doing this project?
    And how is the little dog?”

    I am writing this comment here instead of in a direct reply to you, because I am afraid you would miss it (just as I almost missed yours :)
    I read you got your postcard back. That is odd. The old address still is valid and everything that comes here during the next couple of weeks is supposed to reach me because it will automatically be send on.

    Yes, “A Stranger’s Wish” is not only still on, it is more “on” than ever :)
    Only with slight modifications in the concept, which also reflects on the postcard. DAH, Bob, Joe, David B, Eric and me (hope I did not forget anybody) had a long discussion about it – in the light of some changes that were required to get it out of the “workshop”-clothes. So let me write you separately about it. And I will update my website asap! I am just really in a hectic right now.

    Hey, Andrew, I find it REALLY COOL that you wrote! Lets make this work out. I’d definitvely like to meet you in person.


    little dog is very excited – he is always happy when something is happening :) Thank you for asking

  163. lassal…sent to your “info@” address….if that’s not a good one, please click on my name here, and then on my page clicking myname will send me an email.

    All, especially DAH
    A string of very strong images I have liked very much here, in the last few days….I find myself not saying much about them because there are already very good comments, and I don’t want to just add another “wow, that one moves me, too”. But it’s true.

    good light, all.

  164. D A H

    will you be in london next week by any chance?

    i´ll be about over the next week.. field trip with students and it would be superb to catch you and drink tea… maybe even let the wee blighters watch you crit some photos for me.. now.. that would show them a little piece of priceless reality.
    skypename – bophoto
    if possible maybe email your phone number and i will call you about it… it´s high time for a chat and hoping you agree..

    as an aside – i find this place really easy to get to grips with, and the reply works good for me as it is easier to find my last comment and any replies than it is to look through all.. although that probably means i read less.. which is probably a good thing for my family :ø)

    much love

  165. AND TO ALL…
    any of you in london? paul? maybe.._? joni – still stuck in cardiff_?

    plans are exhibition trips and the like .. lots to see.. if anyone is about would be great to finally meet someone from here to prove that you are not simply one person with a highly schizophrenic tenancy..

    my mail from yesterday seems to have not appeared.. so..
    THOUGHTS FOR ANTON – shooting in japan wiv dem gangsta bad-bwoys.,.

  166. I am going to take the liberty and pass on the good news – Panos is free

    his words
    Case dismissed.. Not even an infraction.. No ticket.. No fine… No money to be paid.. No criminal record..!
    Nothing.. Free.. I’m going to play lotto!!!!

  167. AKAKY: I definitely will not be in London this coming week.

    AKAKY IRL: You got that right.

    AKAKY: In fact, I definitely won’t be going anywhere any time soon. IRL is a real stick in the mud.

    AKAKY IRL: Hey, I was in New Jersey once.

    AKAKY: That was for a funeral, dumbass; funerals don’t count.

    AKAKY IRL: Why not? It was a nice day.

    AKAKY: That’s true. If you had to have a funeral, that was the day for it.

  168. DAVID,
    Why not set up the reply button like it’s a qoute button. If you reply it’s displayed as the newest comment. But the post you reply to is quoted in your reply. And if that post was very long let’s just make the quote in to a link? Just a few suggestions and what I think could work.


  169. David,
    I hope you are very pleased with your new creation. Every time I log on I know I will find something interesting and provacative. Congratulations. As to comments, perhaps establish something that allows offline conversations directly with the photographer? I’m not particularly sophisticated at all of this, but in terms of following the dialogue, it doesn’t seem that difficult to skim by poster name and topic. My suggestion, do whatever is easiest and most efficient for you, since you are clearly investing a lot of your time in this new endeavor and for all of us, time is the most precious commodity.

    thank you again.


  170. DAVID BOWEN: I could do London on the morning of the 30th. I’m taking a plane from Gatwick to Helsinki in the afternoon, but I could potentially make a detour to London city centre for an hour, as I have not yet booked the Cardiff – Gatwick transport. (Either coach to Heathrow and then Gatwick or coach to Victoria and then train to Gatwick).

    ALL: Maybe the main page could have two columns, one showing the last three image features and the other the last thre dialogue entries, both shortened a bit?

  171. I figured the case would be dismissed. Just from Panos’ description of what happened, it sounded like a frustrated cop working out his frustrations on the public he is supposed to be protecting and serving.

  172. Working under two deadlines and no time to write at length, but I would greatly prefer you retain the comments and reply section under BOTH the individual photographs and the photo essays… just as an example of why it is desirable… the extensive dialogue that ensued over Katharina Hesse’s ‘Bangkok’ photo was quite interesting, informative, occasionally rancourous, and very thought-provoking… and evolved over the course of a week… I seriously doubt the same dialogue would have been generated or would have evolved in the same way if it had been mixed in with the many other topics and cocktail party chatter of the open dialogue forum.

    I also like the “nested” reply structure (i.e. ability to reply to specific comments, or just reply in general) of the site just as it is now and see no need to change it.

    My two cents…

    Back in 4 or 5 days…

  173. Hello All!!

    Back after a short break, well not a break really… we just moved across the country so far from it. The Chance’s are now residents of the fine city of Denver. With sunshine most days and the Rocky Mountains a stones throw away I am very happy to be here. Totally out of touch with the blog, I have to admit, but did see that PANOS was let off. Good for you mate, the ONLY way things should have resolved, sounds like Akaky summed things up pretty well.

    Haven’t had any internet for the past week which has been a little weird, but not a bad thing, its nice to take a break from the ‘pooter for a while. Anyways hope everyone is doing well, look forward to getting in to the dialogue soon.

    If anyone here is in the Denver area, let me know, lets drink a beer or something.

    Bye for now,


  174. In Reply To:

    (The following is a reply to Mike R’s post over in the section under the Photograph Mongolia by Michael Loyd Young. I have placed it here in order to not detract from the discussion over there that rightly should be about the image itself.)

    Hi Mike,

    I have to confess, I am one of the ones that truly does not understand the concern about the discussion under the daily photos. I find them beneficial.

    I hope you don’t object to me using your comments in this way (I would normally say that if you do, please let me know and I’d delete them…but we don’t have that ability here, so please accept apologies in advance if I offend)….anyway, your comments are well-expressed and, it seems, reflect a concern for the well-being of burn and the readership here. But I truly don’t understand the concern, so I am asking in order to have the opportunity to perhaps see what I’m missing…

    “I’m not sure that this is the place to bring questions such as yours (and sometimes mine) up as they can detract from the subject at hand (enjoying the photograph) and the limitations that a brief comment (we don’t want to hijack the thread).”

    I would disagree – I think this forum is absolutely the place…but it of course David’s call, and vision. I just thought that part of it was to not only view and internalize new and diverse work, but to discuss it honestly as well.

    I do agree that we should be respectful and adult in our comments, not detracting and saying something just for the sake of “tearing down”, or hijacking attention.

    “I would like to see some sort of discussion board at Burn that would allow debate of such issues separated from the daily posts of photographs”.

    If we are going to discuss the photographs, why does it matter if the comments are located directly under the image or on a link that you must click to see? If someone doesn’t care to read the comments under the images here, it’s easy….simply don’t click on the “# comments” link the first time…and you don’t see them. And if for some reason they do appear, it’s not as if the page force-feeds them to the viewer. Action must be taken to read them…

    One reason, for me at least, to leave them on the same page is because I frequently scroll back and forth between the image and the comments, trying to see what others see. This is *after* I’ve let the image “soak in” so to speak, for myself….so as to not be “contaminated” by the comments (yes, I definitely agree that can happen as well). The other problem I see with putting *all* of the discussion in the dialogue thread is that it will quickly become so jumbled with discussions of different images that it will be impossible to keep track.

    One suggestion I propose is to make it a little easier to *NOT* view the comments under the daily images by making a click of the “comments” button necessary every time you visit.

    Another addition I think that would make the daily image feel more “gallery like” would be to place “next image” and “last image” buttons near the bottom of the frame when the image is centered…that way, if you want to simply view the photographs, you could do so.

    So those two things, along with my idea for a modified “reply” function that somehow keeps replies from much earlier posts from being lost amongst things already read (by putting replies at the end, but prefacing them automatically with a link like I use above), are my thoughts on any structural changes that I’d like to see….but no matter what, I think the place is rocking and we will all figure out how to do what we need with it anyway…

    As long, of course, as everyone keeps shooting and pushing themselves to produce new work (and submitting it)….and of course as long as David and everyone who make this place actually happen (Anton..and anyone who I don’t know to name) continue their generous contribution of time and effort…

    Anyway, those are my thoughts.

    good light to all,

  175. david alan harvey


    i will be traveling all day tomorrow and will not be able to update a new photograph until tomorrow evening….many thanks for your patience…

    cheers, david

  176. David

    Are you going to Perpignan festival this summer? I don’t know exactly at this moment but I would like to visit “Visa pour l’Image” this year and meybe meet you there.

  177. Hi Andrew, thanks for the reply. I agree with you that the comments should stay where they are; they are integral to the success of Burn for me. My point is that sometimes a comment is made that is not directly about the photograph being shown. Joe and others have made some good points here and I feel that they should have a place where they can be made at length and answered in similar fashion, without distracting viewers from the comments about the actual photograph being shown.

    I’m not sure that it would work as we are all photographers here and immediately start to use photographs as examples of the point we are trying to make. So we insert links and it all gets complicated. Might be worth a try. I agree that Burn rocks! A really special place. I agree that Next and Previous buttons would help.


  178. david alan harvey


    i am 90% sure to go…that would be terrific if we could meet at Visa!!!

    cheers, david

  179. david alan harvey


    “next” and “previous” buttons a good idea…please let me find out if this is possible…ok, running to plane….

    cheers, david

  180. panos skoulidas

    Have a great new life in Denver..
    and thank U for noticing…
    Yep , Akaky is right…!
    Anyway , our justice system prevailed…
    Let me go with a patriotic cliché ..(no sarcasm)..
    America is great..and hopefully Obama will restore
    our reputation…
    Very proud to be an American citizen..
    regardless my occasional foul mouthness…
    Good morning Y’all..

  181. Mike R

    “Joe and others have made some good points here and I feel that they should have a place where they can be made at length and answered in similar fashion, without distracting viewers from the comments about the actual photograph being shown. ”

    yes, then dialogue is definitely the place :)

    Safe travels and successful moving to you!

    good light to all,

  182. I’m sorry to have missed the discussion here on Trent Parke’s “Christmas Tree Bucket” project. This is the kind of piece that really made me “work” as a viewer. I’m a huge fan of Trent’s black and white work, and have found the images he created for Minutes to Midnight and Dream/Life to be a tremendous inspiration to me personally as a photographer; but I have sensed that he has struggled a bit to find a new “vision” since departing from that very particular style with which he made his mark. It’s certainly a testament to his commitment to growing as an artist that he totally and wholeheartedly jettisoned all traces of his previous style for this new work, and went through a couple of experimentations before settling into “Bucket”. I sense that even better work will follow, once the Parr/Soth influences find a way to live with Trent’s “native” style…

    I like “Bucket” for its humor and strangeness; I also think there is an intellectual quality to it, a kind of post-modern vibe, that is new for Trent. Whereas his earlier work was pretty much pure vision, this piece has a lot more self-awareness, irony, social commentary, etc happening in it. And yet at the same time it is personal. I can feel the sense of being trapped in a suburban nightmare, the kind of thing that any artist dreads as a soul-killing environment…but rather than letting it kill his soul, he made art out of it. I think the whole story of the “bucket”, with Trent getting physically ill and puking up into this strange symbol of manufactured domesticity, is a perfect little “caption” to the piece. You really don’t need anything but that little story to evoke the strange world of summertime Christmas trees and oversized Easter Bunnies that he captures with such irony.

    I do miss the “old” Trent, as his earlier stuff is much more the kind of work I enjoy, and while his use of this 1970’s era color-family-photo-album visual style is masterful and completely appropriate for this piece, I look forward to the next chapter in the Trent Parke evolution. I suspect when the kids get a little older things will change once again, and he will surprise us with something entirely different yet again.

  183. brother chris :))

    I am so happy you’ve seen ‘Bucket’…i absolutely love love this story. Marina and i (who isnt) are also a major fan of Trent’s Minutes & Dream/Life (ever see his sports shots?) work, and when he ditched b/w, many were surprised, ‘disappointed”…i’ve followed the color since (Narelle’s work, btw, is brilliant! and still filled with oneric fucked-beauty) and though i liked and respected the new work (brilliant repetition of a particular moment on a particular place), but i love and admire about him is his doggedness to delve back. for those who flick back and forth in their own work between b/w and color, it might not make sense, but i can tell you first hand how significant the differences are in shooting both: it is a complete physically and emotional re-arrangement, particularly when your body reacts to the world around you (and your head) in b/w…you must learn to ‘re-see’ re-exprience the world…’cause what many dont always understand is that photograhing the world for some (at least for me) is not about ‘seeing’ the world or ‘capturing’ the world, but swomething else…what i love about Bucket is it, in some ways, is more faithful to the world outside of trent. in other words, my own b/w frustrates me casue it is singularly about my dreams, my thoughts, my physical reaction to place and memory housed in places and in my own life/body…i always felt the same with trent’s b/w…and yet, this color work is out-of-body…observational and fucking wacked…as i said, check out Inland Empire…both operating at an amazing level of acute observation and dream logic…and so so funny and frightening…the terror and the joy of the quotidian….when i saw bucket, i couldnt get the damn images out of my head (as a story)…and couldnt shoot for a while…still digesting it, after joe introduced it….so….

    go get Inland this weekend…it has to be available somewhere on obx…


  184. Same here with Trent’s work but the surreal head space of having culture shock within your own culture came through brilliantly. I was having many of the same experiences this Christmas season walking through the season, looking around as if in a dream, muttering to myself this is just too weird, am I really of this social reality? That hurling in a bucket would be the creative nexus, the glue, around which the essay would ultimately revolve is such a sweet piece of irony on several levels. It’s all conceptually brilliant and interesting in that very few of the photos “work” standing on their own, they just are not that strong as individuals, but as a whole draw you right into a wonderful social commentary from both within the epic and outside it at the same time. A great lesson there in storytelling for me and perhaps as great an influence as looking for sunshine through rain.

  185. yes, interesting that idea that “bucket” is more observational of the real world, whereas the earlier work was more interior, more of a process of looking for dream-images within the real world. And so much of the shift seems to come from having to deal with the “reality” of raising a family. I’m sure in one sense Trent was kind of forced to step outside of his dream-world and had to confront the realities of modern suburban life–but with the kicking-and-screaming (and puking) resistance of an artist. Yes, definitely a David Lynch kind of treatment…

    Still, I think this is a stepping-stone piece–the “sophomore album”, as it were…it is brilliant, and I can appreciate it for sure, but the difference between this piece and his earlier work is that the earlier work was unprecedented; it showed a completely original vision…whereas the new work has loads of “influences”, or at least has a lot of similarity to other photographers–and other Magnum photographers at that. There is no fault in this; as I always say, a good artist borrows, but a great artist steals…In order to grow beyond the spark of originality that “makes” you an artist, you have to throw your native tendencies to the wind and try out new things, step out of your comfort zone, learn new languages, travel the earth, whatever it takes…but hopefully, eventually, you come back home.

    Anyway, the thing I love most about the piece is that it has a real sense of humor to it. It’s like, yeah, suburban life is creepy, but it’s fucking hilarious if you can let yourself laugh at it, and you gotta laugh at it if you want your soul to survive it…

  186. and then, disappear’d and moving, like a thin’d skirt of curtain across the face of an open window, goes Wyeth….

    for whatever reason, and all reasons, I have loved Wyeth….have never quite understood the disdain blanketed upon him by the modern art world, but maybe i have too personalized his work, since it has been apart of my own life, my own childhood. As an artist convinced of the necessity of introspection and the need to sharpen this, the need to pulley over the hermetic and abstract winding of images and words as a way to speak about that which remains nearly unspeakable, my entire life as a writer and a reader, my life as a maker of things and carnivorous nibbler of things, my heart has always belonged to the modern, to eschew easy dilectics or easily understood objects, for all that is wonderous and dark in this world. Is it possible to love joyce and perec, beckett and kathy acker, kline, rothko,, beuys, duschamp, viola and still need Wyeth. For me, the answer is of course. Maybe it is the childhood that i have not yet been able to transcend. I grew up in love with Wyeth and wobbled at the pull of my parents inside the rooms of the Brandywine museum, in love with the strange and singularly personal paintings of wyeth since i was a kid and long long before Helga splashed across the coffee tables of the country, the beginning not at all Christina’s world, but the gold and austere landscapes, the haunted and unmistakably ghost-licked interiors, the algebra of loss and recalculation….though beuys, eventually, would be come one of my heros, just as those twin giacos (giacometti and giacomelli), just as Antunes would occupy my heart, rothko the moments i felt alone, pollack when i was drinking and at a loss to express anything but violent, earthy gesture, still there was always those landscpaes, those interiors, those family dramas of silence and earth and white wind and black hares….and still, for whatever reason, the paintings, both the egg temperas and the watercolors, resonate inside me….maybe it is obdurate arrogance, maybe it’s the inability to jettison my childhood wonder and started surprise as those paintings, but a part of me feel bereft with his death….his politics, as depicted by others and often his embrace of ‘for america” politicians, left me confused, one thing is for certain, the paintings till come back to me in dreams…he painted my dream life, o r a part of my dream life…is it possible to tell that my dreams were composed of both his interiors and experteriors just as Duchamps “Etant donnés” live inside my head too…..

    a part of my childhood gone…the peeling away of all things….

    What is the purpose of Burn….what is the purpose of what each of us in our own way sets a course to investigate, reflect, argue, auger, and place small made objects up for viewing….

    at least for me, it is twined….all those things which speak to us of what we are….no matter the course or language or appearance of them…

    i feel grieved with his death, just as i feel a boney hurt when thinking of Wilmarth, or beuys or joyce writing his life out when the world turned aside….

    all those things….the interior and the exterior…and how fucking arrogant we are to think that we know….

    a simple picture from Editor Harvey….and then the goodbyes which stay with us, long after the disappearing….

    that is, for me, the language of what shall remain….



  187. Tomorrow will be a very special day I am sure Patricia…. I wish I would be in Washington on this historic moment…. I think few of our friends might be there. I look forward to seeing what images we get from the inauguration here on Burn!


  188. panos skoulidas

    Charles P,
    Tom H,
    Tim R,
    Katia R..
    I will be doing a ROADTRIP
    to Seattle next week..
    from the 1st till 6th of feb..
    I will also have a car…
    Please send me info here how we can
    all meet up at some point …

  189. SRINIVAS…

    no limit…BUT i would recommend as few as possible…10-20 is probably about right….most photographers really kill themselves when they just cannot edit down tight..please try to do this…no juror wants to see ALL of your good pictures…they can “get” who you are and what you are doing with a good edit on your part….repetition is your enemy…be clear , succinct….

    cheers, david

  190. David, I could be wrong but something in the back of my mind says the images had to be acquired in the 2008 calendar year. I thought I read that on Road Trips at one time. I did not see that stipulation on your EPF page this time.

  191. KURT…

    i think the jurors are going to be looking for something contemporary….that is just logical…but, there are no time frame restrictions per se…i am by nature “restriction averse”…

    i would imagine the jurors are more likely to choose a project which has been started recently and they can see that funding would lead it to completion in the near future….however, i could imagine exceptions where someone started a project years ago and funding would help to make it whole…

    bottom line: you have all the freedom in the world…

    cheers, david

  192. This is one persons opinion, but an opinion nevertheless – Having someone insulting people left right and centre does nothing for Burn.

    It’s embarassing, and there is no place for this person’s style of commentary (particularly when high) in any kind of educated discourse.

    Its obvious that there is some affection for this person, but I (and I think others) find this person’s tone particularly unpalatable. While I wouldn’t suggest banning this person from the forum, some aggressive moderating of the individuals venomous comments might be appropriate? perhaps the ones littered with obscenities?


  193. BEN…

    you are not the first person to make this suggestion…..

    when i first read Panos here a couple of years ago, i thought the same thing..when i met him in person, i realized it was all kind of a Lenny Bruce style joke…others who know him think the same…photography is quite literally saving the man’s life…but that still does not give him the right to use expletives in a way offensive to the rest of the readers here who discuss photography here with style and decorum…

    i invite freedom of speech above all things, and BURN would die if everyone agreed with everyone else, but yes yes we do not need offensive words to grasp a differing point of view…i do not want to literally censor anyone and it would be a shame to have an editor read first the comments and then “approve”, but i am hearing you loud and clear….

    Panos, if you read this, please take note….you are my friend…you know that..you also know i have extended my hand… and i do not know Ben at all…and i do not always agree with what Ben says …but, Ben and others have a point…you have come a long way Panos ….a long long way….i know you have a big big heart….and you would befriend Ben in person in a minute….and your rambles can be right on….but, if you would be kind enough and large enough to just cut down on the obscenities, you would show yourself to one and all to be the man that i think you are…when you do your text for your book, you can and should do whatever you want….expletives actually are part of your essay on Venice….but, in this forum i would most appreciate Panos lite, or better, Panos as intelligent as you are …ranting cool…opposition to the norm cool..overdoing obscenities not cool….please take this paragraph as my ultimate expression of friendship….

    cheers, hugs, peace, david

  194. David:

    I started to read essay responses, and then gave up. I don’t believe that this should be an IM exchange, nor a place for banal comments. What it should be is an area for criticism of the essay. (Crit-i-cism Noun 2 The analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.)

    The criticism I do see consists of one of three basic comments:
    1. Hey, I love your stuff
    2. Remarks on specific images
    3. Hey, I hate your stuff

    In a nutshell, essays are the personal expression of subject matter (person, event, idea, etc.). The most successful elicit an emotional/intellectual response and the viewer forms a new perspective about the subject and/or the photography. A comment on one of my personal essays was a one-word review — “disturbing”. I have often wished that all of my work is found to be that provocative.

    And some unsolicited advice to the photographers who in answering questions about their work start sliding down that slippery slope of explaining what the image was supposed to do in the first place. Stop. I have never heard Jim Nachtwey comment on any of his images.

    So please, let’s reserve the Responses Section for the essays, and find some other place on the site to post rants.

  195. BOB…

    good advice….and your observations so so true…we have been bantering back and forth behind the scenes on whether or not to have selected photographs and essays open to comments at all…as an editor, would you do it?? the comments for photographs could all be in the upcoming “work in progress” where constructive critique could be most useful…anyway, thanks for your critique of the critique…i think you are right on it…

    cheers, david

  196. I need to offer another perspective here.

    Yes, there are lots of I love it/I hate it comments posted about essays. And yes, some people simply focus on individual images and critique them while ignoring the context. But–and this is a BIG “but”–enough of these comments lead to interesting discussions of larger photographic questions and issues. And that’s what keeps me coming back to check out the latest comments.

    On Road Trips David usually got the ball rolling by asking questions when he’d post a new thread. And David has said he’d like to do this here on BURN as soon as he has time, but I’d like to say I am finding the organic way our discussions have evolved to be most beneficial. I like that they are community generated and elicit marvelously different points of view. Rather than depending on DAH to come up with significant topics to discuss, each essay and selected photo is serving as a jumping off point for the community. To me, this is a healthy development.

    If comments were eliminated from essays and selected photos, I fear that would close down a lot of possibilities for discussion. I’m afraid it would also put David in the position of having to come up with new questions/threads on Dialogue. As if the man doesn’t have enough to do already!

    I vote for trying this way awhile longer and see what happens. I personally think BURN is really burning!!!


  197. i need to wholeheartedly agree with Patricia.
    i am learning a lot from the discussions that
    help me to think in different ways about my
    own work.
    the dialogue under essays and photos is invaluable.
    i vote for keeping things as they are.


  198. panos skoulidas

    Ok… Cigarette break..
    I also agree with Pat and Katia!!!
    … ok, gotta go back..
    I don’t wanna let Vixen all alone waiting!!!

  199. panos skoulidas

    Big day for me mañana ..
    I’m meeting Charles P..
    and then Katia R…
    Can’t wait…!!!!!

  200. Didn’t say to eliminate the Responses, I suggested to make them relevant. Sorta like panos’s latest response…Not.!

    Please put the diarrhea of the printed word in another section.

  201. Bob, many of us have been online & in-person friends for a long time. On Road Trips I guess you’d have described many of our posts as “diarrhea of the printed word” but it was how we kept up with one another’s lives, both professionally and personally. Some of us have missed such opportunities since BURN was launched. However, David has made it clear that such posts as Panos’ belongs right here in the Dialogue section.

    Hey, Panos, give Katia and Charles a big hug for me too!



    i will take heed to your wishes and keep things as they are…what i do think we may all want to consider is how this will all go down once we have a lot of material in “work in progress”…at that point you may want to drop commenting on the main essays, but maybe not…let’s see…in any case, if this works for you , then so be it…

    one of the things i also want to do is to have at least three things going on the front page at once…i just cannot technically do this now…that would take a full time web designer by my side at all times….Anton just does not have the time to be full on with managing a multi-faceted front page…in the coming months we will be trying for some funding to keep BURN not only alive but pushing out to the leading edge of publishing..what we have now is still a very crude operation compared to what i envision….so if you two know of anyone with an extra half million dollars, we can really get Burn rolling!!!

    cheers, david

    p.s. oh Patricia , i really got mad at Jesus…i had not read his comment to you until my most favorite Laura pointed it out to me…i really try hard to control myself with the anonymous snipers, but Jesus got to me!!! and , by the way, to both you and Katia, i would never in a million years deal with a blog and the inevitable failed photographer trolls and naysayers (which i really do not need in my life) IF it were not for photographers like both of you who are committed “doers”…bless you both…

  203. BOB…

    i agree with you on “relevance” under comments for essays, but Patricia’s point is quite correct also…HERE (under Dialogue) is exactly where a comment like Panos’ can be just fine…in this case , Panos is meeting up with some of our online friends in Seattle…all in all it has been quite amazing in the last year Bob how so many of us have had the chance to meet in person, do some serious editing, and generally put faces to the names…two things have made Road Trips and now Burn unique i think…(a) the face to face real time meetings (b) the actual production that comes from this group….chat yes, work yes…

    follow us closely my old friend and you will see what i mean..and we want you to join us..as a matter of fact i will put you to work picture editing…wanna do???

    cheers, david

  204. David, one thing I do do well is grantwrite and fundraise. If you have good leads to pursue, I’d be happy to lend my talents in the fundraising department to your wonderful effort here.

    hope all is well – I keep thinking about my various “lessons learned” in Oaxaca – thank you again.


  205. Yes, David, BURN is very much a work in progress and it’s going to be exciting to see how it develops. Thanks for listening to the opinions of folks like Katia, Panos & myself and being willing to keep the essays & selected photos open for comments. At least for now. We’ll see how things evolve as Works In Process gears up.

    Regarding Jesus’ snarky comment, it was just that. Trust me, I didn’t lose any sleep over it. But thanks for calling him on it. We don’t want/need that kind of stuff here on BURN.


  206. JEAN…

    see how fast i get back to people who are using the “keyword” fundraise!! (is that a word??)laughing… no matter, i know what it means…we have a big Burn meeting end of February, so let’s talk before…many thanks…

    i am headed back to Oaxaca on the 14th , but with a totally different kind of session than ours… i miss our group..what fun….do you remember the night we were all together in that little town (name??) shooting, drinking, dancing, eating, laughing, shooting some more, and well just soaking up the MOMENT?? these things are great when they happen and even greater in retrospect….

    cheers, david

  207. I come back over and over again to what I learned – thank you. Arrazola. I’m trying to figure out a block of time off later this year – either India or Latin America. Can’t decide which.

    And I am very serious in the offer of helping to fundraise. You’ve done an amazing thing here. I’d be honored to help…my contacts are in other worlds, but I know how to frame a pitch…

  208. Pat, i will totally give KATIA & CHARLES a big hug…tomorrow..
    actually i will do a little reportage too…
    hopefully Katia will introduce me to some of her “Street Kids”,
    and if im lucky i might meet baby Felix …
    tomorrow around noon…
    peace and hugs
    ( and if my good luck continues i might also see YOUNG TOM…
    so far its really warm and sunny here in Seattle….am i lucky or what!!!!!!! ???)
    peace and hugs

  209. PANOS…

    please please give big D hugs to the whole bunch!! sure wish i could be there..you know how i hate to miss a good party…..yes, yes pictures with a link….

    it makes me feel terrific that you guys are all together like this..amazing!!

    abrazos, david

  210. OK, OK. I get it. BURN is a social site for like-minded photographers. Sobeit.

    I will continue to come to the site from time-to-time to peruse the images, but refrain from reading the “Responses”.

  211. BOB…

    there is a social aspect to BURN, but mostly there is a production aspect…BURN most resembles your Mizzou Workshop…ideas come in, get developed, get published…the social side of it is a small part…you should not stop reading the comments Bob…and as i said, Dialogue (this part) is for chit chat or responding to whatever story i write….the comments under the selected singles and essays are supposed to be only about the pictures….i think if you were to go back and record the comments that came to us at Mizzou , you would find them to be quite similar to these…few photogs can express themselves in words, particularly when it comes to describing their feelings about pictures…you can, but not everyone can….

    what you may not realize also is that at BURN we have created a non-profit fund as part of the Magnum Cultural Foundation to support photographers…please click on the Emerging Photographer Fund (Grant)….10 k goes to an emerging photographer in 2009…and we are working on getting large funding to give both iconic and emerging photographers alike assignments for BURN which in the new communication lexicon is for the world..you of all people should see this potential…

    i can totally understand why some comments may seem either annoying or useless to you…but have you ever read all the letters that come in from readers at Natgeo??? yes, they always selected a few to publish..but here, at least the readers have a say ..a real say…participation…the audience is the message….and you should already see that the audience (the readers) are shooting shooting..producing some fine work..at least two books will come out of the assignments from Burn this year…your old world of publishing is gone or almost gone…however, i see more opportunities for photographers now than ever before….i see the glass half full….and with possibilities to fill it up in the most exciting ways…please call me if you have some time….

    cheers, david

  212. David, I am not sure if this is the right place for this if not I apologize, I could not find a contact link.
    If I remember correctly in one of your Road Trips blogs you said that you were interested in trying to look up the Norfolk Family from Tell It Like it Is for your new project.
    My job has me Norfolk for the better part of the next two weeks. I will have some free time and would be happy to do some leg work for you.

  213. Good morning David, I have just read the letter form EPF where I’m not a finalist. Anyway I’d like to know your opinion of my personal work because I’m working hard in this work and I’d like to know a professional criticism. Thanks a lot.

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