Girl_In_Tree-1

is there anything better than a childhood dream?  9 year old Gracie Johnson dreams of becoming a photographer….she lives now in the Virginia town where i also dreamed of being a photographer at about the same age…Gracie and her family are part of my American family series Off For A Family Drive…Gracies’ father,  U.S.Navy Capt. Andrew Johnson was the Director of Medical Operations on the first wave of Haitian relief after the earthquake serving on the military’s largest hospital ship Comfort…

symbiotic stuff….

so here at Burn we are creating Circus Magazine  for photographers 18 and under…young Gracie will of course be a candidate photographer…. with less than 6  degrees of separation, we are also working in the kindred spirit of her physician father Capt. Johnson and will be using the fee many of you contributed as part of the EPF  grant award for Burn  to send approximately $6,000. to Doctors Without Borders specifically to be used for Haitian relief efforts….

this year the Emerging Photographer Fund grant will be given to one of 25 finalists…more than double the number of finalists as last year…this will be a very tough call for the jury that i will name next week….while i am very proud that the tenor of Burn has made it so that generous donors have made it possible to give out a $15,000. grant for 2010 for the completion of one photographer’s project, i still want to be on the leading edge of a wave that will help as many of the talented unknown as possible…

after allotting first for Haitian relief, then paying our fee to Slideroom for making the whole entry and judging process easy, Burn is left with a small profit from your entry fees…we had approximately 1000 entries…..so what to do with the profit?

Anton and i figured we had three choices: Do we?

(a) take a vacation in the Bahamas

(b) throw a helluva party in my loft in New York

(c) give the money back to the readers of Burn

those who know me, know the answer….and Anton is of like mind…yup (c), we are giving the money back to you….

starting on July 1, 2010 Burn Magazine will start paying for every essay and single published online in our magazine….

we will have to start with a token payment of $500. per essay for one time use rights on work that comes to us through submissions…more for a first time exclusive….we are confident this number will rise significantly as we seek outside support….now we are doing this with your money….a big circle….the right thing to do in this nebulous time in the world of publishing…

Burn will not last forever…Burn will always be small….we only care about one thing at Burn and it matches the way i feel about everything i do…i just want Burn to set high standards and live by example…and in this case hopefully stimulate the “big guys” to follow suit…the large media companies , even with advertising for support , are thinking of every way possible to keep from paying photographers for online content, and we at Burn are thinking of every way possible  to make sure the young photojournalists and artists of our time are compensated for their work….so, this is our brick in the wall…and oh yes, i am still working on assignments for Burn readers and icons as well…be patient, this is part of it…this is how it will happen….

photography has never been a professional choice either craft or art where people were expecting to become wealthy…photographers work from their deepest passions, either artistic or journalistic…yet, compensation so that they may continue their passion and yet feed their families seems to me to be fair enough….

i want to take this time to thank Andrew and Melissa Johnson and their beautiful children Critt, Cole, and sweet Gracie for allowing me into their lives….yes, i have made a few pictures with medium format film for my personal project, but what will be even better is if Burn gives Gracie a good digital camera so that she will have the opportunity to photograph her family from the real inside….soon to be published on Circus….

done…..

…dah….

2,273 thoughts on “of trees and dreams…”

  2. Jamie Maxtone-Graham

    No question; the single best photography website in the world today……Thank you David, Anton, et al.

  5. cathy scholl

    Wow you guys…what can I say?

    Great…nice…how generous…inspirational…exciting.
    Better than anything I could have imagined, which seems to be the norm here at burn.

    You really know how to do it right.

    Congratulations and thanks.

  7. Pingback: APhotoADay Blog » Blog Archive » Of Trees and Dreams

  9. Sean Gallagher

    Dear David,

    This is another inspiring development here on Burn. In an editorial market which is becoming tougher by the day, you go against the general trend. I am proud to be part of this community here on Burn which has evolved from Road Trips…does anyone remember that? ;)

    As a past recipient of the EPF, I can vouch first hand what a difference it makes. Not just in a monetary sense, but in the sense of confidence, inspiration and belief it has instilled in me and my work. To think that this will now help inspire young photographers, well, that’s a great thing you are doing. Really.

    Good luck David. Look forward to seeing Circus Magazine go live.

    Best,
    Sean

  10. panos skoulidas

    i just want Burn to be good and to set a good example…and in this case hopefully stimulate the “big guys” to follow suit…the large media companies , even with advertising for support , are thinking of every way possible to keep from paying photographers, and we at Burn are thinking of every way possible to make sure the young photojournalists and artists of our time are compensated for their work….so, this is our brick in the wall…
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    no advertising for support?????
    i have an Evil idea…why doesnt burn do what the NYT did with the Lens blog? Get advertising…put the money in your pocket…go to bahamas and do some silly, pathetic bullshit ala “Moments in time” and make every photographer in this world contribute sending you their photos for free? Of course all you have to do is send the photogs back something like a big smile? Tell the photogs that the copyright is still theirs and let them sell the photos (like they can anyways but even if they do, who cares?)..Anytime you want to repost the photo do it without asking them , just send them another big smile back…
    This way you will create a huge database for free…see???? great idea or what???
    just a thought…
    (ok..ok..i admit it..i just stole this Amazing idea from the New York Times…the Lens blog…just a thought)

  11. Matthew Newton

    David, I got to option (b) and had a panic attack….
    How could I possibly get to NYC in time for the party!.

    So I’m glad you guys went with option (c)
    It makes my life a lot easier and it really is a fantastic thing to do. It Really is.

    I’m looking forward to seeing what those kids get up to in the BigTop.

  13. panos skoulidas

    Now worst case scenario is if Burn eventually runs out of money and dies…
    well..so be it..
    its better to Burn out than to fade away (SELL out)…
    that wouldnt mean that Burn failed…
    No no no…Burn is the last Resistance to the “big guys” who are scheming every possible trick to NOT pay…
    You see they figured the mentality of the Artist…Artists give their soul for free..anything to be on a blog, anything to hang on a wall…be in a book etc..The “big guys” know that…Flickr created this way…big huge low cost,dirt cheap Database so getty can buy 10 photos on the dollar…now NYT with “moments in time”…good intentions, ha ha ha, ho ho ho…one love, save the planet, volunteer here , volunteer there…
    (but they never forget to slap you with the latest canonikon add on the side)..
    Stay healthy Burn…we know “they” wont follow..and guess what: we dont care…
    big hug

  15. Frostfrog

    “photography has never been a professional choice either craft or art where people were expecting to become wealthy…photographers work from passion…yet, compensation so that they may continue their passion and yet feed their families seems to me to be fair enough….”

    Right on! Even now, not a week goes by without someone contacting me with a request that they be allowed to use my photos for free, or at a token price. I get so tired of it.

    I feel a little badly, because I had said that I would enter the EPF grant competition so that I could contribute to your effort. But in the end I did not enter because it just did not feel quite right. I will still find a way to contribute to Burn. I have been full-time freelance now for 25 years and have had many economic ups and downs, but the last few months have been very, very, down and I cannot contribute to anything at the moment – not even Special Olympics.

    The summer, however, is looking up and I think I will be able before long.

    Also, on interesting and related note, several of my blog readers had been urging me to put up a “donate” button of my own so that they could contribute to it. I had been very reluctant to do so, as it felt kind of like begging and also I have yet to find the time and resource to turn the blog into the kind of online publication that I plan to make of it, but finally I went ahead and put that button up.

    Over the past two weeks, I have received about $800 in donations. It won’t continue at that rate, of course, but it does tell me that people are willing to pay for my content online and it gives me hope that I can yet do this thing. All I need to do is to increase my readership of similar people by about 100 times and I am in business.

    Of everything that I see out there, it is Burn that is my biggest inspiration.

    That means David, Anton and the rest – it is you who are my inspiration.

    Thank you, and I will be follower of Circus.

    May Burn not burn out, but be around for at least 100 times longer than you anticipate.

  18. ginamartin

    DAH & ANTON – you two are both amazing! looking for to seeing you both at LOOKbetween and finding out the grant winner. hugs to you both!

  21. Herve

    Why not keep or send the money for/to (an)other humanitarian crisis, especially those that do not have much coverage in the medias, like the plight of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh. This would also be fitting the intent of many essays on BURN, that introduce to us people and minorities hardly talked about in mainstream medias?

    Just on the Rohingya:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8556916.stm

  22. Ross Nolly

    David; I’ve never submitted an essay to Burn, but if I had one published here I think I would prefer to donate the $500 to Circus Mag… the circle would turn twice. Just a thought… Anyway; congratulations on both your and Anton’s efforts. :-)

  23. Carsten

    wow, that’s an amazing idea. congratulations & thank you david & anton, you guys just keep doing the right things. very cool.

  24. nweyland

    Wow, thank you David, Anton and all others associated with Burn for your continued support and inspiration to the photographic community. Just amazing.

  25. Justin Smith

    Just plain awesome…

    I’ve been wondering all day what DAH would present – this post totally surpassed anything I came up with on my own.

    Thank you David & Anton!

  26. mikeberube

    David Anton… Amazing. If you really make this work and stick, it could change the way we finance photographers in the digital age now. Amazing. I really hope this works. Very excited about this!! Great stuff.

  28. Pingback: of trees and dreams… | burn magazine | The Click

  29. Athena

    Very Good. Excellent, in fact. And still glad to be part of it.
    Thumbs up Anton and David!

  31. tanguy

    Awesome, really! Waw…
    DAH, it’s pretty amazing what you did since Road Trips (yes Sean ;)!
    David, & gang, you rock! In this day-and-age, going against the grain in such a positive way is quite visionary… No kidding, we’ll have pretty cool dreams tonight -and ideas for the days ahead!
    All the best, T.

  33. a civilian-mass audience

    DEAREST MR.HARVEY ALAN DAVID OR DAH

    “There is a MAGNET in your heart that will attract true friends. That magnet is unselfishness, thinking of others first… when YOU learn to live for others, THEY will live for you.”
    Paramahansa Yogananda

    “There is a MAGNET in your heart that attracts true friends.That MAGNET is unselfishness…
    you have learned to “live” for others(thanks MAMA,PAPA and OTHERS)…
    WE “live” for you…
    BURNIANS and CIRCUS photographers

    ohh…the trees…the dreams…oime…
    I need a true academian today…

    My fogging eyeglasses are too much to withstand…
    I will be back…

  34. eva

    It’s all Civi’s fault, it there’d be some Martini instead of Ouzo there’d be a praty.. sigh… ;)

    Looking forward to.. uhm, lots of things really.. the work of the finalists, other new essays, singles, wee big CIRCUS taking off, BURN01.. Anton’s magazine.. inspiration all over the place.. thank you!

  35. a civilian-mass audience

    THANK YOU MR.HARVEY …
    THANK YOU MR.HARVEY’S FAMILY …
    THANK YOU MR.HARVEY’S FRIENDS
    THANK YOU MR.HARVEY’S ENEMIES
    THANK YOU MR.HARVEY’S SUPPORTERS
    THANK YOU ANTON and your family…
    THANKS to ALL the amazing team that is NEXT to DAH…who except all the other stuff, they have to keep MR.HARVEY awake at the airport gates…
    THANK YOU DONORS,SUPPORTERS,SPONSORS…

    * Afrikaans (Africa) – Dankie
    * Albanian – Faleminderit
    * Arabic – Sukran
    * Arabic – Shukran Gazillan (Thank you very much)
    * Armenian – shur-nur-ah-gah-lem
    * Australian – Thoinks, Moite!
    * Basque Country (between France and Spain) – Eskerrik asko (Thank you very much)
    * Bengali – Dhannyabad
    * Bulgarian – Blagodaria
    * Bosnia – Hvala
    * Burma(Myanmar) – Jae Zu Din Pa De (Thank you)
    * Cameroon (Duala) – Na som (thanks)
    * Cameroon (Duala) – Na som djita (Thank you very much)
    * Cantonese – M’goy (sp? — thank you for the service)
    * Cantonese – Do jey (sp? — thank you for the gift)
    * Catalonia (catalan) – gràcies [grah’-si-es] estandard
    * Catalonia (catalan) – moltes gràcies [many thanks]
    * Catalonia (catalan) – merci [mer’-si] very colloquial
    * Cherokee Nation – Wado (Thank you)
    * Cherokee (Eastern) – Skee (Thank you)
    * Chinese (Mandarin) – Xie_Xie (shieh shieh)
    * Chinese (Cantonese) Mh goi (m-ghoh-ee) (informal: thanks)
    * Chinese (Cantonese) Do jeh (tou yeh) (formal: thanks)
    * Cook Islander – Kia Manuia
    * Croatia – Hvala
    * Czech – Dekuji (deh’-ku-yih)
    * Danish – tak (tahg)
    * Dutch – dank U wel (dahnk you well) (formal: thank you very much)
    * Dutch – bedankt / dank je wel (dahnk ye well) (informal: thanks) – WEL is ‘good’, like “I wish you well”
    * Dutch – Dank U zeer / duizend maal dank (thank you VERY much) – a superlative and used when you get stuck in a thunderstorm, then lost, mugged, robbed, etc. And someone helps you. Only then. ZEER is ‘very’. JE and U are ‘you’, but informal and formal. (still alive in old english like in ‘ye olde’). “Duizend maal” means a ‘thousand times’.
    * Dutch – hartelijk dank (thanks from the heart) Another formal form used in contexts like: “thanks for coming/inviting” (to a wedding, birthday party) or when receiving a formal present.
    * English – Thanks awfully, old boy
    * Esperanto – Dankon (thank you)
    * Esperanto – Dankegon (thank you very much)
    Estonia – Aitäh
    * Ewe Togo (Africa) – Akpé (Appé)
    * Ewe Togo (Africa) – Apké na wo (Thanks to you)
    * Fijian – Vinaka
    * Fijiab – Vinaka vaka levu (Thank you very much)
    * Finnish – kiitos (kee’-toas)
    * Fon Benin (Africa) – Kpè nu wé
    * French – merci (mehr-see’)
    * French – Merci Madame – Thanks (to a woman)
    * French – Merci Mademoiselle – Thanks (to a young girl)
    * French – Merci Monsieur – Thanks (to a man)
    * F.Y.R.O.M. (Macedonia) – Hvala
    * Gambia (Mandinka) – Abarka
    * Georgia(Sakartvelo) – madlobt (thank you)
    * Georgia(Sakartvelo) – didi madloba (thank you very much)
    * German – Danke (dahn’-kuh)
    * German – Danke schoen (literally: nicely thank you, outdated)
    * German – Danke sehr (Thank you very much)
    * German -Vielen Dank (Many Thanks)
    * Greek – Efharisto (ef-har-ris-tou’)
    * Greek – Efkaristo poly
    * Guarani – Aguije (ah-we-JAY) native indian language of Paraguay and Western Brazil
    * Guinea (Mandinka) – Abarka
    * Gujarathi (India) – Aabar
    * Hawaiian – Mahalo
    * Hebrew – Toda (toh-dah’)
    * Hebrew – Toda raba (thank you very much)
    * Hindi (India National Language) – Dhanyavaad
    * Hindi – Shukriyaa
    * Hungarian – Köszönöm (kuh’-suh-nuhm)
    * Icelandic – Þakka þér fyrir
    * Icelandic – Takk (informal)
    * Indonesian – Terima kasih (teh-ri-mah kah-sih)
    * Indonesian – Terima Kasih Banjak/Banyak (Both pronounced bunyuk – Thank you very much)
    * Iran (Persia) – Moteshakeram (formal)
    * Iran (Persia) – Merci (informal – just like french but r in this word is pronounced as /r/ )
    * Irish – Go raibh maith agat ( Thank you “Go – Rev – Mah – Agut”) (literally, may you have good things)
    * Irish – Go raibh mile maith agat ( Thank you very much “Go – Rev – Meela – Mah – Agut”) (literally, may you have a thousand good things)
    * Irish (Northern) – Nice one bro’r, or Cheers mucker!
    * Italian – Grazie (grahts’-yeh)
    * Italian – Grazie tanto (many thanks – cordial version)
    * Italian – Mille Grazie (a thousand thanks)
    * Japanese – Arigato (ah-ree-gah’-toh) or A_Ree_Ga_Tou_Go_Zai_Ma_Su
    * Japanese – Domo arrigato
    * Javanese – Matur nuwun
    * Jive – Thanks mon – Appropriate only if directed to a male
    * Kannada (India) – Dhan-ya-vaadaa (spoken in S India, in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of India.)
    * Konkani (West coast – Konkan coast of India – It also is the state official language of Goa) – Dev boren koru (thank you – literally means ” May God do good to you” as that is the way we thank people. )
    * Korean – Kamsa hamaida (kam’-sah hum-nee-dah’ )
    * Latvian – Paldies
    * Lithuanian – Achu
    * Luganda (Uganda) – Waybale (Thank you)
    * Luganda (Uganda) – Waybale Nyo (Thank you very much)
    * Malayalam (South Indian Language) – Nandi
    * Malayalam (India) – Nani
    * Malaysian – Terima Kasih (“Tay ree ma Kaa seh”)
    * Mali (Mandinka) – Abarka
    * Mandinka – Abarka (language of West Africa; The Gambia, Senegal, Guinea and Mali)
    * Maori – Kia Manuia
    * Nepali — (Nepal National Language) – Dhan-ya-vaad
    * New Zealand – Cheers – LOL
    * New Zealand – Kiaora Koe (NZ Maori)
    * New Zealand – Kiaora Korua (NZ Maori)
    * New Zealand – Kiaora Koto (NZ Maori)
    * New Zealand – Kiaora Tatou (NZ Maori)
    *

    Nigeria (Hausa) – Na gode
    * Norwegian – Takk (tahkk)
    * Oman – Shakkran
    * Palauan – soolong (Republic of Palau)
    * Paraguay (Guarani) – Aguije (ah-we-JAY)
    * Persian/Farsi – Mam’noon or Mo’teshake’ram (Spoken in Iran, Afghanistan and other Central Asian countries)
    * Philippines Tagalog – Salamat
    * Philippines – Maraming Salamat (thank you very much)
    * Polish – Dziekuje (dsyehn-koo-yeh)
    * Portuguese – Obrigada (Female)
    * Portuguese – Obrigado (Male) (oh-bree-gah’-doh)
    * Portuguese – Muito Obrigado (Thank you very much)
    * Portuguese – Muito Obrigado com Voce (have my personal thanks)
    * Punjabi [ Pakistan and India] – Bhala Hove
    * Qatar – Shakkran
    * Romanian – Multumesc (phonetic: mooltzoomeask)
    * Romanian – Va multumim frumos (great thanks)
    * Russian – Spasiba (spah-see’-boh)
    * Russian – Blagodaryu (a little official)
    * Russian – Premnogo blagodaren (my greater thanks – words said to bosses by workers)
    * Russian – Spasibo balshoye (big thanks)
    * Samoan – Fa’afetai (fah-ah-feh-ta-e – thank you)
    * Samoan – Fa’afetai tele lava (Thank you very much)
    * Samoan – Talofa
    * Saulteaux Indians (Manitoba, Canada) – Miigwech (meegweech) — there are similar spellings in other native languages such as Cree, etc.
    * Scottish – Cheers
    * Scot’s Gaelic (Informal) – Tapadh Leat (tah-puh let)
    * Scot’s Gaelic (Formal) – Tapadh Leibh (tah-puh lave)
    * Scot’s Gaelic (Many Thanks) – Moran Taing
    * Senegal (Mandinka) – Abarka
    * Serbo – Croat -Hvala
    * Slovakia – Dakujem (deh’-ku-yem)
    * South Africa – Dankie (“Dung-Key”)
    * South Africa – Baie Dankie (thanks very much – “Buyer Dung-Key”)
    * Spanish – Gracias (grah’-syas)
    * Spanish – Gracias a todos (Thank you all)
    * Spanish – Muchas gracias (thank you very much, literally: many thanks) While Dutch people scarcely use the superlative forms, the Spanish don’t use the minimalistic forms much (mostly in informal context). In Spanish, when a flyer is shoved into your hands, its worth a ‘gracias’, you normally use ‘muchas gracias’.
    * Spanish – Muchisimas gracias (thank you VERY much) – to someone who was useful to you.
    * Spanish – un millón de gracias (a million thanks) – for when someone saves your life.
    * Spanish (Latin America, informal) – Te pasastes. (informal)
    * Spanish (Latin America, informal) – Se pasó. (formal) Which means “You went over the line”, or “thanks for going out of your way to help me”. When used, it will get you a smile, guaranteed.
    * Sundanese – Nuhun
    * Sunda – Hatur Nuhun
    * Swahili – Ahsante (ah-sahn’-teh)
    * Swahili – Ahsante Sana (Thank you very much)
    * Swedish – Tack (tahkk)
    * Swedish – Tack så mycket
    * Tahitian – Maururu
    * Tamil (India) – Nandri (“Nun-dry” spoken in South India, Singapore, Malaysia)
    * Teenager –
    * Telungu (South Indian Language)- Manjuthe
    * Thai – Khob Khun Kha (Feminine)
    * Thai – Khob Khun Krab (Masculine)
    * Thai – Khop Khun Mak (Thank you very much)
    * Thai – Khop Khun Mak Kha (Feminine)
    * Thai – Khob Khun Mak Krab (Masculine)
    * Thai – Khob Pra Khun Kha (Formal feminine)
    * Thai – Khob Pra Khun Krab (Formal masculine)
    * Tibetan – Thuk Ji Chhe
    * Turkish – Tesekkurler ( teh-sheh-keur eh-deh-rim)
    * Turkish – Çok tesekkur ederim (big thanks)
    * Turkish – Saðol (thank you)
    * Turkish – Saðolun (thank you – “saol”)
    * Turkish – Tesekkurler (thanks – “teshekkyurler”)
    * U.S. & Canada – Thank You
    * United States (South) – Thanks y’all
    * Ukranian – Dyakuyu
    * Urudu (India) – Shukria
    * Urudu (India) – Bahut Bahut Shukriyaa
    * Urdu [Pakistan, India and Bangla Desh] – Maherbani
    * Urdu (Pakistan) – Shukria
    * Urdu (Pakistan) -Bahut Shukria ( Thank you very much)
    * Urdu (Pakistan) – Bahut Bahut Shukria ( Thank you very very much)
    * Uzbekistan (Uzbek) – Rahmat (Thanks)
    * Uzbekistan (Uzbek) – Katta Rahmat (Thanks a lot)
    * Vietnamese – Kam ouen
    * Wales/Cymru – Diloch yn fawr (thank you very much)
    * Wales/Cymru – Diolch (thanks)
    * Xhosa (Africa) – Nkosi
    * Yemen – Shakkran
    * Yiddish – A dank
    * Yiddish – Yasher Koach (KOY-ACH)
    * Yoruba – Modupe
    * Yugoslavia – Hvala
    * Zulu – Ngiyabonga

    THANK YOU UNIVERSE… (i just copied and pasted ):)))

  36. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…VIVA ITALY…VIVA AMERICA and NORTH POLE…and SOUTH…and ASIA…and AUSTRALIA…AFRICA…EUROPA
    and ouzo and tequila…and where is JIMMY and KATIIIEEEEEEEE and OURPATRICIA…

    Formula one…I am running…
    LOVE YOU ALLL…no kidding

  37. sam harris

    David & Anton,

    although Civi has just said it all (how can anyone follow that! – Civi we love you :)))
    i’ll say it anyway…

    they say, there is a time and place for everything…
    I think this is the time and place to say thank you.

    Thank you for burn and your never ending supply of energy and inspiriation, thank you for your positivity …

    This is brilliant news, not just for burn but for photography in general, setting an excellent example and leading the way…

    VIVA BURN!

  38. benroberts

    RESPECT.

    truly, i am stunned.

    never thought i would see the day when a website paid proper money for a photographic essay.

    Guardian, Telegraph, Independent, Times, BBC – take note.

  39. audreybardou

    Hi All,

    It is a very beautiful news in this uncertain time… Photographers support the magazines of photography (paper and online), but who support the photographers? I had few publications in photos magazines ( paper, not a lot, I don’t want to generalize…) but just one pay me…. the photographers cannot live love and fresh water…

    Thank you so much David and Anton to support the photographers, and please do not forget yourselves!

    I am really impatient to see the work of the young people…. Haik, are you behind circus ? :))))

    Best, audrey

  40. vicky slater

    Wow, actually made me choke up a little.
    I think you’ve probably made alot of people feel very very good.
    It seems rare that we get an acknowledgement/recognition of our work in the same way that other people do.
    Sincere thanks for doing this.
    xx

  43. Thodoris Tzalavras

    I admire people who mean what they say, and are trying their best to walk the walk. I take my proverbial hat off to you sir.

    Also, would it be possible to set a date during which any money send to you through the donate button on Burn would be added to the sum you’ll be sending to the Doctors Without Borders?

  45. jenny lynn walker

    DAH/ANTON: A million thanks for all you do for emerging photographers. You ARE amazing! Now ‘Circus Magazine’ and other developments! It’s wonderful to hear that Burn received 1,000 entries for the EPF grant and that 6K will be going to Doctors Without Borders. That is great. Exciting developments every single day.

    ANTON: Are there ways to access your mag and/or book other than signing up for membership at Lulu for anyone not too keen on doing that? Or can those signed up to Lulu tell us more about what membership brings you.

    ALL: Such beautiful comments on this thread. Civi: : ) xx

  46. david bowen

    yes yes – onward..
    good steps indeed and really refreshing..
    there is a hope that neither you david, nor anton, are going to struggle in any way by not pocketing some of the cash to cover your burn expensis.. which there are probably a great deal of..

    in any case – a great idea.. extremely well intended.. brings and idea..

    if the EPF is going to be difficult to single down to one person, why not narrow it down to include 5 or 10 ‘highly commended’ as well.. their reward can be 500 bucks and to be the first 5 or 10 essays featured which gain the award of payment?

    circus is a great idea as well.. something truely inspiring for younger people to get their teeth into..

    good stuff..
    good good.
    d

  47. paultreacy.com

    David and Anton

    If I believed in Heaven, then I’d be delighted in the knowledge that your place in it would be secure.

    But I don’t.

    I do, however, believe in Burn.

    You’re amazing. The pair of you.

  48. aitken

    Nice one…..

    Dah and Anton, your dedication and service to others is really astounding. Good for you guys. Hopefully other web publications will follow with this model.

    I know I know your dedication is to the medium but at some stage you guys deserve some reward for the monumental time you have put into this.

    Cheers

    ian

  51. pomara

    Things were starting to get a little stale
    around here. It’s about time you and Anton
    started doing something….(laughing!!! Very Out Loud!)

  57. Kyunghee Lee

    This is a monument in the history of photography.
    It shows his love and passions to photography and photographers.
    He is the greatest photographer and mentor.

    We all love and respect him.
    He is David Alan Harvey!

    Viva! DAH, Anton and Burn!!!

  58. bob black

    fuck!…i just wrote a long long comment and my school computer crashed….:((((((…

    ok, let me try again….

  59. Latrenia

    I think I was about her age when I knew I wanted to be a photographer. Two thumbs up to Burn!

  61. anne henning

    Oh David. and Anton. Respect. Validation. Passion. Professionalism. Generousity. Warmth.
    work ethic of the highest level. Mentor with dedication like no one else. what an incredible person you are David to present this gift to dreamers, all ages, all dreams. And, anton, right there as well.
    it’s more than a gift of dollars. i work with some teens; the fragility of their souls is to be cared for and fed. you guys are doing that. to even think of this is just amazing. with such sweet smiles too.

  63. Jordan Weitzman

    David – Big congratulations to you and Anton….what great news!!!

    compensating photographers here will help so many to pursue their work, but more importantly for me is the inspiration you continue to give….reading your posts and comments makes me feel so charged up, energized and excited to work, to shoot and to live to the fullest! what a lease on life you have my friend. i love it!

    best to you,

    jordan

    ps. will you be in nyc this weekend for any photo festival festivities?

  64. bob black

    Ok, let me try and type this mother fucker again….:))))

    “Be an opener of doors for such as come after thee.”–emerson

    “The wise man does not lay up his own treasures. The more he gives to others, the more he has for his own”-Lao Tzu

    ok, so let me start first with the profane! ;))

    YOU ARE TWO BEAUTIFUL MOTHER FUCKERS! :))))

    no, check that, we ARE ALL beautiful mother fuckers because Burn is you, you all out there in the dark, reading and scribbling and making pictures and donating your time and money and energy and love and life to this place. It is true that Burn is you, each and everyone of you, the phtoographers published and unpublished, the commentators, the lurkers, the readers, the winers, the celebrators, the civilians (OUR CIVILIAN), it’ all of you that made this happen and that has been David’s message from Day one, 4 years ago on Road Trips….

    but…

    David you are the person that has made this happen…and Anton, you are the soul-feeding, ass-busting, globe=trotting sensei that has made david’s heart, dreams and generosity take shape and soar so as to allow each us to follow in those enormous foot prints he is leaving (and yes people, david harvey does have enormous feet, i have no fucking idea why i know that, but well, he does ;)))….You two have been through so much shit and so much sleepless, jet-lagged, celebratory, people-bitching, negativity and positivity that you’all really deserve some kind of fucking beatification….but as we’ve all know all along this is about phtoographers helping photographers, not asking for anything in return but making the difference….

    David, i wrote long ago, as you know, that when PJG died, the world lost a giver and a touchstone and you have stood up and taken upon your pretty broad shoulders the legacy that PJG left, not only for photography, but more importantly for belief in vision and in making a difference, a real difference to the lives of photographers and their families…PJG believed, unconditionally, that we have a moral obligation to help and to believe and to enjoy life…and you are that standard and shit…i remember:

    i remember the day when Bruno Stevens first told me about Road Trips (that was after week 2 of your starting your blog) and i remember thinking: damn, this cat is fun, cool and totally down-to-earth…i loved reading your posts (hilarious, philosophic, corn-piped written, beautiful, inpired, rants) and at that time like only 4 or 5 comments were being made…i remember Marcin was i think the first, or Marinc and Rafal and then i remember Cathy and i think Eric…and of course your students…i waited almost 4 months to write anything, as i was convinced it was only for your students…and later, i remember when the entire for the Road Trip project came up, the ringu, and everyone was excited and even then there were negative people and non-believers…and that lead eventually to EPF and shit…how much has happened since those days…5,000 comments on a post, you gotta be kidding me…think of this…i know of at least 5 books that have been published since that time and i know of 5 more that are ready or nearing publication…all the great work that has been published here at Burn…all the essays that have been generated by contributors here, think of the essay published here and elsewhere…all the work that has been published/exhibited/sold/created…all the SLPS that have come RIGHT FROM HERE…all the great efforts: the workshops in Austin, the Austin Centre of PHotogrpahy, the mentoring here in toronto, the exhibitions in canada, n.america, asia, europe…ALL OF THIS CAME DIRECTLY and through the inspiration and work of this….

    and god damn, has it bloomed…from Sean’s and Alejandro’s great work and awards, and how the 2 of them have continued to make sustained work and gone off into great directions and publications…all the photographers here who’ve been published in the Times (andrew, chris, lance) and Walrus and motherjones (erica) and visura and shit, i cant count all the magazines…and it continues to grow so that essayist here will be earning money from burn…

    but for me that is not even the point, and that is not the greatness of your revolution and endeavors…this is an example of the new paradigmn…not about webpublishing, but about PHOTOGRAPHERS HELPING PHOTOGRAPHERS AND MAKING A DIFFERENCE….no handouts, but work work work….that photographers, have you have written from day one, MUST take their own life and their own work into their hands and THEY MUST BE THE DIFFERENCE….

    and you and anton are paradigms of that…..

    your generosity, both of you, has been an extrarodinary affirming life…and in truth, i count this place as more than photogrpahy, but a home…all the REAL LIFE friends that have come from this, not mentioning the virtual ones…shit, even yesterday i met up with Andrew B (cloud man ;)) )and Marc Davidson….and there have become real parts of marina and my life….just as you are…

    from Look3 to SLPS to Burn to Circus to EPF to whatever holds forth….

    BUT ABOVE ALL…

    what matters is not the $500 (though that’s brilliant of course) but that you have had the courage and the beautifully fucked-up vision to BELIEVE….TO BE AN OPTIMIST in a sea of doubt and pessimism…and above all, David Alan Harvey, that is why i have always admired and loved you as a person….and while even amid my own life madness, gravitated toward our chats….

    you have made a difference in people’s lives…..

    and lastly, some PROMOTION FOR BURN:

    PEOPLE: i don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet (i’ve been awa from the internet all week) BUT ANTON HAS A BOOK :)))))))))))

    go buy it…i will be ordering a copy this weekend :)))))

    you can see it here:

    http://stores.lulu.com/antonkusters

    IT LOOKS GORGEOUS….sorry to embarrass you anton, but PEOPLEbuy this book! :)))))))))))))

    ok, i gotta run….

    and lastly:

    I WANT to thank all the people behind the scenes too: kerry, tom, chris, eric, lassal, marketing guy and talent scout ;))….and above all CIVI…the fucking civilian of the century!

    with out you people, nothing is possible…ALL OF YOU!

    PLEASE TAKE SOME OF THAT PROFIT AND TREAT YOURSELF TO SOMETHING! :)))))

    YOU 2 DESERVE IT..

    BIG HUGS

    bob

    ps.. CIVI YOU ARE THE BEST!

  65. eva

    Jenny, lulu needs a mailing address, you don’t need to give them other info, then you can decide how to pay (credit card, paypal.. perhaps other options, not sure), if you choose paypal nothing more is required.. looking forward to HOLD something tangible in my hands!

  67. Imants

    ps.. CIVI YOU ARE THE BEST!…………. bullshit I’m gonna get the Phthalo green shirts together and start a anti civilian movement!!!!!! ……..

  69. John Vink

    David B: the BBC movie on that link was quite uninteresting… The guy TELLING us what happened, instead of SHOWING us what happened.

  70. david bowen

    yeap – that is a weird one.. just a small isolated instance of an arrest.. photo goat-fuck possibilities with nothing really happening..

    photographers scampering about alone – as with the woman you highlighted – will provide a better insight in the comming hours / days..

    bbc impartiality is needed of course, although on-the-fence journalism can disregard greater crimes.. like journalists killed..

    :ø/

  77. bob black

    quick note on BKK:

    for those interested, Agnes D is there (she lives there too, of course) and has done some terrific reporting…she’s had a slideshow in the NYTimes published and a bunch of stuff….

    getting on the ground reports from my friend Oli pin-fat, also based in bkk….

    escalating….

    the dramatic shooting of the general …..

    will leave more links after i hear from oli and company….

    you can follow Agnes Dherbey on her facebook page too….

    http://www.agnesdherbeys.com

    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=684271320&ref=search&sid=1532803997.1464745748..1

    rnng
    b

  80. andrew sullivan

    Bob Black- Great comment. Thanks for verbalizing the passion and gratitude that I, for one, feel deeply, but have trouble saying (I need to quit self-editing).

    And to DAH and Anton, thank you guys for creating a place that has forged real friendships, partnerships and inspiration. The impact that burn has had on my career and life in photography has been profound. Before burn, I never would have guessed that Erica and I would collaborate on projects and assignments, nor would I have ever imagined she and I teaching a workshop together.

    So thank you burn for giving us the fuel to dream and to believe.

  82. Charles Peterson

    Oh, and teaching a rock photography camp to high schoolers this summer. Something like Circus could be a good inspiration. My take is going to be using rock photography as a jumping off point to be able to learn a few skills and then the world is wide open.

  84. Brian Frank

    In a time when everyone else has stopped paying for photographs, when “good enough” is good enough, this is a blast of fresh air. Love it!

  85. Herve

    but at some stage you guys deserve some reward for the monumental time you have put into this.
    —————————————————

    Yes, they deserve a lot of recognition, and I think David has told us many times this is not lacking, as BURN is definitely attracting the attention of many professionals in the medium. They(we?)received a LUCIE awards last year for best website, as well, if you recall.

  86. Herve

    Panos, Nick Nostitz is a real trooper, if you had come to Thailand, we could have gone to meet him, i tink you’d love the guy, definite iconoclast, and not interested for one second by the buck. Speaking fluent thai, too.

  87. Herve

    BOB BLACK
    i just wrote a long long comment and my school computer crashed….:((((((…
    —————————-

    …And people say computers are brainless machines! :-)))))

  89. partha

    Hi David,
    Truly a sincere and inspiring effort. Publishing in burn magazine is a prestigious matter always but token payment must be a great motivating factor. Long live BURN.
    Partha Pal,India

  91. Herve

    Panos, remember when I told you to look for his (nick) “Patpong-Twilight zone” book? If I recall, He did not make one cent out of it, the publisher sold his company not long after the book went out, and Nick lost any binding agreement he had…Or had not! (Typical with him…) ;-)

    On the other hand, his photography is squarely within the parameters of creativeness/looseness David has challenged us to strive for, and even if not quite interested in thai poltics, people could do worse than ordering his wolume 1 on the events in that country. At:

    http://www.dcothai.com/product_info.php?products_id=1004

    I should write him to see if he wants to submit an essay on BURN. Katharina and you should do the same too.

    PS: BTW, as my renewed multi-posting on BURN indicates, I am back in San Francisco, already 2 days.

  94. a civilian-mass audience

    What’s going on…???
    I can see my name …everywhere…
    please,stop the torture…I am slow…
    English not my first language…dyslexic…with fogging glasses …
    BOBBY 1669 words …:)))once an academian…always a BURNIAN…LOVE
    BUT
    SO LET’S FOCUS…focus,focus …
    you are photographers , you can do it…
    it’s all about YOU…that’s why I am here…and for the free visual stimulation…
    MR.VINK, SOM ARKOUN for everything…
    aha,you are good with twitters,links too!!!
    So nice to see some faces back… SAM HARRIS*,PAUL*,VIVEK,…HERVEEEEEEE

    well credit when credit is due…so the CREDIT GOES BACK TO YOU…
    and to the young people…cause
    “There is no sadder sight than a young pessimist.”
    Mark Twain

    P.S IMANTS…I know where you live…and you better open the door…
    i always carry…silents:)))
    FROSTFROG …thanks for your soul writing…you will succeed.
    BURNIANS get out and shoot…
    am going to feed the chickens( I see an attachment…hmmm
    I am looking for baby names…hmmm)

  95. a civilian-mass audience

    DO AS HARVEY
    DAH

    BUT there is no copy and paste…hhihiii…
    you are not civilians…you are PHOTOPHILOSOPHERS…you have to figure out the rest…

  96. a civilian-mass audience

    ANNA,
    where have you been ??? where is JARED??? AND HAIK…???

    ANNA,do you have family in Greece???

  98. eva

    Civi.. today I had to go back home three times.. one time ’cause I forgot some papers for the taxes, one time ’cause I forgot papers for the bank, one time ’cause I left envelopes on the table and only noticed when I was in the post office.. but! I did not forget the rolls I brought to be developped.. how comes that?

    If you give your babies some names you’ll never been able to kill them..

  99. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA,
    drink some rosemary(the herb of remembrance)…hmmm…doesn’t work with the collective memory
    BUT
    you can always try bloodymary…or something like that:)))
    yeap,the chickens…I rather go hungry…I have 14 now(one dead)Sophia,Alexandro,Sofokli,Anemona…
    BUT
    it might kick my survivor instinct…

    LOVE and PEACE…and PHOTOANAGENESIS

  103. Herve

    No hurry, kh, I think it would be great to have him featured here at some point.

    On another subject, what’s with Jim Powers, guys? Has he left the “building”?

  104. Tommy

    DAH, Anton,

    a) would be understandable,
    b) would be most interesting,
    but c) is just awesome

    good call you guys methinks

    It does change burn; dramatically I think; but it does evolve and like anything which is living, and breathing; evolution is necessary to survive and prosper.

    Wow.

    Best folks.

  105. pAtrIcIO m.

    DAH
    n
    t
    o
    n

    K

    What an awesome couple! long life to burn mag! Best source of inspiration!

    PS: Bob Black, uhmm shit happens… when you write loooooooooooong comments, maybe it’s better to do it in a word document, then Copy and Paste :-)

    Pat.

  106. anna boyiazis

    CIVI

    yes, CIVI. all of my grandparents were aegean islanders, born and raised in symi. my grandfather had a goat named martha and spent his early teenage years in africa before arriving at ellis island. his stories included vivid descriptions of those he befriended, as well as everything he ate, during his travels through italy and france toward america.

    my mom has three sisters, all of whom were born in the states. one of her sisters moved to thessaloniki roughly fifty years ago. she and my uncle just visited. they and my cousins spend a lot of time in cassandra and katerini. they call me psaroukla (big fish) because i love swimming and snorkeling in their/YOUR beautiful water.

    regarding HAIK — one of the warmest, nicest people ever — i have been wondering the same.

    ANNA B.

  107. Zisis Kardianos

    David and Anton, this is really ground-breaking and inspiring!
    I hope that others will soon follow your paradigm.
    As for Circus Magazine, I would love to see it growing up together with the young photographers that will help to establish.

  108. Lee Guthrie

    Herve, LOL!

    Civi, Maybe you trade someone for strange chickens when your chicks are big enough. Trade to a “nice home in the country” situation. Can you eat strange chicken? Ones without names? Giggle.

    DAH, you are amazing and very faithful. I’ve expressed my appreciation many times on this blog; consider them said again.

    Just returned from a trip to my cousin’s in Tahlequah. I took 6 photographs; there were many more I could have taken but I was in such awe of the love language in their home. When I think back on my time in their home I have memories of sitting in stunned silence as Connie (my cousin’s wife of 30 years) cradles his head during a seizure, her constant monitoring his needs without taking away his sense of independence, and her gifts waiting for me when I arrived. His body is seized by these violent motions every waking hour. Those times when he can actually throw dice during a family game are only possible because some hours are spent with just half of his body moving all the time.

    The light for taking photos was sickly but in my mind I remember only white loving light. A walk through the property garden of my apartment, I look back through the trees and see a painting. And I realized the bubbling brook that crosses the property was at the top of its banks. It was still gurgling but deep brown, with trees hanging into its path from the storm. Think I will head for higher ground. They are forecasting an inch of rain tonight.

    Going to a concert and will probably stay in town. More reports later. No time to read all the comments just skimmed and then commented. I will read more later. Jenny I have figured out the Lulu.com thing. Thanks.

    Anton, ordering your magazine/book.

  111. bob black

    Patricio ;)))))))))))

    that is why i DO NOT want to type in a word document here under comment section….this place is like a home and a point of discussion :)))….now, when i publish essays/stories/poems, then i work on word document, but here i’m willing to take the endless typos (i type fast but not terribly accurately) and grammar train wrecks, as i’m typing using in between teaching or running to a subway (as now)….

    shit happens, and damn it helps to make this place fecund! :)))

    sorry for the long comments….

    ok, gotta fly

    HUGS HUGS TO HERVE FOR THE RETURN :)))

    b

  112. anton

    HEY ALL….
     
     
     
     
    THANK YOU for all your kind comments and support…
     
     
    When David and I discussed this over Skype the day before yesterday, it literally took us two seconds to come to the conclusion that all should be given back… and literally another two seconds later we knew the only way could be the way we are going to do it now… a full four-second decision, so to speak :-)
     
     
    this little place we all built, this great community… and maybe also a little prodding to the biggies might be watching… support one another please, it’s all that counts.
     
     
    I sincerely hope we can pull it off LONG TERM and that we don’t run out of money too soon… BUT … we are settting a trend and supporting talent as much as we can and we believe in that… and we are equally sure that others will rise and come forward and join us to carry this forward and make it grow
     
     
     
    again, thanks all for your support……………………………….
     
     
     
    hugs,
    anton
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    PS.
    ON A PERSONAL NOTE, thank you everyone for spreading the word about 893 Magazine, and some even buying a copy. It’s great to see things actually turn into reality, not only the arduous & hard work creating it, but also seeing people actually buy a copy! It humbles me beyond belief.
     
     
    oh and for those who asked: going for Lulu was a purely practical decision specifically for the magazine format… I needed the combo US Letter portrait + saddle stich binding (stapled) so i could create the magazine look i was after, and as far as i researched only Lulu offered that option as print-on-demand. If someone knows alternatives, I’d be happy to hear
     
     
    I’ll keep on making issues, one every 6 months, or more if i can manage, until the actual book is ready to go… So magazine and book are very complementary and also very different concepts at the same time…. More to come on that front, stay tuned…
     
     
     
     
    thanks all of you…
     
     

  113. jenny lynn walker

    BOB: Many thanks for the link. There’s a number of great photographers here – Agnes Dherbys among them as you know. I just hope that any ideas of heroics – which are inevitably being stirred up by the injustice of what is happening – are not attempted without some precautions on the personal safety front.

    ALL: What’s all the interest in Bangkok all of a sudden anyway? I hope I get to share some of my work but I spent my last note (20Bht) on toothpaste this morning and can no longer upload to Photoshelter. Trying to figure out a way now. Happy I’ve found a place that offers free internet access.

    Just one thing: this whole HIGH-TECH Red Shirt campaign across the past 2 months has been mind boggling – brilliantly orchestrated, marketed and up-to-the-minute responsive with a HIGH-SPEED ‘education’ on inequality and class division being delivered at the same time.
    Late last night, at the Silom protest site (the day following the shooting of one of the ‘pillars’ of the protest) the atmosphere was a little muted. But, there are still thousands of protestors there and those I spoke to said they have no intention of going home and most (but not all) know that their lives are on the line. The last I spoke to – an unpaid volunteer at one of the first aid stations – said he would rather die than continue being ‘the dust under the shoes’ of the establishment.

  114. jenny lynn walker

    ANTON: So excited for you! : ) Can’t wait to see your book as soon as I’m able and like the sound of the look of the magazine – the US Letter portrait when you open it as a spread is much easier on the eye than A4 which is so widely used in the UK. Perhaps because it’s more ‘landscape’ – closer to the way we all see?

    PANOS/ALL: What not to love?? Wishing everyone a wonderful and productive day. : )

  116. jenny lynn walker

    PS The text accompanying that story on Photoshelter needs updating based on the research and information garnered over this past month.

  117. Gordon Lafleur

    Lee

    I was very moved by your post.

    Faced with a demonstration of pure love such as you describe, it is hard to react but in stunned silence. It is a gift to us. I would love to see the six photographs.

    As the parent of a person with special needs, and a member of the sub-culture it creates, I witness such scenes of love and tenderness almost daily at the day program my son attends.

    Brian flapping, the first of four. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/image/124542714

  118. Herve

    You have been there 2 months? Where can we see your pictures, Jenny?

    PS: About “class division”, more like “clientelism division”: one of the maddening things about Thailand is the total lack of solidarity, class connection between farmers and workers and between these last 2 and immigrants (compare with the reactions from the left-minded against the Arizona law in US or forced repatriations in France/Europe) , and the disconnectedness between social or workplace struggles and political upheavals. Where are the trade union advocacies in the Red Shirts movement? And how come the figurehead of the Red shirts, a rabid free-marketeer, cozied up with a Hun Sen of Cambodia?

    Ask all that to the “dust under the shoes” dude…. (rhetorically, i mean. you don’t really have to ask)

  120. jenny lynn walker

    HERVE: My dear friend? – pity you couldn’t spare a minute to meet me when you were in Bangkok because we could have talked about all of this. I agree with some of what you say but it is a very complex situation, a complex culture and a complex history which can’t be gone into in any depth in a few lines on here. If anyone is interested, I am happy to add links to articles etc that will provide a starting point. I think the Red Shirts look like a ‘right-wing far left’! Just joking because it’s hard to categorize and cannot be seen through the lens of other people’s movements because I don’t believe there’s been one quite like this before. : )

    I see ‘trust issues’ as explaining the lack of solidarity you’ve mentioned – but these relate to the culture. And on the issue of Thaksin and his fortunes – they are clearly built on his spectacular success in the cellular phone industry so yes, he’s a full-on believer in the benefits of free-market economies and, on spreading those benefits around – if in the belief that it’s to the benefit of all as it will increase the populations’ purchasing power. I do need to check out the exact facts and figures but I believe that when he was in office, by just paying 30Bht (which is less than one dollar) anyone could have access to free medical care and hospital treatment. He introduced schemes for widespread access to loans for setting up small businesses and all other sorts of stuff that the man on the street appreciated. Hence his popularity. Don’t forget he’s a self-made man – went from being a policeman to a multi-millionare – on his own efforts.

    It seems to me there is something pretty extraordinary going on here. Anyway, if you want to talk far left, perhaps you can tell me about trade union advocacies in Cuba?

  121. Sean Gallagher

    Hey All,

    Any Burnians based in Seoul, South Korea? Am going to be in and around the city for a few days next week (probably Wednesday to Friday/Saturday). I know 0 people there, so would be good to meet up!

    Cheers,
    Sean

  122. jenny lynn walker

    PS Not to say that this is not just a propaganda effort or an attempt to bring down the monarchy or get back his confiscated assets nor that the protestors are not being used, but there is clearly a high level of income disparity (not just along class lines) and the majority of money is controlled by very few hands, by an elite, and a system that maintains that divide.

    LEE: I would also love to see your latest photographs.

    Sincere apologies for taking up so much space on here. Off out…

  124. Gracie

    DAH:

    this is from Gracie (the original – back to the future)

    lookin up ahead on your post…
    1.. you should do it
    2.. i should be in it
    3.. you both are nuts.

    no im serious. your extra money should be spent on extra help. we dont want you guys to be stretched out so thin you both can be in my sandwich!!!

    if you have help already then that’s fine.
    if you dont, im calling your mother.

  125. a civilian-mass audience

    raining in Greece…my computer is down…i am transmitting from a friends house…
    can’t see the comments…
    i hope I am in the right aisle…
    can’t see photos…
    I gave away 4 chickens to a family nearby…
    they have kids…I tried to explain about CIRCUS…
    eyes wide open…they told me …that they better stick with the chickens…at least for now…
    hmmm…

    P.S I will be back to see you …I hope that you are out and shooting…or you are pretending that you are shooting…

  126. michael webster

    I do need to check out the exact facts and figures but I believe that…

    Anyway, congratulations David and Anton. You done good again.

    I’m way behind on the comments. Don’t know nothing bout thailand. Mostly agree with Panos about the NYT Moment in Time thing, but railing against the exploitation of creative folk is pissing in the wind no less than bemoaning the lack of solidarity among exploited class x and exploited class y in third world country z. My criticism has more to do with the content. At one point the editors bitched about how many photos of puppies, babies and tulips they had received, which set off a torrent of outraged replies by people who took pictures of puppies, babies and tulips. Perhaps I’m way off base, having looked at only a hundred or so out of the 10,000 plus, but it did strike me as an exercise in the maudlin rather than anything remotely approximating a particular moment in time. As I mentioned before, I participated mostly because I enjoy the challenge of doing a spot photo under the duress of an insane time constraint, but my entry did give me a few things to think about. Like most people, I see dead guys in the street all the time but rarely pause to take their photo. On a personal level, I’m okay with that. I feel there’s something a bit sick about photographing dead people in the street if it’s just for a snapshot. But taking a larger view, it would probably be better if a lot more pictures of dead guys in the street were published. It really should be news. The fact that dead people in the street is such a common sight should be news as well. Big news, actually. I’d like to see the New York Times do a “Dead Guy in the Street Day” where photographers from all over the world take pictures of all the dead guys in the street. Wouldn’t that be something? Might actually be a worthwhile way to put all those idle cameras to work. But it really depends on what’s considered worthwhile, doesn’t it? Cause let’s face it, the “worth” of “A Moment in Time” has nothing whatsoever to do with journalism, with actually telling us anything insightful about our world. It’s about hits and publicity. Is there really any worth to seeing dead guys in the street? How are you gonna monetize that? Who wants to see a virtual pile of corpses in the street, much less pay for the privilege? Interesting question that, since the answer is that we all do. Okay, not fair. Not fair, you say? Well, our actions say differently. We may avert our gaze, but we’re still stuck with the bill. But look! Over there! There’s injustice in that country on the other side of the world! Penguins are dying in the antarctic! Tsunami! Earthquake! Oh, the injustice! Don’t mind the dead guy on your own street. Just move along. Nothing to see. Not here. Not now.

  127. Justin Partyka

    David and Anton,

    “A doing the right thing kind of feeling” – that’s a bit of an understatement!

    This is a very exciting and unprecedented leap you’re making here.

    I’d like to think that all of us who contribute to Burn, will be on the look out for young photographers we can put forward to appear in Circus.

    As for paying photographers for featuring their work on Burn, that’s both great for all us photographers, but also a great and bold statement to the industry that on-line publishing should be treated seriously and professionally.

    I may be wrong, but this announcement and its legitimizing of Burn as one of the leaders (if not THE leader) in photo publishing today could cause a bit of a whirlwind – perhaps even a tornado – amongst your fellow on-line and print based editors and publishers.

    You’ve worked hard on this, often beyond what seems possible, and supported all of us, and together this has created something very special.

    You deserve to feel good!

    Here’s to now and the future….

    Justin P

  128. david alan harvey

    JUSTIN PARTYKA…

    yes, we think this will cause a whirlwind in the industry….we hope the media giants will follow….i think they will or in some cases partner with us……it is always small companies that prod the big guys…

    GRACIE…

    of course we are crazy…and enjoying every minute of it….Anton’s comment above is exactly how it came down….we KNEW instantly this was THE move…..

    you can call my mother if you want, but she was aware of my condition long ago….

    cheers, david

  129. panos skoulidas

    The fact that dead people in the street is such a common sight should be news as well. Big news, actually. I’d like to see the New York Times do a “Dead Guy in the Street Day” where photographers from all over the world take pictures of all the dead guys in the street. Wouldn’t that be something?
    —————————————————————————
    im stealing your idea Michael and calling NYT right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    thanks…brilliant

  130. Kyunghee Lee

    Sean,

    I live in Busan. the south part of peninsula.
    It takes 3 hours by train or 1 hour by plane from Busan to Seoul.
    I can’t be sure if i have a free time in week days… But please try to contact me when you arrive in Seoul…by mail(kyungheekorea@gmail.com) or cp (82-16-9606-1102).

    Is it vacation? if so, could you visit Busan?

  134. Lee Guthrie

    Gordon, then you know for sure. The six I took are nothing but I do have a series from my previous visit. I will upload them today and post. The issue is always lighting in this series as he has to keep the shades drawn and not many lights and certainly cannot use flash as it sets his seizures off.

    It must be raining all over the world Civi. I wanted to road trip to wherever the rain stopped but weather channel indicates hundreds of miles of rain. Hate driving in the rain. Guess I will have to entertain myself. Hopefully my lodging place is still high and dry. Stayed in a downtown hotel last night; arrived in the rain and woke to the rain.

    Saw an incredible dance company last night at the Walton Arts Center: Momix, Botanica. Fabulous. It seems they are having a show in NYC too. Check them out: http://tickets.waltonartscenter.org/production/view.asp?id=4306&x=3&y=14

    Jenny, saw your photos. I am just now beginning to find out about the red shirt thing. Not been watching the news much except weather channel.

    Lee (or just call me eel since the rain makes for tough mammal travel).

  136. Lee Guthrie

    Charles P, what is rock photography? Rock climbing and shooting? Or actually taking photos of rocks? I love working with kids. When I return to Maui I am scheduled to teach a photography workshop to at risk kids in a program that teaches basic life skills. Looking forward to that.

  138. Herve

    Jenny, I never said I could not spare a minute or meet. Where did you see or read that?!?!?

    Cuba? I have no sympathy for Castro and its regime, note that I mentionned France and USA, not “communist” countries.

    Poor and rich, like everywhere, Jenny, even USA.

    But frankly, and thanks to that culture you mention (as well as not so ill-willing administrations since the student revolts of the 70s), of developping 3rd world countries, Thailand is one that fared the best. Just compare with its direct neighbours, and nepal where I think you reside. Or Africa. At every step of its recent history, where others would have gone the wrong way, Thailand sailed thru and adopted sensitive decisions or compromises, that even a strong culture of clientelism/top-down patronage could not derail.

    I do not know if you have been in the region where most of the protesters come from, Issan, the North-east. I know it quite well, and at village level. I think if we want to understand something about Thailand, one needs to go there and stay a while, and I can assure you that despair and hopelessness are not the feelings we will come away from.

    Actually, there are poorer than Issan farmers in Thailand. People with no home, no land, no family support system worth its name. The immigrants, and also the landless hired hands that work in fields, migrating from region to region to make a couple bucks a day. These people are not the ones we see behind the barricades, who are quite informed, not as badly educated as we’d think, not dressed in rags, and with enthusiasm and volubility to spare. Good for them.

    Thaksin. You got most of it wrong. He comes from a sino-thai business family, studied and graduated in the USA, became a police officer (or vice-versa!), and used his connections to operate his “satellite/computerizing” business as a monopoly, at monopoly prices. Nothing reaaly wrong in a “it’s who you know” culture, but already out of the grasp of any issan farmer.

    I have little to say about his governance, I always said that the coup to remove it would bear ill for Thailand in the years to come. I am sure the disparity between rich and poor widened while he was PM (as it did just about everywhere else). His knack was PR.

    It is utterly false to say that the previous administrations never did anything for the poor (again, go to Cambodia or Burma and see what a govnmt doing nothing for the poor is about), but they always did it, while pinching their nose at the people. Thaksin, a man of his time, made it a PR matter to let people know he was not handing out, but was on their side, a man of the people (though he was not anymore than the others).

    His best innovation, IMO was the TOT plan, where each commune was given funds to establish cottage industries. WE can see it thru-out the country. the 35 bahts was a good thing too, though not paying across the board for surgery or extended care (some of which existed under the previous PR-stupid administrations). basically, it paid for each doctor’s visit, first care if you will. So far as i know, no one took it away from the people, when they coup-ed Thaksin out

    The loans. well, that sure made the banks richer, thru re-appropriation. Because most people were given loans without any know-how to invest them. some managed it well, some just spent it unwisely, but altogether, banks are now owed over 2 billion dollars. Yet, the current administration has helped negotiate a setllement so that farmers (70 or 80 000 so far, i thin) who sign in on the plane re-imburse, over a few years, only a fragment of the loan, while the govnmt will pay back the rest to the banks. A cost to the thai treasure (but only businesses really pay tax in thailand) of over a billion dollars, maybe much more in the end, when the dust will have settled.

  143. Imants

    Hmmmnnn ………….. so leicas don’t grow on trees and some dream leica so they can be a somebody, preferably “the famous somebody type” Instant success at a price

  145. jenny lynn walker

    HERVE: Thanks a lot.

    In a former incarnation, I used to track the telecommunications sector of Asia-Pacific nations and the regulatory frameworks that saw a shift from state-operated to privately-owned networks with multiple players. I also contributed to a book on regulatory frameworks aimed at disseminating this information for the benefit of developing nations around the world for a branch of the UN. During the 6 years that I was doing this, I watched how Thaksin made his millions and how he then entered the political scene. I cannot agree with what you say.

    Happy to know you liked his TOT innovation. Looking foward to reading the article you forwarded as soon as I’m able. If you keep them flowing, I’d be grateful. Or direct to me on Facebook if you think that would be better since others may not be interested.

    Wishing you a great day! Thanks again.

  146. jenny lynn walker

    ps all that stuff is funny! especially the tot innovation! unfortunately, and much more importantly 17 more people died here in Bangkok yesterday and the death toll is rising… not sure that talking does much good at this point…

  148. jenny lynn walker

    HERVE/ALL: I don’t live in Nepal. I’ve been living in Africa for FIVE YEARS out of the past 6.5 (I’m on the road for a book project). But when it comes to Africa, or at least East Africa, I’m happy to see that deregulation in the telecoms sector has brought that amazing innovation – the mobile phone – into the hands of many millions who who are now using it for all sorts of new small, local projects and businesses and thinking about this at this moment, is making me feel much happier.

  151. a civilian-mass audience

    humongous…
    enormous…from PETER’S home to your home…
    under the trees…in my dreams…
    roll up your sleeves
    no time for …IF’s…

    I am coming over…:)))
    if ash …permits …

  154. david bowen

    panos n paul t

    i think you guys have both gained licenses for using music online with your photos..right?

    any tips? i’ve been making something and want to get the music released before putting it online anywhere.. not finding much online.. otherwise i’ll write to the producer / label

    ta muchly.

  156. panos skoulidas

    All you need and must do is give them credit in Youtube or wherever else need to use the music..
    I got a great friend this way..I posted couple of my videos in utube with the music from artist BOOBOOTIN…
    amazing music…couple days later after i posted my little movies the artist himself, emailed me, thanked me..sent me links from newest songs he did and urged me to use his music..we became good friends through that…

    but i want to thank Thomas Bregulla ..he introduced me to Jamendo and changed my life since then…

  157. david bowen

    thanks man.. good find.

    i ended up using a couple of clips from mid 90’s mo-wax .. will hit up some people n see what i can do, although since the label sold to sony i doubt my old contacts there can help..

  158. panos skoulidas

    you can donate if you like but you are not forced to buy…most important you get to know tons of new artists, great music of all kinds that u cant find in mainstream record companies…millions of songs that u can legally download for Free and u can use in slideshows and movies without Stealing or backstabbing the artist..

  160. david bowen

    BOOBOOTIN sounds good.. just listened..

    the biggest trouble i had was finding music which did not overpower the photos, yet lent the photos the vibe i needed.. reflected the narrative… went through a couple of thousand tracks and found 50 or 60 possible.. the 5 or 6 obvious good ones.. and finally 2 which were bang on the money, yet trying to find music that way now leaves the licensing problems. i have some contacts who may help, including one of the artists i have used who i met on occasion.. although that may be no help whatsoever depending on his publishing deal :o)

    it is my first serious attempt at a MM piece – 2 sleepless nights and 5 days learning final cut pro.. easy stuff to use once you know how.. loads of good online tutorials… completely addictive actually and fed my OCD beautifully.

    probably took me 40 hours to make what would now take me 5 hours, although feeling really confident and glad to have learn’t it.

  161. a civilian-mass audience

    See…I told ya PANOS … there are good Germans too…:)))(to be perceived as a joke)
    I know…virtual word can get twisted…

    LOVE YOU THOMAS and JAMENDO and YOUTUBE…MYTUBE…
    what not to TUBE !!!

    P.S no more beer for me

  162. david bowen

    ta panos..
    i think next time the way forward is to either begin with searching a site like you suggested or limit myself to artists i know who would be happy to help out.

    i tried creating the music myself.. just could not get what i wanted.
    really though – highlighted for me how much easier music is to convey feelin.. finding tracks which did not upstage or overpower the subtlety of the snaps was the challenge.

    okay – going to catchup on news stuff now.. it’s sunday after all..

    cheers
    d

  163. Herve

    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/05/16/nick-nostitz-in-the-killing-zone/
    ———————————–
    Thanks, Panos, though Nick omits to tell us if the bullets shot were rubber bullets or real, or both. the guy joking about having only a slingshot is very symptomatic of this whole charade of playing david against Goliath (if so, all has been ended, burmese or chinese style, over night, some weeks ago). Yumi Goto just posted on FACEBOOK a twitter post from a photographer being threatened not to take any pictures by 5 Red Shirts yielding hand guns (why am I thinking of the Newsreel snippet of a khmer rouge doing the same, toting a gun at people, as they entered Phnom Penh, 35 years ago?).

    I have more than sympathy for the working men and farmers of Thailand, but I piss on everyone who calls himself a leader in that country, and backs his power with backroom deals and a militia of murderous goons. If I may say…. ;-)

  164. Herve

    BAY TO BREAKERS race today in San Francisco. Passing right in front of my house. Last year, they “banned” selling alochol along the route. I hope they did not ban nudity too, this year…. :-)))))

  165. panos skoulidas

    Herve…you obviously been there (thailand i mean)…met people, understand the dynamics…I’ve heard the best about Nick…and read all tweets, seen utube videos linked by JV and many more…The more i read, the more i get confused…Is this a Civil War? Is it a dictatorship..Is it ALL against the government/army?Is the country split in two parts (civil war)…Is it only BKK? is this happening all over the country? the more i read the more i get confused..Can anyone sum it up?

  167. panos skoulidas

    We have no electricity & water feels very acid
    ————————————————-
    Seh Daeng has his kidney cleaned but his condition is still critical. The hospital will hold a press conference tomorrow.
    ————————————————
    (18.42) a proteser got shot in the stomach while he is running toward Century Hotel.
    ————————————————
    http://twitter.com/veen_NT

    Got a tweet from someone saying he/she being trapped in a building in Sathorn Soi 1 surrounded by reds planning to burn tyres.
    ———————————
    13 companies in the financial blacklist mostly belong to or are related to the Shinawatras. We are looking for more details
    ———————————
    By “blacklist”, I mean the affected individuals/companies won’t be able to do financial transactions.
    ———————————
    http://twitter.com/tulsathit

  168. Herve

    Can anyone sum it up?
    ————————–

    I will try, panos, later today. But always remember that in Thailand anything can happen and… its contrary too. possibly at the same time, by the same people. Does that help already? :-)))))))))))

  170. Tommy

    Anton,

    Re: Magazine production for your personal project. Lulu is probably more book orientated although granted it kinda fits the bill in terms of on demand publication. I have come across a service in beta “Mag Cloud” which is specifically designed for magazine on demand production. I suspect that it will allow for more magazine type of prices too. A similar model to lulu so it should be familiar to work with.

    Now I haven’t actually used the service so I can’t testify or recommend, nor do I specifically know the detail of what you are to trying to achieve – so this is for information only. It may be worthwhile investigating further.

    http://magcloud.com

    (ps – I have no association commercial or otherwise with the service either!)

  172. paultreacy.com

    David Bowen

    I licensed some music from the mobygratis site. But now that Burn is about to pay contributors, my license may become null and void. I have to look into it.

    Paul.

  174. Eric Espinosa

    DAVID/ANTON,

    well well well….just back after being away for 4 days with the kids by the sea…. big BIG news indeed upon my return!!!! It is inspiring to see the two of you set up high standards like this. All photographers out here are wishing for your success and for others to follow… i.e the big guys as you call them…

    Past week-end has all been about relaxing, enjoying the kids, the sea, the sun, eating scallops, photographing the family…I kind of know why you ended up in the Outer Banks David….tough life really:):):)

    Well everything had an end….back to work tomorrow….

    Cheers,

    Eric

  175. michael webster

    2 sleepless nights and 5 days learning final cut pro..

    Sounds like you’re ready for AfterEffects.

    i tried creating the music myself.. just could not get what i wanted.

    Yep, I’ve been down that road too. I spend days, weeks working, working, but rarely get what I want. Still, fun stuff. Moments of sublime happiness in there among the dreck.

  176. anton

    TOMMY —

    nail on the head… MagCloud would have been perfect but I found it weird (to say the least) that they only do US… I would’ve signed up straightaway if this limitation wasn’t there

    If as you say Beta is UK and Canada added, that is a good eveolution…. now still the rest of the world….. that’s still many many countries to go…………………..

    a

  177. Lee Guthrie

    Hey all. Sun plays such funny games; I go out to shoot and it goes away; I come home and sun comes out. So consequently, I have so many shots of flowers, squirrels, rabbits and horses, more flowers, flooded creek, chickens, people I am renting from (finally sneaking in a few now that they trust me), and beagles on the trail of squirrel.

    But what it is doing is making me really look for good photos. And that is fun to do; find pictures as they pop out with the erratic sun.

    There is a beautiful black gelding on the property. A funny thing happened yesterday afternoon when I stopped by his pasture to converse. He looks me in the eye and lets his giant penis drop down and wags it at me! Swear to goodness. Strangest feeling; I left right away. Made me shiver.

    Today I got some really nice ones of him in the tall grasses with the evening sun shining around and juxtaposition with two rabbits with the sun shining through their ears. I am happy to be shooting beauty actually. And was on the town square today during a rare hour of sun and got some shots of a birthday party and other people visiting a giant elephant created from tires that is visiting our fair town. A very strange collection of photos due to very strange and electric weather.

    And then there is Bangkok….thinking about it and viewing the postings here the last few days makes me really almost ill. I don’t want to dwell on it but it is important to remember and send out healing.

    Hope you are all well everywhere in the world tonight.

  180. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    I just returned home from the NY Photo Festival where I heard a collective intake of breath when Casey announced at the Slideluck Potshow that DAH and Burn Mag would start paying photogs whose essays are published on Burn. Folks were pretty jazzed to hear that news! I just want to add my enthusiastic appreciation to DAH and Anton for dreaming big and then making it happen. Not just about paying for essays published online — pretty much unheard of in times like these — but for following through on the idea of creating Circus for the truly emerging photogs among us. Bravo to all who will help make this happen.

    And to those dear Burnians who have sent emails to be sure I’m OK. I am right as rain and shooting my little heart out. Have just been taking a bit of time away from Burn. Actually I’ve been cutting way back on computer time altogether. It’s spring and the outside calls…

    Patricia

  183. paultreacy.com

    Patricia, did Christopher Morris show any more of his deliciously weird and dark little films at the festival? He blew a lot of minds, well mine certainly, in 2008 when he screened his b/w Bush film. Ominous stuff.

  185. a civilian-mass audience

    BURNIANS…

    JIM is fine..I just talked to him…he was washing his corvette …yeap, and he was drinking
    cold beer…
    ahhhh…he had a haircut…just a trim…
    he is shooting…
    he mention something about …navel gazers…hmmmm…I have no clue…
    you know me…
    and of course…he refuses to accept his key for the Greek house…
    hmmm…I understand …
    WE LOVE YOU JIM and we miss you…
    VIVA !!!

    Tomorrow is REIMAR’S BIRTHDAY…I got red wine…

    ANTON,
    I haven’t bought the magazine yet…I am waiting for my paycheck…:)((
    long wait…I am Greek afterall

    LEE,
    we travel with you…THANK YOU
    and by the way…where is this black donkey:)))???

    EVA…VIVA…I LOVE IT …!!!

    JENNY…oime…thanks

    OURPATRICIA…THANK YOU …you are THE soul ,our inspiration,our white eagle…
    and yes…keep it UP …I believe in YOU !!!

    KATIE FONSECAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA…oime…kisses to the family…
    Congrats for JULIETTTAAAAAAAAA…

    FORMULA ONE…broommmmmm….
    BURNIANS START THE ENGINESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

  186. a civilian-mass audience

    BOBBY BLACK…your birthday is coming too…
    I am getting ready:)))

    AKAKY,SIDNEY,AUDREY,SAM,ANDREWB,KATHARINA,LASSAL,JARED,ANNA(the psaroukla),
    PAUL,MYGRACIE,STELIOS,THODORIS,FELIX…TORCAPA,WENDY,
    KERRY,ANNIE…

    trees and dreams …and lullabies …

    I am not done yet…:)))

  187. a civilian-mass audience

    and we need to hear from BURNIANS in China…
    big tornado ???

    may the spirits of life be with you …

  191. a civilian-mass audience

    MATTHEWWWWWWWWWW…

    I forgot to THANK you for the above link…
    one day …when you will visit Grecolandia
    you might find out that this Australian chicken breeder …has lots of similarities with
    your Civilian…:)))
    Matthew …thanks…and thanks for showing up…
    what are you shooting???

  192. a civilian-mass audience

    IMANTS…
    we LOVE YOU …too…

    When is your book ready…??? hmmm…I am waiting for my paycheck
    let me know, so I can move accordingly

    VIVA IMANTS,VIVA !!!

  193. Imants

    oi!!! “Ordinary One” ……. I have a three completed…….. David is having a Bo Peep at one…………………………

  195. Matthew Newton

    CIVI,

    I was in Grecolandia a five years ago. It is a shame I knew so little then.
    You can see my journey on http://www.abc.net.au/dustonmyshoes/doms.htm
    goto PARALLEL JOURNEY.
    My accomplice and I followed in the footsteps of a not soooo famous Aussie
    traveler called Peter Pinney….overland Grecolandia to Myanmar….

    Now I am shooting Tasmania – the heart shaped island at the bottom at the world….

  196. a civilian-mass audience

    ououuuuuuuuuuuuu
    u
    MATTHEW …is that you ??? MATT and ANNA…
    SPEECHLESS…

    ok…take PETER PINNEY …your familia…and come over…
    you don’t need much…
    I don’t have much :)))
    you will “suffer” BUT I guess Tasmania…ain’t easy either…
    BRAVO !!!

  197. a civilian-mass audience

    and I see that MATTHEW has a book out there…

    THE SHACK LIFE

    AND IMANTS is going or three books…and ROSSY …and ANDREAC…and LISA…and KERRY
    VIVA AUSSIES!!!

  199. Herve

    I see (Jim Powers). Thanks Imants.

    I shall never “leave” BURN, even if I do not post anymore, someday (It’s a buddhist thing against clinging and “life is changes”, blahblah…) :-)))

  200. panos skoulidas

    My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you’ll be happy; if not, you’ll become a philosopher.
    ………………………………. Socrates

  202. jenny lynn walker

    PANOS: No chance of that Aristotle Quote happening to me!

    CIVI: Oime?! : )

    BOB: They say that you don’t like things in others that you dislike in yourself and I see that it is me that writes way too much. I’m wishing you a truly wonderful birthday tomorrow!

    ALL: What not to love?! + Dreaming Big!!! (thanks to Patricia, and inspired by DAH and Anton)

    How about a little relaxation music and gorgeous landscapes because – although the fires are raging and skirmishes and clashes always underway somewhere – it is surely a WONDERFUL WORLD TODAY(plus i just heard the Thai government appears to have backed down on the ultimatum which if true, has saved this one at least!!!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_TGk99Yp6w

    : )

  203. jenny lynn walker

    ps please do one wonderful and different thing tonight… something, even if very, very small, you don’t usually do… and keep it a secret : )

  204. jenny lynn walker

    ps please do one wonderful and different thing tonight… something, even if very, very small, you don’t usually do… and keep it a secret : )

  205. Herve

    All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind.
    —————————-

    Aristotle did not know me, apparently! :-)))

    PS: Jenny, kiss something, someone, in Bangkok for me!

  206. jenny lynn walker

    ok… gonna do it right away… you too Herve

    (if only the Thai PM was here – i’d like to give him a kiss for today’s decision – so long as there’s no u-turn)

  207. panos skoulidas

    Hmm.. Whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas…
    or something of this nature…and whatever happens in Vegas!
    plz, definitely u want it to be kept as secret .. no matter how
    “small” or “big”..
    Biggest hug

  208. jenny lynn walker

    Kiss done!

    That quote was beyond me Herve, think I misunderstood it. No paid job is what I’ve been used to for a while – but I think it depends on the job, some paid jobs are super mind-expanding. : )

  209. Lee Guthrie

    civi, wasn’t a donkey it was a beautiful black horse and it is in NW Arkansas where I am staying and rained in again!!!!

  211. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA…Dearest EVA…
    please check your e-mail…
    I hope you will understand…you are a BIG HEART…a true BURNIAN…Speechless!!!

    THANK you again…
    OOO

  212. eva

    Civi, checked.. have not (big heart that is, don’t even know if I have one at all.. hmm…).. check back ;)

  214. Jason_Houge

    Hi everyone, DAH/Anton
    Long time no talk from me! How is everyone??? I see Burn has been getting hotter!!

    DAH/Anton, This sounds great! congrats to all of the future photographers to be published here on Burn!

    Aa question for you all…
    I’ve been working on a project about the city I live in since January. It’s a city of historical significance in Wisconsin and has a lot of character in its people and buildings. It’s on the western shore of Lake Michigan. It’s slowly losing its population down to about 2,300 from a peak of about 4,000 and is in transition from being an important town to its inhabitance to a stop for tourists…

    So my questions is: when I go out shooting – I always feel like I have to explain myself and why I’m there to everyone I meet. Usually nobody minds what I’m doing after I talk to them. But I always feel by talking to them, I am disturbing my subject and making them aware of my presence – causing them not to be as they were before I was there. I can shoot from a distance but I want to be close.

    How do many of you deal with this? I wish I could ask HCB his secret… perhaps it had a lot to do with him being foreign and having stealthy abilities (and a camera that doesn’t “CLACK” like mine ;)

  215. Jason_Houge

    DAH, my work from NY is in yet another gallery – I will send pictures soon, I also have a small book I’d like to send to you shall I send it to your NY address?

  216. a civilian-mass audience

    EVA,
    “Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love.”
    Lao Tzu quotes (Chinese taoist Philosopher)

    VIVA …I LOVE YOU…!!!

  217. a civilian-mass audience

    JASON,

    hmmm…as a civilian …my first reaction will be…WHY???
    for what reason???
    are you working for a newspaper???magazine???
    your answer might be…:
    no,I am just photographing for myself.
    and then a secret collaboration will begin…an intimate relationship will start
    and the rest is history…

    ok, goodnight ALLLLLL…from your house …somewhere in Grecolandia…
    feathers EVA:)))

  218. Ross Nolly

    Jason;

    I have to do the same thing shooting my kids project. For me; I prefer the “out in the open, go up and have a chat approach” compared to the invisible fly on the wall.

    I find that it generally relaxes people, you get to know them, you get to learn what else is going on in the area, and; they act more naturally when they trust you.

    I even have a bunch of A4 documents explaining the project and containing all my contact details in my camera bag to give to people.

    It might be a bit different for me because I’m photographing kids; and I want every “I” dotted and every “T” crossed…

    “I wish I could ask HCB his secret… perhaps it had a lot to do with him being foreign”

    In my opinion HCB’s best work was done at home in France, where he was not a foreigner! :-)

    Cheers :-)

  221. Windup

    DAH and Anton: Thank you so very much for your generosity and vision … not necessarily in that order. Jason: the best advise I ever got was that it’s okay to be “the photographer”. (That we MUST be “the photographer”.) Also: there are paying jobs out there that nourish the soul each and every day. I have one and I’m pretty sure Lao Tzu would agree. PEACE.

  223. Jason_Houge

    Thank you Ross and Civi for the ideas… I think the hardest thing is ok there are kids playing in the yard – today is different than it was then – you photograph them the parents want to know why, yell at the kid to come in and give you the nasty look or worse… – usually the kids aren’t being supervised much anyways.
    It just seems to me there is a sense of hysteria and a hyper-sensitivity to being photographed.
    If you’re shooting kids, are you some sort of pedophile? a kidnapper?
    And since many times since they’re not being supervised closely, the reaction is the kids shy up and run away…

    for adults – What are you going to use that photo for? Or there is also this reaction: “Oh you’re taking a photo – I’m sorry i’ll get out of your way.”

    I think it’s a combination of too many bad movies, too much bad news on tv and being the home to some creepy people – Ed Gein, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc… people get weirded out.

  224. Ross Nolly

    Jason;“I think the hardest thing is ok there are kids playing in the yard” etc.

    I agree things are different now than what they were “years ago”, but how about just going up to the house knock on the door and talk to the kid’s folks? Then if they are happy spend a few hours with those kids so they relax and forget about you.

    And never forget; don’t be afraid to make a bit of a goose of yourself around the kids! The kids and their parents will have a laugh; you’ll break the ice and probably get some good pics. Also; take some pics that the parents will like for their album and give them to them as hi-res jpegs on a cd.

    If I’m, at the skatepark, beach etc and there are no parents I dole out a ton of my cards and those A4 sheets and ask them to give them to their parents when they get home; and for their parents to contact me if needed.

    I spent about 4 or 5 hours (at least) with the “kids” in #11&12 in the gallery below. Just generally playing silly buggers until they regarded me as part of the furniture.

    Spent half the day with girls/family in #13 and one and a half days with the family of the girl in #14.

    http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/25780

    I can honestly say I had the same fears as you when I started shooting my project but have encountered no negativity at all. I think it also comes down as to whether parents/kids can sense your honesty etc… That probably sounds a bit airy-fairy; but I’m sure it’s true. People can spot a bull-shitter from a hundred paces! :-)

    Actually I have had one piece of negativity; on last Xmas Eve. But it was from someone of my age, drunk and aggro, and really just spoiling for trouble and nothing to do with the project really. Just seeing someone with a camera was like a red rag to a bull….

    Hope this helps;

    Cheers :-)

  225. Lance Rosenfield

    Congratulations David, Anton, and the Burn community.

    David, the helicopter is finally scheduled… May 30th. Will keep you posted. Speaking of pay.. no one else wants this but I do and therefore it comes out of my pocket.

    Being poor can slow you down. Being wealthy can blind you and make you lazy.

    Best to stay optimized and energized either way.

  226. Kenji Arimura

    i don’t see any problem of you keeping the money of the fee since you guys work so hard for Burn to happen, but it’s very loyal of you, Dah and Anton, to give it back paying for the published essays. You guys are fantastic! Inspiring people!

  227. Imants

    so here at Burn we are creating Circus Magazine for photographers 18 and under………. that is the important part unless you live in a third world country where the US dollar is worth a motza then the $500 will be a treasured to keep working

  229. Herve

    Thanks John! from that blog, today’s entry (17th) I think: “I notice however how many of them do not really look at the picture to see something but rather to find something and see what they want to”….

    Not surprising, I suppose, but to be compared with the crackdowns on monks and people (really unarmed, these ones) in Burma, 3 years ago, where what was really happening, the truth of it needed no spontaneous wishful manufacturing. When the danger was not just to take pictures, but even more dangerous: taking them out.

    I find the (zillion) pictures we see from the Bangkok siege shows a lot, but begins to explain absolutely nothing. It all seems a free for all photographer’s feast, very much akin, in more dramatic manner, to the “Welcome to amazing Thailand!” deployed in tourist brochures and tourist authorities campaigns.

    There is no “truth” in them . One single picture of a monk’s robe lying in a pool of mud and blood near Yangoon, Burma, told much more than those zillion shots of burning tires, and guys, soldiers or protesters, running to and fro, eyes shot red with adrenaline and tear gases.

    Food for thought….

  230. Herve

    Monk’s robe lying in blood, but I could have also mentionned the picture of an irate woman pushing back policemen in Phnom penh, another crying behind amidst a powerless crowd of their neighbours, all about to see their dwelling crushed by a caterpillar and an army of tool yielding goons, during a forced eviction process. Where is that crushing pain, the duress of proclaimed piled injustice in the Bangkok-burning pictures, and as well in the 2 months long protest itself? I do not see…

  232. jenny lynn walker

    HERVE/ALL: I agree with you. Bangkok has become a place of violence – in SOME areas – and I think it is important to qualify this as the violence still remains HIGHLY LOCALIZED which is not at all easy to ascertain by looking at the news being circulated worldwide. Much of Bangkok is functioning perfectly normally.

    The violence taking place is being extremely well documented – much better than the first month of the protest which was entirely peaceful of course. Clearly there is an insatiable appetite around the globe for images/stories of violence – I guess that is what we call “the news”. Of course, there MUST be documentation at a time when the military has been given freedom to shoot people dead with LIVE BULLETS when they identify someone as “a terrorist” and have not issued guidelines on how to identify “a terrorist”.

    identifying members of the Red Shirts as “terrorists” can partially be traced back to a single photograph of someone that was dressed like “a terrorist” and was published in the New York Times (said now to be part of a para-military force that may or may not be on the side of the Reds) it seems to me and then, the fear that was spread. Where are the “men in black” at the moment? Has anyone taken any pictures of them over the past week?

    “Welcome to amazing Thailand”. Yes. It is also amazing how quickly damage to a whole nation can be done by exaggerated news coverage. Already governments were issuing travel warnings when there was virtually nothing to warn about because the problem, at that time, was so highly localized. I actually wonder whether there is an element of “we are creating the world we see” in all of this – whether sharing images of the violence breeds fear and more violence and it being sharing so rapidly, causes those in whose interest it is to see civil war in Thailand get their way. In whose interest is it to see civil war in Thailand anyway? Perhaps this ‘people’s revolution’ – if that is what it really is, is meant to be.

    I have today uploaded 2 images on Facebook and will upload a third related to Seh Daeng – the military general who was shot in the head while talking with journalists last week who died in hospital yesterday. His death lies behind this sudden increase in violence and I just can’t imagine who would have shot him because few things could have ignited such volatility as this. The images of him are of him signing t-shirts on the street during the protest – ie of him alive – and then at his funeral yesterday.

    By the way, does anyone know which party/government in Thailand has US-backing or which government in Thailand is favoured by the current US administration?

    Just one more thing: after witnessing several world news event’s (Mumbai terrorist attack, unrest in Nepal, Gadhimai Mela and now Bangkok) I’m questioning whether the zillions of photographs of simply the moments of violence help – especially when they’re being circulated at such a high speed that it puts great pressure on those who are actually in a position to slow things down through sensible, considered decision-making.

    PS Thanks Herve for your suggestion yesterday because when I kissed by husband in the internet cafe yesterday, it brought a smile.

  237. panos skoulidas

    “…The Communist insurgency led by the Communist Party of Thailand staged armed struggle in the countryside in the 60s. Communist and radical ideas attracted a handful of intellectuals. The communist movement was seen collateral with the independent movement in the Indochinese countries, waging war against the US. As a result, military junta expanded its grip. Intellectual as well as violent clashes between the junta and the intellectual sparked in the urban and the countryside respectively.
    Student-led uprisings in October 1973 led to a new vision of liberating the country from military government for a short period. The media received more freedom to criticize politicians and governments, while revolutionary and socialist movements became more apparent. The new civilian government officially shut the U.S. bases amid the fear of the communist victory in the Indochinese countries in 1975. In 1976, Admiral Sa-ngad Chaloryu, the armed forces commander, staged a massacre and coup that brought hardline anti-communists to power and reversed these reforms…”

  238. panos skoulidas

    Thaksin’s supporters, known as ‘The Red Shirts’, began its huge anti-government demonstration aiming at the resignation of the prime minister and the dissolution of the House of the Representatives

    In the January 2001 elections, telecommunications ‘multimillionaire’ Thaksin Shinawatra, who had relation with the 1990s junta, and his Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party won an overwhelming victory on a populist platform of economic growth and development.
    Thaksin also marginally escaped (8:7) a guilty verdict in the Constitutional Court where he was charged by the Board of Anti-Corruption of hiding hundreds-of-million-baht-worth of shares with several of his employees. A decade later, a Supreme Court ruling in another case accepted a possibility of bribery in the Constitutional Court case.

    The anti-government protesters were, said, mostly better educated, more affluent, urban Thais criticizing that the a Western-style electoral system corrupted by rich politicians, Thaksin was blasted as having exploited to buy votes, bureaucrats, policemen, military officers and even political factions. Thaksin became the example of the businessman autocrat, launching so-called populist projects which some were controversial such as the War on Drugs. Hundreds of killings and murder cases were said by the police, as the fighting among the drug traffickers. No further investigation carried on. Judicial process was seen as useless, instead, the decisive justice should be in the hands of the police.

    Thaksin hmmm…doesnt seem to be the good guy…either!

  239. panos skoulidas

    On May 3, the Thai Prime Minister announced he was willing to hold elections on November 14 should the opposition red shirts accept the offer. The following day red shirt leaders accepted the proposal to leave the occupied parts of Bangkok in return for election on the scheduled date.
    However, one week later, May 10, protesters had yet to dispand despite accepting the ‘road map’ proposed by the prime minister for early 2010 November elections. They placed new demands upon the Prime minister that Deputy Prime Minster Suthep Thaugsuban, who was incharge of security operations on the clash of april 10th, must first turn himself in for prosecution before they willingly disperse.
    ——————————

    its obvious that the Reds leaders changed their mind about the elections on november 14th…but why?
    did they realize they have no chance? Is it because that Thaksin guy is unpopular?

    In the afternoon of April 14, the anti-riot troops controlled all main streets. The leaders of the protest decided to give up their activity. During their protest, Thaksin video-linked to support the protesters, urging them to ‘bring him home’.
    Thaksin clearly vowed to topple the government, calling for ‘revolution’.

  240. michael webster

    So what are you getting at with the Communist/anti-Communist history, Panos? It’s certainly a big clue in understanding the human world, but how do you see it as such?

    Since commenting from the proverbial 40,000 feet, I’ve read quite a bit on the current situation in Thailand. Apparently no one, at least no one who’s talking to the press, knows what’s going on. Not specifically anyway. Cause it’s safe to say that wealthy and powerful factions are jockeying for wealth and power. I doubt very seriously there are any good guys among them. At best someone may pretend to be one if it provides some immediate advantage. In that sense, your little history lesson is illustrative. Back when socialism was a real possibility, the powers that be made concessions, shared a bit more of the wealth, but have steadily been walking back those reforms as any real challenge to their control recedes. These changes move faster and much more violently in the third world (hate that term but can’t think of a better one. Calling it the developing world is sick joke), but we’re all going in the same direction. Although I have no idea what specifically is happening in Thailand right now, I suspect it’ll turn out to be another laboratory experiment for our future. When the current crisis is over, the rich will be richer, and fewer; the powerful more powerful, democracy weaker, wages lower, working conditions worse, the environment more endangered, the drugs and whores cheaper and more plentiful. Those things are not bugs. They are features.

  241. panos skoulidas

    “Welcome to amazing Thailand”. Yes. It is also amazing how quickly damage to a whole nation can be done by exaggerated news coverage. Already governments were issuing travel warnings…
    —————————————————————————-
    Question: can really those riots affect the traditional sex tourism in Thailand?

    “Thai society,
    has its own unique set of often contradictory sexual mores. Visiting a prostitute or a paid mistress is a not uncommon though not necessarily acceptable behavior for men. Many Thai women, for example, believe the existence of prostitution actively reduces the incidence of rape.
    Another reason contributing to this issue is that ordinary Thais deem themselves tolerant of other people, especially those whom they perceive as downtrodden. This acceptance has allowed prostitution to flourish without much of the extreme social stigma found in other countries. According to a 1996 study, people in Thailand generally disapprove of prostitution, but the stigma for prostitutes is not lasting or severe, especially since many prostitutes support their parents through their work. Some men do not mind marrying former prostitutes.[2] A 2009 study of subjective well-being of prostitutes found that among the sex workers surveyed, sex work had become normalized.[3]
    This cultural milieu combined with poverty and the lure of easy money have caused prostitution in general and sex tourism in particular to flourish.
    Estimates of the number of prostitutes vary widely and are subject to controversy. A 1980 study put the number of prostitutes at 500,000 to 700,000. A 2004 estimate by Dr. Nitet Tinnakul from Chulalongkorn University gives a total of 2.8 million sex workers, including 2 million women, 20,000 adult males and 800,000 minors under the age of 18.[4] One estimate published in 2003 placed the trade at US$ 4.3 billion per year or about three percent of the Thai economy.[5] It has been suggested for example that there may be as many as 10,000 prostitutes on Koh Samui alone, an island resort destination not usually associated with prostitution, and that at least 10% of tourist dollars may be spent on the sex trade.[6]
    Although centers such as Bangkok (Patpong, Nana Plaza, and Soi Cowboy), Pattaya, and Phuket (Patong) are often identified as primary tourist “prostitution” areas, with Hat Yai and other Malaysian border cities catering to Malaysians, prostitution takes place in nearly every major city and province in the country.
    Chiang Mai and Koh Samui (Chaweng and Lamai) are also major centers. In Bangkok, the so-called Ratchadapisek entertainment district, running along Ratchadapisek Road near the Huay Kwang intersection, features several large entertainment venues which include sexual massage. Even karaoke style bars in small provincial towns have their own versions, with women, in addition to singing traditional Thai music, sometimes engaging in prostitution.
    Perhaps as a parallel with the tenets of Thai Buddhism, Thai sex workers (and the whole culture, generally) does not feel guilt; thus, sex workers can and do feel respectable. Thais can feel shame, if specifically spotlighted by any potentially embarrassing situation, but guilt is absent.

    Legal situation and history

    Prostitution had been illegal in Thailand [9] since 1960, when a law was passed under pressure from the United Nations. However, the prohibition was seldom enforced. Instead, the government has instituted a system of monitoring sex workers in order to prevent their mistreatment and to control the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.[1] The 1960 Law was repealed by The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996)[10].
    Thailand has an ancient, continuous tradition of legal texts, generally described under the heading of Dhammasattha literature (Thai pron., tam-ma-sat), wherein prostitution is variously defined, and universally banned. The era of traditional legal texts came to an end in the early 20th century, and the significance of these earlier texts on both the writ and spirit of modern legislation cannot be overlooked.[7]
    The “Entertainment Places Act of 1966” is one of the modern laws regulating massage parlors, go-go bars, karaoke bars, bathhouses and similar establishments. Under this law such establishments are required to be licensed. The law does not expressedly permit prostitution, but allows for “service providers” and “bath service providers,” differentiated from regular, non-sexual service staff.[8] For example, there are massage parlors where men come and look at women, who are sitting separated by a glass wall (known as a “fishbowl”), and may choose whom they want. The women go to a room where they bathe and massage the customers, but in reality may do much more than that.
    The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, B.E. 2539 (1996)[11] (the “Prostitution Law”), is the central legal framework prohibiting prostitution. The law defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is. The crime of solicitation is vaguely defined. A “John” soliciting the services of a prostitute is liable under the Prostitution Law only if the solicitation is done “openly and shamelessly or causes a nuisance to the public”, the penalty being a fine of up to 1,000 baht.

    Interview with a Thai human rights activist

    Kritaya Archavanitkul, a Thai human rights activist, interviewed by UC Berkeley Institute of International Studies, said,
    “This is sad to say, that the Thai social structure tends to accept this sort of abuse, and not only to accept – we have laws, we have bills that vitally support the existence of these sex establishments. That’s one thing. And also, we have a Mafia that is also involved in the political parties, so this keeps the abuse going. The second reason is a cultural factor. I don’t know about other countries, but in Thailand the sexual behavior of Thai men accepts prostitution. Every class of Thai men accept it, although not all Thai men practice it. So they don’t see it as a problem. So when it comes to the policymakers, who are mostly men, of course, they don’t see this as a problem. They know there are many women who are brought into prostitution in Thailand. They know that some are treated with brutal violence. But they don’t think it’s a terrible picture. They think it’s just the unlucky cases. And, because of the profit, I think there are many people with an interest involved, so they try to turn a blind eye to this problem.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand

  242. michael webster

    And the idea that photography is a force for good is naive, to say the least. These days, in the larger sense, it’s like the rain. Pervasive and totally indifferent to any moral outcome.

  243. panos skoulidas

    2008 July – Thaksin Shinawatra’s corruption trial begins.
    Thaksin’s wife is found guilty of fraud and sentenced to three years in jail. She is granted bail pending an appeal.

    2008 August – Thaksin flees to BRITAIN with his family after failing to appear in court to face corruption charges.

    Thai Supreme Court gives fugitive former PM Thaksin Shinawatra a two-year jail sentence after finding him guilty of corruption over a land deal.

    2009 March-April – Supporters of former PM Thaksin Shinawatra hold mass rallies against the government’s economic policies.

    2009 December – Up to 20,000 Thaksin supporters rally in Bangkok to demand fresh elections. Mr Thaksin addressed them by video-link.

    Supreme Court strips Mr Thaksin’s family of half of its wealth in verdict deeming that $1.4bn was acquired illegally through conflict of interest during his time as prime minister. Security forces placed on high alert amid fear of clashes with Thaksin supporters.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1243059.stm
    ———————————————————————-

    HMMM.now i see why Thaksin urges the Reds to protest..because he is in exile and lost all his money…He cant be back in power unless there is some kind of revolution..definitely not under elections…It seems that he doesnt care about elections because he cant lead…He prefers destruction at this point while sitting in front of his TV somewhere in London , “broke”…

  244. panos skoulidas

    In whose interest is it to see civil war in Thailand anyway?
    —————————————–
    hmmm Jenny…according to BBC at least..its in Thaksin’s interest ..nobody elses…..
    u know , that guy chilling somewhere in London right now…u know that guy that lost the Power plus 1.4bn$…of course he is mad as hell…

  245. panos skoulidas

    So what are you getting at with the Communist/anti-Communist history, Panos?
    ———————————————————-
    well Michael..u know, that easy cliche that answers all questions? That the US is behind everything? well im not that sure it works well this time (of course i could be wrong, time will tell)…but it seems that the latest developments in Thailand “deserve” a more specific answer..

  246. jenny lynn walker

    Panos: The change of mind to disperse was because there is absolutely NO trust in this government whatsoever among the Red Shirts and when a key leader is killed with a bullet to the head while he is being interviewed by the foreign press, who can blame them? Are you aware of how media control has grown under this government – everybody knows this. What you have totally missed in your investigation is the question is the issue of the monarchy. This government came into office because Thaksin was believed to be posing a threat to the monarchy and back then, there was talk of Thailand being made into a Republic (whether Thaksin was involved in any way in the discussions or not). You must also investigate in whose interest it is to have Thaksin up on corruption charges and his assets confiscated. And also which foreign governments may be interested in keeping this current government in office. Also ask the question who is funding all of this?

    By the way, there is a lot more to Thailand than either tourism or the sex industry.

  247. jenny lynn walker

    PS But that is not to say that the King or the monarchy is in any way involved in this – especially if you read one of the few statements made by His Magesty back then (although it was the regiment under the Queen that was in charge of the military offensive on April 10). Best you also read the article on the fear surrounding what will happen when the king dies. He is much loved by so many here – the Economist article which was published, but banned here in Thailand, around a month ago partially covers that.

  248. panos skoulidas

    That’s why I’m searching and searching..
    Thaksin so far is affiliated with the 1991 junta,
    therefore he doesn’t hesitate to take the military on
    his side whenever and IF he can..
    There is no way I can prove how corrupted Thaksin is..
    ( most info comes through BBC love it or hate it..leave
    it or take it kinda thing).. Now the guy is a billionaire..
    Hmmm.. Not your average peoples guy, right?
    1.4 billion $ confiscated by the government..
    That all he had in a “Thai” bank plus land..
    Do u think that’s all he had? Do u think he can’t fund
    fireworks, M-16 or pistols? Plus he had the power for so long..
    What was the benefit for Thailand? Can’t u see that he boycots
    the elections because he is in exile? Isn’t kind of obvious that
    he prefers the mess? To come back as the Liberator?
    ( but of course if u have any new evidence.. Except from the good ol’
    CONSPIRACY THEORY cliche please let us know..that’s all I need ..
    New evidence for this puzzle.. Once again I don’t claim to know..
    I know nothing in fact.. But I want to figure it out.. People die in front
    of our eyes..)
    ps: sex trade in Thailand is 3% of the country’s income..
    Cannot understimate that..As the activist said above if you read it, prostitution
    is widely accepted in that culture.. Now why? One reason is because the younger can
    support the elders this way.. Also very complicated phenomenon..etc.. I’m not judging..
    Actually I need answers beyond judgements.. BEYOND GOOD OR BAD..
    everytime the word “good” or “bad” comes in , science goes out of the window

  250. panos skoulidas

    Herve I repeat that I’m not a politics expert neither a thailand analyst..
    Thanks for your latest link.. Obviously most Reds don’t want corrupted Thaksin either..
    They want-need- Democracy… One thing I see in common with many similar cases is
    the corrupted politicians
    corrupted
    corrupted
    corrupted politicians.. I see a similar drama in grecolandia too..
    People don’t know Who to vote for… The one political party is more corrupted than the other…
    Very rarely things are so obvious and “easy” just like the recent Bush(McCain) vs Obama election battle..
    Yes the poor Thai people DESERVE DEMOCRACY.. unfortunately the billionaire Tahksim is not that guy nor that King either…

  251. Herve

    it was the regiment under the Queen that was in charge of the military offensive on April 10
    ————————-

    ARGHHHHH…..JENNY, JENNY JENNY!!!!! COME OOOOON!….. ;-)

    The regiment was not under the Queen. It’s called the Queen’s regiment. It’s like saying, for ex., the Arc de Triumph horse race takes place in the Champs-Elysees. I doubt they are an intervention unit and “led” the charge, too, I will research on that (spectrum, a BKK post section had an article on their role that day, humanitarian in many ways, but only a vague recollection) .

    And again, the govnmt did not back off the deal. Red Shirt leadership agreed to it, but started to make more demands. Sorry, to me, the ones I don’t trust are the Red Shirts leadership (save one, Veera Musikhapong, who urged the others to abide by their agrrement, and failed to convince them).

    When you see these demands, it’s so fucking silly, (basic thai politics tit for tat). For crissakes, the date to the elction had been set,NOV 14, there is no way the govnmt could back off it, and lose face in front of the int. community, and its own people. Thailand is not BURMA, Jenny.

    I think these guys are just too caught up in their own self-aggrandizing, having been in the media glare for weeks, with thousands of demonstrators cheering their every word, day after day. They simply have lost a sense of reality, just like that general (basically, an homophobic right-winger who needed a cause to trump old criminal charges levied against him) who thought and said there was no way a sniper could hit him. Oh yeah?…..

    I must go, I could not read all (Panos, you are crazy….), But will a bit later.

  252. panos skoulidas

    Ha ha… ( laughing at myself )…
    I would never expect that Buddhist Thais have it so easy to slap women or accept their daughter’s prostitution either.. But I know for sure that regardless the riots the European perverts will still gonna flood the Thai brothels…

  253. Herve

    Jenny :-)))

    you know we can end up in jail (if in Thailand) talking/speculating about the king and the monarchy. Maybe in the same cell….. Tell your husband!!! :-))))))

    Running….. (happy Bday again, Bob Black!)

  255. a civilian-mass audience

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY REIMAR…!!!

    where is REIMAR???
    and HERVE …yes…BOBBY’S birthday is coming up…
    where is BOBBY???

    Can I sing now???

    P.S my facebook account is under maintenance …hmmm…

  256. a civilian-mass audience

    ok…let’s start again…

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY BOBBY BLACK …
    can someone tell me what day is today???

  258. eva

    Here’s a windy Tuesday.. better than a foggy Tuesday.. or:

    yesterday was printing day, this morning it was flattening prints day, now it’s scanning day, the part I hate.. or:

    it’s irnoing day, which beats cleaning day..

  259. panos skoulidas

    “Thaksin was blasted as having exploited to buy votes, bureaucrats, policemen, military officers and even political factions. Thaksin became the example of the businessman autocrat, launching so-called populist projects which some were controversial such as the War on Drugs. Hundreds of killings and murder cases were said by the police, as the fighting among the drug traffickers. No further investigation carried on. Judicial process was seen as useless, instead, the decisive justice should be in the hands of the police.”

    I hope more corrupted politicians will follow Thaksim in England..It’s beautiful in London..Little expensive but.. if they budget right this time… and stay away from Bentleys … but I’m curious as of why Thaksim chose London! Why not Bucharest or Malta.. Fun for every budget ..
    Way cheaper..Avoid Athens though:6 euro for a cappuccino in Syntagma square..

  260. jenny lynn walker

    Panos: Well I agree with you when you say what is needed is real democracy and I know 100% for certain that all informed Red Shirt members believe that is what it’s all about and, why they are willing to die for it. The strength of feeling among protestors is remarkable, and upsetting, if you listen to their willingness to die for what they believe is ‘a movement for democracy’ – it is humbling and makes me think of all those who lived before us in our own countries who had to fight for their rights.

    Take a look back earlier on this thread, where there was some discussion on why so many are interested in the Red Shirt party and why they love Thaksin which relate to what he DID, rather than any promises being made now, for the man in the street when he was PM. But to talk about how small percentages of GDP are made just takes things off on a tangent that is, sorry to say it, irrelevant.

    The other thing is that there are many people studying Thai politics who, based on years of study, will tell you that the whole subject is incredibly complex. To get to grips with it – to go deeper – requires talking to these experts as well as all the parties involved in it. This current government is also increasingly aware of the reforms that are needed and are saying they’re working towards it – particularly since the eyes of the world are now focused on what is going on here in the Land of Smiles. There are in fact a very large number of Thai people – among the 60 plus million – who are simply getting on with their every day lives as normal and are perplexed by what’s being shown in the news.

  261. jenny lynn walker

    HERVE: I believe you are misinformed and will send you the relevant article.

  262. panos skoulidas

    hmmmmm….
    “Despite the majority and surging popularity amongst rural Thais, Thaksin came under severe questioning for selling telecommunication shares to Temasek, a Singapore investor for about 70,000 million baht without paying any tax. More complex and high-level corruption and conspiracies were discovered and exposed by Sonthi Limthongkul, Manager Media Group owner, who reached the middle class in the capital and the cities through the only small satellite and internet media channel, ASTV.

    Thaksin refused to publicly answer PAD’s questions. Because of failure to clear himself in the alleged corruptions, Thaksin’s regime fell apart during public protests led by the People’s Alliance for Democracy which led to widespread calls for his resignation and impeachment.

    The People’s Alliance for Democracy, a large group of the middle class and a coalition of anti-Thaksin protesters, led by Sonthi Limthongkul, gathered in Bangkok, demanded that Thaksin resign as prime minister so that the King could directly appoint someone else. Thaksin refused and protests continued for weeks.”

  263. panos skoulidas

    Thousands dead as a result of Thailand’s “war on drugs”
    By Susanne Ilchmann
    9 May 2003
    Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra last week announced “victory” in a vicious, anti-drug campaign, in which police were given a licence to use “extreme measures” to stamp out the selling of methamphetamines, known locally as “yaba” or “crazy medicine”.
    This three-month reign of police terror left at least 2,274 people dead. The government and police implausibly ascribed the deaths to gangland feuding, insisting that only 42 drug suspects were shot by police officers—most of those in “self-defence”. In fact, the government openly encouraged the police to carry out extra-judicial killings so that the arbitrary goals of its “war on drugs” could be met on time.
    ———————
    2.274 Killed by Thaksin’s army…
    Isn’t this guy a thug????
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/thai-m09.shtml

  264. panos skoulidas

    The THAKSIN government used a system of bribes and threats to ensure that regional governors and police chiefs carried out the campaign. Three lists were compiled: one by police; the second by local administrative organisations and village heads; and the last by the Narcotics Control Board. Officials who failed to meet their quotas faced dismissal. Those who brought in a “major drug dealer”—dead or alive—received a bounty of one million baht ($US23,600).
    But just who has been arrested or gunned down is unclear, as the allegations against those on the blacklists have not been tested in a court of law. Those whose names appeared had no way of finding out the nature of the accusations against them. Terrified of being framed up or shot dead, thousands opted to hand themselves in and submit to a course of boot-camp style rehabilitation.
    Among those killed was a nine-year-old boy who was shot dead in late February. While undercover police were arresting his father, allegedly in a sting operation, his panic-stricken mother sped off in the family vehicle with the child on board. When police caught up with the car, the woman fled. Before opening the vehicle, the police fired into it at point-blank range killing the boy.
    Thaksin has been able to exploit public hostility to illicit drugs to boost his popularity and deflect attention from the failure of his government to address unemployment, poverty and other social problems that lie at the root of drug abuse. However, the cold-blooded killing of the nine-year old boy sparked public outrage. Since then there has been growing criticism.
    A survey conducted by the Assumption University found that 84.2 percent of Bangkok residents surveyed supported the campaign. But of those same people, 65.3 percent expressed their fear that corrupt police could frame-up innocent people. The very nature of the campaign left the door wide open for those compiling the blacklists to use them to settle personal grudges or deal with business or political opponents.
    The Human Rights Commission was contacted by a number of people who said they had been wrongly included on the blacklists. Government officials called for such complaints to be directed to drug suppression officials. But as Sunai Phasuk from Forum Asia, a human rights organisation, pointed out: “Most of them [the victims] got killed on the way back from the police office. People found their name on a blacklist, went to the police, then end up dead.”

  265. panos skoulidas

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    Thousands dead as a result of Thailand’s “war on drugs”
    By Susanne Ilchmann
    9 May 2003
    Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra last week announced “victory” in a vicious, anti-drug campaign, in which police were given a licence to use “extreme measures” to stamp out the selling of methamphetamines, known locally as “yaba” or “crazy medicine”.
    This three-month reign of police terror left at least 2,274 people dead. The government and police implausibly ascribed the deaths to gangland feuding, insisting that only 42 drug suspects were shot by police officers—most of those in “self-defence”. In fact, the government openly encouraged the police to carry out extra-judicial killings so that the arbitrary goals of its “war on drugs” could be met on time.
    The Narcotics Control Board provided the indices: 1,765 people arrested as major drug dealers and another 15,244 as minor dealers. More than 280,000 “drug pushers” and “addicts” gave themselves up to authorities and were sent for rehabilitation. In all, some 15.5 million pills were confiscated and the street price for the drug doubled or trebled over the course of the three months from February 1 to April 30.
    All 75 of Thailand’s provinces reported that they had more than fulfilled their quota of reducing the number of drug dealers by 50 percent. In some cases, officials boasted of a 100 percent “success rate”—that is, all drug dealers in their province either dead or detained. Interior Minister Wan Muhammad Nor Matha claimed that 440 local officials and politicians, including two police colonels, had been dismissed because of links to drug trafficking.
    The government used a system of bribes and threats to ensure that regional governors and police chiefs carried out the campaign. Three lists were compiled: one by police; the second by local administrative organisations and village heads; and the last by the Narcotics Control Board. Officials who failed to meet their quotas faced dismissal. Those who brought in a “major drug dealer”—dead or alive—received a bounty of one million baht ($US23,600).
    But just who has been arrested or gunned down is unclear, as the allegations against those on the blacklists have not been tested in a court of law. Those whose names appeared had no way of finding out the nature of the accusations against them. Terrified of being framed up or shot dead, thousands opted to hand themselves in and submit to a course of boot-camp style rehabilitation.
    Among those killed was a nine-year-old boy who was shot dead in late February. While undercover police were arresting his father, allegedly in a sting operation, his panic-stricken mother sped off in the family vehicle with the child on board. When police caught up with the car, the woman fled. Before opening the vehicle, the police fired into it at point-blank range killing the boy.
    Thaksin has been able to exploit public hostility to illicit drugs to boost his popularity and deflect attention from the failure of his government to address unemployment, poverty and other social problems that lie at the root of drug abuse. However, the cold-blooded killing of the nine-year old boy sparked public outrage. Since then there has been growing criticism.
    A survey conducted by the Assumption University found that 84.2 percent of Bangkok residents surveyed supported the campaign. But of those same people, 65.3 percent expressed their fear that corrupt police could frame-up innocent people. The very nature of the campaign left the door wide open for those compiling the blacklists to use them to settle personal grudges or deal with business or political opponents.
    The Human Rights Commission was contacted by a number of people who said they had been wrongly included on the blacklists. Government officials called for such complaints to be directed to drug suppression officials. But as Sunai Phasuk from Forum Asia, a human rights organisation, pointed out: “Most of them [the victims] got killed on the way back from the police office. People found their name on a blacklist, went to the police, then end up dead.”
    Growing criticisms

    The Thai media and civil rights activists have been critical of the government’s flagrant disregard for democratic rights and its threadbare justifications for the killings. “If the police weren’t involved, why hasn’t one murderer been arrested?” asked human rights lawyer Somchai Homlaor. “The only sensible conclusion is the police are sending out death squads.”
    Thepchai Yong, editor of the Nation, told the Australian TV program Dateline: “Nobody’s buying that [the government’s] line because we believe that the authorities, the police in particular, were involved in many of the killings. So if what the Interior Minister claims is true, that the killings were the result of a double crossing, or killings among drug dealers themselves, it means drug dealers are in control of the country.”
    Forum Asia said that the government was encouraging police to “simply execute alleged offenders… This makes it increasingly easy for the police and other authorities to simply do away with anyone they don’t like.” The group issued a statement in late February calling for “immediate investigations into the shootings, in which some [victims] were handcuffed when killed or shot in a group. There were at least three cases which experts were able to examine and they found that the suspects had had drugs planted on them after death, and that bullets had been removed before coroners examined the bodies.”
    Others have pointed out that the round-up or killing of large numbers of drug addicts or petty pushers will do nothing to halt drug trafficking as those who control the trade have connections in the highest quarters, including the police and military.
    Former national police chief Pol Gen Sawat Amornwiwat declared in January that “senior state officials and politicians” were “in cahoots with drug traffickers” and that a list prepared by the Drugs Enforcement Agency in 1992 included the name of a senior Thai politician. “The main obstacle is that influential people provide support for drug traffickers and make fantastic amounts of money,” he said.
    Attempts were made to silence the critics. In early March, Dr Pradit Chareonthaitawee, Thailand’s National Human Rights Commissioner, received anonymous death threats, warning him to stop taking his concerns to the United Nations. Shortly afterwards, Suranand Vejjajiva, a spokesman for the ruling Thai Rak Thai Party, threatened to impeach the commissioner for speaking to the UN about the government’s blacklists, extra-judicial killings and failure to prosecute cases involving drug-related murders.
    Opposition politicians warned that the “war on drugs” could lead to international censure over human rights violations and frighten off foreign investors. The prime minister, however, arrogantly dismissed such concerns. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights was forced to cancel a proposed visit by a special envoy, when the government refused to cooperate.
    Responding to a Senate proposal to hold an inquiry into police practices, Thaksin advised the body to ignore “the thinking of foreigners,” adding: “It is not necessary for Thailand to make any explanation to the UN. We are a sovereign country. If any country wants to cut aid because of what were are doing, frankly speaking, I don’t really care.”
    Following criticisms in the US Congress, the government reacted similarly this week to suggestions that the US might cut off financial aid and technical assistance to the Thai armed forces. Confident that he enjoys the support of Washington, Thaksin declared: “We have explained this [war on drugs] to the US ambassador and the US administration understands it very well.”
    Thaksin, one of the country’s wealthiest businessmen, has close connections to the country’s security forces. He made much of his vast fortune through monopoly rights and state contracts granted by former military regimes.
    Thaksin and his Thai Rak Thai Party won the 2001 election campaign by exploiting the widespread public hostility to the impact of the IMF restructuring agenda being implemented by his predecessor Chuan Leekpai. He campaigned on a populist program that offered handouts to rural villages and debt relief to farmers while at the same time pledging to bail out failing Thai businesses.
    But the government has no solutions to the huge social problems that afflict the lives of the majority of Thais. Through its “war on drugs,” the government is preparing for further attacks on democratic rights, which will, in the future, be directed against its political opponents.
    The government has already foreshadowed a crackdown on drug-related finances. A new law retrospective to February 1 is to be introduced to reward governors with 30 percent of the value of any drug-related assets that are seized. Another 15 percent will be set aside for successful detectives and for anyone providing tip-offs.
    The Office of Narcotics Control Board, National Police Office and Interior Ministry plan to establish a nationwide database of dealers and addicts. Provincial government will be asked to establish special investigative offices and the Anti-Money Laundering Office will be given increased powers to tap phone lines.

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/thai-m09.shtml

    all this info from 2003…
    I think it’s about time for Thaksim guy to leave not only the REDS but also the rest of Thailand alone…
    I suggest.. Stay in London ..he is well covered there..:(

  266. jenny lynn walker

    Panos: How about doing a similar investigation into the Yellow party as well? It would be great if you share the sources of the information you are sharing in quotes ” ” then we know who you are quoting and where the information comes from. Are you planning on doing a story on Thailand and coming to Bangkok or just bored?

  267. bob black

    BROTHER PANOS….FATHER CIVI

    AND THE REST OF Y’ALL, MY BIG BIG FAMILY! :))))))))))

    THANKS SO MUCH….

    THIS WILL BE THE SHORTEST NOTE I WRITE (no time)

    to paraphrase Civi:

    I LOVE YOU ALL

    HUGS
    RUNNING
    B

  268. panos skoulidas

    U see Jenny that Thaksim’s murders speak louder than his constant tax evasion..and many economic scandals..
    Question is how much $$ he generated under that “war on drugs”? Because it seems that this ruthless guy only “lost” 1.4bn$ from the latest regime… Ahhh..that’s nothing..
    If only the dead could come back and talk..

  273. a civilian-mass audience

    ok…I composed…:

    REIMAR,REIMAR
    you are a brave man
    with your optimism
    we found hope
    when the soul is clean
    we can all …proceed…
    HAPPY LIFE

    BOBBY,BOBBY
    you are a brain man…
    with your heart
    with your posts
    we feel proud
    to ride along
    HAPPY LIFE

    hiihiii…………….I composed…:)))

    LOVE PEACE and PHOTOGRAPHY…
    yes,BOBBY…LOVE YOU ALL…MARINA and DIMAS…Enjoy the BOB=BeautyOfBOB…
    oime

  275. a civilian-mass audience

    PANOS…you are next in my Birthday list…
    I will compose for you too…

    keep it rocking…tell it as it is or it isn’t…

    EVA…I don’t have ANTON’S copy yet in my hands…
    I will e-mail soonest …too many Birthdays…I got to compose…:)))

  276. panos skoulidas

    You see Jenny every time I see people protesting and dying for a cause I’m instantly with them..
    It’s easy to love the protester and easier to hate the police..
    Now when my (still) ignorant watching all those dead Reds I immeadiately identified with them..
    But I hate letting myself being manipulated..emotionally at least.. So questions arrived in my poor ignorant brain.. Why this.. Why that! I always wondered why I can’t visit Thailand and not be able to smoke a fatty (joint) while the old guy next room has 5 twelve year olds in his bed for the price of a hamburger and goes away unpunished ..
    So I started from the head… In Greece they say that for the fish that goes bad always check the head first.. Hmmm , the Head.. The Leader(s)…
    Now since i support any protesters by enstict ( the Red Shirts in this occasion ) I thought that I needed to find as much as I can about their leader…and I got shocked..but hopefully that Thaksin guy is no longer their leader.. Then more power to the Reds…

  277. jenny lynn walker

    May the violence stop in Bangkok.

    This from Amnesty International calling for military to stop using lethal force (today):

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/thai-military-must-halt-reckless-use-lethal-force-2010-05-18

    This from Amnesty International calling for military to stop using lethal force (yesterday):

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/thailand-military-must-halt-reckless-use-lethal-force-2010-05-17

    And this:

    http://www.amnesty.or.th/main/SubLibrary.asp?id=293&type=2&action=1

    Similar requests also made by Human Rights Watch.

  280. eva

    Every time I complain over the phone with my mother about our dear Mr. President (Berlusconi that is) she tells me: every nation has the government it deserves..

  281. panos skoulidas

    That’s what I hope too Jenny…
    I would die too for a cause but I wouldn’t do it just to install another asshole on top of my people..
    I’m against any uniform but we all have to watch out who will we bring next to power..
    I hope that the Red Shirt riots will eventually force the above to accept democracy..
    If not..so much blood already wasted..

  282. a civilian-mass audience

    JENNY,
    oime…I saw some photos…are you painting Bangkok red…???
    may the spirits of safety …be with you…

    EVA,
    yeap, your mom sounds like a civilian…

    ok…I am gonna start reading PANOS posts…
    I will be back tomorrow:)))

    I messed Up…REIMAR’S birthday is on Thursday…

  285. panos skoulidas

    Not all Americans deserved Bush…and not all Iraqis deserved that Saddam dictator.. It’s usually the upper cast, that 1% that decides..
    No real democracy as the Ancient Greeks practised it..We need to “reinvent” democracy…

  287. jenny lynn walker

    EVA: Does she means the people asked for it, voted for it, followed it and/or put up with it? Say hi to your Mom from me! : )

  288. Pingback: OpEd: How Much Is That Photograph Worth On The Web? | la pura vida

  289. eva

    Panos, Jenny..I think it’s true.. ’cause people (not all, but some, a lot in many cases) are simply lazy and don’t think ahead of their noses, all is fine as long as they’re fine. Better not question too much, or it could be that you must give up some of your advantages for the greater good, for your neighbour..

    Mussolini (as Hitler did) brought work in a moment of crises (well before WWII started), which was a good thing.. but what was the price? Whenever too much power (money) is concentrated within a too small circle it gets dangerous, even more so if the same circle stays in power for a long number of years.

    Change can come only from within, it’s the people like you and me that have to take consciousness of what happens around, and most importantly of the WHY this happens. The upper 1% decides, yes, the upper 1% also decides how ignorant the masses have to be, power, money and very often religion, go hand in hand, it’s difficult, but still, it’s the little wo/man that has the power to change things.

    Civi, she is indeed.. smart little lady :)

  290. panos skoulidas

    Eva…I liked that wo/man thing.. I’ll use it..
    Now about the manipulation of the mass? It’s easier to convince three people instead of one..
    All politicians know that.. The Mass is blind..

  291. a civilian-mass audience

    Happiness Comes With Age, Study Reveals…
    …Life looks a little rosier after 50, a new study finds. Older people in their mid- to late-50s are generally happier, and experience less stress and worry than young adults in their 20s, the researchers say……

    don’t ask me …how old I am …BUT I am happy…Am I ???

  292. a civilian-mass audience

    the MASS is blind…

    I am going out …to compose…
    and I am full of silents…
    the mass is blind…
    oime…

    VIVA TO EVA’S MAMA…VIVA !!!

  293. eva

    “Never in my life I thought I would see the police dismantling a barricade just built being cheered by the same people who put it on, standing cheerfully around.”

    This is from a link John Vink posted earlier:

    http://sopranz.blogspot.com/

    Panos: “It’s easier to convince three people instead of one..” right on, if you are alone you must use your own brain cells, nobody can think for you..

    Civi.. where do the grumpy by nature fit into that study?..

  294. panos skoulidas

    Happiness Comes With Age, Study Reveals…
    —————————————-
    civi you got it all messed up…

    people age 65 and older accounted for 16 percent of suicide deaths in 2004.
    14.3 of every 100,000 people age 65 and older died by suicide in 2004, higher than the rate of about 11 per 100,000 in the general population.
    Non-Hispanic white men age 85 and older were most likely to die by suicide. They had a rate of 49.8 suicide deaths per 100,000 persons in that age group.

    For every 100,000 people age 65 and older in each of the ethnic/racial groups below, the following number died by suicide in 2004:

    Non-Hispanic Whites — 15.8 per 100,000
    Asian and Pacific Islanders — 10.6 per 100,000
    Hispanics — 7.9 per 100,000
    Non-Hispanic Blacks — 5.0 per 100,000

    Ask yourself…

    …if you feel:

    nervous
    empty
    worthless
    that you don’t enjoy things you used to
    restless
    irritable
    unloved
    that life isn’t worth living
    …or if you are:

    sleeping more or less than usual
    eating more or less than usual
    These may be symptoms of depression, a treatable illness. Talk to your doctor.

    Other symptoms that may signal depression, but may also be signs of other serious illnesses, should be checked by a doctor, whatever the cause. They include:

    being very tired and sluggish
    frequent headaches
    frequent stomachaches
    chronic pain
    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/older-adults-depression-and-suicide-facts-fact-sheet/index.shtml

  298. panos skoulidas

    Elderly people have a higher risk of completed suicide than any other age group worldwide. Despite this, suicide in elderly people receives relatively little attention, with public health measures, medical research, and media attention focusing on younger age groups.

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/329/7471/895

    u see, civi..wishes and good intentions and blah blah dont really help…accepting the truth , seeing the real problem is a step to prevention and help..”suicide in elderly people receives relatively little attention”…

  300. a civilian-mass audience

    … older people are better at controlling their emotions than younger people. Or it might have something to do with nostalgia, the idea that older people remember fewer negative memories and so are happier…

  301. a civilian-mass audience

    … older people might focus less on what they have or have not achieved, and more on how to get the most out of the rest of their lives…

  302. a civilian-mass audience

    “…wishes and good intentions and blah blah dont really help…accepting the truth , seeing the real problem is a step to prevention and help..”

    suicide in elderly people receives relatively little attention”…
    PANOS…an that be your calling???…just a suggestion…
    …when you have time…take some other BURNIANS and come to find me …
    I am safe and blind somewhere…lost in Grecolandia

    it’s night…my chickens are waiting…Eleonora, Agathoklis…Athena,…more ladies…
    LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

  303. eva

    Panos, I don’t know, I mean I have no statistics at hand, nor studies or such, but my guess is that America is not Greece is not Korea is not Ghana is not Peru is not NZ etc. .. ‘sides that, Civi has to wait for a looooong looong time.. s/he knows why, deal is deal :)

  304. Brian Frank

    Way off topic here:

    Anyone know which format buying music give the greatest amount to the musicians? iTunes? Physical CD? Amazon music?

  305. panos skoulidas

    Ahh Eva.. I know (and I’m sure Akaky will agree with me) I’m a pessimist..
    That’s why unfounded over optimism gets on my nerves.. The only thing you can achieve by telling people “everything is Fine, stay in your couch” is numb them and isolate them.. I know that very well.. my mother and my family does that systematically…ahh life sucks..

  306. Sidney Atkins

    Today is Bob Black’s birthday??? The same as one of my ex-wives… this helps explain a lot…

  307. a civilian-mass audience

    yeap…I get your point PANOS…
    …unfounded over optimism…
    you are a real ZORBAS…a photophilosopher
    you are “build” with a “night” vision
    but I am a civilian…a mass…
    I am hiding behind my naive optimism …
    cause the governments took away my money
    the families took away my pride
    the husbands and wives took away my innocence
    the so called friends took away my dreams
    …………..
    and here I am …I found an open window…
    I saw some light and I jumped in
    I am safe and blind
    nobody can take away my optimism …and my chickens…:)))

    P.S Back to the trees and dreams…

  308. a civilian-mass audience

    welcome back SIDNEY…you have been missed…

    AKAKY…305 …just for the record…

    WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!

  309. panos skoulidas

    Hey kids, time to cheer up here some fun quotes to entertain all the optimists (and not so) out there:

    “The thought of suicide is a powerful solace: by means of it one gets through many a bad night”
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    “I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you”
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    have done that,” says my memory. “I cannot have done that” — says my pride, and remains adamant. At last — memory yields.”
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    “The real reason for not committing suicide is because you always know how swell life gets again after the hell is over”
    Ernest Hemingway

    “Suicide is man’s way of telling God, “You can’t fire me – I quit.””
    Bill Maher

    “Suicide is the punctuation mark at the end of many artistic careers”
    Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

  310. panos skoulidas

    Ahhh…those Ancient Greeks again…

    From time immemorial, suicidal feelings and hopelessness have been considered part of ageing and understandable in the context of being elderly and having physical disabilities. The Ancient Greeks tolerated these attitudes in the extreme and gave elderly people the option of assisted suicide if they could plead convincingly that they had no useful role in society.

  312. panos skoulidas

    …the “inspiration” came from an article i read yesterday about the recent economic crisis in greece and the rise of suicide attempts .The only way to figure this out is to simply wait..Some speculate the rise of drug use which makes sense but higher suicide rates? i have no idea..we will see…The article is not translated so i cant share it but it compares the new situation in greece (IMF recent loan) with the Great Depression of the 30ies…When desperate people used to jump out of buildings because they couldnt repay their debts..
    (some facts about the Great Depression below):
    http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/great-depression.htm

  314. panos skoulidas

    BREAKING NEWS…..CONGRATULATIONS LANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    EXHIBITION
    Lance Rosenfield “Thirst for Grit”
    May 25-July 3 @ L. Nowlin Gallery
    Opening Reception June 5th, 6-8pm
    First Thursdays: June 3rd & July 1st, 6-8pm
    Preview Show

    “I have traveled many hot and dusty miles crisscrossing this oft-lonely expanse, following
    the itinerant ways of these men who live a life of legend and little. They share a special
    bond, a camaraderie with one another that seems to center on respect, loyalty and
    toughness.” – Lance Rosenfield

    L. Nowlin Gallery // 1202 w. 6th st. Austin, TX 78703 // 512.626.9301 // http://www.lnowlingallery.com

  318. panos skoulidas

    BREAKING NEWS ONCE AGAIN:

    Jean-Luc Godard cancels his much anticipated appearance to Cannes following problems of “Greek type”.
    He said:

    “I will go until death with the Festival but I will not be taking a single step further. Following Greek type problems, I cannot be the person you require.”

    In an interview he also said, “When Greece is in crisis, I do not go to festivities”

    “Greece is burning and Cannes is in its own planet”. This is the deeper meaning in the brief statement published in yesterday’s «Liberation».

    The newspaper’s art editorial is illustrative and hard. Some wrote that Godard refuses to squeeze between Ferraris, sunburned bimbos and guys who smoke cigars. He refuses to become the showcase of this festival!

    In another interview in the magazine «Les Inrockuptibles” he said: “Philosophy, Democracy, tragedy. All emerged from Greece. Do you forget what is the relationship between Philosophy and Tragedy? Without Sophocles there would be no Pericles. Without Pericles there would be no Sophocles.”

    Just for the record, Sophocles wrote “Antigone”, THE PLAY.

    You do not need any special scenic set, no background, no fancy or special clothes, no makeup, just good actors.

    The play talks straight to the heart..

    Godard has also said: “Cinema is not necessarily to be found in films.”

    That reminds me of Charles Baudelaire. Very few people know it but Baudelaire was the poet prophet of the cinema:

    “We want to travel without steam or sail.

    Propel your memories with their window horizon,

    Illuminating the boredom of our prisons

    Across the taut screen of our minds”

    But all this has nothing to do with show business and Cannes Festival..maybe this is why I do not like spectacles and why Godard refuses to “go further”…

    (yes mr. Godard, exactly..thank you…The whole world owes grrece trillions in copyrights but instead they send greece to the lions (IMF)…
    Once again shame on all european governments …

  319. panos skoulidas

    he he..i didnt open the Pandoras box Imants..;) GODARD did…and he is French you know..

    “Due to problems the Greeks would be familiar with, I unfortunately cannot be at your disposal in Cannes,” Godard said, in a statement in French newspaper Liberation today (as translated from French by indieWIRE). “I’d walk to the ends of the earth for the festival,” he added, “But alas I will not be taking a single step further. Sincerely, Jean-Luc Godard.”

    In its original French, the statement read: “Suite à des problèmes de type Grec, je ne pourrai être votre obligé à Cannes.“Avec le festival, j’irai jusqu’à la mort, mais je ne ferai pas un pas de plus. Amicalement. Jean-Luc Godard.”

    Godard’s latest, “Film Socialisme,” is a 100-minute experimental assemblage of video images, sounds and text, following a loose narrative and incorporating archival footage that begins on a cruise ship. While rocker Patti Smith, strumming a guitar, makes a cameo appearance in part one of the three part movie, the film primarily follows on a group of young people who are armed with a camera and incorporates separate imagery from six locations, including Egypt, Palestine, Odessa, Hellas, Naples and Barcelona.
    A four-minute teaser trailer for the film features fast forwarded footage from the film, giving viewers a sense of what to expect. “Film Socialisme” is also being made available via VOD here in France this week concurrent with the movie’s debut at the festival.

  320. panos skoulidas

    Jean-Luc Godard’s latest and maybe LAST film “Socialism”

    To add fuel to the fire, the English subtitles of “Film Socialism” do not perform their normal duties: Rather than translating the dialogue, they’re works of art in themselves, truncating or abstracting what’s spoken onscreen into the helmer’s infamous word assemblies (for example, “Do you want my opinion?” becomes “Aids Tools,” while a discussion about history and race is transformed into “German Jew Black”).

  321. Imants

    Poor bloody “Grieks”…….. lets create a tragedy, hey it worked last time the whole world loved us because we are the cultural heritage………… not this time buddy you guys are full of shit!!! ……………like the messages our Greek community gets here from the relatives in Greece: help us we are poor give us your money!!!!!!!!

  322. bob black

    CIVI :)))))

    “The amount of happiness that you have depends on the amount of freedom you have in your heart.”–Thich Nhat Hanh:

    BROTHER PANOS ! :))))))))

    i saw that today….my bud Jean-Luc! :))))))…he got that right! :)))))

    “To be or not to be. That’s not really a question.”-Jean-Luc Godard

    SIDNeY! :)))

    ok, ok, ok, le’t be honest for once, it’s Burn, already:

    I AM your ex-wife ;))))))))))))))))))

    hugs/love

    running to blow out candles…

    b

    P.S. GO LANCE GO LANCE GO LANCE GO LANCE….will write you tomorrow…no time today!

  323. panos skoulidas

    “The amount of happiness that you have depends on the amount of freedom you have in your heart.”–Thich Nhat Hanh:

    that makes me wanna light another cigarette but smoke it in a more relaxing way this time…hmm, thanks Bob thats good food for thought….:)

  324. panos skoulidas

    help us we are poor give us your money!!!!!!!!
    ——————————————
    ha..u made me laugh…”your money”…go tell this to any bank…you need a $1.2 to buy $1 …
    “your” money, “my” money…Americas money, Chinas money, IMF money…ha ha ..it all belongs to the bank buddy..you wanna think its yours…Its their $$

  325. Imants

    Doesn’t matter people a here are pissed off with the “old Greek tragedy” the difference is that our banks though as spitefull as the rest are not up shit creek without a paddle

  328. Imants

    we don’t retire at 50 odd as you lot did and we work longer hours…….. lazy sods you lot are hmmn, the EU would have been better to dig a ditch around you lot and cast you adrift so you can be in exile with the rest of your ex leaders who have your cash

  330. panos skoulidas

    apply?…ha ..i was about to and then i realized that:

    Sex ratio:

    at birth: 1.06 male(s)/female
    under 15 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
    15-64 years: 1.03 male(s)/female
    65 years and over: 0.84 male(s)/female
    total population: 1 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

    not enough women there..so forget it…im sure u dont need more men over there…;)

  332. Imants

    Don’t worry about that Panos we have a very active gay community here so the stats don’t tell the full story………. we will even offer you a choice.

  338. panos skoulidas

    Brian Frank
    May 18, 2010 at 4:05 pm
    Way off topic here:

    Anyone know which format buying music give the greatest amount to the musicians? iTunes? Physical CD? Amazon music?

    ————————–
    it depends of the deal…for big label guys=CD

  342. Herve

    “Suicide is man’s way of telling God, “You can’t fire me – I quit.””
    Bill Maher

    Funny, yesterday I read this one:

    “Suicide is the most beautiful gift God gave man.” – Pliny the Elder.

    Go figure……

  343. Herve

    HERVE: I believe you are misinformed
    ————————

    Jenny, It’ s just a matter of following the chronology of events and communiques from both sides as they happened.

    Also, the thai govnmt always stayed vague on who were the terrorists, never heard at least that they said Red shirts had to be the terrorists. It’s a mainstay of thai politics, talk, talk, but without precisely pointing fingers or naming people, so you can retract yourself, and form new alliances between old enemies.

    By the way, does anyone know which party/government in Thailand has US-backing or which government in Thailand is favoured by the current US administration?
    —————————————
    Makes no difference. Thailand, whatever the govnmt, is always a close strategic ally of the States.

    Are you aware of how media control has grown under this government – everybody knows this
    —————————————–
    you must be kidding, Jenny. It’s only 2 or 3 weeks ago, that the red TV channel was taken off the air (emergency decree, not policy). For 2 months, I heard the night guard in my condo listen all night long to the Reds speeches in BKK. Some “personalities” eventually had their internet sites blccked (Seh Daeng, Thaksin), but they are not “the media”.

    One of the main grievances against Thaksin (there were huge demonstrations against him in 2006. I was there, it was not just society ladies with 2000$ GUCCI bags, and fair-skinned middle-class thais) was his autocratic style, especially in matter of media control. Let’s agree It’s a dead-head between the 2 sides on that matter.

    Link on the Queen’s guard. My recollection was indeed vague, but still not “under” the Queen, no more than the KING’s entertainment complexes in Patpong are managed by the King of Thailand :-). Just a regalian label for both, with a little more honor to the Guard!

    http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/36352/queen-guard-shocked-over-april-10-attacks

  344. Herve

    there are many people studying Thai politics who, based on years of study, will tell you that the whole subject is incredibly complex
    ———————————

    In that case, let’s stop saying it’s about poor farmers against rich elite. Glad you came on my side finally, Jenny ;-).

  346. a civilian-mass audience

    …LAURA …bad Italian translation…
    Nope…he can’t be dead… I am sending some energy …out there
    I am an optimist after all…

    “BANGKOK – An Italian photographer was killed to Bangkok during the military campaign that led to the revenue of the red shirts. Fabio Polenghi 1, free throws, 45 years, was hit to the thorax and to the abdomen while it is found in the zone of Saladeng, about a kilometer from the center of the field of the opponents. To identify it was it a friend, from the images transmitted from the tv: in our short film compatriot came transported in hospital, put on a bulletproof jacket and a helmet that to a certain point was removed him and to this point the woman recognized it. The friend told that Polenghi had arrived in Thailand three months does, for account of an European magazine, and that in this make sentences three times from the Country for work was gone out. It had spoken him last night: “It told me that he was well and that he was all ok”, it added. Polenghi was single and lived in Milan.”

  347. a civilian-mass audience

    BRANO,BRAVO LANCE !!!

    and GLENN…I want to walk on DIAMANTINA road…
    I can smell it…:)))

    “The comic and the tragic lie inseparably close, like light and shadow.”
    Socrates (Ancient Greek Philosopher, 470 BC-399 BC)
    IMANTS…you are a young soul…BUT …you like it or not…in the end we are all the same…
    full of sheets:)))

    EVA…deal is deal…I can wait my BURN LADY

    BOBBY BLACK thank you for all your support…
    OXEN of the SUN…may HELIOS…be with you in your journey…

    Come on BURNIANS…what are you shooting…!!!???

  349. Laura Montanari

    Thank’s for the translation Civi.
    There were no News in english, when I wrote. I never use automatic translator (may be I should do it).
    I’m afraid it’s confirmed. There is a video of the other photographers helping him

  353. panos skoulidas

    DO NOT OPEN PHOTO IF WEAK STOMACH…

    BANGKOK, THAILAND – MAY 19: (EDITORS NOTE: GRAPHIC CONTENT) Thai security forces attempt to help a Thai soldier hit by a grenade on May 19, 2010 in Bangkok, Thailand. At least 5 people are reported to have died as government forces attempted to overrun barricades raised in and around the city centre by anti-government protestors. Red-shirt leaders have now surrendered, ending their blockade following a sixth day of violence, leaving the army in control and a night time curfew to be imposed.

    http://www.daylife.com/photo/0c3r5GnbmV2Bk?q=bangkok

  354. panos skoulidas

    Among the #Bangkok casualties today: Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi (killed), Dutch freelancer Michael Maas & Thai photog (wounded).
    about 1 hour ago via Power Twitter

  355. a civilian-mass audience

    PANOS, you might be right…after all …
    for how long can someone …stay safe and blind…hmmm…

    I am going out to regroup…

    P.S THOMAS, get out of Athens…the soonest…tomorrow, there will be no center of the city…
    another big strike…oime…

  356. panos skoulidas

    Interview with Martin Parr – Conducted by Maarten Dings and Joachim Naudts, members of RE: for Extra, the magazine of the Fotomuseum of Antwerp, Belgium

    By Maarten Dings and Joachim Naudts

    On the 25th of October of last year, Magnum photographer Martin Parr was a guest at the Profiles event at the Antwerp FotoMuseum. He gave a reading and participated afterwards in a roundtable on the ‘Photographic Magazine as Medium.’ FotoMuseum extra Magazine had the chance to talk to him earlier that day.

    Just like his work as a photographer, Parr’s work as a curator and editor stands out thanks to his unconventional take on the medium. He cultivates his role as an outsider but does not shy away from commercial interests. In 2005 for instance, he made a series of photos for Sony Ericsson with the camera function of a cell phone, while recently surprising friend and foe by acting as a judge on Picture This, a show in search of photographic talent on British commercial tv station Channel 4.

    As a photographer, Martin Parr is more than happy to keep his distance from the pompous, academic approach to photography. But whereas his own visual work is quite often tongue in cheek, he provides a much more nuanced perspective as curator and editor. Martin Parr seems to be on a mission. He puts all his weight behind photography in general by making it more accessible to a wider public. According to Parr, it is in this light that his participation in Idols for Photographers should be viewed. He gave in because he maintains that “the photographer’s art isn’t valued in Britain in the same way it is abroad.” In Parr’s own words, photography should crawl out of its ghetto and explore the limits of the medium.

    Extra: As a documentary photographer, you don’t seem reluctant to get involved in the commercial scene.

    Martin Parr: No, not at all, photography is a commercial activity. Even high art photography wants to be commercial, because everyone wants to sell prints. I mean, the wealthiest photographer in the world is probably no longer fashion photographer Steven Meisel, but Andreas Gursky, who is at the top end of the art market. So it is interesting that the art market, financially often regarded as the poor cousin of commerce, is now way ahead of the commercial fashion industry. You can ask any photographer what he or she wants and they’ll probably answer: I want to do my own work, I want to sell my work as prints. Ultimately that is a commercial goal. So we’ll never be far away from the notion of commerce.

    Extra: But don’t you think you can react to this dominance of the economic in the arts by rejecting it?

    Martin Parr: I don’t see why you would want to reject it. Commerce makes things happen. One doesn’t want to be in the publicly subsidized ghetto, speaking to one percent of the population. Photography has the ability to be democratic, promiscuous and easy to digest. If you get out of the ghetto you have to get involved with the commercial end. With fashion people, advertising, posters, billboards. These are of course also ghettos. It’s just a bigger ghetto. You could say that visual culture is a ghetto, but that we’re surrounded by it. If you live in the western world nobody is exempt from that. Whether it’s advertising or family snapshots, we are surrounded by images. Everyone is a photographer now, remember. That’s the great thing about photography. Its audience should be growing all the time and as soon as people start using photography, why not apply some intelligence to it.

    Extra: A lot of these ‘image flows’ are clichés or, a word you often use, propaganda. Can you explain what you mean by that?

    Martin Parr: Most of the images we see are a form of propaganda because they have an agenda. Although all photography has an agenda, photography in the advertising and commercial world in particular is only good for selling an image. Or in case of a family snapshot, it is to sell the notion of the perfect family. I am not saying that independent photographers don’t have an agenda, because they certainly do: you can send two photographers to the same city and they would come up with entirely different pictures. One a very positive, one a very negative.

    Extra: So do you think it’s important that independent photographers go through this fashion or advertising area, because it could give them a different point of view?

    Martin Parr: No, I am not telling people what to do. But when I look around I feel it is all too safe and predictable. And part of the fun and enjoyment of photography is the ability to push ideas and boundaries. Most people are quite comfortable in their little niche, and do not play with boundaries. Good for them, but I think a photographic community should have more ambition. It’s our job, if you like, to make photography more accessible and to expand the audience. And the audience is there. Photo sharing sites on the Internet for instance have millions of subscribers who want to approach photography differently. Flickr is only two or three years old and, in the uk, two million people have subscribed and are discussing their work in an intelligent way. That’s quite an achievement. So, the potential audience – I don’t know how big Flickr is in Belgium for instance – is huge. What’s more, nowadays everyone has a camera on their phone, so everyone is a photographer. That is why photography is in such a healthy state, because more and more people are joining in and are becoming fascinated with photography.

    Extra: Do you consider these changes in photography today as the beginning of a new medium?

    Martin Parr: No, it’s all the same. Photography’s central role is to be the absolute medium of the day. It is fantastic that there is no longer any technical intimidation. When I first started learning how to take photographs, you had to spend the first six months figuring out what an f-stop was. Now you just go and take pictures. Nobody thinks about technical issues anymore because cameras or camera phones take care of that automatically. On the other hand, you still have the option of controlling every technical aspect. It’s the most accessible, democratic medium available in the world. This has to be celebrated, and we must continually remind photographers of this.

    Extra: Speaking of digitalization, behind the backdrop of the Internet and the way photography is currently undergoing such profound changes, it struck me that, at a time when the image is becoming increasingly nonmaterial, you focus on the photo book, i.e. the photo in its printed form. Is that a kind of reaction to this new, immaterial character of photography?

    Martin Parr: No, they are only slightly separate as today everyone can print a book with the help of new technologies. It is truly amazing: for forty Euros you can send your pictures to a company and they’ll send you back a book. Isn’t that fantastic? I love and collect photo books and I’ve been trying to compose their history, because their position has always been somewhat underrepresented in the history of photography while I think they are essential to its contemporary practice. With The Photobook: A History, I tried to redress that and I think the book succeeded to a certain extent. Although there are more books published now than ever before, the problem is that they tend to stay inside this photo ghetto. It is possible yet extremely difficult to find books that have a wider appeal, so in that regard it is very encouraging to see that Stephan Vanfleteren’s book Belgium has gained a wider audience. He has touched a nerve, and although he presents a very nostalgic view of Belgium that I don’t particularly like, it is great to see that his book is able to draw a crowd. I applaud him for making photography more accessible and it are these rare moments of triumph that show you that photography books need not indulge in high art. There is a slight contradiction in what I am saying here. I’m asking photography to get out of its ghetto, but at the same time I’m professing my love for the photo book, which is entrenched in that ghetto. But I am very happy to be a hypocrite (laughs).

    Extra: Which photo books do you consider to be your personal favourites then?

    Martin Parr: I would like to mention two books. To my mind, the most influential and radical photo book published in the last century was William Klein’s New York. Unlike Robert Frank’s equally influential The Americans, Klein succeeded in changing the way photographers created books. His radical approach to design, his ability to capture energy and dynamism in his photography, all the effects of his work rippled across the world; you could see it in Argentina, in Portugal, all the way to Japan. During the sixties and seventies, while Europe stuck to the conventions of the photo book – with two white pages and a picture on the right, such a hallow, respectfully beautiful format – Japan was throwing out those rules. Japanese photographers adopted Klein’s spirit and used it to change the way of presenting books entirely. Daido Moriyama’s Bye Bye Photography for example was as radical as Klein’s New York because he tried to tear up the rules of conventional photography. He threw away his negatives, he scratched them and made this energetic book, which took Klein’s idea one step further. So Bye Bye Photography is probably my favourite photo book. But we should always keep in mind how radical Klein’s book was in 1956, and how radical it still is today. It forever changed the way photographers make books.

    Extra: There is another way in which you seem to turn to the past. You have worked with image archives, like the Lotz ghetto album or the Ed van der Elsken archive, found images and traditional genres like the self-portrait in commercial studios. In other words, in this digital era you are focusing on the photographic tradition and its specificity.

    Martin Parr: I always look back to work from the past because I feel its contributions have been overlooked. By virtue of this platform I have, I feel it’s my duty to help promote neglected bodies of work. The history of photography is very subjective, and it is also, if you look at Beaumont Newhall for instance, very rigid. It just needs a bit of lightening up because certain people had a very narrow view on what photography should be. Today, we all acknowledge the contribution of things like vernacular photography which has become mainstream over the past twenty years. Previously, just like with colour photography for instance, it had just been sidelined. So we constantly have to reinvent and revise the past because there is no such thing as a ‘true’ history of photography. So when looking back at the past, I am just taking part in that ongoing process. Of course, my fascination with the past has as much to do with promoting upcoming photographers.

    Common Sense/Benidorm (price tag), 1997

    Extra: Do you think that your different positions in the field enrich each other?

    Martin Parr: Yes, they feed off each other. It used to anger me that a lot of photography curators are so lazy, and just wait for things to be handed out on a plate: they hardly travel, they aren’t restless, they aren’t on the lookout for the new. Then it struck me: why not curate myself? That’s how I started. Like all the other projects I’ve done I just think: well, if I don’t do it, no one will. The same holds for curating: I have to do it, because if I don’t, things will not get a platform or receive the oxygen they need.

    Extra: So you see curating also as a way of communicating?

    Martin Parr: Yes, it’s like filling a gap. You look at what’s going on and you suddenly realize it is insane that this or that has received no attention. For example, I did a show this summer called Colour Before Color for a New York gallery, with ‘colour,’ in the British, hence European spelling, and ‘color,’ reflecting the us spelling. The exhibition examined European colour practice during the seventies, which had been largely ignored. The history of photography always taught us that American photographers such as William Eggleston, Stephen Shore and their generation pioneered colour photography. So my theory was simply to look at things in Europe and to focus on six European photographers who were also working in colour during the seventies. But because they worked in isolation and had no institutional support, they were largely ignored. So I formulated a counter argument to what is now accepted as received truth.

    Of course I am not trivializing the developments in America during the seventies with the MOMA show and William Eggleston’s efforts, but this is not the full story. It’s much more complicated than that. So part of my idea behind this is to single out anomalies and make a small contribution in correcting them.

    Extra: You will also be curating a show at the New York Photo Festival. Can you tell us a bit more about it?

    Martin Parr: The exhibition is entitled New Typologies. The working title was ConDoc, which stands for ‘Conceptual Documentary.’ To me, it seems to be one of the emerging genres. Some of it is typology, some is not. We live in a chaotic world and the rigour of the analysis that conceptual documentary brings can help make sense of the chaos of the modern world.

    Extra: Like Hilla and Bernd Becher’s work for example?

    Martin Parr: Yes, of course. They have been very influential in steering European photography more towards this dry way of looking, which seems entirely appropriate.
    So we have to give them credit for starting out on this path.

    Extra: Lately you’ve been travelling to Latin America. Judging from your Magnum blog, you seem very enthusiastic about photography over there. Why is that?

    Martin Parr: I actually just came back from the Latin American Photo Forum where I saw lots of books and magazines. Surprisingly, a country like Brazil has a very healthy publishing program since there is this law stipulating that companies must reserve five percent of their profits to endorse cultural projects. This money mostly goes towards the publication of books, but the downside is that they tend to incorporate safe images and ideas. If you have a project in black and white focusing on indigenous Brazil, you will have no trouble getting subsidized. However, if you have a more contemporary project, dealing with, let’s say, Saõ Paulo, that would be seen as too controversial. Big corporations tend to avoid such projects, so what you end up with is a publishing policy that it too nostalgic; Brazilian photography books give this impression. The country where things are really happening is Argentina, which has combined a European sensibility with this sort of inherent Latin craziness. There is some very interesting work coming out of Argentina at the moment.

  367. Charles Peterson

    PANOS,

    Heard a cool piece on the radio (NPR) the other day about the rap scene in Haiti and the earthquake. Talking about impromptu parties at street corners amongst the rubble with sound systems set up and people dancing. Also rappers writing new songs about the earthquake and Haiti’s ill fortune (and some of their colleagues dead). Thought of you. I searched the NPR site but couldn’t find it.

    Hope you are well,

    Charles

  378. panos skoulidas

    Martin Parr:

    It is fantastic that there is no longer any technical intimidation. When I first started learning how to take photographs, you had to spend the first six months figuring out what an f-stop was. Now you just go and take pictures. Nobody thinks about technical issues anymore because cameras or camera phones take care of that automatically. On the other hand, you still have the option of controlling every technical aspect. It’s the most accessible, democratic medium available in the world. This has to be celebrated, and we must continually remind photographers of this.
    ————————————————————
    Amazing!..viva Parr

  379. panos skoulidas

    In other words back in the day the “photographer” was the guy that was able to use a camera or do prints in the mysterious intimidating dark room…
    Now the “photographer” is that guy thay can produce Great pictures…without having an alchemists or chemists licence…

  382. panos skoulidas

    Sorry to interrupt but please see this (it is in French, but i hope that most here speak many languages)
    PLEASE WATCH IT and take notice…very very important
    thank you

  384. michael webster

    So you’re suggesting Greece doesn’t need to spend 10’s of billions of Euros to protect itself from foreign invaders? Do you know nothing of history. The Mongols could be sweeping across the steppes any day now. They’ve done it before. What’s to guarantee they won’t do it again? Submarines, that’s what.

  385. michael webster

    And you know, it’s the same here. The U.S. spends more money on defense than the rest of the world combined, yet we’re still not safe. As long as there is a scenario, no matter how farfetched, we can never spend too much for weapons and armies. Greece, for example, once ruled the ancient world with brutal expansionism. How can we spend money on trifles such as health care, education and infrastructure when there might be another Alexander the Great plotting our demise from the deepest reaches of Macedonia?

  386. michael webster

    Just sayin. BTW, did you see my Laboratories slideshow? It’s kind of a joke, but not entirely. What’s wrong with a little optimism in the world some day? It’s not all dead guys in the streets around here. Sometimes the dead are still breathing.

  391. john gladdy

    Distant memories of cuba. Must go back some day and do it properly.
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-8a4e80742ca0226cc419acb51f61b99f-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-b35634accc12f75780fa1f5f77abd040-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-89c4fd09c8c3c268c7476b5b6a580c5c-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-dce00e4ef14e338c5d90db78c5497730-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-b6c22203761b922f562ed0de1834e544-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-55987de39a54ae0de78e844822c4d702-original.jpg
    http://images.cdn.fotopedia.com/john01-c342dec5b8061cb03305ab510ab902ab-original.jpg

  392. a civilian-mass audience

    the R-EVOLUTION has started …

    “The most important kind of freedom is to be what you really are. You trade in your reality for a role. You trade in your sense for an act. You give up your ability to feel, and in exchange, put on a mask. There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on and individual level. It’s got to happen inside first. You can take away a man’s political freedom and you won’t hurt him- unless you take away his freedom to feel. That can destroy him. That kind of freedom can’t be granted. Nobody can win it for you.”

    Jim Morrison

    PANO…let’s keep rolling…

  395. jenny lynn walker

    CHARLESb: I’d so love to see that in photographs – the rap scene in Haiti amongst the rubble. Triumph over adversity!!!

    MICHAELw: There are enemies everywhere you look when you’re intent on controlling the world and when you’re used to seeing enemies everywhere, no doubt you start inventing them as well – plus a large military machine helps keep people employed (and dying if you’re on the receiving end of it).

  396. panos skoulidas

    So you’re suggesting Greece doesn’t need to spend 10’s of billions of Euros to protect itself from foreign invaders?
    —————————
    :)..he he..you are correct on this one..the paradox is that the european union pretends it is “united” but they dont guarantee their very own borders..in other words greek borders is greece’s problem to guard..Imagine if washington only sells weapons to california and texas telling them its their problem the security of the borders…Germany and France sell super expensive weapons to greece, they profit and then complain why the country gets bankrupt…80000 refugees from africa, afghanistan etc arrive in greece yearly but europe just watches..and sell..sell..sell…not very considerate or “united” europe im afraid…If they want a real, strong United States of Europe then they also responsible for protecting the borders not just the unlucky one that happened(geographically) to be located at the gate of asia and africa..
    arghh..games, games, games…

  397. michael webster

    In the midst of a continuing “arms race” Michael. What hope is there?

    You’re asking me? I don’t know. My modus operandi has been to recognize and enjoy the great fortune of having been born in this time and place, hopefully do well by my family, and at worst do as little harm as possible to others. I greatly admire people those who take so much more responsibility, but alas, I am not one of them. When it goes beyond helping an individual right in front of me, I’m afraid it takes more hope than I can muster.

    Yes Gordon, Canada’s a great place, or I should say full of great places. The dead guy in the street thing kinda turned into a metaphor over the past week or so (I doubt I see more than one or two a week, and normally they’re still breathing). I see such extremes of happiness and misery in my daily life, and it’s often hard to tell, say by a photograph, who is experiencing which. It can be a bit disconcerting. Then reading Charles Bowden on top of that and following this whole Thailand/Greece thread, and being at least somewhat aware of what’s happening politically, what’s not to find black humor in?

  398. paultreacy.com

    People, listen up. LISTEN UP!

    I just received my copy of Anton’s 893 MAGAZINE and it’s sumptuously delicious and totally groovy. The dude is really making some stunning work and this magazine is a masterstroke.

    I strongly urge everyone to get a copy. It’ll enhance your library no end.

    Done.

  400. Herve

    As bad as the whole arm shenanigan looks, Panos, Greece is not bankrupt because it is buying arms.

    And as long as France sells arms, it will not get bankrupt! :-)))

    Arghhhh….

    COHN-BENDIT 2012. DANNY LE ROUGE FOR PRESIDENT! (uh, let me think….)

    :-))))

  401. anton

    PAUL!
     
     
     
     
    thanks for the words mate…. Thouroughly glad you like it!!!
     
     
     
    In Kabukicho now, the red light district in central Tokyo, middle of the night… In a little “weekly mansion” tiny room now, will be shooting here for a solid week… I’ll fear I’ll be wreck very quickly as shoots typically start at 1am and last to 6-7 am… and now I’m attempting to try this for a full week straight… why do I always make these impossible plans??? :-)
     
     
     
    wish me luck…
     
     
     
    Cheers,
    anton

  402. Herve

    Anton, in such a week, or one day as you describe actually, can you tell us how many pictures you take, roughly?

  403. Valery Rizzo

    Anton

    Your magazine looks great! what a nice way of promoting a project your working on. I love the way you shoot in low light. nice job, good luck.

    Valery

  404. anton

    hey Herve!

    it kind of depends on the moment, but of course you know…. I had 2,5 weeks go by with heavy negotiations and literally only 100 exposures and none of them satisfactory.

    But today was my first fruitful day and I did I think 360 exposures in a timeframe of a 5 hour shoot (the monthly meeting of the family, and surroundings). I think i have probably one keeper in that batch. in those 5 hours I “worked the scene” in about 5 scenes that happened before me (if memory serves me right), and then a dozen or so loose moments. I think usually I average a bit more exposures when further on.

    During working and shooting I take extreme care of the “social side”, interacting as much as possible with all the relevant people in as much as possible the right way, reading and keeping track of body language of several people at once, and trying to be in the right places on the street and in the rooms…. and at the same time laying foundations or making handshake appointments for future shoots, trying to confirm, or at minimum not to jeopardize, all the hard work my brother (and our fixer) does behind the scenes continuously tirelessly negotiating access into deeper and deeper, making as much as possible sure there will in fact be a next time.

    I find especially this last thing an extremely hard thing to do, because i have to do it while shooting, and after a day of shooting is done I literally crash physically and mentally with a bad headache. every time again.

    Obviously I wish I had a higher ratio… Or that I even could shoot simple more exposures… but I’m learning to accept this one I guess… and I work hard on my technical skills, to at least eliminate that as a possible factor as well… even though I feel I still have a long way to go gaining complete control over my camera/lens, feeling that I’m very slowly gaining control over my vision, is what makes me get up in the morning: it’s the most amazing thing to, through hard work, be given the opportunity “to carve my way” visually, develop further and hopefully grow to a higher level…

    2.20am here… need rest… weary head… hope I’ve answered your question…

    cheers
    a

  405. Preston Merchant

    MICHAEL Re your quote, “Greece, for example, once ruled the ancient world with brutal expansionism” —

    There is an excellent book, recently published, called “Lords of the Sea: The Epic Story of the Athenian Navy and the Birth of Democracy,” in which John R. Hale chronicles the Athenians’ decision in 483 BC to build a people’s navy — with all ranks of society pulling oars in a vast fleet of triremes — to spread democracy throughout the known world as a bulwark against Persian conquest. At the time, democracy was a radical idea. The notion that people other than noble families and soldiers should determine how they are governed was a dangerous concept, and having individual rights as citizens or allies of Athens turned power structures upside down.

    Athens had unparalleled success as the dominant military and politically progressive force on the plant, creating a Golden Age of art, poetry, architecture, sculpture, drama, historical scholarship, philosophy, and theory of government. But democracy gave way to oligarchy, which ceded to tyranny, and Athens was sacked by Sparta. Of course, Athens fought continual wars during its very brief (only 40 years or so) Golden Age.

    But the question here is the relationship between democracy and militarism (which is different from expansion or conquest).

  406. Herve

    So telling: hundreds of PJs in Bangkok, hundreds of twits, opinions, reports, millions of pictures, and not one essay, not one picture either of the region from where Red Shirts came from, and life in the villages.

    Reds! it’s not just the Bangkok elites who do not care about you, it’s the whole freaking world!

    I am no PJ, but I will concoct something (remember, no talent for photography, only for life) and BURN will be, again, the only place, where you saw it!

    Give me 48 hours. still on thai time here!!!!

    PS:I promise there will be no pictures of smiling children…. :-)

  407. anton

    Hey Valery,

    Was just heading off to bed when I saw your comment… thanks! Glad you like the magazine…

    cheers,a

  409. david alan harvey

    HERVE…

    good…do it..remember, you do not have to have pictures of EVERYTHING….nor feel that you have to tell the WHOLE story…simply A story…..this could be very very interesting if you can do this…and remember now you will also receive a bit of compensation from Burn if it works out well….6-10 pictures would be more than enough…or even one really powerful….let’s see what you can do with these important developments in Thailand…your territory…

    cheers, david

  411. Herve

    David, thanks for the good words, I appreciate the encouragement from you, and I sure don’t have pictures of everything, it will only be…. Something! :-)))

  413. kurtlengfield

    After reading Herve’s review of Anton’s 893 magazine just imagine my excitement when I had a Lulu package waiting for me at home. Herve as well as you described this, you still did not do it justice. This magazine is simply amazing it has a feel and a tone that flows throughout the book. Burnians we need to come together and support Anton on this project. Everyone needs to purchase this magazine for your library, trust me you wont be disappointed and I truly think the 893 in the title is what it will be worth in a few short years. Folks this as close as we are likely to come to flashing back to 1966 and getting a copy of “tell it like it is” by some young up and coming photographer.

  414. Herve

    After reading Herve’s review of Anton’s 893 magazine
    ——————————
    ?!?!?….. I’d like to read it too, where can I find it? :-)))

  415. Herve

    Panos, I hope you have a good one, here’s my virtual gift to you, my friend. It did not happen this time, but still waiting for you…. in Thailand! ;-)

  417. Herve

    No need to apologize, Kurt. I have opened you site, enjoying the slideshows. Just watched Barbershop blues and County Fair,..

  418. anton

    Kurt

    just woke up to your comment here in Tokyo… sun shining bright, time for a good coffee and getting some work done.

    thanks…

    a

  419. kurtlengfield

    Herve, thanks, One of the joys about burn is we not only get to read the comments, we can usually just click on a name and get a look at where someones photography is coming from. It is the very first thing I do when viewing someones work or if their comet sparks my interest. By the way I have been following your work since Road Trips.

  420. Haik

    Folks –
    Burn is being spam attacked. Not a big deal (read “do not panic”) on its own but I am forced to deleting all messages that are in the moderation queue in bulk. I can’t imagine me going through all 300+ to fish out the real ones.

    Please forgive if your comment in moderation disappears.

    Cheers,
    Haik

  423. Herve

    You did more than answer my question, Anton, thanks for expanding on all the work that happens just to get the situation right (in all aspects) and yet having to master the technical side for that elusive shot.

    On my side, and the little self-assignment I gave myself (where do the Red Shirts of Thailand come from?), this is worse than I thought! Most of what I have is rather DOA as photography goes, still I will go ahead and “concoct”, just as planned.

  426. david alan harvey

    KURT…

    very well put and true…Anton’s 893 will be the first in a series of a Burn endorsed or published gallery of books…others will follow….i remember Gene Richards saying years ago that all photographers should buy each others books…good idea…if i am going to go broke it will be by overspending on books by great photographers….just bought 893….richer for it…

    cheers, david

  427. Ross Nolly

    David; Ironically; I just had a splurge and a Eugene Richards book was in my letterbox today! Only the small Phaidon one though, amazing work!

  428. a civilian-mass audience

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY PANOS !!!

    The Beautifull Cheyenne Tribe…for you …just to remember your roadtrips…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0SG-e1vw9E&feature=related
    I know you are American BUT you are Greek too…
    therefore:

    Να ζησεις να τα εκατοστησεις
    με μια καμερα στο χερι
    να γλεντας και να τα πινεις
    και τον κοσμο να γυριζεις
    την αληθεια να μυριζεις
    και στο BURN να μας τα δειχνεις
    μην αλλαξεις, μην λυγισεις
    την αληθεια να μας δειξεις…
    αχ, κουραστηκα, βρε πια,
    λογια να βρω γιορτινα…
    μπλα,μπλα,μπλα
    αντε VIVA μαλακα
    και στα δικα μας !!!

    P.S I just wished him Happy Birthay …etcetera,etcetera…

  429. a civilian-mass audience

    MR.HARVEY.
    you shouldn’t say malaka…apapa,apapa…
    I will explain …when I see you…I hope not very soon…you better avoid traveling East…
    BUT what do I know …I am just a civilian…:)))

    ΗΑΙΚΚΚΚΚΚΚΚΚΚΚ…
    all this time…VIVA !!!

    MICHAELKKKKKKKKK….
    where have you beennnnnnnnnn!!!

    THOMAS…come on… sing…we can start the party…

    I am the happiest civilian…hmmm…not,yet…KATIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE…
    oime…where are you BURNIANSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS…???

    P.S extremely busy days for me…hiiiii…I know …Greeks work too:)))

    I LOVE YOU ALLLLL…I will be back …with baklava and tourta

  431. david alan harvey

    CIVILIAN…

    ok, i will not use that word again…my apology…Panos himself taught me that word as an expression of some kind of friendship and using it often with me, but i must admit i did not know what it meant exactly…i am now assuming some kind of vulgarity that is often used in many languages among friends (usually male) in spoken dialogue….so sorry…honest mistake….

    cheers, david

  432. stelios

    DAH
    go ahead don’t think Panos will be offended (as long as you don’t use this with anyone)

    Happy Birthday Panos!

  433. Lassal

    Panos,
    the happiest birthday to you!!!
    Hope you had a great time – sorry for being late. Just dropped in.
    :)

    All
    anybody in NY during the 8.-10. of June? Audrey and I will be in town during those days – Audrey will arrive a day earlier even, on the 7th. Anyone in town wants to meet for a nice dinner somewhere – or picknick at the riverside?? or …

    We will be going to the HBC exhibition in the MoMA on either the 9th or 10th. Will get tickets online. Audrey is a good researcher. If anybody wants to join in, drop me a line at info(at)lassal.de and we can get together.
    Hope to meet some of you.

  434. a civilian-mass audience

    oime DAH…there is no honest mistake…

    you got busted…BUT…
    I have to give you credit…
    your humor is inconceivable..

    yes, what not to love…malakes(plural)…:)))

  435. a civilian-mass audience

    the bar has been raised…
    the whole Universe is watching…hiiiii

    what’s on the menu…roasted garlic and sausages…
    ouzo and beer and one gigantic spiff as PETER suggested…

    Keep the party rolling…oime…what’s my name…

  436. Thomas Bregulla

    All,

    I’ll be in Bukarest 15th/16th of June. I’ll arrive on 14th in the afternoon. i.e. I have time to meet 14th in the evening or on the 15th in the evening. Anyone in Bukarest during this time?

  437. Lassal

    Thomas,

    ask Devin and/or Aga.
    Maybe they are there.

    Und hat es mit dem deutschen Treffen jetzt eigentlich noch geklappt, bevor Dominik in die USA ist?
    Wir sind alle ein wenig unkoordiniert, nicht? Lass uns in NY treffen :) Wahrscheinlich klappt das eher. Ich LIEBE Miles&More!

  438. Thomas Bregulla

    Lassal,
    yes I did – thanks. Maybe I’ll meet Davin and Aga there.

    Miles & More .. yes, I’d love it, too – but my employer gets them *sigh*

    New York is currently very far away, my son starts studying this year.

    Deutsches Treffen… ich dachte Dominik ist/war schon in den USA? … Ich glaube, nicht nur mein Bein war gebrochen … sollten wir nochmal angehen… REIMAR? … DOMINIK? ..

  442. Lassal

    Thomas,
    Dominik is still in the US. I assumed you three have met before he left.
    Hope your foot is ok again. No more nails and screws??

  444. Thomas Bregulla

    Lassal,

    screws and metal and stuff gets out in January, approx. I defined the ankle as healed and ignore everything else :) Life has to go on, and preserving or treating with care, did not help. Using as usual has the best development.

    No, unfortunately we did not meet before Dominik left to the US.
    The “German” meeting has to be somewhat later, then. When will you be back?

  447. david alan harvey

    STELIOS…

    i KNOW Panos not offended..or me either…he taught me the word….Panos called me that all the time when we out having a beer or whatever when i was in California…..again, a between friends only word i am sure….in English we have many potentially offensive words that when used in an among friends only casual chat are meant as some kind of verbal symbol of “we are buddies”….when i travel and am unfamiliar with the local language, the first words people want to teach me are always “bad words”…they love to laugh hearing you say them…i think this was the case when Panos taught me the never to be spoken or written again BAD WORD….

    cheers, david

  448. a civilian-mass audience

    THANK YOU PRESTON
    Malaka= usually used as a friendly greeting…
    hiiiiiiiiiiiii…you are all amazing… where is the birthday boy???
    and why everyone is going to NY??? what am I missing???

    Shall I follow MARCIN’S wave??? are we going west or east…???

    No need to reply…I just ate too much…

  449. panos skoulidas

    ALL…
    big fat thank you for b-day burn and facebook wishes …
    this will be very quick coz im dead tired..i wasnt here(home) for the last (a little longer than 2 days and one night)couple days…
    Instead of staying around family and celebrate birthday etc i chose to do something “stupid”…I jumped on a 18 (or 12 wheel truck), followed closely the truck driver and went through some sick shit…
    To be very honest i thought it would be a boring trip…I cant imagine how boring can be to sit in a huge truck for hours, days, months , no healthy sleep, nothing healthy to eat, no healthy thoughts..
    no cleanliness, mosquitoes biting you..man its sickening…but there must be “something” that make truckers proud of what they do..there must be something there except from the money..im curious ..i needed to know…and i wanted to challenge myself photographically…i need to turn the answers to my questions into photos..this is Burn after all and this is what i like doing..my Therapy..blah blah
    but back in my experience…im dead tired tonight and i wanna talk with pictures anyways coz talk is cheap..
    Soooooooooo, couple days ago, i was sitting desperate in my room (not really my room but temporary shelter somewhere in grecolandia-my fathers house to be specific-im not in a psychiatric clinic yet , although im heading there if i dont return soon “home” in the US..So while i was thinking that one more birthday of mine is coming up and i will probably have to spend it around my extra super neurotic and controlling mother, the phone rings…
    It was Pavlos! but who the heck is Pavlos? Well, meet Pavlos..He is a really cool guy, the sweetest heart, maybe not the most intellectual guy but i tell u this very seriously..Pavlos is probably one of the sweetest and more innocent people of this earth..never thinks of himself first..always a giver,…His job is a truck driver..He loves this job..He is a Free Spirit…but not a lucky “free spirit”..
    But lets leave the details for later…
    So Pavlos tells me on the phone…”Listen, im leaving on 48 hours non stop intense trip around greece..we will eat , sleep ,drink eat on the truck..Come with me…JOIN ME…you will get exhausted but you cant miss the tour de Grece …Im leaving in 10 minutes..Look outside the window..Thats the truck..all u need is a blanket..are u coming? yes or no? i have to leave in 10′”…
    I grabbed the camera bag and the blanket..YES i replied, wait for me…Well to make the long story short the trip didnt go well..EVERYTHING and ANYTHING that could go wrong did go wrong…I will tell you only one thing to give the idea…We just came back home, dead tired and exhausted, tired as hell but with NO TRUCK..yes, we hitch hiked, begged ,cried, we even begged an Orthodox Priest for help and of course HE, the representative of God, DENIED..yes the priest told us straight in our face, after he heard our story: “sorry i have some stuff in my back seat, cant give u a ride or money, bye”…and sped away…
    Yes u heard me well..so please stay tuned..i will tell u everything start from tomorrow about the story accompanied with pictures.. not only the exciting but also the mundane…otherwise make no sense..right?

    Anyway, 3:30am here, pitch dark, it was raining for the last two days around here too so to make my canvas converses unbearable to wear ..(when it rains it pours right? indeed)…I want to answer every email and Facebook mail for all the wishes..THANK YOU AGAIN, and i will personally reply to all my friends (isnt facebook great though? that reminds us about upcoming friend’s birthdays so noone gets missed or left out???-great invention:)
    ok..good night all..i will read all emails first thing tomorrow and work on my TRUCK DRIVER photos but before i go to sleep..you know i have to check the latest Essay here..
    one love

  450. panos skoulidas

    OHHHHHHHHHHH that was a great birthday present just came through Winephoto through (facebook mail),,,,,,,…….im excited….I see some burnians exhibiting here too:))))

    WINEPHOTO 2010

    “At Home Impressions of Domestic Conviviality”
    LIST OF WINNERS

    1st prize EMILY SCHIFFER, USA
    2ND GIOVANNI COCCO, ITALY
    3RD LEA MEINSLAND, DENMARK
    4TH ANTONIO DE MESA, SPAIN
    5TH PAOLO MARCHETTI, ITALY

    Special Mention LITON MASUD ALAM, BANGLADESH
    Special Mention DMITRY MARKOV, RUSSIAN FEDERATION
    Special Award given by journalist’s Jury CARLO GIANFERRO, ITALY

    Also in the exhibit
    PETR ANTONOV, RUSSIAN FEDERATION
    ANNA MARIA BARRY-JESTER, USA
    CHRISTINA CLUSIAU, USA
    ANDREA GJESTVANG, NORWAY
    MARCO ILLUMINATI, ITALY
    SANJA KNEZEVIC, SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO
    HENRICK MALMSTROM, FINLAND
    ALFONSO MORAL, SPAIN
    SILVIU PAVEL, ROMANIA
    JACOPO QUARANTA, ITALY
    RAFAL SIDERSKY, POLAND
    PANOS SKOULIDAS, GREECE
    LISA WILTSE, USA

    2010 edition had 340 partecipants, from 44 countries and has received 3207 pictures
    AWARDING and EXHIBIT ON MAY 30TH 2010 at Villa Braida in MOGLIANO VENETO (TV), ITALY

    The 2010 theme, “Impressions of Domestic Conviviality” is meant to embrace “Conviviality” in its broadest sense. Photographers should interpret “Conviviality” — from the Latin, cum vivere, meaning living together or living with — in the most creative way. “Domestic,” obviously, relates to home.
    So seventh edition theme, “At Home: Impression of Domestic Conviviality”, will be windows into how the world lives.

    The panel of JUDGES was composed of:

    David Alan Harvey (photographer, Magnum Agency),
    Kent Kobersteen (former Director of Photography of National Geographic Magazine),
    Antonin Kratochvil (VII agency),
    Alex Majoli (photographer, Magnum Agency),
    Paolo Pellegrin (photographer, Magnum Agency),
    Barbara Stauss (photo editor, Mare Magazine). The special mention (Menzione Speciale Food Writers) was by journalists Paolo Marchi and Regina Schrambling and Shirley Wu Yan.

  452. panos skoulidas

    Thomas Bregulla (double thanks) ,Herve, Michael Kircher, DAH, Civi, Imants;), Stelios, Lassal, Marcin …thank you..and let me move to Facebook for more…:)

  454. a civilian-mass audience

    BRAVO…BRAVO…BRAVO..MY BURNIANS…you are on the roll !!!

    2010 edition had 340 partecipants, from 44 countries and has received 3207 pictures
    AWARDING and EXHIBIT ON MAY 30TH 2010 at Villa Braida in MOGLIANO VENETO (TV), ITALY…
    visual stimulation …and wine…
    can a civilian attend the exhibit???

  455. a civilian-mass audience

    keep the energy UP…
    Fight, F…k,Forget the Fear…
    you are ALL Unique and Special…

    P.S life is Full of F’s …hihiii…
    VIVA Winephoto…
    this is my calling…oime…hiiiiiihooooooooooo

  457. a civilian-mass audience

    BJARTE,
    who am I??? you are a BURNIAN, a photophilosopher….

    DAVIDB,
    how is the project???

    KATIE FONSECA…we need update…LOVE

    VIVEK are you ok???

    I had a feeling…don’t travel East…oime…

    I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL…i gave away two chickens…I am down to 12…

  460. a civilian-mass audience

    thanks VIVEK for the check in…104…I am coming over!!!

    I will be back…

  461. Herve

    Got to let it out… FFFFIUUUUUCCCKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All the pictures I had edited for my little “essay” on the Issan region were on a USB key, and all the data has disappeared from that key. I have no idea how/why, first time such stuff happens to me.

    All that work to do again (and the pix are not even that good!)….

    Karma? Waht did I do? talk thai politics? Yeah, that’s it, most likely….

    Fuck de fuck de fuck de fuck…………..

  462. Haik

    Herve, you saw it on USB and then it was gone? the key here is that if you saw it once, we can see it again.

  464. Lee Guthrie

    Hey Burnians all. After days of rain, catching photos of flowers and weird experience with a horse, I suddenly decided to go to the Gulf Coast to help with the cleanup. I loaded the car with Dawn Dishwashing Soap (best thing to take oil off of birds), Pepto Bismol (??), bandages, and old sheets and towels and took off. On the road I listened to the news and heard that the first oil (that I could get to) was Grand Isle, Louisiana. After two days of traveling in the worst weather ever (tornados everywhere–behind me, ahead of me, over the top of me) I made it to Grand Isle.

    For 36 hours I tried to connect with someone who would allow me to volunteer to no avail. Could not even give the supplies to anyone. Closed doors and no one at home. Took off this afternoon in disgust and headed north again. After a few hours of doubting the reason for my existence, getting lost and starving to death I got off of at the Ponchatoula, Louisiana exit. I spotted Paul’s Cafe and pulled in.

    Paul, the owner, pulls up a chair and starts talking to me and I told him my story. He immediately gets on the phone (after bringing me extra chicken and banana pudding) and calls a woman who calls another woman. Long story short I was able to put the supplies in the hands of a group that will truly appreciate and use them. What a relief.

    Then I read Panos’ telling of the truck driving tale. Seems we were on the same road trip for a while.

    So although I was not able to help in the cleanup (need special training, etc.) supplies that I was compelled to purchase and drive two days to deliver are now in the hands of those that will use them. No photos to speak up except a few of the oil on the beach. Really disgusting mess.

    The other part of this experience is I have once again come to the conclusion that government is really whacked out.

  465. david bowen

    civi :ø)

    present and correct..
    moving for4ward..
    focused..
    all that jazz..

    how you doing, 2 chickens down as you are?
    less eggs for breakfast and you’ll soon make up the numbers..
    d

  466. jenny lynn walker

    DAH/HERVE/ALL: I just posted an article here from Newsweek about Shinawatra being a Democrat but it has gone missing. This is the intro:
    “Former Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was thought to be a populist demagogue. Actually, he was the high-water mark for Thai democracy.”

    I will post it again now. I was happy to read one or two of the comments which also showed how the Red Shirt protest really is a ‘Robin Hood’ effort to help reduce inequalty in Thailand.

    I already posted this once and will continue all day if it continues to go missing again and again:

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/238161/page/1

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/238161/page/2

  467. Eric Espinosa

    TO ALL-

    Some have been asking me what I was up to with my “Macadam Riders” project. This project has really only started but I did a quick Burn book with some of the photographs I have taken so far. It is way premature to make a book (I have only been to 2 or 3 locations) but the main objective is to have it with me when I plan to go to different skateparks over the summer… Useful to show around and gain confidence when I will have little time to build trust and will inevitably be asked why I want to take pictures of the kids….

    http://www.blurb.com/books/1375671

    Especially given early, do not hesitate to tell me what you think….

    DAVID,

    as always, will be interested to get your thoughts as well as I shape this new project…

    Cheers,

    Eric

  468. panos skoulidas

    Eric, i loved the design (square format) on some pages…i loved the skies…You are a true master of color too…The story is a good start…I know its not easy to go closer in those kids lives …but its something like i that i would like to see…the stories, the lives of couple of Insiders and for this to happen u gotta be one of them..start skating too, smoke with them etc..and that is not easy if not impossible..

  469. Lee Guthrie

    I like it Eric. Give the kids a copy; that could go a long way to get in as Panos says. Good work.

  470. kh

    I’d like to second DAH ‘s post on ” closing time “…Jenny & Herve…would you have any pictures to show if you are based in BKK or are long -time visitors ?
    best,
    K.

  471. david alan harvey

    JENNY…

    you frequently suggest that your comments “go missing” ..i wonder what is happening..certainly nothing at this end….i just looked “inside” and nothing is being held in pending….

  472. david alan harvey

    JENNY…

    something is weird about whatever is going on with you and comments..for example, i see your comment here obviously, yet it is not listed as a recent comment under “recent comments” under the current dialogue…hmmmm, i cannot figure this out…i am sure Anton can…

    however, i do look forward to seeing your pictures from BKK….

    cheers, david

  473. david alan harvey

    ERIC…

    i just did a very quick flip through your Macadam Riders…you are ALWAYS on it…nice work…i might have suggested a couple of sequence changes, but those are minor…is this something you are still shooting? if so, i would definitely go for either recorded live sound and/or video as well…this subject really lends itself to multi-media…and one of the kids talking about it, plus the ambient sound, plus the motion could really put it over the top….the other thing you might want to think about is to now forget the overall scene…you got it…either go extreme close , as you did in some, or way way back to give us context….get totally crazy….loose….particularly on this subject…your mastery of the color and the light is right on as usual….oh yes, you have better cover shots in there than the one you chose i think….back to you later with a few other points, but basically very very nice….you outproduce and outshoot many a pro photog….

    cheers, david

  474. Valery Rizzo

    Hi Eric,

    Nice idea to put into book form as you work on it. Cool project. I have been thinking recently of doing the same with my “Brooklyn” project. I just took a photo of black skateboarders in Brooklyn
    http://www.valeryrizzo.com/gallery.html?folio=Portfolio&gallery=Brooklyn (unfortunately the link cant be directed to that particular image, its image 33 if interested)

    DAH…..I would love to take a photography book making workshop, editing, printing etc., Is that something you do David? Powerhouse had one but it was more about just editing.
    Also I would also love some feedback from you about how my project is going, some advice and what you think :-)) Also you had mentioned something about adding something to the submission page for works in progress or ideas for projects??

    Val

  475. david alan harvey

    VALERY…

    working with photographers on their book projects is one of the main things i do, although i can only take on around 4 books per year …since you are in new york, let’s make sure we meet the next time i am in town…next time will be mid june…yes, we must still put up the idea heading on Burn…as soon as we finish EPF and BURN 01, then we will have time to get this going…in the meantime, you can always run ideas by me on email…be patient please because sometimes i am overwhelmed with email….

    cheers, david

  476. Eric Espinosa

    DAVID,

    Thanks for your encouragement. I am most definetely still shooting this subject!!! I actually feel I have just started really and I have time to build on it. I have tried to identify some of the great skateparks and communities around few large towns around Europe and little by little, I will try to go, spend some time when possible and add to this initial work. As my “day work” keeps me crazy busy since back, things are not progressing as quickly as I would like but on the other hand, there is no rush… I will certainly take on your suggestion of adding sound/video… and, somehow, I was expecting your push to get totally crazy and loose :):):):)

    PANOS/LEE,

    Thanks for the suggestions…. I need you Panos to come to Brussels and smoke with me and these kids :):):)

    VALERY,

    I think I told you this before but I love your work and look forward to the day you put a book together.

    Cheers,

    Eric

  477. wendy

    ERIC
    your book looks great!!!
    your colors are so rich…
    what gives?
    Is it how you sync your flash?
    I don’t normally get into tech talk,
    but how do you get that richness?
    in all your work,
    your color has such a punch…
    i love it….
    ***

  478. Valery Rizzo

    David…

    That sounds good, to meet up next time when your in town, providing you have the time, I entirely understand and respect what a busy schedule you have. I will try emailing you soon. Thanks.

    Eric….

    No I did not know, but that is nice and encouraging since I also love your work.

    Peace

  480. Herve

    Kh, back in California. if you remember, I am not based in Bangkok, love the place though. While all this was happening, I spent times in temples, shooting novices during their lent season, that time when many boys don the “yellow” robe, and learn Pali texts about Buddhism.

    It reminds me of HCB’s words about Ansel Adams: “the world is falling apart around us and Adams is shooting mountains!”…

  481. eva

    .. and DAH is finding a home for kittens.. now where’s Civi when you need one “what’s not to love”?

  482. a civilian-mass audience

    LEE the artist…
    what a soul…THANK YOU…
    I dream almost every night…that I help the world…
    hmmm…in the morning …I find myself in the same room …with my chickens
    BUT if I take small steps …I can do good…I will find the way
    cause I am an optimist…

    ERIC,
    …BURN colored riders…!!!

    HERVE…HAIK can do magic…he fixed my computer…
    he is DA MAN!!!

    DAVIDB…I hear you…focus mate,focus…BUT you are better when you are loose…IMO:)))

    MR.HARVEY,
    kittens gone…chickens gone…life is going on…
    WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!

  483. a civilian-mass audience

    BURNIANS,

    EVA is another great soul…
    she is a true spirit…
    and again…oime
    I am SPEECHLESS…

    THANK YOU ALL…
    from my civilian heart…to your heart…keep your dreams rolling and keep the trees growing
    LOVE to ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

  484. a civilian-mass audience

    ohhhh…I had a dream that BURN got a SPONSOR…hmmm…

    ok,I need another round of white water…
    OPA and VIVA…

  485. eva

    Civi, stop that..

    Can’t get Eric’s book to work, connection coming and going.. more going really.. and Anton’s mag hasn’t arrived yet.. sure will do when I’m away again, ARGH.. but at least got to see Valery’s picture :)

  488. Eric Espinosa

    your colors are so rich…
    what gives?

    WENDY,

    Thanks for your comments. Well, I am not a big tech guy so you may be disappointed here… Somehow, after lots of trials and errors in the past, I have managed to find a way of getting the colors I am looking for…. To start with I often purposely go for shooting a subject with bright colors, grafittis, etc, then try to use late afternoon light, even better dark cloudy sky (happens often in Belgium) then have my camera under exposed (-0.5 or -1), white balance set on cloudy sky and colors sometimes on saturated (when I do not do it directly with the camera, I sometimes enhance saturation afterward)… even after this I often expose on the bright part of the picture (like the only white cloud in the dark sky) and then use my flash… I have become addicted to my flash… the small pop-up flash on my Nikon is my norm… I use it all the time even in bright day light… That’s it really….not sure this helps :):):) but as you have asked… anyway, glad you liked it…

    Cheers,

    Eric

  490. michael webster

    Hey Eric, nice work. I like how you’ve handled the light and exposures. Sequence-wise, you might want to consider mixing up the people and the skating a lot more. To my eye, the skating is more peripheral to the people than vice versa.

  491. emcd

    Just checking in with a quick hello and a word to let you know that Andrew Sullivan and I have had a first and very happy and successful (albeit tiring) day of our very first workshop. I can already tell that I will need some stamina tips from DAH, if the maestro can spare a few suggestions of how to last a full week! Sorry to go missing from burn lately, but time is only allowing to keep you all in my heart…ciao

  492. panos skoulidas

    I need you Panos to come to Brussels and smoke with me and these kids :):):)
    —————————————————–
    ha ha..now you’re talking amigo!!!

  501. Eric Espinosa

    ROSS,

    Just looked at the work of Jan Grarup…The picture of the dead man with face covered in bloor and eyes opened is simply unbearable!!

    Eric

  503. emcd

    anyone remember offhand the name of the photographer who took sort of voyeuristic photos of office workers at night, including building / other windows sometimes to use the elements of the grid..nice light, quiet, lonely mood…

    thanks!

  504. Herve

    Eric, it may be more bearable if he is only wounded? I mean, I am not sure he is dead (second comment, not sure what happend to the first, maybe did not send)

  505. Eric Espinosa

    Herve,

    You are right…Not sure if the man is dead or not (I hope he is still alive) and it also does not make a difference whether he is dead or wounded…It is simply just a tough picture to look at…Probably makes it powerful though….

    Eric

  506. eva

    Panos:

    “and my unanswered question regarding Thailand…
    It is legal for a pervert to hire a 10 year old for sex but i cant smoke a joint by the beach over there in Thailand…It ls legal for any asshole Thaksin to kill a heroin addict but it is ok to protect a pimp that profits from prostitution of little kids and teenagers…Shame, hypocrites..”

    I don’t know if it’s legal, but that doesn’t really matter, since it is tollerated anyway.. I’m not much wiser about Thai politics than I was before, this party, that party, whatever colour they wear.. but as long as explotation and abuse of your very own children (if you are a politician, they are ALL YOUR KIDS), is either legal or being tollerated, it doesn’t really mater who sits on the top chair (to me).

  508. jenny lynn walker

    EVA: I agree with you.

    ERCIA: No, but I wish I did!

    ALL: I hope you got to see the faces of every dead and injured person as well! What wonderful images to be remembered by! I bet their families are over the moon to look at their brothers and sisters splashed over newspapers like this! Will you remember the way they were killed or the injury that led to them dying?

    And just out of interest: what effect do these images have on your understanding of the situation in Thailand and how far should the documenting go? Clearly documentation of human rights abuses and conflicts needs to be done – and not only of the conflict but all that gave rise to the conflict as well? What do you think?

    What have you learned from these images and what have you learned about protestors and the protest from them?

  509. Lance Rosenfield

    ERIC – lovely work my friend.. and i’m not surprised.

    i must say the sequencing threw me off a bit, starting with the close-up of the girl in purple.. she’s buried way too deep in my opinion.. and the pictures that follow her seem different than the earlier pictures.. are they meant to be a different chapter? if not i’d start mixing this up.. pace this out.. keep it hoppin’. i’m walking through the park POP POP fresh action fresh faces fresh concrete sounds… i dig it man.

  511. panos skoulidas

    it doesn’t really mater who sits on the top chair (to me).
    ————————————————–
    Eva i agree…but question remains..why this phenomenon is so tolerated? by the people? or is it not?
    is it just poverty…? well..i guess that must be it..extreme poverty…i really dont know!

  512. panos skoulidas

    Eva, i used to like a particular pizza place back in the day…most times i ordered it used to be the same guy delivering the pizza..well after a while we got to know each other a little better, ice broke..so the deliver guy once told me that he visits thailand regularly…at least once every couple of months…Super cheap and the girls are nice…you can have 5 girls or more up into your room…blah blah..
    I remember when i asked him about why is prostitution is so accepted over there…he told me something like: “ohh why being so uptight? people there see it as a job”…kinda over simplistic right? but then again he could be right..maybe i am uptight…right wing uptight i would add , especially when it comes to kids and teens…

  513. eva

    There is no free choice if you take that specific choice out of poverty.

    If there were no clients, there would be no offer. It’s a simple equation. Unless in your homeland there is some control (Italy jails the sex tourists if they discover them as paedophiles right off the airport when they land on National territory). But I could not say if this is influent, in numbers.

    I also know not enough about Thai culture to have a firm opinion (even having Thai family members).

    People there see it as a job? All fine if you’re an adult and consentient, if it is your free choice. And there we’re back to point one.

    And about poverty: is it not the politicians that should do something against that?

    One other thing I really don’t understand, all the Westeners always so paranoid of AIDS.. it hasn’t stopped them at all it seems..

  515. michael webster

    Right wing uptight about a sex-related issue? Right wing uptight means you are doing what you are so vocally criticizing or at least desperately wanting to do it, and then blaming someone else for your bad thoughts. No, I don’t think that’s what you mean. Hopefully, you are more left wing uptight, which would be more of a discomfort-with-the-fate-of-the-victims kind of thing.

    Prostitution will never go away. Some men will always choose to pay for sex. Some women and men will always choose to sell it. When it comes to legalities, imo, choice is the key word. Children simply cannot choose to sell their bodies. Minors are not competent to make such a choice. It is not a choice when one must do it to eat, or feed one’s children, or otherwise survive. But if someone is freely selling themselves in order to amass diamonds and pearls, well, I suppose that’s her own business. In that case, my concern is that adults who choose to prostitute themselves should have legal protections and safe working conditions just as miners or factory workers or any other workers. But on the flip side, the side we’re discussing, those who force individuals or prey on individual who are forced into that line of work should be branded as sociopaths and prosecuted. Is that uptight?

  516. panos skoulidas

    Yes Michael I agree…
    Prostitution is the oldest profession and I respect it..
    That under age, minor, pedophile “thing” is that sickens me
    in a society (Thai) that will Kill anyone for smoking a joint…
    That’s why I’m so against that “war on drugs” serial killer hypocritical guy:(

  518. michael webster

    And then u have California that legalizes medical marijuana but keeps prostitution illegal..

    Well, you can always live on the California/Nevada border. That way you can legally keep your whore on one side of the line and your weed on the other. Who says the systen’s fucked up? Who says there’s a system?

  520. panos skoulidas

    Michael… Yes.. That’s it… Vegas twice a month and Venice for meds..;)
    or u can have it “both” delivered in your room in NY…
    problem solved..

  522. david alan harvey

    ERICA…ANDREW

    good luck with your workshop…yes, it does take a whole lot of energy….looks simple, but of course is not…i am usually totally drained by the end and i am sure you will agree at your conclusion…both of you will do very well i am sure….wish i was around to pop in and see how you doing…

    cheers, david

  524. Brian Frank

    Isn’t one of the main arguments against prostitution (at least in the US) is that the commonality of the prostitutes’ backgrounds? Poverty, drug abuse, sexual abuse lead to the choice not exactly being a free one?

  525. jenny lynn walker

    Wow, that is a wonderful piece from Julio Bittencourt in Sao Paulo! I really enjoyed seeing an approach that manages to unveil the daily lives of people living in difficult circumstances in an intimate way so respectfully! I love it! Thanks for sharing Eva!

    ERICA: Good luck with your workshop!

  526. panos skoulidas

    in Ancient Athens though the “hetaeras” prostitutes were highly respected (way more than the average housewife to say at least)…Pericles was married to the most powerful, educated pretty ….

    “Ancient writers also reported that Aspasia was a brothel keeper and a harlot”

    Advanced society (at least at that subject);)

  527. Herve

    Panos, I am not sure, maybe you confuse Cambodia with Thailand for being so angry against child sex trafficking? Not saying there is none of that happening in Thailand, since it happens here, or in France too (often within the same family) but Thailand has made strides, if compared with its neighbour….

    It’s a society that is in many ways libertarian, very live and let live, and for each to deal with the own consequences of its act. It has more to do with the mental fabric of the society than condoning crimes.

    It’s like here, people find perfectly normal we invade another country for its own good. Well, Thais will never be responsible for having hundred of kids and women maimed or killed as casualties of war. Not to speak of the resurgence of prostitution from economic disruption in these places we want to help (the admn may go for the oil or something, but we the people definitely accept it because of the samaritan purpose).

    Must go (for the day)…

  530. a civilian-mass audience

    “Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.”
    Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy

    hmmm…I want to evolve…

    Evolve=love…Can I dance now???

  531. Herve

    Dropping by….

    Panos… soccer girl (pun vaguely not intended)… As long as she is not flied from Morocco to Gstaad by Polansky! :-)))

  533. emcd

    David – It would be so great for the students to meet you – I think you are of course away, busy, but if you appear in Brooklyn do let us know, there is a group dinner Thursday nite around the corner from Marcy and we would love you there and would treat :)

    Thanks all for the encouragement – the photos from just the first day were such a leap from their portfolios, so we are very pleased and excited for them. I’m actually a little surprised how natural it feels to teach, the first challenge I have come across is to stay fully attuned to the needs and details of 10 at once, to give everyone the same attention and consideration despite personality or photography style/experience or anything else…I feel like a momma bear making sure all the baby bears get enough to eat! Around 4 pm today I started fantasizing about laying down…I think I need a caffeine drip.

  539. a civilian-mass audience

    EMCD and ANDREW…
    you are proud bears and I am a very very proud civilian…
    we will be there too, All the BURNIANS next to you…
    cause BURN is an Open workshop with an Open window

    ahhh…DAH …there is no other feeling …like when you see your “babies”…going out to the real world…
    hmmm…actually there is…
    hiiiii….I am bad, I am bad…
    NoNToReply

    THE UNIVERSE …BURNIANS the Universe
    we are all energy…energy comes and goes and floats around us…
    we have to respect our energy…
    Can you send me a smile now??? no,not the half, whatever smile…
    I would love a smile from your heart…yeap, a real one…like when you are holding a cold beer and you are watching the birds fart by…
    oime…I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLll

  540. a civilian-mass audience

    MR.VINK,

    keep us rolling …
    beer on you in Cambodia
    beer on me in Grecolandia

    VIVA!!!

  541. bob black

    something for those interested in reading a Thai perspective about the conflict….from S.P. Somtow…a composer and author……my friend Oli Pin-fat sent me this last week….here is the text in full…

    also Somtow’s blog is: http://www.somtow.org/

    —————————————————————————————————
    Thailand: Challenging the “heroic revolution” archetype
    Somtow Sucharitkul

    I have been composing a long, day by day account of the “troubles” of
    the last three days, which I have not yet posted. The reason is that
    I’ve been getting a lot of mail asking me to explain “the truth” to
    people overseas.

    A lot of people here are astonished and appalled at the level of
    irresponsibility and inaccuracy shown by such major news sources as CNN,
    and are attributing the most astonishing motives to this, such as
    suggesting that they’re in the pay of Thaksin and so on.

    I don’t think this is really what is going on. Rather, I think that
    there are two basic problems: preconception and language.

    CNN first became a force to be reckoned with during the “People Power”
    movement in the Philippines. The kind of coverage we had for this was
    amazing. There was a camera in every camp, and we could follow this
    exciting revolution every step of the way. We knew exactly who to root
    for: the oppressed masses led by the widow of the iconic Aquino, and we
    knew that whenever President Marcos appeared he was Darth Vader, the
    symbol of an evil empire. The arc of the story was simple and
    inexorable. A whole new way of looking at the news was born, with all
    the excitement of a TV miniseries and, prophetically, a reality show as
    well.

    Of course, many of the little details of the story were conveniently
    glossed over. Reality was not — never is — so black and white. But there
    are three important things about this story: first, in its essentials,
    there was a lot of truth. And all the protagonists spoke English.

    The Philippines, as Filipinos never tire of telling me, is the third
    most populous English speaking country in the world. We will leave the
    definition of “English-speaking” to another blog, but it’s very
    important that the various sides in this conflict were able to
    articulate their viewpoints in a language which CNN well understood.

    The third important thing about the story is that it fulfilled a vision
    of history that is an inseparable part of the inheritance of western
    culture, that is so ingrained in western thinking that it is virtually
    impossible for an educated member of western society to divorce himself
    from it.

    It is a vision of history as a series of liberations. From Harmodius and
    Aristogeiton throwing off the tyrant’s yoke to the removal of the
    Tarquins and the establishment of the Roman Republic to the failed
    rebellion of Spartacus, from Magna Carta to the Bastille to the American
    Civil War to the Russian Revolution, there is this Platonic Model
    against which these big historical movements are always compared. There
    is a bad guy — often a dictator — who can be demonised. There is a
    struggling proletariat. The end comes with “liberty and justice for
    all”. This is Star Wars. The dark times. The Empire.

    The “People Power” coverage was riveting, compelling, and contained all
    the emotional components of this mythical story arc. Finding another
    such story, therefore, is a kind of Holy Grail for the international
    media. When a story comes that appears to contain some of the elements,
    and it’s too much hard work to verify those elements or get all the
    background detail, you go with the Great Archetype of Western
    Civilisation.

    Now, let us consider the redshirt conflict.

    Let’s not consider what has actually been happening in Thailand, but how
    it looks to someone whose worldview has been coloured with this
    particular view of history.

    Let’s consider the fact that there is pretty much nothing being
    explained in English, and that there are perhaps a dozen foreigners who
    really understand Thai thoroughly. I don’t mean Thai for shopping,
    bargirls, casual conversation and the like. Thai is a highly ambiguous
    language and is particularly well suited for seeming to say opposite
    things simultaneously. To get what is really being said takes total
    immersion.

    When you watch a red shirt rally, notice how many English signs and
    placards there are, and note that they are designed to show that these
    are events conforming to the archetype. The placards say “Democracy”,
    “No Violence,” “Stop killing innocent women and children” and so on.
    Speakers are passionately orating, crowds are moved. But there are no
    subtitles. What does it look like?

    The answer is obvious. It looks like oppressed masses demanding freedom
    from an evil dictator.

    Don’t blame Dan Rivers, et al, who are only doing what they are paid to
    do: find the compelling story within the mass of incomprehensible data,
    match that story to what the audience already knows and believes, and
    make sure the advertising money keeps flowing in.

    A vigorous counter-propaganda campaign in clear and simple English words
    of one syllable has always been lacking and is the reason the government
    is losing the PR war while actually following the most logical steps
    toward a real and lasting resolution.

    If the foreign press were in fact able to speak Thai well enough to
    follow all the reportage here coming from all sides, they would also be
    including some of the following information in their reports. I want to
    insist yet again that I am not siding with anyone. The following is just
    information that people really need before they write their news
    reports.

    • Thaksin was democratically elected, but became increasingly undemocratic, and the country gradually devolved from a nation where oligarchs skimmed off the top to a kleptocracy of one. During his watch, thousands of people were summarily executed in the South of Thailand and in a bizarre “war on drugs” in which body count was considered a marker of success.

    • the coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government.

    • the yellow shirts’ greatest error in moulding its international image was to elevate Thaksin’s corruption as its major bone of contention. Thai governments have always been corrupt. The extent of corruption and the fact that much of it went into only one pocket was shocking to Thais, but the west views all “second-rate countries” as being corrupt. Had they used the human rights violations and muzzling of the press as their key talking points, the “heroic revolution” archetype would have been moulded with opposite protagonists, and CNN and BBC would be telling an opposite story today.

    • the constitution which was approved by a referendum after the coup and which brought back democracy was flawed, but it provided more checks and balances, and made election fraud a truly accountable offense for the first time.

    • the parliamentary process by which the Democrat coalition came to power was the same process by which the Lib Dems and Tories have attained power in Britain. The parliament that voted in this government consists entirely of democratically elected members.

    • no one ever disputed the red shirts’ right to peaceful assembly, and the government went out of its way to accede to their demands.

    • this country already has democracy. Not a perfect one, but the idea of “demanding democracy” is sheer fantasy

    • the yellow shirts did not succeed in getting any of their demands from the government. The last two governments changed because key figures were shown to have committed election fraud. They simply did not take their own constitution seriously enough to follow it.

    • the red TV station has a perfect right to exist, but if foreign journalists actually understood Thai, they would realise that much of its content went far beyond any constitutionally acceptable limits of “protected speech” in a western democracy. Every civilised society limits speech when it actually harms others, whether by inciting hate or by slander. The government may have been wrong to brusquely pull the plug, but was certainly right to cry foul. It should have sought an injunction first. Example: Arisman threatened to destroy mosques, government buildings, and “all institutions you hold sacred” … a clip widely seen on YouTube, without subtitles. Without subtitles, it looks like “liberty, equality, fraternity”.

    • the army hasn’t been shooting women and children … or indeed anyone at all, except in self-defence. Otherwise this would all be over, wouldn’t it? It’s simple for a big army to mow down 5,000 defenceless people.

    • since the government called the red shirts’ bluff and allowed the deputy P.M. to report to the authorities to hear their accusations, the red leaders have been making ever-more fanciful demands. The idea of UN intervention is patently absurd. When Thaksin killed all those Muslims and alleged drug lords, human rights groups asked the UN to intervene. When the army took over the entire country, some asked the UN to intervene. The UN doesn’t intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign countries except when requested to by the country itself or when the government has completely broken down.

    • Thailand hasn’t had an unbreachable gulf between rich and poor for at least 20 years. These conflicts are about the rise of the middle class, not the war between the aristocrats and the proletariat.

    • Abhisit, with his thoroughly western and somewhat liberal background, shares the values of the west and is in fact more likely to bring about the social revolution needed by Thailand’s agrarian poor than any previous leader. He is, in fact, pretty red, while Thaksin, in his autocratic style of leadership, is in a way pretty yellow. Simplistic portrayals do not help anyone to understand anything.

    • the only people who do not seem to care about the reds’ actual grievances are their own leaders, who are basically making everyone risk their lives to see if they can get bail.

    • the King has said all that he is constitutionally able to say when he spoke to the supreme court justices and urged them to do their duty. The western press never seem to realise that the Thai monarchy is constitutionally on the European model … not, say, the Saudi model. The king REIGNS … he doesn’t “rule”. This is a democracy. The king is supposed to symbolise all the people, not a special interest group.

    The above are just a few of the elements that needed to be sorted
    through in order to provide a balanced view of what is happening in this
    country.

    There is one final element that must be mentioned. Most are not even
    aware of it. But there is, in the western mindset, a deeply ingrained
    sense of the moral superiority of western culture which carries with it
    the idea that a third world country must by its very nature be ruled by
    despots, oppress peasants, and kill and torture people. Most westerners
    become very insulted when this is pointed out to them because our
    deepest prejudices are always those of which we are least aware. I
    believe that there is a streak of this crypto-racism in some of the
    reportage we are seeing in the west. It is because of this that Baghdad,
    Yangon, and Bangkok are being treated as the same thing. We all look
    alike.

    Yes, this opinion is always greeted with outrage. I do my best to face
    my own preconceptions and don’t succeed that often, but I acknowledge
    they exist nonetheless.

    Some of the foreign press are painting the endgame as the Alamo, but it
    is not. It is a lot closer to Jonestown or Waco.

    Like those latter two cases, a highly charismatic leader figure (in our
    case operating from a distance, shopping in Paris while his minions
    sweat in the 94°weather) has taken an inspirational idea: in one case
    Christianity, in the other democracy, and reinvented it so that
    mainstream Christians, or real democrats, can no longer recognise it.
    The followers are trapped. There is a siege mentality and information
    coming from outside is screened so that those trapped believe they will
    be killed if they try to leave. Women and children are being told that
    they are in danger if they fall into the hands of the government, and to
    distrust the medics and NGOs waiting to help them. There are outraged
    pronouncements that they’re not in fact using the children as human
    shields, but that the parents brought them willingly to “entertain and
    thrill” them. There is mounting paranoia coupled with delusions of
    grandeur, so that the little red kingdom feels it has the right to
    summon the United Nations, just like any other sovereign state. The
    reporters in Rajprasong who are attached to the red community are as
    susceptible to this variant of the Stockholm syndrome as anyone else.

    The international press must separate out the very real problems that
    the rural areas of Thailand face, which will take decades to fix, from
    the fact that a mob is rampaging through Bangkok, burning, looting, and
    firing grenades, threatening in the name of democracy to destroy what
    democracy yet remains in this country.

    But this bad reporting is not their fault. It is our fault for not
    providing the facts in bite-sized pieces, in the right language, at the
    right time.

    This article has been republished with the permission of the author

  542. emcd

    panos – Ευχαριστώ !

    dah – Ευχαριστώ ! for next time and for all the inner support this time

    kurt – yes, but will be easier to say hello in the eves on the farm for me, not expecting to be in town much

    civi – “and the littlest bear said, and someone’s been eating my porridge…”

  544. jenny lynn walker

    BOB: Thanks for that. I must say that whilst it is extremely well written – not suprisingly coming from an author – the basic premise behind the thesis that poor reporting is down to a communication problem, a language problem, is absurd. Did the author consider that in the universities in Bangkok there are quite a number of people to turn to who speak exceptionally good English, and some of whom are native speakers themselves – and universities outside of the country as well. These people can, and do, provide very good information backed up by years of studying the situation – from between a decade to 20 years. In addition, for non-Thai speakers who are deeply interested, there is also a site where government announcements and press coverage is translated into English. I have not looked at that myself as I did not think it was necessary given that I was purely documenting people on the street – street photography really – but can probably track it down if anyone is intersted to go more deeply into it. Please let me know.

    “But this bad reporting is not their fault. It is our fault for not
    providing the facts in bite-sized pieces, in the right language, at the
    right time.”

    “… a mob is rampaging through Bangkok, burning, looting, and
    firing grenades, threatening in the name of democracy to destroy what
    democracy yet remains in this country.”

    Does anyone know if the author was actually in Bangkok at the time of the protest or reading about it in the newspapers? It is soooo sensationalist!

  545. jenny lynn walker

    Mr Vink,

    Thank you for complimenting me on the way I use natural light in my work. I really appreciated that – even though you did not state it publicly!

    Please send my best wishes to Agnes D.

    Jenny

  546. jenny lynn walker

    Brian: “Isn’t one of the main arguments against prostitution (at least in the US) is that the commonality of the prostitutes’ backgrounds? Poverty, drug abuse, sexual abuse lead to the choice not exactly being a free one?” Thank you for that!!!!

    Panos: If you can’t make it to ancient Greece, how about The World Cup – sounds like it could end up being a pretty close thing, in the context of this discussion. By the way, I am very keen on your Bangkok idea and am lining up some places in advance just in case you make it!!! ; )

  548. jenny lynn walker

    EMCD et al: “It is more fun to talk with someone who doesn’t use long, difficult words but rather short, easy words like “What about lunch?” Winne the Pooh. Isn’t that beautiful, and true! : )

  549. david alan harvey

    JENNY…

    again..please write a responsible story on BKK and back it up with strong photographs and we will publish it here as we did with Panos’ Greek protests….or, simply post a link with your work…curious to see something from you on these events with which you are so closely involved….

  550. Akaky

    Oh my God, that’s terrible news! Oh, I’m so sorry to hear of your troubles, Akaky, your Uncle Max, he was a good man, may he rest in peace. His troubles are over, poor man, and he’s in a better place. He didn’t suffer, I hope. Ah well, lad, it happens to us all, sooner or later. His time had come, that’s all, and [I really love this bit] things could have been much worse, you know [how? The guy died, for chrissakes, how does it get much worse than that?]

    The above is just a portion of the sort of thing you hear at an Irish wake these days, which is not the drunken bacchanal of the fevered non-Celtic imagination—we have St. Patrick’s Day for that sort of thing—but rather a somewhat somber event where you remember the dearly departed’s good points, gloss over the dearly departed’s not so good points, comfort the widow in her hour of grief and tribulation, and stare sharply at those members of the clan who didn’t get the memo about the Irish wake not being the drunken bacchanal of the fevered non-Celtic imagination. In Uncle Max’s case, however, much of what I’ve mentioned did not occur and when it did occur, the occurrence became an exercise in trying to keep a straight face. Everyone found glossing over Uncle Max’s not so good points something of a trial, as the only things most people who ever dealt with Uncle Max really remembered about Uncle Max was his not so good points. In short, Uncle Max was a complete shit.

    Saying such a thing about Uncle Max pains me deeply, a statement that falls somewhere between a campaign promise and a Spanish fly ad on the Albany, Chicago & Washington mendacity scale. I forget where Uncle Max stood in the birth order; I think he was the last or the next to last of my father’s siblings, not that it matters now, but anyone who ever met him agreed that Uncle Max was the handsomest, most charming bastard that they’d ever met in their lives. There is an Uncle Max in every family [I think]—the lovable rogue who gets away with stuff the other kids can only dream of getting away with. The problem with lovable roguery is that after a while, it gets tiresome and by the end of his life Uncle Max had gotten incredibly tiresome, and I don’t mean that in a good way.

    My first childhood memories of Uncle Max are set in the bucolic splendor of our happy little burg, where my parents had just bought a small vacation home where my brothers and me could spend our summer vacations having good clean fun instead of roaming the hot and gritty streets of the great metropolis thinking of new and ingenious ways of getting into trouble. At first, our enforced sojourn amid the fresh air and the green, green grass of not home had a profound psycholaxative effect on my brothers and I—we were bored absolutely shitless. But kids will be kids, after all, and soon we found things to do that were just as exciting as the things we could have done in the city. A burning barn, for example, may not provide the high drama of an apartment house fire, but the lack of tragic potential is more than made up for in comic possibilities; watching the local volunteer fire department trying to get itself organized and put out an actual fire was, in those far off days, one of the better shows on Earth. I should mention here, before the onslaught of angry letters from volunteer firemen and the ladies’ auxiliaries from one end of this our Great Republic to the other arrive on my doorstep, that our local volunteer fire department has become much more proficient at their job since the days of which I speak, and that my brother wishes to apologize yet again for setting that barn ablaze. It was, as he has maintained for the past forty years, an accident.

    Well, no sooner had our happy little family ensconced itself in our happy little burg than Uncle Max decided to pay us a visit. When he called my father, Uncle Max assured him that no, he wasn’t coming up to borrow money—he had plenty of money, thank you very much, and he didn’t need anymore, a claim my father doubted—fiscal responsibility, like almost any other form of responsibility you might care to mention, was not a virtue Uncle Max chose to cultivate with any degree of assiduity—but his brother being his brother, my father could not slam the door in Uncle Max’s face, even if that’s what my mother wanted him to do.

    Uncle Max called on a Tuesday, if I remember this right, and he arrived the next Saturday in a very large car. I don’t remember what model it was; it might have been a Cadillac, but I can’t really be sure now. He’d borrowed the money to buy this particularly conspicuous bit of conspicuous consumption from a loan shark; banks in those halcyon days of yesteryear disliked lending money to someone who could not repay the loan, a prejudice many bankers seem to have overcome in the years since these events occurred; and, as he would have done with the bank, Uncle Max chose not to repay the loan shark, an insouciant attitude towards the financial verities that the loan shark no doubt found irritating in the extreme. In order to convince Uncle Max of the many benefits of the free market system in general and the installment plan in particular, the loan shark dispatched two of his minions to cajole Uncle Max into seeing economic reason. Something must have gone wrong with the interview, as the two minions woke up in the hospital the next day being treated by doctors convinced they’d stepped in front of a moving truck. [N.B.: Uncle Max had a bit of a temper, as you may have guessed, and he was a boxer in his teens. He was also one of the strongest men I’d ever seen. I saw him bend a Kennedy half-dollar between his thumb and his index and middle finger when he was sixty years old.]

    As you might imagine, the loan shark was utterly aghast at this attack upon his employees and by his not getting the vig, although I suspect that latter aghasted him much more, if that’s even a word, than the former, and so our aggrieved Shylock sent forth squads of ill-intentioned men to find Uncle Max and show him the error of his ways, preferably in a very gory, painful, and public manner, lest Uncle Max’s example breed imitation amongst the rest of the loan shark’s clientele. Uncle Max, for his part, was also utterly aghast, possibly for the first time in his life, at the possibility that his actions might have adverse consequences, in this case very adverse consequences indeed, and so took this opportunity to vanish completely from the face of the earth.

    Six months later, Uncle Max re-emerged as…Uncle Moshe. For reasons best known to himself, Uncle Max decided that being a Hasid, complete with blond beard and long dark coat, was the perfect disguise for a very erstwhile Irish-American altar boy on the run from an unhappy mob-connected loan shark (is there any other kind of loan shark, I wonder). To advance the verisimilitude of the disguise, Uncle Max had acquired a truly outstanding command of the Yiddish language, speaking with almost perfect accuracy a dialect of that language unknown to the vast majority of Yiddish speakers past and present. Uncle Max’s Yiddish was Yiddish in much the same way that pouring ketchup on your spaghetti and meatballs is Italian cuisine.

    But the disguise must have worked; Uncle Max arrived on our doorstep one sunny Saturday afternoon in July all in one piece and without a scratch on him, his blond peyos fluttering in the wind, complete with the huge car that all the fuss was about and his Portuguese girl friend, Maria, and no, I have not counted the number of mitzvahs violated in either the letter or the spirit in the first part of this sentence. I don’t where Uncle Max met Maria and I am pretty sure I do not want to know. Maria could have been a gargoyle in another life and she could have been a gargoyle in this life as well, if she wanted the job. On the other hand, the two other things that really stood out about Maria really stood out, to the point that even I, at that tender age, wandered aloud if those things were real. My mother, ever the soul of etiquette, whacked me across the back of my head for my impertinence. To complete the inventory, it soon became self-evident that Maria’s English language skills were more than a little wanting; her contributions to the conversation were basically yes, no, please, thank you very much, and is that so, either singly or in some combination thereof. Whether she actually knew what these stock phrases meant is one of the great mysteries of modern times, but I suppose she meant well. She called Uncle Max “Moyshee” and she chain smoked cigarettes, often lighting a fresh cigarette with the still burning butt of her previous one, a once common habit here in this our Great Republic, and a fact I include here for its anthropological and historical interest to the younger readers. Maria and Uncle Max seemed very happy together, or as happy as a man who couldn’t speak Portuguese could be with a woman who couldn’t speak fake Yiddish.

    As my parents settled down around the kitchen table with Uncle Max and Maria, my mother told my brothers and me to go out and play until she called us in for dinner. This happened much more then than it does now, when parents feel that they aren’t properly parenting unless they are constantly annoying their children every minute of the day. We trooped out the front door and spent the next several hours doing whatever it was we were doing—I forget the details now, but it probably had something to do with riding our bicycles down a very steep hill and seeing if we could stop before we ran into a very high stone wall, an amusement my father banned a few years later after a series of mistimed stops resulted in several expensive broken bones, three concussions, and one broken nose. After that, we played a lot of baseball, which, while interesting in its own way, did not have the same thrill quotient for us that potentially fatal blunt force trauma did. On this day, though, we did manage not to break anything by the time my mother started calling us in to eat, but it was not for want of trying.

    I remember walking up the driveway when I heard something strange coming from the grass. I should point out here that at this time my home did not have a lawn in the conventionally understood meaning of that word, namely a largely pointless expanse of unnecessary foliage designed to give Mexicans of uncertain immigration status gainful employment. Instead of the trim, clipped green strip of your typical suburbanite’s darkest botanical fantasies, we had a wild, uncropped, uncut retro thatch of bush populated with ragweed stalks the size of dwarf sequoias towering over our heads and tall grass so impenetrable that a company of Viet Cong could hide out there for months on end without anyone realizing that Charlie had tunneled his way into the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    My mother called again, this time for me, and told me to find Uncle Max and his guest—that’s the word she used, guest. I said okay and I started down the path through the front forest; it seems ridiculous to call such a broad swath of flora a lawn, now that I think of it; to find them. I got halfway down the path and called for Uncle Max, whereupon I heard an immediate “Jesus frigging Christ!” It was Uncle Max experiencing not a sudden Pauline road to Damascus conversion from faux Judaism to faux Christianity, but rather him proclaiming the usual male response to kid induced coitus interruptus. Maria screeched something in response in what I guess must have been Portuguese—I don’t speak that language so I can’t be sure. There was a momentary pink flash of this and that; apparently they were real; and then the sound of my father shouting angrily at Uncle Max from the porch. My mother appeared miraculously from nowhere and whisked me away into the house, where she scolded me for reasons I did not fathom at the time and that she would not explain, and the evening and the morning were the last day I would see Uncle Max for a long time.

    And so Uncle Max is dead. I don’t know what happened to Maria; he may have married her; Uncle Max married several times, although I can’t say for certain that he ever divorced any of the wives. He died and his children wouldn’t pay for the funeral. They hadn’t seen or spoken to Uncle Max for thirty years and saw no reason to shell out money for their sperm donor. My uncles paid for the cremation and they put the urn in my grandmother’s coffin. Getting Uncle Max’s name embossed on the urn would have cost another fifty dollars, so my uncles didn’t bother; they printed Uncle Max’s name and vital dates on a post-it note with a magic marker and then taped the note to the urn. It’s not much, of course, but it’s a lot more than some people get.

  551. eva

    Ok, ALL, or those who know.. guess I’ve messed up.. question: seems I’ve overexposed by one full stop a roll (or two or three..) of Tri-X, rated at 400 asa, but EV was on +1. I tend to overexpose anyway by adjusting shutterspeed accordingly, but now I think it’s too much.. how do I develop the darned things, shortening the time? If yes, by how much? Or what? I do remember to have read something somewhere, but can’t find it..

    Note to self: never hand out a camera you’re shooting with. If you do, CHECK THE SETTINGS on the cam when you get it back. Before changing the batteries (’cause you think they might be half dead because of the too slow shutterspeed), CHECK THE SETTINGS. And before swearing at the cam, because shutterspeed still seems off, CHECK THE SETTINGS, all of them. Sigh.

    Dinner. Then back to read the postings. All of them.

  552. a civilian-mass audience

    After BOBBY and AKAKY…there is no dinner for me…
    I will be reading for quite some time…

    KATIE FONSECA,MY GRACIE,DAV