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Michael Hassoun
Israeli
In Israel, a large part of the male population is brought together periodically for a return to military service that contrasts dramatically from their day to day activities. Released after three years of regular service, some Israeli soldiers begin (at the age of 21 – or older for officers,) a civilian life that is interrupted by periods of reserve military duty – in Hebrew – Miluim.
Military reserve duty offers a privileged opportunity to observe a microcosm of Israeli society. Reserve units bring together men of different ages and from various walks of life. They are comprised of young students, fathers, cooks, lawyers, drivers and teachers. When on duty, reservists leave their normal life – their family, friends or a promising first date. On their return, they face financial problems, angry clients or an academic year compromised by thirty days of an involuntary break.
Israeli reservists are rightists and leftists, supporters of a tough security policy or of a unilateral dismantling of the settlements. They are, above all, civilians who become soldiers for a period of a few weeks during which they carry out missions as basic as simple patrols or as complex as combat operations when their lives might be at risk.
These periods of forced intimacy – Miluim – are catalysts of strong friendships or disagreements, stormy political debates and interesting conversations that step beyond the social or geographical borders which ordinarily connect one to homogeneous relationships. For many men, these intense dialogs soften the harsh reality of their service. They are, for numerous reservists, the reason why they are ready once again to wear their uniform. As one of them once stated: “After all, and with all due respect to ideology, when it’s time to fight, the only thing holding you from running in the other direction is the guy next you.”
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some strong photographs but i felt like the whole was let down by too many fillers. this for me was a story that needed better captions. after viewing the pictures on their own i didn’t feel like i knew much more about the life of an israeli reservist than i could have worked out for myself.
First thoughts Michael; you seem to have captured the boredom and the camaraderie of the soldier’s life.
The landscape looks bleached and barren in a beautiful way.
I like photograph 7 as it seems to show the mixture of religious and secular.
More to come.
Thanks,
Mike.
bordem.. that’s what i got from the phots (NOTE > > OF THE ISRAELI SOLDIER LIFE not PHOTS)
i really enjoyed lots of the candid shots – there is a good balance between the camp and the missions, although it would have been good to see more of the tensions which exist and which you refer to in the text.. what seems missing to me is action – then again perhaps that is also absent from the israeli soldiers life in general.
the portraits are not really doing it for me – where the soldiers are looking straight at you.. i can understand that it brings you as a snapper into the series, however i think your other work is stronger..
if this is a longer project and there is opportunity to carry on it will produce an interesting story on a misunderstood and internationally maligned life situation..
personally i feel sorry for them, having met many who have gone AWOL and cut lonely figures drifting through the indian subcontinent.
i remember one guy – motorbiking up to ladakh at the very end of the season, close to the time the road would closed.. desperately unhappy as he was with what he had done, his anger towards his officers whom gave the orders was more than palpable..
..and in goa photographing the death of the free-party scene there in 97 – being quite seriously threatened by some who for obvious reasons did not want to be photographed.
the victims in the situation over there, perhaps as with all wars, fall on both sides of the political line.
I guess you had to be there. A few interesting images, but this looks more like photos you would pass around with your buddies as a memory of your experience. A personal chronicle, perhaps. But not particularly interesting if the viewer hadn’t been part of the experience.
i enjoy this. i see it more of a personal chronicle but i think it is very well done. certainly more that photos you would shoot with your buddies… i also see a few images here that remind me of vietnam and other wars as well. i think it is very well done. there is everything. the boredom, the waiting, training, action… seems very quiet in a way… very spaced. either way i like the direction on this. very nice !
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply snapshot quality. The photos are well done. I just don’t think they have a very wide appeal. More a personal record.
Forced military service is not a concept that I can claim to understand or agree with. The photos left me feeling isolated and disconnected…maybe that was the point…maybe that’s how the soldiers felt cuz it wasn’t their choice to serve…that’s all I got right now.
I like some of the pictures just as pictures. But this is straight documentary work and for that i really need to be able to discern the angle of approach, whether directly through the images or through a supporting text. I cannot with this. It seems to be somewhat ambiguous as a story [or story in progress]
The whole situation there is incredibly complex, on all sides, and a viewpoint from this authors position should have [in my opinion] HIS position nailed to it. Now i dont have any idea what HIS position is, and thats kind of my point. Its almost like he does not have one, or cares not to show it. Which translates directly [for me] into a set of images with no story, no ‘angle’.
Just a thought.
john
i don’t know anyone that is serious about photography that doesn’t wish to have a meaningful photography project; you’ve developed all these skills of composition and capture, but you can’t find anyway meaningfully to apply it.
you know, i actually think someone should set up a support group for ‘photographers without projects’; i’m sure it will be filled to capacity with deeply frustrated people all buying old film cameras as the only remedy.
because of this, my first reaction to these images was pure envy, not my typical envy, the envy of ‘i wish I had taken that shot’ it’s more of the envy of access, the envy of knowing that this experience was soaking wet with so many things to say that are so relevant to so many of us.
maybe it’s because i got called to active duty twice during desert storm and although i spent that time state-side training, i remember all the bankruptcies that were filed during that time, or maybe it’s because i can think of all the heated impassioned debates you describe, but mostly i’m in envy because you had some pretty good seats at one of the most relevant political social situations that i think exists in our lifetime, being a soldier in Israel. Saying all of this, i don’t know if i would have shot this any differently, i wasn’t there, so i don’t know, but i sure as heck know i’d like to have tried ;-)
The images in this essay are pretty much all pretty, and there are some interesting themes, things like vigilance, the concept of ‘captors and captured’, the mood of the place, and to some extent camaraderie, but i don’t think this edit weaves these themes together with any coherence, maybe a bit of visual pace and texture, but no internal discernable lyric. you know, i’ve got a funny feeling that you do have a set of images that could say something that you ‘might’ have wanted to say, but you instead went for the most pleasing individual images to look at; i could also be wrong about that. i’d be keen to understand how you picked these images and how big of an edit you had before this last cut. Actually, can i do an edit of your work Michael ;-)
Again, i find these images pleasing to look at and i would have just thought that and moved on without mentioning anything else, but this surely has to be a case study in being drenched in so many things to say and so much visual evidence to say them, but not deciding first what it was that you wanted to say before collecting and culling the image that say those things.
i could be wrong again, but i’ve never been a fan of going out and collecting pleasing images, as many as you can for a period of time and then letting the story fall out of that set through a good edit. Maybe the first iteration might work this way as the images you do take are probably the things you are subconsciously drawn to, but after that you need to commit to a message and collect images that re-enforce that message.
without a message you’re looking to re-enforce you will walk right past many images that are imperative to that story, but not knowing ahead of time they are part of it, they will remained uncollected. i don’t need to guess this as your introduction describes things that make me think you did have something to say, but the images you collected don’t gel to reveal this.
reading in between the lines even more of what you say and describing what i feel from the images, i sense a subtle feeling ‘awkward with the situation’ the images do not project a pure comfort with the job at hand, the images are not about a team of mercenaries doing a job no different to them as banking is for me, there’s this feeling of fitting in with this almost foreign ritual-like requirement, fitting it in with the personal things that matter to each person individually. Me personally, i’d love think this was the reality, i’d love to see a photo essay ‘gel’ about this reality, and i’d love to know there is a photo essay of Israeli soldiers that are just another bunch of normal people feeling a bit awkward with the duties at hand, i think too many soldiers are getting painted with the political agenda of just a few. A bit selfish i know, but a desire all the same ;-)
I hope you wring this project for some more ‘story’; there’s so much there!
MICHAEL….JOE
Michael , why not let Joe take a shot at an edit??? might be very interesting indeed…curious myself..
Joe, go to it…we can create a link easy enough….
cheers, david
Is there any chance I can wait for the slideshow to download before I see it? Because at the moment it plays up to 15 or something and then I have to wait for ages. Clicking on the numbers doesn’t help either. It’s always a pain to watch slideshows here. A progress bar to see how much is buffered could be useful.
question to the photographer. how much ‘allowed’ were you to shoot this? I mean was it while you were doing your time in?
STELIOS…
i think it totally depends on your internet connection….for example, from my laptop i can sometimes see everything as per built, other times i have had the same problem as you….but, i will let Anton answer you since he really can explain it to you in a way that i cannot…
truly sorry for any inconvenience…naturally, we try to build these to be user friendly, but there are so so many variables…makes me crazy too!!!
cheers, david
stelios
the slideshow system preloads one image at a time; there is unfortunately nothing we can do about that. if there is a delay between the images displaying on your screen, it is directly related to the speed of your internet connection (or internet traffic at that time). Also, if you do not have the latest Flash Player, i would suggest you update that one too.
I understand the difficulties. just thought I’d mention in case there’s a solution I don’t know.thanks
cheers
Michael,
I congratulate you for being selected for the essay.
I have only read your text and watched the essay twice and have not yet looked at your web site. I kept myself from reading comments. This is my unbiased opinion.
Your text is literally disconnected from the visual.
Essay has a clear intent but I do not see it. I ll just ask questions – they will better describe my expectations:
Where is the ordinary life of these men? What makes me believe these men have a civilian life?
Where is the friendship? I see a couple of photos that go there but these are not descriptive of war time friendship.
Where is the disagreement between soldiers?
Why did you chose to add images of captives, road checks? What do you want to convey with that? Aren’t these cliche photos?
cheers
Joe “i don’t know anyone that is serious about photography that doesn’t wish to have a meaningful photography project” – yes, very true.
One essay that I’d like to see covered and probably won’t be able to do myself is “Shallom-Hello”. This is from a radio programme heard on BBC Radio 4. It is, if memory serves, the name of an organization in Israel which puts anonymous callers, Israeli and Palestinian in touch to talk about .. anything. The organization came about due to a misdialed call by a Palestinian whose wife was about to give birth and he was attempting to get her to a hospital (not an easy task in the Occupied Territories). By chance he dialed an Israeli, who phoned him back the next day to see how his wife had fared (good news).
Apparently there is little contact for the most part between Israeli and Palestinian. This leads to a “them and us’ mentality. Shalom-Hello hopes to reveal the common humanity of all participants.
I’d love to see a photographic essay which examines this phenomena: perhaps bringing people together for the first time.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Joe’s comments and questions about the editing is interesting indeed.
Do we use pictures that are less graphically successful in order to better tell the story, or do we only use the very best pictures no matter what and leave potential ‘holes’ in the narrative? Given enough time and effort we can hopefully fill all the ‘holes’ with only the very best pictures of course…but what if time is limited? What do you do?
Simon
I agree with Haik that these questions need answering:
“Where is the ordinary life of these men? What makes me believe these men have a civilian life?
Where is the friendship? I see a couple of photos that go there but these are not descriptive of war time friendship.
Where is the disagreement between soldiers?
Why did you chose to add images of captives, road checks? What do you want to convey with that?”
I was feeling disconnected when viewing this because there seemed to be no cohesive back story apparent to the viewer when looking at these images in a sequential collective. Just seeing this showed me a glimpse, a snippet of what life looks like inside the Israeli military…the imagery, however does not hint at the fact that service is forced and disruptive to the lives of those when they are called upon. To me, theses images individually are great, well executed photos, but there is more to the story that I haven’t seen…there needs to be a more cohesive tie between the text and the visual. But, this is a great idea and solid start for an essay of this importance.
Hi Michael
I sent you an image by image review of the essay, let me know if you want to play!
-Joe
Michael,
Some strong images but you don’t keep the story for me. I agree with Jim it looks like personal record, everything is ok, this is very good story, but as you see it is hard to convince the rest to your vision.
The situation tell you what angle or frame use and I think it should be only your decision.
For me you are sometimes too close and sometimes too far.
But the rest is very nice.
Keep going.
I haven’t seen this story before. I have met a lot of Israeli’s on my travels and spoken to them about there experiences, but have never seen a photo essay shot by a reservist. So of course the access is great!…
Are you still there Michael? Are you continuing this work? I hope so, it is important work and you will get some great advise here (already have) on tightening your essay. I do feel it is rather loose at this stage. But you have a lot to build on and this is a very interesting story.
While beeing travelling for many weeks, I recognize I have missed a lot of interesting photography.
Michael’s story is also very interesting, I haven’t seen too much work been done on Israeli military, and it’s great just to get the access. Photographing military issues normally is very difficult and restricted.
I don’t know if this actually was the case here, but it seems that you have difficulties getting really close to the people and your topic. As some other person here said, you sees great situations and you photograph them, but the many of the photos are not strong enough. I think.
For such a long essay, it would also be good to vary more when it comes to light, time of day etc. For me it seems like almost all the outside pictures (except no 15) are made on grey, cloudy days. How does it look like in the morning? In the night, late sun..?
If this is an ongoing project for you, I would go back and shoot without compromizes, don’t think you have to please the people in the camp, tell us how it feels to be there.. Good luck :-)
MH,
seems like a subject that may be obscured from general view, not something you see everyday, behind the scenes from a part of the world thats constantly being scrutinized. tweezers and microscope.
i find this set kind of failing to reveal something though. what is the point, what is the photographer trying to achieve. to be honest I would have liked to see more of what the relationship between the Israeli army and the Palestinian people is really like. I dont think MH is helping me to understand why there is such a degree of seperation, but actually in a way affirming that there is such a seperation.
what the intentions of the photog are i am not sure, and its really none of my business, other than the viewer, but it seems as though the view here is limited, the field of scope only covers MH and his army pals, standing around with guns and helmits, so what! with this kind of access there seems like a great opportunity to really show something valuable and constructive and ultimately informative, but i aint getting that.
best,
SIMON…
interesting question….personally, i just cannot appreciate pictures which supposedly “tell a story” , but just aren’t strong pictures in and of themselves…i think Joe would disagree with me on this as would many others…so there is no “right or wrong” to it i suppose…we will see soon i think Joe’s edit of the same set of pictures to perhaps be more storytelling..this will be interesting indeed…overall for this set, i think the access was most interesting to me…i just have not seen anyone shoot this before…so far, the consensus on this story is pretty much the same and i hope Michael jumps in to give his circumstances, reasons, etc…..
cheers, david
DAH “personally, i just cannot appreciate pictures which supposedly “tell a story” etc.” Yes, the goal is always to get a great photograph – at least for the photographer. I believe that Nat Geo call some photographs ‘point photos”: not great photographs in-themselves but valuable to the overall storytelling process?
In the days of film, nat Geo photogs used to ship all film back to base and the story editor would begin the edit. Was this so for you as a freelance? Do you find digital valuable in that you can edit in-the-field before sending to a publication or do you always send direct to Magnum?
Best wishes,
Mike.
DAVID,
I remember you wrote here some time ago about the arguments between you and (if I remember correctly) William Albert Allard about editing down his pictures, so I’m not surprised by your answer! I agree that pictures that can stand on their own are what you need to go for.
Do you think that the writing accompanying a set of photos is critical in ‘telling the story’, as in the written ‘statements’ that usually go with photo essays? Maybe the very best essays or individual pictures can communicate some universal human sentiment, without needing words? Or not?
Michael’s essay reminded me of Rachel Papo’s ‘Serial no. 3817131’ – http://www.serialno3817131.com/ – mainly because of the subject matter.
WOW michael…
unlike the flock here, i like this essay very much, my favorite so far along with previously published michael c. brown’s and cary conover’s. Strong vision, consistency and a beautiful b/w.
I hope some magazine will buy it soon!
cheers
those who criticize should at least look at the pictures carefully first…
someone wrote:
“to be honest I would have liked to see more of what the relationship between the Israeli army and the Palestinian people is really like”
#3,#6 and #24 will possibly give you a hint of what the everyday ordinary relationship between the israeli army and the palestinian people are (unless they have coffee together after lunch…).
i agree… i like the work as well. i do feel there is a relationship there. there are one or two images i would edit out (looking at the camera) – but overall i think it is a nice essay. good job.
Ladies and gentlemen,
First, many thanks for having taken the time to have a look and share your impressions on the work.
I would like to react on some of the points raised here:
As much as I would like my pictures to “say it all” (who wouldn’t), as in many other essays, some explanations seemed necessary. Do the essay has to directly show what is told in the text?
Frankly I don’t think so, and at least, that was not my intention while writing it.
Then about what were my intentions, and why it is not clear what my opinion on the duty is.
Well, some background:
I was born in Paris (France, not Texas) and emigrated to Israel at the age of 18.
until then, what I knew of the Israeli army was stupidely dichotomic.
For the Jewish community were I grew up, the last of the IDF soldier was a hero with supernatural abilities and with a moral code of the Mahatma Gandi.
For the French press, or at least most of it (I’m talking of the 80’s) the IDF is systematically described as martyrizing the Palestinians just for the fun of it.
I am barely exagerating.I am sure some will not agree with me on this, but let’s just say that it is my feeling up to this day.
Coming to Israel at the age of 18, I learnt pretty quickly that nothing of these stereotyps works.
The world is not flat, but the screen, the paper makes it flat.
And all of a sudden, you are not looking at the TV. You are what the TV is looking for.
Quite a trip.
I joined the army at the age of 25 after having finished my BSc for only a few months, served my first reserve period at 27.
At the beginning, it was unbearable. Nothing of the life of a Parisian could prepare me to this world, to his rules.
Now, the people I know there, and sometimes knowing that we are doing a necessary jobs (in our point of vue) makes it possible, and sometimes enjoyable.
So what did I want to say….
I wanted to tell the other story. The one untold by the medias.
I guess a Palestinian could have done exactly the same on his side, showing how most of his life is concentrated on his living and his interaction with the army is mostly reduced to trying to pass as quickly as possible the checkpoints to get to work, trying to avoid me when coming back from a week of illegal work in Israel.
Most of our lives is no drama.
Did I succeed to show what I wanted to?
I am not sure…
Do I have an opinion on the conflict?
of course!
A very bright and strong and fully argumented, convincing opinion which is totally irrelevant considering what I wanted to show.
I am part of the conflict. My opinion is biased, and I am not trying to sell anything to anyone.
(Or maybe that under our helmets, we don’t have horns :-)?)
I would like to ask for a favor from those who think I missed a point, whatever it was, to have a look at my site. Maybe the much broader selection of pictures there can enlighten the essay a bit?
About my situation right now: I am about to complete my PhD in Industrial Engeneering, and I just started a post-doc position in the US.
When I’ll be back to Israel, I will aparently be about 40, which is the age of release from the reserve. So I’m not sure I will be again “there”. If you guys think I need more material, I can go and volunteer, but I’m not sure my wife will love this :-).
Finally, Joe, thanks a lot for the editing suggestion. Please give me the time to seriously have a look at it and maybe discuss it with DAH.
Peace on you,
Michael
WOW!….
ok, 1st: Ben R/Sidney, U 2 win!…i broke my 72-hr thought for silence. But, i’ve got like 2 mintues of time to squeeze, that’s it. u guys win: 2 wager: can i make it until monday morning (no time tomorrow/saturday/sunday, so 2nd wager ;)) )…
Ok, 2nd:
WOW!
I AM ALSO REALLY REALLY SURPRISED! It’s a terrific, powerful and quite sophisticated essay. I watched it 3 times at school and 2 times now. There are some, visually, great photographs: lucid, intimate, metaphoric, distilled: 1, 2(an absolutely brilliant image and one that could be anthologized with regard to how both soldiers and reservists spend time), 3 (the tension between the intensity of the circumstances, with the palestian men being blindfolder and the absolutely pedestrian surroundings, the latrine, and the ‘casual’ unkempt soldier with the head band: it’s like out of Catch-22), 4, 5(!!), 7(!!), 8 (for the collision between the guy in the forgeound and the masked guy), 9 (brilliant!: the movement from the intensity of the soldier on the left to the middle one (phone) to the right one who looks bored, slouching, this images, against the stark background/landscape captures 3 very different experiences and truth about service in 1 photograph!), 11, 12(!), 13 (exceptional and beautiful photograph, recalls for me both koudelka gypsies and pjg), 14(!), 16!!, 17 (timeless!!), 18, 19, 20 (!!!!), 22 (like Mccullen), 23, 24, 25 (brilliant)….
Actually, I would casually ask viewers to re-watch the essay. It works in it’s entirety for me, visually, emotionally, narratively. I think Michael has captured for us quite intimately both the tedium (the ordinary boredom of service) and the tension. It has been written that as a soldier, 99% of the time you sit around and wait for the 1%: long stretches of waiting, watching, sleeping, remembering, playing, mind/body numbing waiting for that 1% that becomes stark and mad in it’s intensity: be it during war/combat or outside of the zone. Absolutely Michael illustrates this with really brilliant iconography and moments. But also, the essay is filled with lots of great intimacy and ‘odd’ moments that fill out the lives and time during the service of the reservist. This, finally, is punctuated by the intensity of the reality of what being in the military means: the palestinians blindfolded, the old men and women searched at the borders, the stark scarred landscape, the watching at movement from distance which might be an ‘enemy.’ There is incredible sadness and tension in this story too, as well as the comraderie between the soldiers.
I think the problem is our association with recent events in Gaze or maybe our hunger to have wanted more obvious military stuff (shots of war) or stuff of their civilian lives? I dont know. I didnt see this story at all about politics, (though one cannot look at a story about Israel or the military without that important perspective/context), but about the ambiguity and tension and confused circumstance of being a reservist and serving in the military. I am sure there are many who are reservists who struggle with the decisions that the IDF does or the Israeli leadership and there are some who do not. What I found powerful about the work was that it wasn’t disconnected from the horror that was reigned upon Gaza this year, or the difficulty of life under occupation, or the fear that both Palestians and Israelis live under, but that it took a specific story and forces us through the property of photogrpahy, through the story of these men to deal with the life that necessitates a reserve army to begin with. I wont (now) bring in a discussion of Israeli/Palestine conflict and politics, but the tension that underlies this story is very palpable. But it also speak of a more universal story with regard to service.
there IS DESCRIPTION and detail with regard to the everyday life of these men, both in service and out, but since the story is about their time in service, how does one flesh that out and detail that with images?….it’s there in the pictures….we see the entirety trajectory of their experience….
a new edit, from viewers…?….hmmm….well, ok…i guess that what we all do, only isn’t it odd not have already understood that each of us sees and experiences these pics and stories in our own way and that then a new edit becomes not the photogrpahers story,, but a viewers….but…i’ll wait for that too….but, oh, i dont know….i guess Burn is all things…..
Maybe on sunday, i will write more to flesh it out what I am striving to right…but i think the story is very powerful, contains great, lucid and strong work and that i am left, again, with a story not of war but of a group of men who find themselves in circumstances that are not clear, filled with all kinds of strange ambiguity and conflict…and, ultimately, feels bereft….
the soldier as Sisyphus……..and when will politicians understand this…
SIMON…
well, the text SHOULD always be as good as the photographs or vice versa…it rarely happens…few writers are photographers and few photographers are writers…i did not say none, i just said few…
if one wants the context of a set of photographs, obviously words tend to be the first choice, but i have also often viewed a piece where music set context quite well…i think it is possible to have totally stand alone images for which text elaborates the essay, but if you look at most great photography books there tends to be minimal text…the same photographs as per published in a magazine may have been subsidized by written “explanation”, but when the photographs are in FINAL form, i.e. book or in a museum show , text tends to be minimal or esoteric in nature…
i am a believer in photography all by itself as a language…a new language now barely spoken…while some think stills are “over”, i think it is only the beginning…historically photography went from novelty, to representation, to mass hobby, to art …and so technical as to confuse many as to its purpose…now that we are getting past all of the above, and as the mass media move to the net and video gives us our “news”, still photography will come of a new age..it only stands to reason….the written word was functional only long before it became poetry…and anyone can compose a grammatically “correct” sentence…few can juxtapose those words to go beyond “description”…so will go photography …with everyone able to make a technically “perfect picture”, the real authors will rise above the fray
cheers, david
mmm..
ma nishma Michael?
ata medaber ivrit?
I lived in the middle east for a number of years,
was there for the Gulf War, putting on a gas mask…
In these images
I felt a disconnect,
for that IS how it is;
from my experience…
I have friends in milium,
zay chim…
thats life..
no fun..
born into it…
really loved the frame of the soldier with a pony tail,
and religion walking beside…
did your family move to Israel,
or just you?
is this an ongoing project?
if you are in milium, then I am sure it is…
perhaps life long….
circles,
continuous,
circles…
shalom..
salam..
**
Since I seem to have done something that finally allows me to comment (but what? some kind of an engineer…) I will try to answer to more specific points:
Haik: this is NOT wartime. Most of the service is a long and boring anticlimax.
And although there is up to a certain point a good level of comradery, not everyone there is the friend of everyone. Some guys are great and friendly, other are jerks, just like in any other place.
Andrea: point well taken about the distance. This work was done on several years and I may have evoluted in that regard. About the light, maybe the more even light of winter is more pleasing to me, maybe the expressions of the guys when cold is interfering are better, I don’t know. there are other, much harsher lightings in other pictures of the essay.
Luzz, thanks for the kind words. The arrestations were actually done during the operation “firewall” and are quite not representative of the interaction between the army and the civilians on the dily basis. Things are complex. The really tough parts (crowded checkpoints) with the population are left to younger, more trained units. That means that most of the interaction I have seen is kind of low key. And yes, I do remember having had coffee with some palestinian workers on the building site of the great “china wall”…
I’m not saying that the IDF is kind and nice and that civilians just love them (us). Just that the situation is complex, and sometimes not as tense as it may seem. Too much anecdotes would be needed to describe it right.
Michael
I felt that the whole piece was great. I felt that it really captured the monotony of a reservist’s daily routine and that is why I think that it was so successful. Another commentator mentioned that they would have liked to have seen more action, well perhaps action isn’t part of the daily routine of these reservists.
I also loved the paradox of people going about their daily life juxtaposed with the soldiers standing nearby on duty.
The photograph with the three friends/reservists in embrace was very nostalgic and that photograph in particular made me envy not being a soldier in a way or having undergone military training.
Some of my friends from my city in the US told me about the close forming of friendships during military training. The photos in this series from the reservists private rooms really captured this and I felt envious in a way on having missed out on that. I was glad that I didn’t see any real violence with opposition forces as the power of this series lay in the everyday.
Cheers
…. crazy traffic in L.A…
Obama’s in town….
you cant move around Long Beach…
sorry book…
it took me a while to post your comment…
:)
Marcin,
thank u…
got your comment!!!!!!!
:)))))))
big hug
… great, great essay…
brought me back sooooooooooooooo many memories….
im not gonna say more… no need to….
ok y’all… going to bed ..
long road trip to north california tomorrow…
Big Sur…:)
Michael and I are having a great discussions on editing, but a couple of things have just come up, some admitting the obvious, but some concepts maybe not so obvious.
So the obvious first, i do always think that people that have not taken the pictures are always better editors than pure self-editing. This is not to be confused with self-designing the ‘end message/mood’ just not necessarily picking the images that best produce that end-message/mood. The only ‘somewhat’ remedy for this is to look at your images six months later when you’ve forgotten the emotion of being there.
also, as said, i’m certain a photographer should have a message/mood in mind when they go and collect images for a project, but i’m fairly convinced that you if you want to share your message with an audience you’re best to hand over your work to someone that wasn’t there to help you shape the message
Ok, more admitting the obvious, i just find it’s nearly impossible for us to divorce ourselves from our work or from actually being there, but more tragically your audience is never going to know what it was like to be there at that moment, so even if the reality of the image is part of the message, if the image doesn’t convey that reality then it’s a victim and gets cut.
Of course there’s the sinister side of that equation, what if an image telegraphs exactly the message you want to deliver, but you know the reality of the image was not at all what it conveys? but your audience tells you that’s the message they get? (Kevin Carter comes to mind) Do you keep it? I say yes, the message is always more important than the reality in the ‘Art World’ and it’s the benefit of the double-edge sword I described above where the reality is not coming through in the image.
so as far as editing, it’s not a carte blanche hand over to the editor, the message/mood is still owned by the author and that message/mood is the master of the editor’s decisions. This makes me wonder what kind of conversations take place when you are actually preparing images for writing pieces at Nat Geo?, I suspect you need to surrender even your message David? Is this why it’s all about strong images over cohesive ones? (I’m reaching for the salt in case i’ve just stuffed my shoe in my mouth again ;-)
But back to when the photographs come first, when it comes to the decisions by the editor, especially when the editor doesn’t select your personal favourites, but the audience gets exactly the message/mood the author desired, how willing is the author to surrender their favourites to the cutting floor? I think this is the dilemma of most editing exercises.
Then again this is my opinion, I say white, some say Black ;-)
DAVID,
Thank you for your inspiring response… I must go out and photograph right now!!!
Simon
JOE,
Your thoughts remind me of the essay ‘The Photographer as Auteur’ by Mike Johnston: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/auteur.shtml
The still picture, the moving image and the written word are not reality, but the author’s message and intention and an audience with an active, open mind can perhaps shine a light on what is real.
Simon
test :))
ANTON: :))
this seems to work…but i hate to be a special ;)))…hopefully, we’ll figure this out…maybe it is my name that is creating the havoc…’bob black’ is a ‘famous’ guy, an anarchist from Seattle…and not always a pleasant presence in the blog world…good god, i hope im not like that guy ;))))..anyway, i’ll use this for now until we figure something out :)))…
JOE :))
I look forward to seeing the edit/collaboration with Michael….i was really really surprised that this essay met with tepid response…really…and i wonder if it doesnt have to do with the surrounding context of Israel, Gaza and War: in many senses (particularly in light of it’s being shown now), it defies viewer expectations….it battles against the viewers conceptions of what this essay SHOULD have been…that’s very clear very clear in the comments…call me Ishmael, but u know me, i love work that goes against what viewers bring to the table: for me, that is still the power of photography and narrative (maybe that’s been my Burn mantra for 3 months now): for viewers to be Opened and contradicted to their thoughts/orientations/expectations…here Michael does it with straightforward, classic, well-honed photography, rather than visual madness or conceptual ideas, and it still accomplishes the same…..and i am NOT down on you editing the piece (im all for collaboration, and do it all the time with other artists) and see the beauty of Burn as a place of interactivity (hence my frustration with David McG’s presentation as a form), but I just get naturally concerned when people volunteer to re-do someone else’s work because they dont feel it….that to me, is the opposite of what SHOULD happen when and if people choose to engage with photography….imagine a reader saying: ‘let me re-edit ________’ (fill in the blank of any book)…being an editor is one thing, but reconstructing…another….I am very pleased that you and Michael have had a good dialogue and its been fruitful….that is what Burn is REALLY about:
conversation, ideas, learning…
ok, back to the nether world of the silent…
RUNNING
B
I mean, there is NOTHING wrong with reconstruction…i LOVE mash-ups (music) and artist that appropriate and re-do…love wide sargassa sea over Eyre, but, when viewers/readers begin to re-make another person’s work as an improved variation and still allow it to be called ‘the author’s work’ that’s a bit, ummmm…well….anyway, im sure the 2 of u will bring an interesting collaboration and i look forward to it…done, promise, b
Joe.
I nearly always like what you have to say but earlier you said
“So the obvious first, i do always think that people that have not taken the pictures are always better editors than pure self-editing. This is not to be confused with self-designing the ‘end message/mood’ just not necessarily picking the images that best produce that end-message/mood. The only ‘somewhat’ remedy for this is to look at your images six months later when you’ve forgotten the emotion of being there.
also, as said, i’m certain a photographer should have a message/mood in mind when they go and collect images for a project, but i’m fairly convinced that you if you want to share your message with an audience you’re best to hand over your work to someone that wasn’t there to help you shape the message”
And i have to be a bit vocal on this one and say i believe that to be completely wrong.
Collaberation sure; advice from someone who can see, of course; but hand it over? Fuck that.
I guess like all things really if you dont know exactly what you want to say you should say nothing.Not just get someone else to write the script for you.
Letting someone else dictate the rythmn, and therefore the ‘effect’ of your work? I think not.
John:
AMEN!!!!…that’s what i was trying to suggest, in a nice way! :)))
bob
John, if you only knew the irony of what you just wrote. e-mail to follow!
SIMON
Thanks for the link, i’ve not seen that before, it’s an interesting perspective. From that article i like this posit the best:
Trachtenberg’s approach gives hope to working photographers that there may at least possibly still be some purpose in trying to construct sets of photographs which will someday have some authenticity not only as a visual record but as social history and in terms of communicative intent, and that they might retain a coherent sense of authorship as time passes: not, of course, because they can show with absolute objectivity what was (few of us believe in that possibility any more), but that the point of view of the photographer and the interpretations of his subject he encourages among his audience will remain valuable to know about as well.
seems relevant to Michael’s essay, his attitude towards this social, political period of time may seem ‘somewhat’ obvious to us now, but ten years from now it will be anthropological evidence, and ironically not because of the pictures.
basically photographers are part of history not only because of what’s in their pictures, but because of the set of pictures they actually select to deliver as a message; that editing effort assigns importance (it’s their personal and point-in-time, social finger print) the photographer’s perspective becomes history just as much as the image information.
you could say the same things about all modes of art as barometers of the time. But, and i keep banging on about this, the set has to deliver a coherent message or it’s just a bunch of pictures diluting what could be a social commentary, and i stand by my opinion that editors help authors to arrive at the desired message, being a visual or text based message.
but joe:
yes, editors do help writers/photographers….BUT BUT BUT…
“that editors help authors to arrive at the desired message, being a visual or text based message.”
yes, BUT they help arrive at THE MESSAGE THEY want to impart…sometimes this is the SAME as the author, sometimes it is different…im holding my tongue until i see YOUR MESSAGE (your edit of Michael’s work)…but sometimes EDITORS, just as historians and politicians, promulgated the WRONG message…
sorry joe, but that’s some slippery slope u r working and remarkably, umm, arrogant assumption to make that your edit (“i wish i had been there to reconfigure the work michael’s work, is how i read you 1st post) is the best/correct/historical/anthropological….you’ve made the misstep by assuming that because the final appearance of a work is the one that matters (again, not always true joe, as we adapt, discover, annotate work all the time long after the author has departed) for history or reading….
I think if an editor (in this case you’ve become that) or collaborator works with a person to produce a body of work, great. Editors weild magical wands…and often have been ‘eyes’ than photographers, just as many editors have better sense for narrative/sentence structure than writers, and I’ve worked with both (photo editors and writing editors, and have done stints as both too), but i think you MUST be very very careful to assume that because YOU didnt feel this story, that you re-working of it will highlight or properly contextualize or make the story sing…Michael’s story works for me…would i shoot it differently, arrange pics differently, add/cut others, of course, he and i are different…but, i think, some of what you have written is very frightening, frankly….
a barometer, indeed
though I found you ‘volunteering’ to edit the work very odd (unsolicited), i do look forward to seeing your collaboration…
all the best
bob
sorry, have to use an alias, to get around the spam filter now, but it’s me: bob…
Oi Joe!!1….
yes, editors do help writers/photographers….BUT BUT BUT…
“that editors help authors to arrive at the desired message, being a visual or text based message.”
yes, BUT they help arrive at THE MESSAGE THEY want to impart…sometimes this is the SAME as the author, sometimes it is different…im holding my tongue until i see YOUR MESSAGE (your edit of Michael’s work)…but sometimes EDITORS, just as historians and politicians, promulgated the WRONG message…
sorry joe, but that’s some slippery slope u r working and remarkably, umm, arrogant assumption to make that your edit (“i wish i had been there to reconfigure the work michael’s work, is how i read you 1st post) is the best/correct/historical/anthropological….you’ve made the misstep by assuming that because the final appearance of a work is the one that matters (again, not always true joe, as we adapt, discover, annotate work all the time long after the author has departed) for history or reading….
I think if an editor (in this case you’ve become that) or collaborator works with a person to produce a body of work, great. Editors weild magical wands…and often have been ‘eyes’ than photographers, just as many editors have better sense for narrative/sentence structure than writers, and I’ve worked with both (photo editors and writing editors, and have done stints as both too), but i think you MUST be very very careful to assume that because YOU didnt feel this story, that you re-working of it will highlight or properly contextualize or make the story sing…Michael’s story works for me…would i shoot it differently, arrange pics differently, add/cut others, of course, he and i are different…but, i think, some of what you have written is very frightening, frankly….
a barometer, indeed
though I found you ‘volunteering’ to edit the work very odd (unsolicited), i do look forward to seeing your collaboration…
all the best
bob
collaboration
can be
very powerful..
**
to restate what i said:
“so as far as editing, it’s not a carte blanche hand over to the editor, the message/mood is still owned by the author and that message/mood is the master of the editor’s decisions.”
is this clear to only me? The editor supplies a service not artistic licence.
Bob sometimes you make me feel very uncomfortable participating on Burn and you are a key reason why i participate on Burn as little as i do now.
i’ve lost any appetite for taking David’s suggestion any further. Bob you’ve made clear your opinion that not only is the effort dubious, but the actually offer to do so audacious. Please save the ‘I never said’ reply; you’re opinion is clear, albiet with half-cooked information.
Although my exchange with Michael revealed a direct disagreement on only a single image, let’s just move on and forget this idea ever was expressed.
but I wanna see it Joe..
I’m interested,
think it would be a great exercise
to study here on BuRN…
reconsider…
**
Joe, we only know you here as “Joe” but David obviously knows you and thinks your edit would be a good idea.
Everybody: before we decide that only the author is capable of giving his / her work the correct interpretation, why don’t we let Joe do the edit and SEE what he comes up with?
I hope that we are all here to learn and I, for one, would love to see the edit from Joe along with his thought process.
Go take a look in your bookshelves everyone and look at the credits; you will usually find “Thanks to x, Picture Editor”. Magnum has long-used the skills of Jimmy Fox, picture editor.
Sebastiao Salgado’s wife, Lelia, in the acknowledgments section of Sebastiao’s masterpiece, Workers writes “After each shoot, Sebastiao developed the contact sheets and then went on to make work prints. We would make a rough selection, and the final press prints were chosen with the help of Jimmy Fox, who gave himself fully to the project ….”. The whole acknowledgement page is one (large) page.
I was fortunate enough to see a BBC television programme about the making of Workers and it was fascinating; non-more-so than the deliberation about which photograph (a choice of two) to include of a little boy running beside his family after a day’s toil at an Indian coal face. In one photograph the boy partially turns towards the camera, smiling; but the smile is caught as a devilish grin: quite unnerving. The next frame shows him running up the hill. Which photo to choose? In a meeting of minds (including the mind of Jimmy Fox) it was decided that the latter was more appropriate (P280-281 of Workers).
This is the kind of thought process that I want to see here at Burn. I want to see the giants of the photographic industry at work and find out what they do and why in a given situation. We have great resource here so let’s not waste it. Any young photographer can learn here in months what it would take years to grasp in isolation.
We all know that one of the best ways to show our work is in book form. Picture editing is an art in itself so let’s not close our eyes to the process. No boxes here, no boundaries.
I can understand Bob’s (and others) initial reaction to a request by Joe to edit someone else’s work but it was just a knee-jerk reaction. I suspect that Joe is no ordinary Joe when it comes to picture editing.
Joe, I value your comments here so please, don’t go away.
Best wishes to all,
Mike.
JOE–
please don’t let bob prevent you from participating here.
i very much look forward to and value your comments.
i actually think bob is a bit jealous of your perspicacious contributions here (alpha/ego-thing),
hence, his passive-aggressive (sometimes outright aggressive) propensities toward you
which have been really obvious to me for a while now.
(remember your first round with him and how he later blamed it on the flu?
note to bob – please read SHANTIDEVA).
whatever it is, it’s his problem, not yours. unless you make it so.
i would welcome seeing your edit of this work.
after all, i’m here to Learn.
ok, i’m sure i’ll get slammed for speaking my mind but fuck it.
sometimes you just gotta call it like you see it (AMIRITE PANOS??!).
i could be wrong but my gut says i’m not.
i’m off to my last day of winter quarter classes – woopwoop! then ten days of blissful freedom.
happy spring ya’ll! :)
k.
joe:
i have said from my 1st comment that i welcome your edit and the collaboration…i am only questioning what you’ve written, just as you and other question what others right…this is discussion…my comment was simple:
i found it odd to offer to edit someone’s work unsolicited…but i also wrote that all that matters is the relationship you and michael have established…something that David endorsed…and then i found this comment that an edit makes or breaks the worth of work, this coming your position as having to choose to edit the work…it’s a bit like strange…and since you are a thinker, i am only engaged in questioning your words, just as you have done from day 1, just as all thinkers too…
ok, i make u feel uncomfortable joe, that I wont comment…
forget i wrote anything
AND I AM SORRY YOU FEEL THIS WAY…its about argument of ideas, i dont think someone who disagrees with me is a bully or wrong, but ok….
i wont comment anymore….
best of luck
bob
don’t be silly Bob, comments are more important to you than air is to mammals. you should continue to comment, what you say is typically verbose and mostly self-describing, but typically harmless and mostly healthy, except for this time.
this was a vulnerable situation both for Michael and for me, for different reasons, but of the same magnitude. i’m also certain most members of Burn could have collected benefits from this exercise, participants and spectators alike, but the only way we could have gone forward with this effort was softly-softly with grace and compassion by all involved.
Michael agreed to this effort and i attempted to let members know what was going on with the effort while underway, sort of like we were all in this together.
but from the very beginning Bob you’ve infected the idea with only negativity, even your endorsement of the idea was delivered in such a back-handed way that it became negative.
like i said, let’s just move on, but when an opportunity like this occurs again between two members of Burn that requires social skills rather than discounting skills, i hope you choose social skills Bob.
Michael has all my feedback on each image in the original edit as well as the images that were not included in the edit that i felt should be and why. It’s entirely up to him to decide if he wishes to share this.
Chow.
Hi all
I certainly don’t understand enough about how “things” are working to have a general answer about the editing issue, but this is my take about my pictures:
Editing is difficult for me, so I very often ask others, from various backgrounds to have their opinions.
Being connected personally, knowing the situation is a burden, a nuisance when editing.
That doesn’t say that I would give full freedom to anyone to edit my pictures.
And the final decision is mine, but from my experience, the editing of others helps me.
When I agree with the “other”, I feel more secure about my choice.
When I disagree, I have to ask myself why, to reconsider, and to adopt a new opinion, or stick with my former take. In either case, I also feel more secure about my choice.
I don’t know any of you personally, but I felt honored that Joe took the time to reedit my work.
Would have he done it if he was indifferent to the pictures?
BTW, I’m perfectly fine with sharing your editing.
How can we do it?
people remix music all the time.. with consent and without consent.. and sometimes produce results which strike more of a chord than the original
DAH remixes work, as he did on road trips.. ‘the DAH edit’ and all that.
i’ll be proud to get a bob black remix of my junk one day.
who knows? not me…
:o)
peace all round.. god i’d love to get you bob and you joe around a table.. i know joe from meeting in person and bob i’m hoping to meet on some tributary..
down with the interweb.. discussions loose so much.
d
David B, yes, DAH is always offering to help people with their edit. He obviously feels (knows) that people struggle in this area. Is the photographer the best person to edit his / her work? We all like to feel that, yes, we are and given time this may well be true for many. Perhaps editing is like life: you get to the end and say “o.k. – I get it now – can I try again?
Best,
Mike.
Hi all,
A question in general: Is there a difference between a serie/ documentary and an essay? Just curious
Bye, David
David Rozing, “Is there a difference between a serie/ documentary and an essay? ” good question.
Not for me; I’d say they were all a series of photographs that either told a story or had a link to each other by way of mood or some kind of link.
Best wishes,
Mike.
mike – quick edits, over a day, from 300 down to 30 photos has always been simple enough for me.. i edit a mixture of what the client wants and chuck in my own taste after… the difference i find with editing to my own wishes purely is that i instinctively now try to edit in part for others taste.. part of serving magazines maybe.. with davids help (i will write about the most recent edit when i have more time), i’m getting over that hangover from heavy magazine work.. i’m finding new feet and really enjoying it as of the past month or so.
in general i think photographers are the best to edit their work alone only when it is for someone else – a client.. magazine.. newspaper..
when it is for ourselves i think the more help, the more educated the edit..
respected opinions have the power to alter perception – it is still my choice of photos therefore.. it’s just better educated.
in fact the most benefit from the edit with david recently was probably the sideline conversation.. the dropped phrases and honest exchanges.
davids choice of photographs went a long way to re-enforcing my perception of the work.. the conversation went a long way to support that what i need to show is my choice.. and not to please or appease others, which i have done for many years in the publishing world..
it is an interesting point and i think that the photographers who really care must ask for opinion.. in the same way as with any discussion.. about politics.. religion.. (oh god).. otherwise balance can be lost..
you know..
we all need a mirror to shave in, and i would hate to miss an area for want of one :o)
d
Thanks David B.
I’d still like to read a transcript from an edit for a book. Not so much which photographs to pick but more the layout: how to keep the message flowing, the juxtaposition of photographs, the size of photographs, the arguments, the blood!
Best,
Mike.
mike – i’ll do my best to put out on here what is going on behind the scenes with david’s mentoring..
:o)
“comments are more important to you than air is to mammals.”
Joe: that’s insulting and I’ve never snarked you off or insulted you personally. I HAVE challenged your ideas. You now are insulting.
Joe: You have, again, misunderstood me. ironically, when i confront something you write, it’s “i dont feel comfortable” and than i’m the bad guy. that is pathetic, ….
so, goodbye. good bye burn (sorry david). I will write the text as promised for Marina because she means more to me than anything else.
I DO NOT need this bullshit. Ironically, Joe, who has always considered himself a thinker now insults when i question what he’s written.
I respect MIchael’s decision to go with an edit with JOe. I’ve said this how many times now? I edit my work AND I ASK FOR HELP (from marina, from friends, etc). I also help others edit. I respect editors, period, full stop. We all need them (be it writing or pics), but this is entirely different than the fodder JOe you wrote under your fist post here (basically, in a nice way, snarky off the essay) and what you wrote this morning. That i’ve challenged your ideas and your comments (which is different from insulting you as a person, which you HAVE DONE TO ME NOW 3 TIMES) is seriously childish.
more important than air?…well, i guess i am asphyxiating myself then, cause, really, this is it…
sorry david.
ciao, indeed, joe…
good luck
b
Bob,
I’m “new in town” here, and I am far from understanding at what point of your (apparently animated) debates/discussions I find you. One thing is sure: I would feel very sorry to see you leaving over a disagreement generated around my pictures.
Specially after what you said about them :-)
Specially after what I saw of your work…
Gee…the web is wonderful but can be such a lousy communication medium between people…
Take care, all
Michael
photography
and
passion
and
words..
misinterpreted
misunderstood…
we are all here for the same reason…
a thirst..
a hunger..
for imagery
for dialogue
for thought..
for intellect
discussion
photos
art
selves..
deep breaths..
the fire
is
oh so
hot….
but
come
and
stay warm..
**
okay – a whole fat slice of whatthefuck seems to have happened.. in the Israel soldiers thread.
hmm.
i confess to only having just read all the posts herein….
joe – i read you as being hurtful and in such a clinical way.. seems low, bro.
a personal attack?
bob ventured a point of view, as i read it.. no biggie.
you had a bad day or what?
I think it is possible to think too much. Don’t you think.
trying not to think about it.
:o/
Joe, Bob. Mythos. Taverna. Greek beach. Big argument. Bigger hand gestures. Sputtered beer. Insults. And then … lots of laughs, best of friends. But only if you stay at the table.
David B, exactly!
zzzzzz
another day at BURN…
must i have to say i love you ALL (ahemmmm, sorry me loving space cowboy and dumping civilian)
to get you to say one thing: LOVE PEACE PHOTOGRAPHY.
BOB….JOE
now gentlemen…please….both of you make such a strong contribution here, that i would be chagrined if either of you left…or if either of you let up one single bit on whatever rhetoric you felt necessary to make your respective points…both of you are thinkers and both of you take well to the page….so, as the sometime moderator of discussion here, i suggest a moment of calm and reflection….
EDITING….hmmmmm, a never ending discussion where there can never be the RIGHT ANSWER..
editing is just as subjective as choosing to squeeze the shutter button at a particular time in the first place…photographers edit first just by their choice of subject and the juxtapositions of elements in the viewfinder…pretty basic…
professional magazine editors are editing a photographer’s work for the sole purpose of matching their readers perceived wants with the pictures laying before them from a photographer they have CHOSEN in the first place….they are not GODS, they do not want to be GODS, most are just trying simply to do their job…many (most, probably all) picture editors at magazines and newspapers started out as photographers..often their original dream was to be the next “great photographer”….perhaps at some point they realized they could do more to tell a story to their readers by being “inside” the system than “out”….
in my experience, at looking over the shoulders of many an iconic photographer and student alike, is that some photographers are the very best editors of their own work and some are not…some photographers need and want a good editor , some do not…
this is not rocket science…this is just a simple equation of realities of the ability of some photographers who have a very strong sense of self and who are yet able to “separate” from the visceral moment of taking the picture and the more intellectual “step back” time of choosing the picture….two entirely different experiences…
i met Michael several years ago….we do not know each other well at all, it was just a one time meeting at a workshop or seminar i believe, and i do not even remember exactly where that was, but i am sure he will remind me…..but, i do remember him telling about his time as an Israeli reservist and how he had worked his way in to being able to shoot while on duty….when he submitted his work here to BURN i only thought “oh yes, i remember this project”..but, i had not been in touch with him from that first meeting and the viewing of his work here…
Michael submitted about 70 pictures for this essay….he asked me to help him edit….IF he had said “take it as is or leave it”, i would have done exactly that and respected him for saying so…i respect very much any photographer’s viewpoint, and in an editors role, will lean towards the photographer every time…i only make suggestions, try to make a sensible sequence, and use only gentle persuasion to think about the choice of one picture or another…i might say something like ” i really really think THIS picture serves you better Michael”…or ask “what exactly are you trying to tell me?”…or , yes, “Michael, please lets not publish this picture..it just does not work because look here is the same situation in another picture which is just much stronger for you”…ask anyone who has worked with me, and i think they will tell you this is pretty much the conversation…
Joe, when you suggested (or perhaps seemed to assume) there just must have been a “better” way to edit this story, i welcomed the idea for you to take a look…i was, and am, seriously interested to see how you would see it…i have no empirical knowledge or power as an editor…editing BURN is not what i DO, it is just a small part of my sense of payback/payforward for young photographers, and will not be a “hobby” forever…my work is what i DO…and just as i am instinctive by nature as a person, photographer, and editor, i was/am quite curious to see how you would see the reservist essay….were we in the same room at the same time with Michael’s work spread out on a table , it would only be pure fun to see how we might structure these pictures…would we disagree?? maybe, maybe not..but so what?? isn’t that the joy of playing with pictures??? isn’t this what it is all about?? to create a WHOLE out of so many parts???
on my loft wall in New York i have a few framed signed icons, a Korda, a Davidson, a Nachtwey , a Steichen etc etc…but, on another wall is always a “work in progress”..small prints tacked up like snapshots to be moved around, thought about, put up, taken down, moved in, moved out,over coffee, over beer, music playing, music off, early morning, late at night…well, this is how a book is born for me…
we cannot quite do this on line, but the technology now is making it easier and easier…Michael and i, at his request, played a bit of on line editing ping pong as i try to do with everyone…let’s keep this, let’s take this out…ok, yes yes..this one is it!! with Skype i am having the very best time now with David Bowen to help him edit for a book and possible essay for BURN….again, i am only trying to serve David B as per his request…and i tried to do the same for Michael…in Michael’s case, i made a pretty tight edit, worked with the sequencing and sent him a screen shot of the edit…he insisted on a couple of changes in sequence and i went with it of course…in the final flow, i wanted Michael to be able to have up on BURN exactly what he wanted to show..after all, i know nothing of Israeli reservist life and just listened carefully to his story, his intent, and tried as best i could to choose the strongest pictures which had already been deemed by him to be “the story”….since i figured from the get go that this story could be controversial, i wanted the story to be all Michael….his experience, his story, NOT my preconceived notions…
Joe, i think when you look at the work of Michael in its 70 picture totality you will see mostly “doubles” of situations presented on BURN…if you find another really important picture or two that somehow “says it better”, then i will be most pleased…maybe i missed something…it would not be the first time….and maybe we could have told this whole story with just 10 pictures….that would have been another way to go for sure….
in any case Joe, i made a sincere offer to you, albeit unusual, to do a second edit…when i read your very first comment on BURN about Patricia’s work, i knew you looked at work very very carefully…you do look at pictures in general in a very different way than do i, but again, so what?? this is a good thing…this is one of the reasons we have open comments, open dialogue, open open open…
keep those damned windows opened!!!! the minute the room gets stifling, i am outta here…
we all just have to remember it works both ways…and i think that is all that Bob was doing…giving his opinion just as you gave yours…fair enough?? and if Bob NEEDS to write, Bob NEEDS to write…his collected comments over the last three years do indeed make a book….and if we do a book of the diary of BURN, both of you will have hallowed space….
my oh my, i am always always looking for artists who NEED to do something…WANTING just ain’t enough…NEEDING is the ONLY way any kind of serious art is produced….
i have never NEVER never known ever EVER ever a truly great photographer or writer who did not have more than a healthy ego…but, let’s all try to keep it just that…healthy…..yup, i will try too!!!
so , right on!! and write on!!!
many many thanks to both of you always….
cheers, david
I like the fish.
MIKE R..
laughing…me too!!
i’m away from the keyboard today, but i’d rather not let this piece of anxiety linger in the air.
Bob i’m sorry i was so harsh with you. this edit exercise was very important to me and i’ll admit it brought out my worst demons watching it go anyway other than the way i wished. you felt the brunt of those demons. this is not an excuse, this is just an explanation.
so i hope you remove your vow of silence Bob. i really mean that, what fun would it be to be a bad guy with out a good guy to keep me honest? you’re always going to play good the good guy.
of course i have loads of thoughts swimming in my head about what David just said, maybe others have heard this from David before about editing, but i’ve not. And although at one time there were thoughts of an open air work-in-process area, i still think that’s not gelled. so this for me marks a milestone in Burn with regards to the exploration of the darkest (p)art of the photography business and I admit the turn i’ve been eagerly awaiting.
i’m still very excited that we have a candidate (Michael) and loads of interns and a resident to explore this with. I wish I could explore all of this now, but it’s Mother’s Day tomorrow in the UK and my eighteen month old son Dominic still struggles with what to get so I’m out the door with him in a few minutes to help him out.
Talk again later today,
Joe
6 & 7 JOE
he is the spitting image of you !!
happy shopping..
d n b n t
JOE…ALL
yes, at one point we were going to have an “open air” work in progress section here, but it was just going to get complicated and take weeks or months to get a story edited and with more frustration on everyone’s part than is i think needed…
i think you know however, that i do mentor small groups of photographers on their essays…photographers i did not know anywhere but on line…Rafal, Panos, Patricia, Audrey come to mind from the first go around…from my new online group, i am working with Lassal, David Bowen, Jonathan Hanson, and Subrahjit…Skype makes this relatively easy and the conversation flows when we are viewing the same pictures at the same time..quite a lot of fun really…i would love to meet you on Skype if you so wish…please let me know…
honestly, i do not see editing as the “darkest part of the photography business”…my experiences from a career of working with editors has been almost all very positive…none have tried to co-opt me…all have respected my work…i have also tried to make their life easier…they really do have a hard job and rarely receive any credit for all the work they do…after all, it is the photographer who is credited in the magazine piece or on the cover of a book…not the editor….if a photographer has truly interesting photographs and understands (the the case of a magazine) what the magazine can indeed do , then i think you can find ways to collaborate with an editor and as a team push the limits or stretch the limits of publication…ironically perhaps, the top editors want this to happen..they have a whole lot more respect for the photographers who push than the ones who do not…
i think i have said this many times in the past couple of years, but it never hurts to say it again:
for a photographer to really have an affect on published content, the photographer must must must be the most educated person in the editorial room on any given subject..too many photographers just “hug their pictures” and have no concept of the big picture…in other words, know the material at hand backwards, forwards, upside down, and right side up…and be able to speak intelligently on design, typography, word count etc…and simply know in advance that if there is space for a 20 page story on the circus that if you lay it out in your head for 35 pages, something just will not work… just make sure your very best get in….you do that by: (a) having the great pictures in the first place (a tiny detail many photogs forget)…. (b) making sure the editor realizes their true value by explaining in the context of the whole..
understanding the point of view of others will allow for your own point of view to come to the front..
please above all appreciate little Dominic….i am sure you do….
cheers, david
p.s.
i did not realize that David Bowen was simultaneously publishing a long comment on our editing process under Times and Timing..you may want to check it out…
ha – funny..
just posted about our editing in times n timing david.
thanks again and look forward to hopefully catching you on skype this weekend.. every day something new to say :o)
d
DAH “be able to speak intelligently on design, typography, word count etc” – yes, this is the business-end that I would like to see getting more coverage here at Burn.
In a previous post about editing I used, as an example, the fact that Sebastiao Salgado had the help of Magnum editor-in-chief Jimmy Fox for his initial edit of his book Workers. Later he had others to help with the layout. I believe that the editing process took two years! That’s along time, folks; there must be more to it than we think.
I would love to see a post here of a photographer and editor talking about their collaboration on a book. Some sort of interview. How they chose the design, typeface, layout, picture size etc. This is an area that many readers have no idea about (me included) but is crucial if they are going to be equal partners in future book publishing.
Further, such knowledge would be invaluable to photogs producing their own dummy book to show to publishers or at book fairs.
I know that I keep banging on about websites such as Noor and V11 showing tearsheets of their work from magazines worldwide but, for any beginning photographer out there, it’s a great resource: you get to see cutting-edge photography, which magazines publish such work and the layout on the page. Sometimes the work is published in more-than-one magazine, so you can compare layouts – for free! It’s like a classroom! I can also recommend the book “Things as They Are” which shows photojournalism from 1955 to the present day: 120 photo essays as they were first seen in newspapers and magazines. Look and learn.
Best wishes,
Mike.
Hi All
David and I met in Perpignan in 2005 for just about fifteen minutes. This same essay on the reservists was projected during one of the evenings of the “Visa pour l’image”. The day after, I was at the stand of Magnum, showing my work to him.
I have had very little experience with pro photography, magazines and agencies but I wanted to sell my story, or myself to an agency. I hoped that the fact that I have been selected to be presented in the festival would open some doors. It didn’t.
What I earned at Perpignan this year was a few elusive things, most of them I owe to David.
I owe to him a good part of the very small self-confidence I have about my pictures.
He really was interested by my work, encouraged me to go on on this subject and on others.
He even called Reza to show him the work. Quite an ego-trip for a complete outsider…
I also owe him one advice about my way of shooting. Such things are so scarce and valuable when you are not “in the loop”….
David, as much as I am happy and proud to have been picked out for publication here, I would like so much for this to be a start more than an achievement. I would like to participate, to show my work, to discuss it and improve it.
I am in the US (Michigan) for the next couple of years, with no project, no idea, my cameras and piles of film. I am really thirsty to something, anything that can help me progressing in some direction,…any direction…
Joe:
I accept your explanation, though i will be taking a leave of absence for a bit. i rarely get angry (though yesterday i was) and i never STAY angry, ever or with anyone. Meditation (i actually sent u metta this morning while meditating with my wife) eases that greatly. Let me just repeat so, in a moment of lucidity and calm, it is clear:
1) I love editors & the editing process
2) I actually, as a photographer and a writer, think about, obsess over, the editing process. As i’ve written many times here and at Road Trips, and in artist statement for my exhibitions, i think in terms of narrative, always, rather than individual photographs. I photograph the way i write: trying to capture both peculiarity of 1 thing (language or photo) and two tell a story, collected. I spent, for example, 3 months, playing with bones, from more than 500 frames, to get it to 65 and a number of different sequences. I also have a 10 pic edit too ;) I respect collaboration. In fact, i’ve helped lots of photogrpahers, and in fact, I helped a photogrpaher here who has had a picture published. He was a photographer whose work i didnt know and he wrote me after his work was published. I looked at a new series, we talked, i gave imput and an edit, and he ran with it. he didnt use the bob black edit, bur incorporated some of the ideas, ultimately, what is great about his work on boxing (his new project) is that it is HIS work, his ideas, etc.
3) editors do not get enough credit
4) I welcome your collaboration with Michael
5) I never never meant to suggest your enthusiasm was bad or wrong. I just didnt agree with some of what you wrote and the initial comment.
6) i like you. i think you are a very smart guy and i love that you spend a lot of time looking at, thinking about, digesting photographs and offering yur thoughts. not enough photographers do this. i respect this about you a great deal.
7) I must write, i am a writer. i must photograph, i am a photographer. i am obsessive about both and do both ferociously. it’s the one think many people who know me only through Burn/Roadtrips/Lightstalkers/Magnumblog/photosight.ru etc dont get about me cause they dont know me in real life. I am a good guy. i am not arrogant but i love photography, i love to write, i need to do this. but it aint about trying to get attention or outdo people. Being a writer and being a photogrpaher, as u know, means, unfortunately, everything tumbles in comparison. writing is like oxygen for me, but that IS NOT about commenting.
8) your son is beautiful and he and the pictures melted me and i thank u for sharings those
9) i look forward to your collaboration
10) I must take a break from burn for a bit.
Michael :))…i love the essay. I was surprised that it was mor well received. I think this is for many reasons, not the least of which is that the pictures and the narrative/story are quite subtle and i dont know, maybe many have lost, in the miasma of so much photography/style, that photography still surprises, and simplicity often contains the greatest complextiy. i’ve loved the work and hope, with time, others will feel similarily.
David b: thanks mate…
Plato (dah): no worries…i just need a break…will get u the stuff for m’s picture and the voice early in the week, i’ve also got a new and exciting project….anyway…nothing to add, i would never leave Burn, because: 1) i love burn and the photographers/people here, 2) i love u and what you have done with this magazine, 3) we’re friends and that means more to me than commenting ;)))) 4) i love/believe in photography and community and 5) i’m fucked, im already addicted ;)))…
gotta split
hugs y’all
b
Joe:
i forgot (as in Spinal Tab):
11. I AM SORRY if i was impatient or overly angry. No one needs brutish, argumentative pricks. And I apologize for any hostility or prick behavior that came through
cheers
bob
BOB
i actually sent u metta this morning while meditating
—————————–
Now I understand!
I was wondering what this was doing in my (inner) mail. Bob, it seems there was mix up in metta delivery. but I quickly resent to Joe’s address, and UMS (united metta services) promised he would have it by mid-morning….
btw, do yoo know how metta sent thru a kiss is called? Yep, metallic….
;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_WEvqxxQiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_WEvqxxQiU
BOB…
i could never fault you for wanting to take a break if that is what you want to do…i know you would say the same to me were i to wish the same…i think it is safe to say that you are the only person here on Burn who comments on absolutely every single entry without fail…so, would i miss your comments?? absolutely….would i twist your arm at some point to return?? absolutely…
you and i have one very important thing in common…we have mucho paciencia and our only real pet peeve is if we are somehow misquoted misunderstood misinterpreted…then and only then does a bit of anger arise..i have never read you so flat out pissed off.. however, neither of us stays angry for long…fast in, fast out….nor are grudges held…sometimes i wish i could hold a grudge, but it just doesn’t work…same for you as per stated…
no rush on the video/voice track…as a matter of fact, i may just go with the voice track…in any case, i cannot even start on that until mid April, so relax….i will call you when i get back to New York on the first….
peace, david
MICHAEL…
ah yes, it was Perpignan….thanks for the reminder….please send me an e-mail in a couple of weeks and i will find the time to call you and we can start thinking about a new project…your attitude and explanations here have been terrific…it has been a pleasure to work with you…hopefully, we can do so again….
cheers, david
Back to your essay, Michael.
Everyone made good points on the potential and limits of the essay. I must say I am most impressed by the pictures shot in the context of the land, or maybe rather, the terrain, often rough, gravelous and empty,ie. unforgiving. 5, 9, 13, 16, 25, really nice, strong “landscape” photography, trumped by the presence of man it its midst. I certainly thought of Koudelka here.
Bob Black,
On another thread you expressed an interest in seeing the “100 Years of Korea Through Foreign Eyes” slideshow that I put together for the students here… If you mean it, please email me a mailing (snail) address for you and I will be more than happy to send you a disk with the slideshows and music in Quicktime format which you can view on a computer. My email: satkins@telcomplus.net Would love for you to see it.
You don’t need me to tell you that next to DAH himself you are the most indispensable contributor to Burn. So many things in life are less a question of yes or no, and more a question of how much and when. I know you have had occasional problems balancing the time and energy, not to mention passion, you lavish so generously on Burn, to all of our benefit, with other demands, responsibilties, and interests in your life… I only hope you can quickly achieve a balance that feels right to you and allows you to go forward without feeling put upon or stressed in any way. You are not the only person among us ‘regulars’ (including me) who have had this problem. By all means, step back, experiment, juggle, breathe deeply, relax, and find a balance that feels right. Bon chance, mon ami…
David, Thanks! where can I find your email?
Bob, thanks a lot, it means a great deal to me. Again, I was also very surprised by “Bones” and liked very much .Pure creativity with nothing based on access. And It did “talk” to me. Kudos!
Between you and me (nobody’s listening, right? :-)) I think your analysis about the reaction to the essay is partly true. It’s hard to like a subject that you learn for a long time to dislike, that you associate with evil things. I don’t need lots of imagination to find myself unable to appreciate a work because it forces me to reconsider my ideas. That being said it’s way too easy for me to disregard opinion of others for this reason. I’m sure this essay can be easily criticized and is not exempt of flaws.
Herve, mentioning Koudelka…you made me blush :-)
Your picked pictures from the same area and period of time (winter, near Nablus) except 25 which was shot a few years later under a very hot weather. I also like the atmosphere of these pictures.
As David mentioned it, I had too many pictures, and no idea what kind of sensibility/ people i was going to meet here. I asked for direction and help in editing and beside one or two things that disturbed me (and were changed) I think it works. This essay has been changed so many times… new pictures added, new edit due to new format (site/ different exhibitions or publication allowing a different volume of images etc…). I start to feel it’s a good old piece of gum I keep chewing again and again, changing shape and taste. Yes, I feel It’s time to spit it and move on.
Meanwhile…BURN!…Bubble time :-)
Take care all.
The last shot in the essay, where the soldier is walking up the hill towards a cross. There seems to be a strong symbolic component in that shot, which is emphasized by it being the last picture in the sequence. It would be interesting to hear from Michael (and, perhaps, DAH, since he helped with the edit), why you decided to close the sequence with that shot.
I only read _some_ of the comments, and agree with those saying that the essay has very nice images, but does not feel complete. I’d love to see an alternative edit.
Arkady,
In my eyes, a last picture, or the few last pictures have to be good, to resume the atmosphere of the whole not to be informative but to be open, to address the feeling and not the mind.
A few such pictures could be possible here. 19 and 20 were my other possible choices.
Cheers
Michael
ARCADY..
the soldier walking up the hill with the cross was not my choice as the closing shot, although i did have it near the end…Michael wanted it specifically, so i went with his choice…i assume he will explain…it is very interesting to me that of all the stories here on Burn , this particular story has had several readers wanting to see an alternate edit…i really wonder what you and the others must think Michael and i left out…anyway, Michael is working with Joe on just such an alternate…i am just as curious as are you to see what they change…i think i mentioned earlier that at least for me all of the other pictures that i had to choose from were clear doubles or triples of what is here…i recall no other subject matter, just different versions of what we published..anyway, you be the judge…
cheers, david
David, Arkady,
IMHO, this specific image does the job in closing the story, based upon what I think should be an ending image.
Now about why this one over the two others, I’m not sure…
I could tell you what I feel that it expresses, but would it be relevant?
Everyone can take what she or he wants from it…
I have discussed with Joe on his editing. His choices are clear and more important for me, fully argumented. I have asked him to publish it and I hope to see it soon here…
Best
Michael
Michael: The thing I don’t understand about the current closing shot is that it (to me) appears to be loaded with the symbolism that, I’m sure was not intended. If choosing from the three shots that you considered, I’d close with the juggler, I guess (which, as I’m sure you know, is a great capture).
David, I’m *always* eager to see alternative edits, not to understate my interest to this particular work.
Arkady,
I like the juggler, but find it too dynamic for a closing. The sight is too direct for my taste (for a closing I mean)
I think I understand your point. I may have missed something here…
In that case, the symbolic of israeli soldier climbing to the cross, emphasized by the fact that this is the last picture has something destabilizing, disconcerting.
…
…
Did I say I may have missed something here? :-)
Thanks for pointing this to me!
Let’s wait for Joe…
Arkady,
My last comment wasn’t clear. What I meant is that although the Juggler can be a closing, it disturbed me for the reasons mentioned, and I preferred the “climbing to the cross”.
Mr. Hassoun,
I stayed out of the “political” side of this “story” the whole time…
and honestly i dont wanna get “involved” because it makes me sick to my stomach…
and ( warning ) a lot will have to do with your potential answer…
( so photos like no3 & no24.. pure propaganda…”early Bush style victory declaration”
photos have nothing to do with reservists…)
Now the Rhetorical question about why anyone that was born in beautiful Democratic country
of France wants to emigrate to the disturbed, violent, violating state of Israel ???
is something that im not gonna ask!
The answer is already disturbing…
Macho, machismo, …and obligation…
Hmmmmmmmmmm…. except from the poisoning pure propaganda that i saw in photos like ( again 3 or 24 ),
i dont really have much more to object…
You did a good job.. Its obvious that you captured well the dissatisfaction of the young Israeli’s serving a PARANOID violent army… that loves exterminating and killing young palestinian kids…
On the other side… i see the answer… Oh .. they attacked as first…
Yes yes yes i know… the eternal question…
who was first? The chicken or the egg????????
But i’m really annoyed not only because of the propaganda ( you totaLLY CROSSED the line…)
but because you didnt DARE to show us the REAL picture….
How many young ( HEALTHY ) Israeli’s flea ( escape ) that crazy state… they come here to the US…
they prefer to be ILLEGALS… they prefer to work in a mall for $5 per hour… not because they are COWARDS… no, not at all… they are the BRAVE ones… that disagree with idiots like the usual Israeli
governors… coming here NOT only for a great future…
but they come here to protest the sick “attack” israeli mentality…
Again… I loved the essay BUT… why propagandize my friend????????
Why did you chose to HIDE from us that the average israeli youth has no right to AVOID serving this crazy,
paranoid army?…
Question: If you are “healthy” ACTIVIST IN ISRAEL… how can you express it in a democratic way?
Can you just say…. for example… “i refuse to serve”??????????
Can you?
I’m upset with your cliche’s mister…. BLINDFOLDED ARABS… and proud israelis…
BULLSHIT……………..
ENOUGH……………
Again … if someone is really BRAVE … and refuses to “serve”… because “serving the army/any army …
is a SLAVE’S job… can you express it?
Because i’m afraid that the modern state of Israel is no different than the old Nazi Germany…
YOU ARE OBLIGED TO SERVE… otherwise you are “gay” or “mentally ill”…
Again, man… what do the BLINDFOLDED PALESTINIANS has to do with the reservists life………..?
except from propaganda of course…
sad day for the “truth”
ARCADY…MICHAEL…
the juggler does seem like the best “opening”, which it is now…some essays do close here with the opener, so maybe that would have worked….the juggler certainly is the most symbolic photograph of the whole take…
…. and yes… my favorite photo IS !!!!!!!!…
GUESS…!!!!!???????????
yep…
u guessed that right…….
the Israeli soldier walking towards his own cross…
I have lots of israeli friends here in L.A….
PROUD to escape that craziness………..
PROUD that never served that army………
i cant believe that u so shameless promoting it…
and maybe im exaggerating here…….. honestly , i dont think you are really promoting it…
I know you regretted it…please dont glamorize death…
you have been an INSIDER…
please be honest… for the sake of the “truth” and HISTORY…
BLINDFOLDED ARABS………..!!!!!!!!!!
ENOUGH dogg…… enough…
been there, done that………..
BIG HUG!
Michael,
I am in strong agreement with Panos.
What I like to add is actually what Arkady posted a few times and have not received a straight answer.
In fact, all of your responses to any of the questions, including mine, have been vague and not to the point.
To my questions you answered it was not War time. Man, I knew that. The war is the first thing media covers and I was reading news during years of 2002 / 2003. One can argue but I have no vested interest in a conflict that has no beginning and no end nor motivates me into a conversation.
Now, let me rephrase what Arkady has posted. The cross, the hill, and the soldier can refer to one and only one story – it is such a clear that symbolism is weakened. I am not religious nor political and am not offended by the picture nor the essay in any way. Instead, I am not satisfied with your answers and, if we personally knew each other, I would have been insulted by your vagueness by taking into consideration that you are a very intelligent person.
BURN is the place to talk. If there is a bloody bull head on the photo, author says it’s a bloody bull head for a reason.
Please throw that cloak you have been covered with in the corner and tell us your feelings that back up those photographs. This is the place to talk.
Peace and hugs to you Michael !
Haik…
did u really expect an ex SOLDIER ( A PAWN TO THEIR GAME as BOB DYLAN once said ..)
to tell the “truth”…?
how…?
A soldier is Not MEANT to even know the “truth”…
A soldier NEVER “SERVES” the “TRUTH”…
A soldier is meant to “serve” his country…
A SOLDIER IS MERELY A SLAVE….
A SOLDIER IS PROUD…
AND “PRIDE” IS ONE OF THE WORST SINS…
ask my boy BUDDHA….God damn it…
a soldier is an IGNORANT..
PROPAGANDA is a soldiers ultimate job….
and SACRIFICE and DEVOTION is their ultimatum…
A soldier is dangerous to the future of all sons and daughters of this earth…
A soldier is THE ENEMY OF PEACE….
A SOLDIER IS AN ALCOHOLIC……
A SOLDIER IS THE OPPOSITE OF RESPECT….
ask my boy…His Holliness… The Dalai Lama…
fuck hypocrites…
Panos
Can you ask your boys – Is soldier allowed to document and present to the world what he has seen?
ttfn
…. and all of u out there that will be fast to judge me as an antisemitic…
fuck your fears…
i could care less…
Again. fuck All and Any army…
Especially the greek Army…
I know ( personally ) that the greek government forces greeks to “serve”…
Of course the UNCIVILISED turkish army is ready for attack…
of course the turks “practicing” GENOCIDE techniques in any given time..
( ask my fellow ARMENIANS – GOOGLE ARMENIAN genocide-)… or the KURDS…
BUT U KNOW WHAT?????????????
THE BRAVEST OF THE BRAVES GREEKS I KNOW….ARE THE ONES THAT…
THEY “REFUSED” TO PLAY THE GAME…
THE “BRAVE” ONES ARE THE ONES ARE THE ONES THAT NEVER “SERVED”….
the rest…. are exactly that… They are the “rest”…
THE “LAZY”….
f**k’em….
LAUGHING…………
TO PLAY THE GAME
http://haiko.net/burn/blind.jpg
War is shit because many people are animals.
We don’t need a war to see how stupid behave humans have.
Everyday on the streets walking an animals.
Then this animals become a soldiers.
Then this soldiers go to war.
Then the newspapers tels us horrible news.
And we wondering how it could happen.
Watch your street.
and once again…
to all my BRAVE greek and ISRAELI brothers that DITCHED
THE ARMY… Fu*k your fascist governments…
go away… DO NOT SERVE….
F**K’EM…
OTHERWISE you gonna end up being a “statistic”…..
be a man…
dont be a RETARD…
please…………
yep…
Marcin… exactly…
thats what i witnessed here… a bunch of proud animals… blindfolding young kids…….
and then a cross…but of course those animals will end up crazy….
because of their crimes…
what a shame…:(
lazy ass soldiers….
……….. BE A MAN…………..
…………..DITCH YOUR COUNTRY’S ARMY……………..
David,
I didn’t know you applied an edit to Michael’s work. Apart from your work-in-process participants, the essays presented seemed to be the exact essays submitted based on the subsequent commentary. This essay was clearly different in that you did apply and edit and I think my suggestion of reworking it is clearly in poor taste.
There’s a time and place for everything, but challenging your edit is like challenging your host in his house; again, it’s just not the done thing. But I didn’t know this and I did essentially challenge the edit so there’s only one graceful way through this, admit the obvious and go through this entirely.
I’ve thought a bit a about what you’ve written about editing and thought hard about why I felt so bold with Michael’s work, with Patricia’s work and maybe a few other pieces of work I’ve interacted with in between with equal conviction.
I hope the conclusion of that thinking doesn’t surprise anyone; It’s a simple fact that I’m more of a fan of photographers than photography; photographs always introduce me to a human and I often forget individual photographs, but never a photographer. More so, I’ve always believed what Erica McDonald once said: a photograph, to some extent, is always a self-portrait.
So my favourite photographers are the ones that reveal the most about themselves by the images they collect. When an essentially ‘self-portrait’ piece of work introduces me to an outstanding specimen of our species I get really excited and want to know everything about them. This probably explains why I think the two gods from photography right now are Trent Parke and Roger Ballen and only partly because of their photographic talent.
With Michael’s piece I took a bold guess that his piece was a self-portrait piece purely by some of the framing. I could be wrong, but with the subsequent information Michael provided it seems this guess was close to home. So by understanding Michael’s attitude or relationship with this piece of his life it was really easy for me to see the images that cement his relationship with this aspect of his life and be so bold as to how to distil a singular message verse an essay of some topical information, even if topical (chronicle) information was what Michael wished to pitch.
I think success with assistance in the edit is two-fold: first does the Author think the editor understands his/her attitudes and intentions? and second does the explanation of the images selected by the editor coalesce to deliver the attitude and intention the Author desires?
With this assistance an editor actually knows if they succeed or are fired before any audience experiences the essay, because as i’ve said, the Author’s intentions are the master of both the Author and the editor, but the Author decides success or failure of the editor, not the audience. The audience of the essay decides the success or failure of the Author’s intention and the Author’s ‘approved edited implementation’ of the Author’s images.
So of course my first step with Michael was to be very deliberate in conveying to him what I felt him and his images to be about, it didn’t look at all like flirting, it was brutal, but we bonded quickly because of it. The next steps were to evaluate each image against the message and decide if it added or reduced the strength of the intent, that’s where I would say we left off, far before sequencing could take place.
That being said I would say that there were ten strong images that never made the Burn edit, I hope this raises some eye brows, and this brings up a good point. I’m going to carve something you said David entirely out of context and put words in your mouth… kidding. But really let me describe why I think editing is a ‘dark’ art.
I ‘am’ going to grab this sentence David to illustrate this:
“see mostly “doubles” of situations presented on BURN…if you find another really important picture or two that somehow “says it better”, then i will be most pleased”
Ok, the concept of repetition is a fantastic ‘concept‘, but if the audience thinks a repeat breaks a rule they won’t let the illusion work on them.
To be specific, there’s a single image in the BURN essay of the men sleeping, to put a second one in might seem like a repeat, but when you understand the relationship Michael has with this part of his life and what parts of this experience are important you realise that it’s not a picture of people sleeping it’s actually a ritual, thus two other revealing ‘men-sleeping’ images in the super-set become important, each with very revealing body language and each supporting the human condition of the message (super-set image 29 awkward body language and 46 man look at man awkwardly loading banana clip in bed). Seeing a string of these sleeping ritual images starts to unlock the story of the awkward feel of being poured inside the same strange container.
To talk about another essay with similar more pronounced repetitive spirit in the context of a photo essay, it’s not unlike the ritual of rock and roll as laced inside Frank’s Americans via juke boxes.
Now here’s where it get’s interesting, is the essay a lyric or a story? When does repetition reinforce soul and when does it weaken the result? This is why editing is a dark art for me especially when it’s not trying to be didactic or linear or topical or supportive of written words. But a pure photo essay should be exactly the opposite of these former motives as none of those things work well without written words, but ambiguity and mood always works better without words, me thinks ;-)
Michael and I are chatting again, we should have something agreed in the next day or two. Thanks for the support.
-Joe
JOE…
there is not one word you wrote with which i disagree…except maybe our respective interpretations of “autobiographic” is a bit different (but, yes all fine photographers are looking in the mirror)…again, this is a “given” Joe…who ever said otherwise?? you tend to set up sort of a “false discussion” as if someone had presented material otherwise….then you disagree with a proposition nobody proposed!! i guess this is just the way you write..so i will cut you slack on this….
however, and to the point, the back and forth conversations with photographers i either mentor or edit is exactly as you describe…i only care about what the photographer is telling me… in an edit for a book or an exhibition i would have included the images you suggest and i held those very ones until the last minute…..oh yes, by the way, some essays i edit here on BURN , some i do not…it just depends on how the essay feels…
however, i always see the medium where work is presented as affecting how the work is edited…i see a slide show as one medium, an exhibition another, a magazine piece another, and a book as the final best medium for presenting a photographer…
BURN is definitely not a final resting place for work…it is an online presentation that is intended more as a “preview”..to introduce photographers to a wider audience and help them establish themselves so that their work will end up in perhaps a book….that is why we attach the websites of the photographers…i.e. that is why i am working with Patricia for her book which will be a different animal than what was presented on BURN…who wants to actually see photography on a computer screen?? not me for sure…this imperfect way of looking at photographs is , as per stated so many times here, is only to move us towards print……i.e. a printed version of BURN at years end…and/or books/exhibitions for individual photographers…
in this spirit of general “work in progress” which is the very nature of BURN in the first place, i did not see your wanting to re-edit as a “challenge”….i found it interesting and i await the link that Michael and you finally put up…c’mon Joe, if you do a strong edit , i will put you to work immediately as a picture editor…we have stories in “the bank” you might love to tackle..and in a very practical way i can use all the help i can get….you should have figured out by now that i am open to ideas, and am generally all inclusive…were i not, i doubt i would be producing BURN in the first place….i think you might be a quite good editor, and all the photography world knows that we need more good editors than we need more good photographers….i never had dreams of being an editor and still do not…this “job” fell upon me as a spinoff from my workshops.. but, maybe you do have this dream….i sense you would be happiest being a Roland Barthes, an A.D.Coleman , a Max Kozloff or a Jean Dykstra…is this correct?? i see you more this way than i see you trying to be a photographer…..am i wrong??
now Joe, we have gone this far with this discussion , so please please send your link soonest…i really want to see, and i think others do as well, if the way you think and write turns into actual picture presentation literacy here online…if so, you have a new job!! not joking….we are carving out something new here…you are already a part of it…you can be more….
cheers, david
Mr. Skoulidas
So much passion,
So little brains…
I can handle your answer, consider your opinion, until five lines before the end of your comment.
I kindly propose you to go do some homework on history, coldly analyze what the situation in Israel is, and reconsider the passionate proof of your ignorance and hate you give us here today.
If you do it (I believe you won’t), you may even find the answer to my personal choices in life.
Haik
I certainly don’t mean to insult anyone by refusing to answer certain questions.
Do you really think knowing what is my opinion on what is going on in Israel will add to the photographic discussion?
Or will it simply bring the discussion on political paths?
The only personal feeling that I have, the reason I took a camera and started to shoot (pictures) is what I wrote earlier. That the press is showing the same stereotypic story again and again.
You could analyze easily the iconery of the Arab-Israel conflict.
Israeli soldier from the back, no face, aiming a rifle to a young Palestinian kid throwing a stone ..
Do I have to say:
– “I don’t hate Palestinians”
– “Some of my best friends…”
To have a discussion on my pictures?
I said it and I repeat. I am not here to promote anything, other than saying: “look, there is another story, something that may surprise you”
I don’t have the truth. the truth is plural.
I am very comfortable with this way of seing things, and the repeated refusal from the press to show the pictures, with arguments like “It doesn’t interest us. Only in the case things will get worse in Gaza will we be interested in the pictures of the conflict”
or
“We show only pictures from the side of the victims” (in Perpignan, 2005 from a magazine that put pictures of Afgan refugees in a book on Israel)
Enough said.
About the last picture, as I said, I may have missed a point.
I mean it.
I don’t know enough about the Christian iconery. It’s not a way not to give an answer.
Can you please enlight me on the only meaning this image can have? The only way of understanding it?
Even if this seems obvious, please do. I may lack the references…
Sorry,
It should read:
I am very comfortable with this way of seing things, and the repeated refusal from the press to show the pictures, with arguments like “It doesn’t interest us. Only in the case things will get worse in Gaza will we be interested in the pictures of the conflict”
or
“We show only pictures from the side of the victims” (in Perpignan, 2005 from a magazine that put pictures of Afgan refugees in a book on Israel)..
comforts me in my opinion.
Mr Skoulidas
You may find it hard to spot in your own verbiage the reason that makes it impossible for me to have a intelligent discussion with you.
I was referring to the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany….
And yes, you are an antisemitic idiot,
and yes, I fear idiots like you.
I have some reasons to.
Michael. With all due respect; this essay does not read to me in any way apolitical.
It is loaded with contextual signs and symbols that take it very firmly into the political/ideological arena. it would be very hard indeed to imagine an essay shot under these conditions as being anything but.
Youre stated aim was to make this a study on diverse people thrown into cameraderie under in service of miluim. A big task. A minefield perhaps[pun intended]. It always strikes me as funny how people can so often not see themselves reflected in their own words, pictures and deeds. The mirror faces the wrong way perhaps. I am sure that you and those who you photograph are good just people, as much as you are bad self serving people, just like ANY group of people forced together through life will be. SHOW ME THAT.
Show me what it REALLY means to be part of this group. show me WHY you all do it, and why some dont.
SHOW ME REAL LIFE….because otherwise, like it or not, you are just making a self censcored piece of fluff.
Note
I am reminded that ‘while you may not like your family, they are you family still, and when push comes to shove you stand beside them regardless’
PEACE
John
David,
I’m both embarrassed for good reasons and bad, but glad of both. I write sometimes more than what’s needed, I do so to be sure not to be misunderstood, it creates contextual contrast, I see for you it feels like shaving with sand paper ;-) I’ll take this on the chin and rethink the efficiency of not what I say, but the way I say it, but thanks for cutting me some slack :~)
Also, I’m certain I got it wrong with your editing effort, I understand now (I think) your goal: it’s to hi-light someone’s work, not necessary cement a single message, especially if it could prevent people from seeing the texture, variety, and calibre of the universe of work someone possesses. Sounds like I’m admitting the obvious, but that wasn’t obvious to me.
The other things you mention are mind expanding, I’ve not thought of any of that, so I’ll take it for what I can now, an amazing compliment, I’ll also only focus on what I can do now, and that’s agree a set and sequence of images with Michael.
Michael, if you’re reading this, pick up your phone!
Everyone else, can we all just stand-down for a moment of time, but I hope not for long.
Thank you,
Joe
JOE…
you are an extremely thoughtful, articulate, and intelligent man …i have said that before…so, everything i write to you is ALWAYS in that context and with respect….if we misunderstand each other or see things from different points of view, let’s just say so…after all, this is a forum….it is all good and all part of our collaborative effort here…
BURN is nothing without (a) photographers submitting work (b) comments from the readers evaluating both the photographer and my decision to publish from this submitted pool…all magazines have “letters to the editor”….in print magazines, the editors pick and choose which “letters” they will publish…here there is no censorship or editing by me of comments coming in, unless something totally inappropriate from an unidentified person flies in the door…i think in three years i have deleted 3 or 4 comments which were either overtly sexual in nature or with such bad language as to freeze most of us in our tracks…
if i have you as a “guest editor/writer” i will certainly bring in a few more as well…this could be a very interesting evolution for BURN….to have an essay by a particular photographer with the text and maybe the edit by someone else in collaboration with the photographer…this could be very provocative indeed…after all, that is what happens at any print magazine….
cheers, david
MICHAEL
the only meaning this image can have?
——————————–
I suppose they saw an israeli soldier being a symbol for a nation walking up to its Golgotha, or going to hang a people on it, or…. Or….. Or….., and….. at the very least mired inextricably into modern and ancient, new and original sin. That crap
Cross is symbol of inflected immolation, become self-inflicted wound, but also tree of knowledge, and etc…..
Me, I see a guy in uniform walking up a hill where there is a barely standing cross, wich I don’t even ask myself what it is doing there, since we are in “holy land”. Yet again, i do not drink or ingurgitate anything but coffee, water, and possibly, a beer after work, which may explain why.
The discussion on the last picture of an essay should be viewed on its photographic and narrative strength, not hidden meaning. Photography is the Ali Baba’s cavern of hidden meaning. You can drive yourself sniffing them out….
yourself CRAZY sniffing them….
Laughing…
Yes, I could see your fear….from miles away..
Please try to go on with your life…
Keep on promoting your fears..
Keep being a slave to your fears…
and don’t worry..
There’s nothing intellectual
about me..:)))
Keep sending your kids to the army…
Keep promoting slavory and death..
And like u said:
I’m the idiot and you’re the smart guy..
I’m the common and you’re the “chosen”..( in your little world ofcourse ).
:))))))
Laughing…
Herve ,
You are right..
That Cross does not belong to
“that” soldier…
“that” belongs to someone he just
Killed….
Do you really think knowing what is my opinion on what is going on in Israel will add to the photographic discussion?
Doesn’t photograph express an opinion of a photographer the same way as the written word?
Honestly, I could give a rat’s ass to who and why nailed the dude on a certain hill in a fairy tail book. My point has and always been that religion is mostly a method of control and it serves the purpose since its invention.
Michael, your attempt on this essay was not with an intent – I clearly see that. There was no project in your mind when you packed your camera with you on miluim. You did it because it was fun – you did it because you have seen photos by Koudelka, Nachtwey and thought you may give it a try. You have a bunch of pictures anyone one of us takes while going to a party or a gathering of some sort. Just pictures. You happened to be in a slightly different gathering then the rest of us who takes pictures.
We don’t make essay’s off of those pictures and then present it to others except to those that have participated.
There is no “life in miluim” in this essay. None whatsoever. These are mostly spur of the moment pictures and you wanted to give it an intent. That pisses me off.
Think twice before presenting any photograph – you will be asked questions. A lot of questions. And not answering them is not going to help you.
Michael – don’t you ever think that what I say is in any way an attempt to be personal. It is just about your view and my view on certain things.
If and when you are in Los Angeles shout here on Burn – I would like to have a drink with you. In my house. After all, I am an engineer myself – we could find technical shit to discuss if nothing else :).
cheers.
ALL
WHERE IS PATRICIA LAY-DORSAY?
Haik,
with all due respect, it’s David who chose to entry the essay, not Michael. You should be addressing him, not Michael on the assumed irrelevance of the project. Not sure what would be wrong with Michael not having a steely intent, or being a mere happy shooter, though…. So fucking what?
Herve, thanks for your help. You are right, I did not think people will take it as a strong, sophisticated message to the world. because there are at least a couple of contradictory interpretations when you go that route.
John thinks that the essay is a “self-censored piece of fluff”.
I made a point to take pictures of arrestations just in order not to do so. believe me, I DID NOT censured these pictures for political reasons. But if you are trained to think that an Israeli soldier is all day involved in beating and killing, you will inevitably believe that I hided something here.
On the other side, Haik is pissed off because I just took some pictures of my boy-scouts friends, with no strongly built agenda, when such an agenda would have been the direct way to show….
…a self-censured piece of fluff.
Please read again my explanations on the motivations to my taking a camera and taking pictures there. I’m sorry if it’s too much of a political agenda.
I’m sorry if it’s not enough.
Enough apologizing.
You like my pictures, fine.
You don’t, fine too, really.
You can’t have a clear look at them because of what you think you know on the situation in the middle east.
I can only feel sorry for you.
I just finished what is for me one of two or three best books I have ever read:
“Voyage au bout de la nuit”, par Louis-Ferdinand Celine, who was a quite despicable person, and a violent antisemite during the “dark ages” of the 20th century.
If I would have been blinded by the personality of the writer, I simply would have missed a masterpiece, something that really means a lot in my life.
I will finish on a verse of Georges Brassens:
“Gloire a celui qui se borne a ne pas trop emmerder son voisin”
I try…
I was sick all the day because of what I read in the morning.
I know this sickness.
I can’t take it.
I’m out of here.
You have my mail.
Outta here too, but Michael! Celine is my favorite writer (despite….), and anyone not french being able to quote Brassens, and such Brassens, well, hats off to you, my….. copain d’ abord!
:-)
Michael, Panos is not antisemitic. The fire of life burns bright in him, and I remember its warmth. He wears his heart on his sleeve and is articulating what many think: “suppose they gave a war and nobody came?”.
I know, it’s easy to sit in the comfortable West and pontificate. Do stick around Michael, open windows here.
I was listening to a Magnum in Motion story the other day from Larry Towel – about Palestine. At one point he showed keys to Palestinian houses; many of which no-longer exist. The tragedy of Israel/Palestine is that both parties are right; they both belong. Someday, israel will have to confront the issue of the keys. Magnum photographer Abbas, in his book Allah O Akbar titles a chapter about israel/Palestine as “My Cousin, my Enemy”.
My hope is that peace and JUSTICE can be established soon and not later because everyone is just too exhausted to fight anymore.
Stay with us Michael.
Shalom, Salaam,
Mike.
“I have only one thing I hope to convey to you today. We are all human beings, individuals transcending nationality, race and religion, and we are all eggs, we are all fragile eggs faced with a solid wall called “The System.” To all appearances, we have no hope of winning. The wall is too high and too strong and too cold. If we have any hope of victory at all, it will have to come from our believing in the utter uniqueness and irreplaceability of our own and others’ souls and from our believing in the warmth we gain by joining souls together.
Take a moment to think about this. Each of us possesses a tangible, living soul. The System has no such thing. We must not allow the System to exploit us. We must not allow the System to take on a life of its own. The System didn’t make us, we made the System.”
— Haruki Murakami in his Jerusalem Prize acceptance speech: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2009/02/20/haruki_murakami/
I’ve looked at this Michael’s essay a few times in the past few days. The photographs that tell me a story are, in this sequence, 11, 1, 2, 17 and 22.
Simon
MIKE R…SIMON
many thanks….
peace, david
MICHAEL…
please do not equate statements about military service with antisemitism…if you read carefully Panos’ anti-military comments he blasted his own Greek military along with all the others, not just Israeli military…he referred to his Israeli friends in California….as Mike said, Panos wears his heart on his shirtsleeve…we all have a different voice…
i am sure you knew as well that your essay would in some way be controversial…so did i…after all, the most perplexing controversy on the planet is in fact the Israeli/Palestinian one which affects the whole world, including those of us who are not part of it directly at all…we are all drawn in whether we like it or not…believe me, we are all sick to our stomach….
as i hoped would happen, you have explained yourself and your work well as a gentleman and educated man….please rise above all comments that you feel are in conflict with your heart and soul..otherwise through misunderstandings of words we will have yet right here a mini example of how conflict arises in the first place…
i have only been to Israel/Palestine once and for a very short time..two weeks…but, in that short time i realized, even way beyond my education from the press, the complexities beyond complexities which exist…definitely not a clear black & white situation…i met good people on both sides of that wall which blocks out the sun…that is easy, that is a given….however, we need more than ever fine photographers and writers on both sides of the wall to help create a bridge…you should be one of them….otherwise we are all doomed to witnessing endless bloodshed forever…
peace, david
p.s. please contact me soonest at : david@burnmagazine.org….i would like to discuss your future projects
Hello All,
after far too much drama and alot of water under the dam Michael and i lined up our time zones and agreed this edit. Sorry for the frame numbers :-)
http://www.realreportage.com/Burn
Thanks David for the offer.
Michael, Panos, Haik, David, All :))
Michael: this morning, i finally returned to this thread after being away since friday night….what an interesting and ‘energetic’ post it’s become…maybe even a bit alarming of a change inf turn, but let me try to put some thoughts to the fire that has since blown up….I dont know how important this discussion is at this point, but i think it is a necessary one…
Let me start off by saying that above all Panos and Haik (and others) are NOT anti-semetic and maybe the difficulty in dealing with this topic lay at the heart of the problem and anger you feel, but i’ll get to that later…
First, Michael, have you read Amos Oz biography/memoir “A Tale of Love and Darkness”?…ostensibly this book has nothing to do with the difficulties facing Israelis/Palestians, nor this horrendous, seemingly indefigable problem, but after reading all the comments above, and the reaction, i wish to invoke him. I am happy you’ve invoked both Celine (a favorite of mine too, but a troubled person) and Brassens (maybe people should hear him sing that line, which does have a gross irony in the context of the current difficulties troubling there) make sense in the context of the comments that have come up, but the reason i want to return you to Oz is to remember squarely the tragectory of his mother’s life and what that might suggest to everyone attempting to fathom the darkness that surrounds us, each of us.
Let me say LOUDLY AND CLEARLY that I know Panos personally. He is as far from an anti-semite as one can imagine: in fact, to the contrary, he’s one of the most open and honest and yes, heart-on-the-sleeve (fuck, he’s Greek, right?) guys i’ve ever met. both of us are passionate loud moths: go figure: he’s greek and im an irish american. But Panos reaction/words and perception of this essay is IMPORTANT because his view point is important and i think his and Haik and others reactions actually are important to consider in light of this essay: the context outside the context of this essay. Again, i’ll get to that idea later. But I want to assure that that because Panos (and others) have a very passionate problem with some of the work or with the ideas they read into it or have anger toward either the military or people serving in the military, these ideas and points of view are legitimate and important and I think it is very important that they NOT be discounted or reacted to in a harsh manner. All anti-semites, or anti-anyone could use a lesson from him, because he’s about as embracing as anyone i know, even if his comments here are abbrasive to some people. He’s a larger-than-life guy, but one think i know about Panos is that he cares about people, alot and he cares about suffering, alot and makes no judgment. Shit, he’s a white, greek geek living in a world of hip-hop, bad ass, white, black, asian latino life, christians, jews, muslims, non-believers, buddhists like me, they’re all part of his rainbow jones train. believe me. But I think his concerns and others here are very important to consider: both as a photographer as well as a reservist.
Let me mention about the ‘context’ of your story. As i’ve written a bunch of times already, this story (for me) is NOT about the problems with Gaza/West Bank of recent or in general, the entire Israel/Palestine dilemma/problem. I think because you have choosen to photograph members of the IDF (albeit reservists), your story invariably evokes that discussion: war, land issues, terrorism, human rights issues, death, occupation, etc. It IS impossible to photograph any aspect of Israeli life, let alone military life, without confronting the problem. Surely, you understand this. My arguments in support of this essay has been as a way for people to attempt to remove their political or moral reactions aside, and try to digest the story: the life of a reservist and what this entails. Now, part of that story MUST confront that issue. It is impossible to be a reservist without taking a position on the Palestine question and for many (me included) serving as a reservist tactily supports Occupation: something i am politically and morally absolutely AGAINST. However, my role as a photographer and as a reader here is to try to understand and value the work for the story that is being told, attempting to remove my own historical and/or moral/political prejudices. I think the questions, dealing with the Palestinians blindfolded is a very important one, and one that must me addressed in a longer piece. these are problematic, and i think the power and strength of your essay is it’s ambiguity. We are not given a moral answer to this problem. And I see photographs that ‘question’ the position of the military vis-a-vis palestinians. I think your approach to ‘showing’ us the difficulty of the plight of the Palestians is there, in a number of photographs and maybe some viewers haven’t caught or felt it. Maybe, that’s a solution too for you, taking their cricitism. Maybe you, if you return, should flesh out the division, the problems, the different moral perspectives that the men in the service have.
the problem is that when a photographer tells a story, the reader must try to decide what is their (photographers) role. If your role is to ‘depcit’ ‘witness’ ‘report’ objectively the life of these men, than it is also important to deal, explicitly or elsewise, the conflict that exists within the reservist community: maybe some of them find the act of being a reservist morally challenging, as the line between defense of one’s nation/family entails, often, the destruction/reduction of anothers nation/family: that is a complex more quandry that NOONE can solve easily. In fact, I would argue, phenomonologically, it is impossible to reconcile, because the idea of nation often means the denial of another, especially when 2 share claim to the same land. How to reconcile this?….well…there are books and books and songs and songs and poems and pomes and generation after generation trying to fix this and certain Burn nor I are capable of that. but I must say the beginning of the path toward at least the mirage of a solution is that people must see the OTHER not as a paradigm or an object (terrorist, occupier or in the case of people who loathe the idf or the current israeli government as anti-semetic) but as people clayey, broken, sad, weighted people who are imposed upon by history and politics and shitty circumstances and ideas….this we must ascertain.
The difficulty is again in the reading of imagery, which are both shorn and attached to the context and reality of what happens in Israel and in Gaza/West Bank. I understand why Panos, Haik and others were/are frustrated with the story and imagery. It is unsettling to juxtapose photographs of seemingly calm, joy, nonchalance against pictures of palestinians blindfolder. It IS easy to read this pictures, vis-a-vis the men blindfolded, as unfeeling, insensitity: the palestinians are objectified, not-real, as the israeli reservists. I see and feel that too, but I do not condemn you or the essay for it, because i see the ‘context’ of the story very differently. I see one of the difficulties of this story as just that: the tremendous chasm between the reality of their lives and the suffering of the palestians and the complexity and problem that this means. And i agree, part of being a reservist entails, at least implicity, supporting decisions made by IDF and israeli government. Im a noam chomsky guy, so, i guess that’s no surprise.
However, you must be careful NOT to dismiss critical reaction to both the essay and your work as well as the circumstances as anti-semetic. That would be a grave mistake and a misfortunate one. the problem is one of just that: in a posture of fear and exhaustion, good people continually good or react poorly, because of the circumstances of weight and suffering. I, philosophically speaking, believe that there is a difference between the relationship of people and their lives with the imposition of state, but a discussion of that might not be germain at the moment. Being a reservist is a tacit support of the actions in Gaza and for many many, that is a moral failure and maybe that’s how they see and articulate this. I feel the same as they do…but, I believe that the way to engage is to try to view the story through the eyes or mouth of the story teller. I think your story has done a great job of dealing with the life of the reservist within the confines of safety. Should the question and conflict of Palestian be incorporated into this essay: YES, ABSOLUTELY! It must, because i am certain this discussion and argument and anger is a part of all reservists (and all Israeli’s lives) time during their duty. without this insight, you run the risk of allowing the Palestians in the story to look more like objects rather than people and you also run the risk of making the reservists look like storm troopers.
In the end, the questions that Panos, Haik and others have asked, or what they have written are necessary points to consider. I think it is so important not to dismiss them or to dismiss their passion or moral framework by counting it as anti-semetic. Until I became a buddhist, i was a zionist: i believed that the state of Israel was a necessary and essential place. I also have always believed that the Palestians must have a nation and a homeland of their own. since, I loathe the concept of all nations, as i see them, more and more, as exclusionary ideas: places built upon the corruption of government and power and wealth to oppress and reduce people. I am a Chomsky-ite, but also a buddhist and increasingly it is hard to abide the destruction of what happens to gaze, west bank and all palestiansn, in the name of nationhood and security. Sadly, too, the palestian people have often been bretrayed by their own leadership as well: go figure: leaders fuck over people. But the squalid and unimaginably impoverished life of the average palestian is so difficult and tenous that most israelis and most westerners have no clue. I have close close friends who are israelis and palestians. I have students who are from israel (both jewish and palestian) and it’s a complex problem. But the one idea that is SO NECESSARY is to reflect and listen, even amid the anger, the spitting, the crying and the war cries…it is so important….
I support this essay categorically. But I also want you to know that I think it is not only dangeous but does a disservice to Panos, and others, who have problems with the essay, to dismiss them as anti-semetic or aggressive. I return to Amos Oz and his book….
we are surrounded by darkness on all sides, the darkenss that is reigned down upon us and the darkness we cloak ourselves in….it is the latter, that is the more troubling…and we must do all we can pitch against that….
I stand beside Panos in solidarity for his ideas and anger (with all military or aggression) just has I applaud your work. It is not about not taking sides, it is about listening….there is already enough hatred to drown the world we’ve set aflame….we must do better….we owe it do at least try….
bob b
Michael, Panos, Haik, David, All :))
Michael: this morning, i finally returned to this thread after being away since friday night….what an interesting and ‘energetic’ post it’s become…maybe even a bit alarming of a change inf turn, but let me try to put some thoughts to the fire that has since blown up….I dont know how important this discussion is at this point, but i think it is a necessary one…
Let me start off by saying that above all Panos and Haik (and others) are NOT anti-semetic and maybe the difficulty in dealing with this topic lay at the heart of the problem and anger you feel, but i’ll get to that later…
First, Michael, have you read Amos Oz biography/memoir “A Tale of Love and Darkness”?…ostensibly this book has nothing to do with the difficulties facing Israelis/Palestians, nor this horrendous, seemingly indefigable problem, but after reading all the comments above, and the reaction, i wish to invoke him. I am happy you’ve invoked both Celine (a favorite of mine too, but a troubled person) and Brassens (maybe people should hear him sing that line, which does have a gross irony in the context of the current difficulties troubling there) make sense in the context of the comments that have come up, but the reason i want to return you to Oz is to remember squarely the tragectory of his mother’s life and what that might suggest to everyone attempting to fathom the darkness that surrounds us, each of us.
Let me say LOUDLY AND CLEARLY that I know Panos personally. He is as far from an anti-semite as one can imagine: in fact, to the contrary, he’s one of the most open and honest and yes, heart-on-the-sleeve (fuck, he’s Greek, right?) guys i’ve ever met. both of us are passionate loud moths: go figure: he’s greek and im an irish american. But Panos reaction/words and perception of this essay is IMPORTANT because his view point is important and i think his and Haik and others reactions actually are important to consider in light of this essay: the context outside the context of this essay. Again, i’ll get to that idea later. But I want to assure that that because Panos (and others) have a very passionate problem with some of the work or with the ideas they read into it or have anger toward either the military or people serving in the military, these ideas and points of view are legitimate and important and I think it is very important that they NOT be discounted or reacted to in a harsh manner. All anti-semites, or anti-anyone could use a lesson from him, because he’s about as embracing as anyone i know, even if his comments here are abbrasive to some people. He’s a larger-than-life guy, but one think i know about Panos is that he cares about people, alot and he cares about suffering, alot and makes no judgment. Shit, he’s a white, greek geek living in a world of hip-hop, bad ass, white, black, asian latino life, christians, jews, muslims, non-believers, buddhists like me, they’re all part of his rainbow jones train. believe me. But I think his concerns and others here are very important to consider: both as a photographer as well as a reservist.
Let me mention about the ‘context’ of your story. As i’ve written a bunch of times already, this story (for me) is NOT about the problems with Gaza/West Bank of recent or in general, the entire Israel/Palestine dilemma/problem. I think because you have choosen to photograph members of the IDF (albeit reservists), your story invariably evokes that discussion: war, land issues, terrorism, human rights issues, death, occupation, etc. It IS impossible to photograph any aspect of Israeli life, let alone military life, without confronting the problem. Surely, you understand this. My arguments in support of this essay has been as a way for people to attempt to remove their political or moral reactions aside, and try to digest the story: the life of a reservist and what this entails. Now, part of that story MUST confront that issue. It is impossible to be a reservist without taking a position on the Palestine question and for many (me included) serving as a reservist tactily supports Occupation: something i am politically and morally absolutely AGAINST. However, my role as a photographer and as a reader here is to try to understand and value the work for the story that is being told, attempting to remove my own historical and/or moral/political prejudices. I think the questions, dealing with the Palestinians blindfolded is a very important one, and one that must me addressed in a longer piece. these are problematic, and i think the power and strength of your essay is it’s ambiguity. We are not given a moral answer to this problem. And I see photographs that ‘question’ the position of the military vis-a-vis palestinians. I think your approach to ‘showing’ us the difficulty of the plight of the Palestians is there, in a number of photographs and maybe some viewers haven’t caught or felt it. Maybe, that’s a solution too for you, taking their cricitism. Maybe you, if you return, should flesh out the division, the problems, the different moral perspectives that the men in the service have.
the problem is that when a photographer tells a story, the reader must try to decide what is their (photographers) role. If your role is to ‘depcit’ ‘witness’ ‘report’ objectively the life of these men, than it is also important to deal, explicitly or elsewise, the conflict that exists within the reservist community: maybe some of them find the act of being a reservist morally challenging, as the line between defense of one’s nation/family entails, often, the destruction/reduction of anothers nation/family: that is a complex more quandry that NOONE can solve easily. In fact, I would argue, phenomonologically, it is impossible to reconcile, because the idea of nation often means the denial of another, especially when 2 share claim to the same land. How to reconcile this?….well…there are books and books and songs and songs and poems and pomes and generation after generation trying to fix this and certain Burn nor I are capable of that. but I must say the beginning of the path toward at least the mirage of a solution is that people must see the OTHER not as a paradigm or an object (terrorist, occupier or in the case of people who loathe the idf or the current israeli government as anti-semetic) but as people clayey, broken, sad, weighted people who are imposed upon by history and politics and shitty circumstances and ideas….this we must ascertain.
The difficulty is again in the reading of imagery, which are both shorn and attached to the context and reality of what happens in Israel and in Gaza/West Bank. I understand why Panos, Haik and others were/are frustrated with the story and imagery. It is unsettling to juxtapose photographs of seemingly calm, joy, nonchalance against pictures of palestinians blindfolder. It IS easy to read this pictures, vis-a-vis the men blindfolded, as unfeeling, insensitity: the palestinians are objectified, not-real, as the israeli reservists. I see and feel that too, but I do not condemn you or the essay for it, because i see the ‘context’ of the story very differently. I see one of the difficulties of this story as just that: the tremendous chasm between the reality of their lives and the suffering of the palestians and the complexity and problem that this means. And i agree, part of being a reservist entails, at least implicity, supporting decisions made by IDF and israeli government. Im a noam chomsky guy, so, i guess that’s no surprise.
However, you must be careful NOT to dismiss critical reaction to both the essay and your work as well as the circumstances as anti-semetic. That would be a grave mistake and a misfortunate one. the problem is one of just that: in a posture of fear and exhaustion, good people continually good or react poorly, because of the circumstances of weight and suffering. I, philosophically speaking, believe that there is a difference between the relationship of people and their lives with the imposition of state, but a discussion of that might not be germain at the moment. Being a reservist is a tacit support of the actions in Gaza and for many many, that is a moral failure and maybe that’s how they see and articulate this. I feel the same as they do…but, I believe that the way to engage is to try to view the story through the eyes or mouth of the story teller. I think your story has done a great job of dealing with the life of the reservist within the confines of safety. Should the question and conflict of Palestian be incorporated into this essay: YES, ABSOLUTELY! It must, because i am certain this discussion and argument and anger is a part of all reservists (and all Israeli’s lives) time during their duty. without this insight, you run the risk of allowing the Palestians in the story to look more like objects rather than people and you also run the risk of making the reservists look like storm troopers.
In the end, the questions that Panos, Haik and others have asked, or what they have written are necessary points to consider. I think it is so important not to dismiss them or to dismiss their passion or moral framework by counting it as anti-semetic. Until I became a buddhist, i was a zionist: i believed that the state of Israel was a necessary and essential place. I also have always believed that the Palestians must have a nation and a homeland of their own. since, I loathe the concept of all nations, as i see them, more and more, as exclusionary ideas: places built upon the corruption of government and power and wealth to oppress and reduce people. I am a Chomsky-ite, but also a buddhist and increasingly it is hard to abide the destruction of what happens to gaze, west bank and all palestiansn, in the name of nationhood and security. Sadly, too, the palestian people have often been bretrayed by their own leadership as well: go figure: leaders fuck over people. But the squalid and unimaginably impoverished life of the average palestian is so difficult and tenous that most israelis and most westerners have no clue. I have close close friends who are israelis and palestians. I have students who are from israel (both jewish and palestian) and it’s a complex problem. But the one idea that is SO NECESSARY is to reflect and listen, even amid the anger, the spitting, the crying and the war cries…it is so important….
I support this essay categorically. But I also want you to know that I think it is not only dangeous but does a disservice to Panos, and others, who have problems with the essay, to dismiss them as anti-semetic or aggressive. I return to Amos Oz and his book….
we are surrounded by darkness on all sides, the darkenss that is reigned down upon us and the darkness we cloak ourselves in….it is the latter, that is the more troubling…and we must do all we can pitch against that….
I stand beside Panos in solidarity for his ideas and anger (with all military or aggression) just has I applaud your work. It is not about not taking sides, it is about listening….there is already enough hatred to drown the world we’ve set aflame….we must do better….we owe it do at least try….
bob
Bob, please send me an email address.
MH:
no problem, please write me. I’d love to talk :)))…
ok:
bluewordsme2@gmail.com (oh, my god, i’ve just given the world my private email)….
I’ll be off the computer for the rest of the day/night…but, i’ll log on tomorrow…send me your thoughts
ok, Homer must cook his wife and son dinner (monday, my turn): even a Greek poet must cook the meal :))
cheers
BOB….
…perfect….
peace, david
JOE….
your edit is just fine…i do not see that the story is any different than before, but maybe you have an explanation for why you did what…
Joe, we need to be in the same room for this….
anyway, almost everything you chose were pictures i had in there in the beginning “first round” edit, but eliminated because i thought we had another very similar picture that “said the same thing” but just was a better photograph…
#13, and #15 could be good choices to add….however, #7 and #23 ??? please explain…i do not get at all your second picture of the reservist sitting on the bed looking at the camera and then soon thereafter another soldier sitting on a bed with the Arafat poster looking at his fingernails???..sure i like the Arafat poster (pretty obvious) and there should be a picture there, but there is not a picture there..elements yes, but picture no.. the soldier on the bed is, well, doing nothing except looking at his fingernails, right??? ..doing nothing is ok, but i mean doing nothing as far as making a fine photograph is concerned..you have in your edit at least four pictures of soldiers sitting on beds…?????…also the soldiers checking Palestinian i.d.’s in the truck..is that really much of a picture???…do we not have this element better already??
it seems Joe that you edit and like pictures for the elements which are indeed in the picture, but the picture is not a photograph..big difference…the “key words” are there, but still no photo….do you see what i mean?? if photographing the proper or key elements were all that photography was about, then we would not be on the same page at all….remember our differences on the Senegal story?? same thing here….you are not “wrong” Joe…we just have very different ideas about a “photograph”…at least some of the time…actually, your very best pictures here are also my very best choices….it is always the mediocre photos which hang everyone up…always
i just do not see any different message or added message or missing element than from what we published..all seem like “either/or” to me ..but, maybe you and Michael have spoken by phone…you know more what he is trying to say than do i..and on this particular story , i would go with what Michael wants….if he is happy, i am happy…please either of you tell me in your opinion what different message has been added here..for those of us who know nothing of Israeli reservist life, what was said in this edit different from what we published?? i am really curious to know…
but, again, what you did works for sure overall ..i do not see us as different overall in the basic story..
the only thing i still think is that the juggler is far and away the best lead…yes, it also works as a closer too..but, if you can only use it once , i see it as a lead…the guys standing on the road by the tanks just does not seem like a lead for me..why do you see it so?? anyway these are always the discussions among editors…
none of my comments are personal, and all of it is subjective of course…
Michael and i both thank you….and i hope you will do more for us in the future….
cheers, david
Thank you David, I’m sure you can imagine I felt that I really put my chin out there for a haymaker, so this is a pleasing result. I would love to chat in detail over a three course meal regarding the architecture of a photo essay, but safe to say there was a very deliberate design to our effort with this essay.
Let me try and give a quick response to your reaction David. For me there was only one strong singular message that these images could support, simply that this was a ‘mandate‘, not an ‘aspiration’ for Michael and others he photographed, we wished for the images to suggest this with out telling us this.
So to architect this story I didn’t really care about any of the ‘actions’ of the soldiers. We focused entirely on the body language of the soldiers and through body language start to repeat ‘ideally’ a mood of anxiety or at the very least an entire lack of enthusiasm for the responsibility, but still put an image or two in there that illustrated the severity of the duty (e.g. image 2 matched against image 3)
Body language is subtle of course (or it looks contrived), so repetition was the only way to go, and with the set available, it was more important to avoid dissipation than introduce new versions of soldier duties. So again, it’s really a collection of body language, not actions.
Something very confirming came out of this approach that I think really bonded Michael and I quickly and they relate to the two single soldiers images you find out of place David. Without giving too much away, one of those soldiers shortly after that photo was taken actually took his own life, and the other had just showed up for his first tour and really had no clue of what he got himself into and that was the reality. I found this out after I gave my body language selection, but I can’t say I was a bit surprised, the body language is there if you’re sensitive to it, and i think we are all subconsciously sensitive to it.
But, again David, thanks for the experience and thanks for the feedback, it was really appealing for me to go through this and put my mind where my mouth is.
Also, I think this edit ‘exercise’ should not look like voodoo, it should look very deliberate, so to show the approach I’d like to share the information I gave to Michael to get us to this selection. I can only really show the initial e-mail as the fine tuning was on the phone:
******************
My general feeling is there is enough military influence in each image that each didactic military image can be stripped. My feeling is there is enough of a sentiment of camaraderie in the multi-dimensional pieces that any of the singular camaraderie images can be stripped.
I think the best message to reveal from what I’m seeing is that this is a ritual that you just need to band together and get through, not one that you’re at all ashamed of, you’re still proud of your role, but not necessary one that you enthusiastically would seek out, but you get through it not alone, but together.
Here’s my image level feed back of the Burn edit:
1.) good image, dynamic, if there was not another context setting image that had these exact elements then it would be important, but you have better, cut it
2.) A nice visual rhyme between image 1 and image 2, but image two is too literal and somewhat contrived, I’m sure it’s not, but it’s not far from a picture of a person pointing at something interesting. By the way, I’m being very efficient with my feedback, I could tell you loads of things I like about this image, but I’d still cut it.
3.) Efffffing Love It. The body language in this image is just spectacular, Stefan Rohner would give you some great printing advice to make this image better, but it’s a gem and the reason the other images, (which are still good), let this image down by comparison. Keep it.
4.) There’s something wonky about this composition. I think the shot was much lower with almost a crop right across the foreheads of the soldiers, with a bit more gravity given to the sandwich a more dynamic relationship could be forged, with a hint of what the single soldier is looking at, the eye-line dynamic wouldn’t disappoint the energy leaking out of the frame lines. Cut it.
5.) Another Gem, this image shows the awkward relationship this role has with the reality. There’s just enough of a hint of hi-lo energy here. The composition is fantastic; it’s so rare to get elevation in peopled shots like this so when you can, like this, there’s some vertical energy in a horizontal crop. Keep it.
6.) Ok Image, very didactic, doesn’t reveal anything about the human condition of the soldier and bends the focus away from the story of a soldier, it’s a good image, just not for an essay about being a soldier.
7.) Yep, this image has got nice social contrast, it doesn’t at all look contrived and the looks are very revealing. Keep it.
8.) I hated the muddled lines around the key soldiers head, I tried to get over it to find something I liked for this story; it does seem like an ‘arrested’ moment, but I still don’t think it would fit even if I did like better the arrangement of subject matter. Cut It.
9.) It’s a pretty picture and it doesn’t take away from the story, but does it pay the rent for the space it takes up in the story, as soon as you start thinking, that’s a pretty picture, the story illusion collapses. Cut It.
10.) Image 8.) hits me a bit here along with a feeling of being a bit contrived, I know it’s not, but it’s a sloppy shot and it’s not saved by the emotion. Cut it.
11.) Great image, there is loads of story in this image, The coca cola bottle makes this image, else it would be too factual, with the bottle it becomes personal. Keep it.
12.) This image needs to stay, I can’t say exactly why other than that look makes me want to meet this person, the person eating the sandwich seems adorable as well and the general graduation of in-focus to out of focus is just yummy. I think it’s good for the story; he has the look of getting through this. Keep It.
13.) Yes it’s a good image, if I was forced to make an edit I would want to use all the great images, but this one would have to be considered for use for visual pace, the look of the soldier doesn’t convince me of authenticity, it think you interrupted his thoughts and he knows he’s getting his picture taken, changes everything for me. Cut it.
14.) Love it, well framed, well, everything. Keep it.
15.) Um, it’s good for variety and it’s a pleasing image to look at, but this is the type of image where being ‘pleasing’ and being ‘relevant’ doesn’t make the story. Cut it
16.) Love it, This is where you get that sense of military, that sense of numbers, that sense of closeness, and I have no effing idea what that heck is going on here, I could look at this image for a long time, everything is great about this image, even the distance. Keep It.
17.) I don’t dislike this image, and i think it reveals some important human condition, but I wish it had a little bit more, even an un-muddled border around the back tank could have made it a little bit less one-dimensional, but I’d keep it until I saw the full edit, also, look how gripping it is to collect an image where there is no sign of the camera interrupting the moment, it’s like a totally different vibe in comparison to image 13.) Keep It.
18.) Love, it, here’s where there’s such a great sense of shared camaraderie, they could easily have been sleeping inside this frame, but not next to each other with that surrendered body language, lucky for the graphics on the wall as well to break up the comp a little and add texture. Keep it.
19.) Unconvincing and muddled, Cut It,
20.) Perfect, and I totally love that you led with this image. Everything in the frame, even the barrel becomes interesting when it’s got some nice breathing space around it, there is loads of relationships being formed and reformed, I even like the texture of tire tracks in the sand making that blank area of the frame interesting. Keep It.
21.) Clean and I even like the dynamic comp, but Unconvincing, Cut It,
22.) We’ve all seen this image a million times, which is not bad, but it needs more, like the coca-cola bottle in image 11.) Something that takes the image out of the archetype and into the personal. Cut It.
23.) The hand says it all, the limp look and the non-aggressive stance at what we are all witnessing makes the person glow the right vibe for the story. Fanstic framing, Keep It.
24.) Says nothing about being a soldier, immediately makes me a sympathise, (not a bad thing), but I just forgot about the last 23 images I just looked at and I only want to know what happened to this person who has just been reduced to lawn ornament for the local landscaping. Cut It.
25.) Yep, nice texture and it has that reaching to higher ground feel both literally and metaphorically. Keep It.
Again, this is from someone that has no idea the reality behind these images, I’m purely and member of the audience that is letting you know what images constellate a message!
From the 60 Images on Michael’s website (EDIT: I changed the number to the frames (#) to the numbers in the edit 23 image edit vs. the 60 image edit to prevent another round trip to another place)
I really like these images, they make me feel more that this is not the profession of these people and it’s got this sort of muted awkwardness of the role.
(2) – I like this for an opener in that it’s sort of say’s “well here I am” it seems very honest.
(7) – The composition is dynamic and I live the sequence of looks through the file, the jeep in the back is a nice touch
(10) – this is almost pure street photography with the echo of expression in the background picture, is really pushes that awkward feel.
(4) – again an awkward sheepish look and loads of story about the role being play.
(18) – I can’t put my finger on it, but I think the set needs this image, I’ll think about it some more, but call it instinct.
(8) – This doesn’t feel like a repeat in a bad way, it reinforces close-quarters and a sense of grouping
(5) – Again, body language and the picture in the back creates a very nice dynamic, perfect for the set in my opinion.
(13) – This image Rocks! I love the eye-language! How you left this out is crazy for me!
I think the things that influenced me with these images was the body language, more expressive looks, I felt they were far more revealing that shots that showed ‘something’ happening. I also considered all the different features (e.g. guns, tanks, things happening, etc) and they are all there without having just images of tanks and guns and things happening.
JOE…
man , i just gotta like you….is there any way we can get on Skype in the next couple of days???
we could go over everything one by one and i will re-publish as per all of your hard work on this…
#13 by the way, was the last picture i pulled out…i know why you like it…the kids eyes looking up…and i love the mood and the composition…i just wanted wanted wanted for the soldier he was looking at to be equally interesting..again , the centered soldier just is not doing ANYTHING discernible and discernible is after all what photography is about.. ..he is just there…..i could imagine just a split second before or a split second later and there would have been a MOMENT with both men, instead of just the kid with the eyes…but i do not hate this picture at all..it is close….an almost in my opinion…and i would bet anything that any editor, any curator, of any magazine, or gallery, or book would agree…but, quien sabe??? get yet another opinion from someone you respect…
now the really interesting thing is why Michael himself did not insist on the ones you put back in for original publication ..he certainly had every chance…i would have leaned towards him as have you…
strong photographers usually have strong opinions…they never let anything go that they love…
if an editor is going to change the way they feel about a story, the photographer should pull the story..especially one as potentially sensitive as this and as autobiographical as this…..i certainly would never let 30 of my pictures get published in an online magazine unless everything was just RIGHT…particularly in this case where i am so so totally open to what the photographer wants….i am a photographer first, an editor second…photographers rule in my book….
anyway, good going Joe…..i will talk to you about another story you may enjoy soonest…
cheers, david
David, Joe,
Thanks a lot to you Joe for taking the time to rethink the edit.
Thanks David for having made Joe feeling comfortable enough to “chaellenge” your editing.
I don’t have the keys to understand editing.
What have happened here has been a “BURNing” demonstration of it.
David, I feel now that I prefer the edit of Joe not because of what it adds but because what it doesn’t.
I won’t compare the two edits simply because, again, I don’t have the skills.
but:
-1- In the first edit, ALL the pictures of Palestinians were showing them blindfolded. As I said earlier, these are obviously the more dramatic/political pictures. I kept them inside partly because I wanted to be true to the situation, and not censor anything for political reasons. But the effect of showing them in isolation of other interactions, less dramatic, with civilians emphasizes the effect to a point that is apparently way beyond what I could guess. We do need the situation of ID checking to brings things to their real proportion.
-2- The cross…
Ahhh….the cross…
If I knew people would associate the cross with some esoterical message to the world…
I like the picture very much, but again, it’s position at the end have made it such a monster in the mind of some…
The soldier is going to be crucified…
NO!
He is going to immolate a martyr once again in Holy Land
YOU”R OUT OF YOUR MIND!
Again, Jews have an army and are killing innocent people…
etc. etc.
The right place for the cross is not at the end. I know that now.
David, I am not complaining. I will ever be thankful to you for presenting my work and for editting it.
You couldn’t guess that my whole point was a minor tone, low key. And I am such an ignorant on editing that I couldn’t guess that some tiny things can make a huge difference in the way of reading the images.
The last few days has been a great school for me and although some things has pissed me off beyong imagination I’ve learnt very important things.
Thanks to all those who made the effort…
MICHAEL…
this has been one of the most interesting discussions….and i will say again and again and again….the photographer rules….and i will publish this new edit as per promised , or any other edit if YOU truly want it….
i offered Joe not only this edit , but others to come for BURN …i truly think Joe will become an interesting editor….Joe is very intelligent and caring and he loves photographers and photography…however, i just would like to make a few observations and ask a couple of questions…fair???? editing is a process..sometimes a long one as here…these are your pictures Michael, so this will be a good lesson and a good time for you to stand tall, and make your decision clear on a subject that only you know..
so, i only have two questions..
Michael, why did you not say all of this in the first place???? i am not being second guessed…you are
why have you had this story, YOUR story, YOUR life, YOUR culture, YOUR pictures, in YOUR hands for three years and only NOW decide that this is what YOU want to SAY??? seems a tad improbable….
i think you may have allowed reader comments and second guessing to impair your judgment of your original thinking (hmmmm, whatever that is)…since we (me and thee) have been second guessed, i really really now recommend a third guess..by a professional editor of repute…you choose..David Griffin, Kathy Ryan, Mary Ann Golon????…i promise to line it up…fair enough???..then we will have three opinions…this is no different than the original request by Joe is it???? i mean you have gone this far , why not really really go all the way….wouldn’t YOU be just as interested in that result than what has transpired?? if not, say so…
my personal opinion is that the two of you may have intellectualized the power right out of some of your photography…reduced the power of the medium we are here for to mere representation of a thought or philosophy that has nothing to do with the actual medium of photography…pardon me, but IMO that truck checking picture is simply a rather boring picture by any standard anywhere anytime no matter how it somehow portrays your vision intellectually and politically of the roadside check..do you both actually like that picture?? truly???
of course not all Palestinians are blindfolded…
of course you need a roadside check …
i am only saying something so so simple obvious and basic and not in conflict with either you or Joe on “meaning”…
i am just saying make it an aesthetically fine picture of exactly the same roadside check..same elements exactly..no journalistic or political or intellectual difference..just a fine photograph pure and simple…
does that make any sense to either one of you???
same for the bed picture..non-photographic any way you look at it..full of meaning?? please gentlemen please…and why oh why 4 pictures out of 23 of soldiers on beds???
Michael you are in dire need of your own set of standards…
your own mind..
first you allowed my edit, then another by Joe….that is ok
but, at no time did you have your own opinion…strange given the subject matter…..editors can help you think of course,
but no editor is the “mind of the photographer”…
what in the world do you really think on your own, on an autobiographical subject not close to Joe or to me????
as i wrote to Joe earlier…i sure as hell would not allow my work to be published online, viewed by thousands, in any way other than exactly the way i wanted it…particularly in this case, where you did/do have the ultimate photographer control….
one final note…do you really want the crowd and the tank to be your lead and the juggler at the end?? you sure?? if so, let me know….that juggler is a natural lead…as i said before , also a good closer…think about it…if the juggler is your closer, then i would recommend something besides the tank and men picture as the lead….just a record shot…not a photograph…
in any case, eventually we will get this just right…for you Michael for you..not for me, not for Joe, for you….so, you can move into your next project, or return to this one, with a clear head and sense of purpose…
by the way, in the so called “real world” of magazines this would be a pretty typical viewing and editing of work…what we are doing now is exactly the way it works with most publishers…there are several “transformations” of a body of work…
are you two up for this third vision ??? if not, i will stick by my word and publish this as is, as per your request…
cheers, david
I just looked at both edits, I’m kind of on the fence with both of them.
The burn edit seems much more emotional and human, but there are a handful of pictures that I just don’;t like at all (but I’m no editor, that’s for sure).
I like the structure of Joe’s edit (even the soldiers on the bed). The bed and sleeping soldiers make the story more linear… day after day… same old shit, but it lacks the emotional depth of the burn edit.
A third edit would be great to see. I hope all agree.
I’ll stay away from the political side of the essay, because comments along those lines were clearly not welcomed by Michael.
JARED…
the photos of soldiers on the beds to which i refer, is picture #2 where the soldier is sitting on the bed looking at the camera and then the other one with Arafat poster on the wall and the soldier seeming to look at his fingernails….those are the two i do not “get”….
the reality of this essay in terms of its interest for me comes down to only one word: access…
i had never before seen Israeli reservist life….after that, in all honesty, i think there are probably many versions of choice and sequence which would work……
having been in many a discussion over a set of pictures both in contests, curated shows, and magazine and book layouts, it is always a really bad sign when there is “over discussion” of a photograph or photographs..
nobody ever quibbles at all about the truly great ones….most people, most of the time, KNOW a really great photograph when they see it…explanation not required..
cheers, david
p.s. yes, the political side of this makes “curating” a bit of a nightmare…on the other hand, it is the primary reason we are interested in the first place…i doubt we would be talking about these pictures at all if this was a story on the Kansas National Guard…
“i doubt we would be talking about these pictures at all if this was a story on the Kansas National Guard…”
David;
We probably wouldn’t be talking about the political aspects, and all the bias and agendas it brings out, but surely it should be possible to complete an excellent essay on the Kansas National Guard?
What would the reaction be to an essay on a Palestinian training camp be? I’m picking the photographer would not get such a thorough going over about his/her motives. But then again, I may be completely wrong about that too!
I know that this essay, and the access to the IDF, shows us a world many of us haven’t seen before, but strong pictures are strong pictures no matter the subject? Maybe it’s a case of what you once said “that war is easier to photograph than peace”?
I suppose it’s a bit like the difference in shooting an essay on a hard drug culture compared to one on the “average family, 2.5 kids, white picket fence etc..” In some ways the fringe culture essay will be the “easy out” solution??? You sure have to work hard on a “normal” subject?
I tried to look at this essay purely as a photographic essay, trying to forget the political side. I feel there is a little too much “sameness” about the images. But I suppose I am also unconsciously tougher on it because we have seen so much strong “war” imagery over the last 50 or so years.
But then again, I recently looked at some of Antonin Kratochvil’s images of Motley Crue and Metallica on VII’s site, and was left pretty under whelmed and a feeling of “sameness” too. Especially considering the strength of his other work.
Just musing out loud!!
Cheers everyone.
07:25am Edinburgh. at 07:30 i was a bit drowsy, now i’m feeling like i just walked out of the news room! David and Michael this heavy thrashing has got to be the way to go with any important decision making exercise, i’d have equally passionate responses and questions for you David and you Michael, but i’d be very happy ‘all’ challenges were levied.
But the point is to tease out the Author’s own convictions/message/meaning FIRST. and then test the coherence of that message NEXT. If you can’t describe what you care about before opening up the box of images then you’re going to do circles in the parking lot and nothing exhausts a group of people quicker than that sense of runnning in circles. This is why bad compromises are made, there’s a stronger appetite to end the brainstorming session than to arrive at a good edit.
Armed with that coherance you’ve essentially set your selection criteria and rather than select a list of ‘killer’ images, you are selecting important words for your sentences.
I really hope you explore a third edit Michael!!, i hope ‘More’ you tell us all about it! :-))
Sure David, let’s skype, you will become the second person for me to Skype and both because of Burn! I’ll send you an e-mail with my skype details and windows of time that should typically work.
btw, the ‘truck checking’ picture Rocks! ;-) it has four key features, the most important is the body language of the small soldier in the background and i’ll arm-wrestle anyone that say’s is boring ;-)
I think the other specific images/sequence should be re-challenged as well David, Michael and I would have answers to these, but maybe not the best answers, again there was still a method to the madness.
At the end of day Edits for me are still a bit like showing up at the black-jack table, you need to understand the rules, the dynamics, what the dealer is showing, and the propensity for bust cards, maybe even a betting strategy. You may still leave the table empty handed, but show up at the table willy-nilly and make decisions based on your hand-by-hand emotion and you will certainly leave the table empty handed, but certainly sooner. (by the way, i rock at black jack! ;-)
Pitching a selection of uncaptioned images to an audience is exactly like gaming theory, and i’m sorta glad it is!
Thanks again David an Michael, this is a great way to add some more excitement to this place.
And before you say it DAVID!, nothing in that last post is supposed to look like i’m disagreeing with you! i’m just passionately laying out my own thought process in more detail! So stand down :-))))))
MICHAEL, JOE, DAVID, ALL :))
I promise this will be succinct. I’m only writing a comment here, as i was part of the original and on-going discussion. What I am about to write is a distillation of what I wrote Michael yesterday after seeing Joe’s edit and LONG BEFORE i read David’s comment (now).
I MUCH MUCH prefer David’s edit. this has nothing to do with my loving wrestling match with joe but a simple relationship to story telling. The stories are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. The great part of this exercise is that it allows photographers and viewers to see how CRUCIAL editing is and, especially in photography, can totally change what the story is or what the reader perceives. This is EXACTLY WHY i was so vociferous about Joe’s comments about editing being critical: the MOST IMPORTANT KEY in an edit is the PHOTOGRAPHER’S NARRATIVE/STORY/IDEA/OPINION. Otherwise, the story can be manipulated to promulgate any narrative. The 2 are very very different.
Joe’s edit is basically a story of ‘war.’ It is clear that this edit is about the struggle and the job the reservists have vis-a-vis their military service and the conflict with Palestinians: capture, border checks, exhaustion, fear, confusion etc. The one element that I like about Joe’s edit is that he does bring forth more of this ‘job’ tension than the original edit. HOWEVER, i have seen these pictures a 1,000,000 times and far better. This story (the role of the IDF, including reservists, and their daily difficulties as military personnel) has been photographed countless times. Moreover, this edit does include more pictures that are not powerful great. I absolutely do not udnerstand at all the narrative sequence either. the tank picture is not, for photographic or narrative sense, a good opener and tells us only: ok, here comes another war story. I also do not understand the soldiers on the be at all. this photo might work narratively as a ‘closer’, but this then would be way too pedestrian and more importantly as a photo it isnt particularly compelling. ditto many many of the pics. I agree a border picture would be nice but i also dont feel the power in this one. Yes, the body gesture of the soldier in the background is nice as is his size, but the relationship between the truck driver and the border guard isn’t much or tense at all. i would not have selected it. I do like the Arafat picture. I dont think it’s a strong picture, but if i added it to the original edit, i’d have kept only to get that tension: to show the reservists have different political views.
David’s edit is much more interesting, narratively and visually. the pictures, on the whole are better, and the sequence is stronger. While the last photo is risky, i like it for both it’s biblical suggestions (and crosses are not just christian) and its mythology (sisyphus). The story of David’s story is much ‘newer’ and subtler: the intimate conflicts and the tedium punctuated by difficult moments and work. The pictures of the palestians also STAND OUT much more: this is maybe what makes Michael nervous now. He and i have been writing, a good dialog, for the last few days, so this is nothing new to michael. I told Michael all of this in a private email.
the most important lesson is that a photographer, like a writer, MUST know what is the story he/she wishes to tell and be able, through pictures and editing and text, tell that story. I like the story of the original edit and i think that story can be fleshed out and enhanced by bringing the CONFLICT of emotions/ideology that exists between the reservists themselves. For that is the story. This story is NOT about border crossings and war, but about the difficulty and the conflict that exists for Israelis as they come to terms with service…and the binds that that conflict and tension and tedium create.
thank you joe for taking the time to do this. i’d love to do it as well for michael, but i think what would be good for michael, if he’s up to it, is to get one of david’s editors to help. but before that happens, it SHOULD BE CLEAR in michaels mind what he wwants. We wall struggle over pictures, but a photogrpaher should not struggle over their point of view. that’s the glue in any edit…
thanks michael for doing this and thanks for joe for adding his effort.
all the best
bb
capture, border checks, exhaustion, fear, confusion etc. The one element that I like about Joe’s edit is that he does bring forth more of this ‘job’ tension than the original edit. HOWEVER, i have seen these pictures a 1,000,000 times and far better.
There’s a personal indictment and evidence of the hypocrisy of what you say Bob.
As mentioned, this was the single message we were going for, if you picked it up as the ‘one element’ that you like, well then that’s a success.
I’m sorry if you’ve seen this message a million times before Bob, that doesn’t give you the right to say something else must be messaged!
You go on and on and on about the Author’s right, but you go on and on and on about what this story should be.
Get real Bob! How the heck do you reconcile this in your own head?
Anyway as you’ve made very clear: David’s edit is much more interesting, narrative and visually. the pictures, on the whole are better, and the sequence is stronger.
But what you’ve clearly missed was that was not the same message that Michael wished to deliver, if you read the post above it’s clearly there for you to see.
I will give you this; you’re getting much more succinct with your opinions, maybe that makes them easier to see how problematic they are though!
Anyway, I’m sure Michael will work through with more rigueur his next editing exercise and he’s already paid me the ultimate compliment by asking me to work through another body of work with him. I’m clearly chuffed with this.
Let’s move on then.
and one LAST (promise) word about the edit, and EDITING in general:
The photograph of the juggling is great! In the context/narrative of the original edit it works and is such an IMPORTANT image. In the 2nd edit, it totally fails (for me). Joe’s edit is a story, as a said, about power and war and exhaustion. Part of the strength of this version is that daily difficulty and confusion/exhaustion: it is an emotional, war-torn edit. No doubt. However, in this sense the juggler photograph, PARTICULARLY COMING AT THE END, does not work. In fact, it looks/feels frivolous, superfluous after the preceeding work: it makes not contextual or narrative sense. As an opening image: YES, in fact, as an opening image it sets up (as viewers) a problem: we open with lightness and then quickly descend into the difficult job of the reservist. Yes, in that kind of placement it would work. as a concluding image, i feel ‘what the hell’…it sucks out the energy and the importance of the image. Like all those great shots and film moments from Nam about soldiers relaxing, it lends weight because of the joy and the lightness in opposition, but NOT as a concluding image.
In the end, why this is so so important, and i am happy that Joe has taken the time and effort to do this, is to show the importance NOT of the edit but of the story. The real and primary question all photographers MUST ask themself first is: what is the story? NOT: what is the edit? An edit can change, totally, narrative (Eisenstein anyone ;) ), both the success or failure of pictures but more importantly the meaning of them. again: this was eisentsein’s great contribution to cinema and didactic instruction. A photographer must first now what is the story what he/she wishes to say/report and then work with an edit.
The reason why editing is secondary is because of it’s power. There are lots of great photo editors in the world, and lots of great cinema editors and lots of great writing editors but they DO NOT make great photographic stories or films or books. They help the photographer/filmmaker/writer SHAPE the story, not Make it. As i wrote Joe originally, i love editing, even though it is a struggle. I help my wife edit. I help others edit, i’ve done photo and writing editing. In fact, this week, i’m meeting with a young photographer (student of david’s) to help him on his edit, as i’ve done in the past. The first thing i say to another photographer is this: here is what i see as the meaning, what is it you say/see/mean…and we work from there. without the Idea/Story/Narrative to guide, the story fails, because it becomes just another edit.
All these pictures could be edited in a 1,000,000 ways, and there are many variations of this story, but there is ONLY 1 STORY and that is whatever is Michael’s reflection/point of view. I see two stories here and 2 michaels…i’ve also listened to Michael in our letters/conversations off burh. I think, maybe the 2nd story might be closer to what Michael wants to show (i dont know) based on our exchange…and that is fine…but i think the other story is better and is a more important story to tell: conflict of the soul, not conflict of nations….
AGAIN: what is the story….one can always find a good editor…one does not always know how to tell a story…
all the best
bb
Joe:
again, sorry, nothing personal. i’ve spent 3 exhausting days writing letters with Michael. It’s been a pleasure and i hope a rewarding one for Michael as well.
As i said, this 2nd edit (your edit) is much closer to the Michael who has written me letters, for sure. And i stand by what i’ve said above and written him in private. The 2nd version is not a strong essay, photographically or narratively, period.
that is not about political points of view joe. I’m a 40 year old photographer and writer who knows a thing or two about story telling and editing.
Joe, again, you seem incredibly abbrassive and insecure when it comes to PROFESSIONAL disagreement. I am a WORKING photographer and writer and sorry, but I find your version much less sucessful on all the levels. And that’s ok, who cares. It is Michael’s choice. I was just offering an opinion, JUST AS I DID TO HIM IN A LETTER away from burn.
Well, this will be the last time i write you directly. Joe, if you want to be in this profession, I suggest you grow up a bit when it comes to people who ‘critique’ your ideas/work. You didnt see me get all chagged on descent on my work did you.
best of luck
good day.
bob
Bob, i’ve responded clinically to what you’ve said with loads less flavour than you might use.
I’m sorry you’ve responded this way, i’m certain there were more clinical responses you could have explored (grow up?), should i say ‘my dad can beat up your dad next’? is that not the only way to answer that?
Why do you need to make this so personal? What have i said that’s inaccurate?
Again,
“As i said, this 2nd edit (your edit) is much closer to the Michael who has written me letters, for sure. And i stand by what i’ve said above and written him in private. The 2nd version is not a strong essay, photographically or narratively, period”
this is what puzzles me, if the message is truer, but not stronger, should you go for a false message?
this is a simple question Bob, take a deep breath and don’t take this to some personal level. If you’re going to have such strong opinions you need to be able to respond to them without feeling attacked, haven’t you delivered this same advice to me?
“i’ve spent 3 exhausting days writing letters with Michael”
Bob, David woke me up to something yesterday when I used this very same word.
One man’s ‘Exhausting’ is another man’s ‘Bliss’. I didn’t find writing to Michael even a bit exhausting, entirely a effort of bliss. interesting. ;-)
The real and primary question all photographers MUST ask themself first is: what is the story? NOT: what is the edit?
maybe i should tell you that i like that you said this, so you don’t think i’m on some mission to make your life miserable Bob!
Exchanges with you Bob make me think back to Siskel and Ebert, I wonder which one you would be and which one I would be!
David, all,
I understand how weird the situation may be.
The fact is: I don’t know the editing language.
If I would try to speak it, I would probably say something I didn’t intend to.
I don’t have the experience that allows you, Joe and the others, to spot immediately relations between pictures, their order, their possible impact on people you don’t know.
David, I was very happy to let you edit the story because I don’t know how to do it.
I thought you may yield the “best edit”.
I know, that sounds silly and unprofessional.
I am no professional. I never had a lesson in editing (or photography) and I have “worked” alone for so many years now, learning a few things the hard way, completely missing important others.
You know that you would never give carte blanche to an editor about your work. I can understand that.
Please look at me like at the complete ignorant that goes to his doctor asking for an advice and receives an answer in Latin. How great is the temptation for me, which is not a doctor, to blindly trust my doctor’s decisions.
Of course it doesn’t work like that.
I’d love to be able to say: “That’s my edit. It is the only one that says what I want to say to the majority of people that will see it”.
I can’t
You have to add to that the fact that I know so well the situations depicted, and so little about the people seeing my pictures. It’s very hard to guess what can be the impact of a certain picture or a certain flow of images.
Beyond that, David: Suppose you have a good edit, the one you want to publish, and then you realize it puts a meaning in the story that you didn’t mean to. What would you do?
Go for a lesser edit, but a one that is closer to what you feel should be said, or stick with your truth?
Personally, it seems logical to me that editing is a compromise between the images quality and the story they tell. Showing an image that may not be one of the very best in order to put the story in what looks like the right direction seems legitimate to me.
But is it?
Our first edit is apparently too dramatic (for my taste and the atmosphere I want to bring).
It also includes pictures that I don’t think are very good pictures, but could be an interesting, maybe necessary addition to the story (the two “religious” ones are classic clichés in the Jewish world, and make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but I can understand they are needed and even interesting for someone else.)
On the other hand, the first edit includes things like smiles that I feel the new edit lack.
There has been a strong reaction to some of the pictures, and this made me reevaluate this edit (ours). Joe edited the work, just like with you, I asked for some corrections. I felt the result avoids some of the problems I saw in the first one. Avoiding problems is not enough, and it seems the new edit has some flaws too (I even didn’t spot four men on beds).
David, your proposition of asking another editor to go through the images is very generous, but I fear I wouldn’t be able to appreciate the result.
(of course it’s just fine if you really want to do it)
I would like to propose the following:
Could we, Joe, David and me go through the edit together. I have the feeling now that this could allow me to better understand the choices that are offered to me and help me make my mind.
Finally, the question of the access and “sex-appeal” vs the intrinsic value of the works is bugging me for a long time now. Access is a bless and it is a curse.
I have done a few other things than the IDF reservists story, but only this one is published again and again…
See my point?
That is why I have asked all of you David, Joe, Bob to go and have a look to my other stories, specially the last one on the Jerusalem Hospital.
Joe, Bob, I need both of you to stay around and help me by proposing me alternate views.
One passionate side is just not enough.
(geee, Panos and I are exorcising our demons on much more complex and loaded issues than the essay edit of an obscure middle-eastern photog wannabe :-))
Cheers!
Michael
Don’t worry Michael, Bob’s not going anywhere, except maybe to bed, he’ll be back soon with more words, opinions, and well, just more ;-)
“…(geee, Panos and I are exorcising our demons on much more complex and loaded issues than the essay edit…
yep, Michael… we did…at least tried to exorcise…
and thank u for the opportunity…
( now, regarding the edit part?… all i can think of is that there are one trillion ways to view pictures…)
peace & hugs…
( off for an apartment research now… and then another “family shoot” weekend up in the San Gabriel valley for the weekend… Great news for All: i wont be writing… great news for Me: I will be reading…)
Sorry for the triple post….
Ross
ROSS…
of course, one could do a great essay on the Kansas National Guard…i was only saying that this PARTICULAR SET OF PICTURES is being talked about ONLY because of the ACCESS Michael had…
JOE…
thrashing?? we are just talking about pictures for heavens sake…we are just giving opinions…this is a forum for doing just that….if we disagree about a set or a particular photograph, i would not characterize it as a “thrashing”….
you have never heard me say one word ever about my professional experience as being any more valid than your opinions….have i Joe?? and i never will….you do however, seem to do the opposite…it seems you resent the professional opinions (and Michael does want to work in this business)…
let me say again what i have said to you before….i can clearly see that you look very carefully at photographs…you have spent lots of time with Michael talking about his motives, feelings etc and it is also very clear that you really have THOUGHT a lot about this essay…you may analyze photographs and sequence in a way that i do not, but i think this fair enough (see my comment under the David Gimenez post)…
one of the reasons i WANT YOU HERE as a sometime editor is because you do look at photographs in a way that i do not…do you think i do not welcome this??? i would like nothing more than a collaborative effort here where we have a Joe and a Bob and a Jim and a Patricia etc all adding something different in point of view…believe me Joe, i read every word you write….i am listening…sometimes i do have a very difficult time following your reasoning process, but i never never discount it and i always always have a great deal of respect for you in that you take the time and make the effort to put your thoughts down on “paper”….i just sometimes do exactly what you do and come up with a counter point or my own reasoning which i assume you also respect….
yes, laughing…i think we will just have to agree to disagree on that roadcheck picture..that picture rocks?? oh Joe Joe Joe…..actually, i am a pretty good arm wrestler…i guess we will find out at a London pub…
of course, i DO like the guy in the background..but, unfortunately that is the ONLY thing i like…NOTHING is happening in the foreground of a VISUAL nature…
yes, if you DESCRIBE the picture it is GREAT…….if you LOOK at the picture, it is BORING…..
first round on me bro….
cheers, david
MICHAEL…
i have every intention of working with you in the very near future….you are a very fine young man and i just want you to take your potential as far as you can take it….i will be back in New York over the weekend…so, let’s talk by phone early next week…..
peace, david
David, I think i will finally say this, and i’m grinning ear to ear, Web Chat Sucks!
words as exciting and as positive to me like ‘thrashing’ (a key word we use in my profession, and always in a good way) just gets lost.
All of my passion simply seems combative at times, oh well, i’ll take that on the chin :-) Maybe i should have said that the experience was ‘exhilarating’, as that’s what i feel like after we come out of our war room here at my bank, when you’ve fully explored something and understand it better and can move on.
Luckily we are not only as good as the last words we have written and David you are big enough to take me on the ‘average’ of what you hear from me. I’m always thankful for that, i have strong opinions, but know full well there are big differences between them and fact, but exploring them means you need to be a bit bold.
For once i get to say this back to you David. I don’t disagree with a word you wrote! Except you seem to deliver them to me in a way that there is something to disagree about! Ahhhh, now i see how you feel all the time with me ;-)
And yes round one two you.. um best two out of three??? kidding ;-)
Best wishes and talk to you soon,
Joe
Let the Palestinians LIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Javier; great website, good storytelling! Surely you must have more the say than “Let the Palestinians LIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!”? Michael will eat you alive if that is all you have to say.
Best,
Mike.