to have by daria endresen

havelarge2



























To Have and Not to Hold       Self Portrait by Daria Endresen


http://1x.com/member/2744/daria-endresen/

Published on April 4, 2009 by david alan harvey. 255 Comments

255 Responses to “to have by daria endresen”

Feed for this Entry Trackback Address
  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 6, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Here are some Critiquing Tips for your kind consideration:-

    1. State WHETHER you (like/don’t like/ are indifferent to) the image/essay…

    2. State precisely WHY you (like/don’t like/ are indifferent to) the image/essay…

    3. State any SUGGESTIONS, if any, from you how the image/essay could be improved…

    4. Any other RELEVANT REMARKS regarding the image/essay which you think is going TO HELP the photographer in future…

    These may sound a bit robotic and a blow on freedom of expression, but I think since we are trying to help each other here, keeping these general points in mind while commenting here would be helpful for everybody.

  • Patricia Lay-Dorsey
    April 6, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Thank you, Bodo.

    peace
    Patricia

  • Patricia Lay-Dorsey
    April 6, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    I would add to Bodo’s suggested Critiquing tips a most valuable tool called the question. In addition to stating our opinions, asking relevant respectfuul pertinent questions of the photographer can open doors rather than close them.

    Patricia

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 6, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Yes! Thanks Patricia for your suggestion. I am sorry that I forgot to mention this. ‘Question’ is undoubtedly a valuable tool so that we get some insight/thought from the photographer himself/herself about the image/essay.

  • Gorgias
    April 6, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    This line of comments has been particularly painful to follow. It is really unpleasant (to put it mildly) when people are trying to stifle opinions that differ from theirs by shamelessly attacking the character and personality of their adversaries, through pseudo-psychologizing and name-calling. This was the method of Goebbels. And it becomes even more egregious when this kind of fascist censorship assumes the guise of progressivism, in that the opponents are, on top of everything else, accused of being not only undersexed, repressed, gay, etc. etc., but also BENIGHTED in their supposed aesthetic CONSERVATISM. Just because they happen to not share the same opinion as the gentleman whose namesake is now surely spinning in his grave.

    And then, even more shamelessly, instead of the name-callers at least having the guts to stand behind their expressed slanders all the way, there are retractions and the lame excuse (that could only convince a 5-year old with a less-than-average IQ) that all was said in jest, for fun, so no harm done.

    I am pretty sure that my own personality is now next in line to be summarily executed, for being such a stickler and not knowing a harmless joke when I see one. However, perhaps DAH if no-one else should take into account that this kind of “dialogue” may appeal to a few people who are interested in engaging in some kind of fake group therapy over the internet, but is surely turning many away. And this is a huge shame, because burn can be, and has been, such a great forum for a really productive exchange of ideas.

  • david alan harvey
    April 6, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    BODO…PATRICIA…

    yes, good ideas….things here should be like the discussions i have had with both of you….Patricia first on line, then in person…and with Bodo on Skype and hopefully sometime in the future, in person…as i have said many times before, i just do not understand the “anger critique” factor when commenting on photographs …sure, not everyone is going to like everything, and i often post work that i know will bring controversy, but “anger”??? and it is very hard to respect someone writing who is not showing at least a modicum of respect towards a particular photographer….the freedom of expression inherent on the net brings in mostly very good comments pro and con…however, i think we are just often a bit shocked by some whose “online personality” is so revealing of some personal inner conflict which manifests itself in often cruel missives towards others….when reading the words of iconic critics, even when they “shred” a body of work, they do not personalize it to the degree we often see here….if they did, they would lower themselves, lose cred, in the minds of their own audience…on the other hand, all of us here who do participate in the discussion, owe it to ourselves and 95% of the readers here, to rise above the chaff and not get caught up unnecessarily in some weird “ego battle” with some who seem to be subconsciously fighting feelings of inadequacy…

    cheers, david

  • david alan harvey
    April 6, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    GORGIAS…

    we posted simultaneous and so i missed your comment….i agree with you completely…..i am curious to your suggestions on how to keep comments open and yet not be dragged down some muddy road that i do not want any part of in my life….controversy and disagreement totally welcomed of course…..that is part of a healthy discussion…but, to read the words of some who are just “venting” and having little to do with the work represented, just is not a “pretty picture”…..

    the only answers to this so far suggested are: (a) close comments period…have a separate blog, but comments closed on essays and singles (b) have an editorial monitor as almost all sites have…someone who screens out the UFO’s and the “rants for rants sake”…this is tricky however and will give rise to cries of “censorship”…..

    what do you think?? how should we do it???

    cheers, david

  • Patricia Lay-Dorsey
    April 6, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    I’m not Gorgias but would like to respond to your question, David…

    As you know I’ve long been a proponent of posting comments directly under the selected photos and essays. It generally worked at the start, with the few exceptions of course. But things seem to have deteriorated to the extent that I have little hope of the tone of critiques lifting out of the mud into which they have slid without some major overhaul. For that reason I’d suggest eliminating the comments option from selected photos and essays, at least temporarily, and trying what you’d originally suggested in terms of keeping comments solely under Dialogue and perhaps, Works In Progress.

    Burn is first and foremost a platform for sharing photographs and essays. It is too important a resource to lose readers because of comments like we’ve seen here of late. And, dammit, you and Anton are busting your butts on this project. Let’s give it the chance it deserves to be first class!

    Patricia

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 6, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    David

    I have a suggestion to the questions you have asked to Gorgias. It’s just an idea and is subject to others’ approval of course. I think this way we can reduce the menace.

    Here in burn, under the ‘Leave a Reply’ here, we have four boxes with 1. Name, 2. Mail, 3. Website, 4. A general box for comment. I would suggest further divide this 4th box into five separate boxes (if possible) something like the following:-

    1. State WHETHER you (like/don’t like/ are indifferent to) the image/essay…

    2. State precisely WHY you (like/don’t like/ are indifferent to) the image/essay…

    3. State any SUGGESTIONS, if any, from you how the image/essay could be improved…

    4. Any other RELEVANT REMARKS regarding the image/essay which you think is going TO HELP the photographer in future…

    5. QUESTIONS that you may ask the photographer on the image/essay…

    Note: A person may leave one or more of these boxes blank if he/she chooses to do so.

    In addition to this, put a General Critiquing Tips somewhere under Submissions on the right hand column.

    This way, (I think) we may have certain benefits:-

    1. It will remind the person putting a critique what general points he/she should keep in mind while commenting.

    2. It will also remind the person to put his comments which are not related to the image/essay at hand at some other specially designated place on burn.

    3. Close comments period should not be an option because everybody is not available at all times and the photographer may be deprived of a valuable comment just because the person critiquing was away when the image/essay was up on burn. My suggestion may cure this problem.

    4. I would also say that moderating comments is also not good option because it surely amounts to ‘censorship’ (which is not healthy for any discussion) and it will cost you guys a lot of time reading all the comments awaiting moderation and then decide which to keep and which not to keep. We don’t want to waste anybody’s valuable time. My suggestion may also cure this problem.

    Just my thoughts though…

    Cheers

    Bodo

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 6, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Oh…just an addendum:

    In the general discussions/comments page (unrelated to the image/essay at hand), ‘Leave a Reply’ rows could be kept as it is now…

    I don’t know how much it is possible in this site though. Need some technical guy to confirm.

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    Bodo, Patricia , trollers..
    Ok.. I agree ..
    We need moderation here ..
    All my respect but I think I should
    Be the Responsible Moderator here if you all
    Agree..
    I will do the sacrifice of 3 to 5 hours per day
    to approve or disapprove comments..
    I should be the “Saergent of Ethics”…
    Let’s vote..
    I want to contribute and keep this place “CLEAN”..
    I will sacrifice my time for ALL OF YOU..
    what do you all think???
    :))))???

  • Gorgias
    April 6, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    David, thanks for asking for my suggestions. As the matter is really serious, let me give it some more thought before I reply. Bodo has certainly offered some very interesting ideas.

    As to the latest posting by panos, so generously offering us his services as moderator, I honestly don’t know what to think. Can he possibly not have realized that a lot of this mess has been created singlehandedly by him? It seems he is not capable of accepting responsibility as an adult even for once, instead of keeping playing the clown. Let’s see how much more distasteful he can become. (note also the oh-so-subtle charge of censorship he again has the nerve to insinuate, in classic fascist-populist fashion, in talking of the “sergeant of ethics”).

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    Ok then.:)))
    How about “governor or Archibishop of ethics”..???
    I don’t know.. I don’t know..
    “chief of ethics” maybe!!
    Help me out Borgias..
    We can scratch the “saergent” off
    We need to..
    It’s ok with me..:))
    Big Hug!!!

  • A Fly (on the Wall)
    April 6, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Dear Mr. Harvey,

    The Civility Elvis has left the building long ago… he’s now back at Graceland, whacked out on Percodan and Southern Comfort, shooting up the teevee, smearing peanut butter and bananas all over himself. Drooling. Tomorrow, when he wakes up, it will be more of the same. Sad, isn’t it?

    You know what I’m saying… because the foul and angry comments have been going on for so long, without so much as a hint of consequence from you, it will be very difficult to raise the bar, to unring those many bells.

    Some suggestions:

    1. Though you must be loathe to do it (or you would have already), establish commenting guidelines, coming from you, the patriarch of the tribe, and the only one that people would listen to. Delete comments that are in violation (rather than moderate… less work) Setting limits or ground-rules is not censorship, just good parenting.

    2. Create user accounts to prevent people like me from commenting. Use the loss of privileges (temporary to permanent) as leverage to enforce civility.

    3. This would be fun: establish a separate “doghouse” blog where nasty commenters would be banished to duke it out, in public, for our amusement. What a hoot. Oh, and then we could wager on the outcome.

    4. Use shame. On second thought, that’s just a quaint idea at this point. Sorry.

    Or, yes… make Panos Generalissimo of Ethics and Chief Shit-stirrer In Charge. Priceless. Maybe he can wear a little hat, too.

    buzzing (off)…

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    “generallisimo”…
    That’s the word I was looking for..
    Thanks Troll-boy..
    :)
    Biggest hug.
    (.. Just between us.. If you vote for me..
    I’ll let u uncensored..:) who loves u know!!!??)

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    “generallisimo”…
    That’s the word I was looking for..
    Thanks Troll-boy..
    :)
    Biggest hug.
    (.. Just between us.. If you vote for me..
    I’ll let u uncensored..:) who loves u know!!!??)..

  • Haik
    April 6, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Fly – all of us have at some point been flies… just like you.
    You of all should know not to fly into the box. You should fear the BOX.

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Btw.. The only “fly on the wall”…
    I know is Dead.. It was Henri-Cartier-B..
    Henri.. Is that really you???? or just another wanabee?
    I wonder who needs a “hat” now..
    Laughing ( .. Driving..)
    :))

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 6, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    David, I could not agree more with Fly on the Wall’s suggestions (as well as his pessimism as to the value of the currency of shame these days – just look at the latest comment by the inimitable Protagoras).

    I don’t think comments should be closed, or made part of a separate blog (with the exception of the “doghouse” blog that Fly is proposing, which may be a great idea – but then again, even though this would be fun for the rest of us watching the action, part of burn would be running the risk of becoming reality tv). And even though bodo’s suggestions are obviously very thoughtful, they might end up being too restrictive. My suggestion, then, is simple: ANYTHING goes, as long as IDEAS are challenged, but PEOPLE NEVER ATTACKED as people. True, if one is a rotten character, their ideas may also be pretty lousy; but then, I would assume that LOUSY IDEAS ARE EASY TO CHALLENGE AND DEMOLISH AS IDEAS, WITHOUT HAVING TO RESORT TO CHARACTER ASSASSINATION re their originators. So, yes, “civility censorship” by all means: just delete comments that are disrespectful of others and of the concept of DIALOGUE as such. People who can only engage in that kind of commentary deserve no better.

    Having said that, of course, I realize what an added burden having to play censor will be to your time and attention; even as it is, I am infinitely impressed that you so generously devote so much time to burn.

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 6, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    by “the latest comment by Protagoras”, I meant the one immediately following Fly’s posting

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Borgias:)
    Is that a YES?
    r u voting for me?
    U C I’m driving and
    The only word I could clearly
    read from your latest comment
    was ASSASSINATION..???
    Super big hug..
    :) please vote for my
    “generalissimo” position you offered me
    earlier…
    I’m begging u:)

  • Mike R
    April 6, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    When DAH posted recently about angry comments and the fact that if it became claustrophobic here he was off, prompted me to write a post that was, unfortunately, lost (probably because I posted to often). It went something like this …

    I remember watching a BBC television programme which coincided with the launch of the Magnum book “In Our Time” (before you joined Magnum, I believe, David. I remember a specific scene where the head of Magnum, New York, shows a dummy of the book to a magazine editor (I think). “Here it is” he said, “It’s got blood all over it!”. In another scene, two new members are accepted into Magnum. One of the new members is approached by another Magnum member: “Welcome to the argument” he said, “I disagree with you!”. The point is, that like all families, the Family-Burn will disagree, sometimes explosively and usually over something said that, if it was said by someone “not-family” would be disregarded as someone-else’s-opinion-so-what.

    People here have noted that the blog is not always the easiest way to understand someone’s intention – you can’t see their smile.

    To specifics: the comments below each published photograph or essay are what make Burn special. The fact that the comments eventually wander onto other things is what entertains so many people (think Panos and China).

    As photographers (and human beings) I think that we should be polite to each other. We don’t have to like every genre of photography; we may even consider some genres (choose your expletive) but we should at least say WHY. Jim Powers raised the blood pressure of a few continents with comments such as (choose your Jim-comment) (come back Jim; my blood pressure needs you). By this I mean that he would say “don’t like it” but not WHY!

    I sometimes post on Leica User Forum (but very rarely) and Burn. Burn is special. It is an intelligent place of education. For the young photographer, just starting, it is a place to see quality photography from genres that they didn’t even know existed! It could take them years to stumble around in Sticksville before finding themselves.

    Let’s remember what a great resource we have here and respect what we have.

    Best to all,

    Mike.

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    Mike…
    I second everything u say..
    Places like the Leica forum are
    like old governent radio..
    We are the new Sattelite radio..
    without charge.. Free.. Uncensored..
    Entertaining…
    What we are doing here NOW..
    our new, revolutionary style..
    People will COPY US..
    someday even BURN will be another STANDARD..
    just like Leica forum or old tv..
    And that will be my last DAY here..
    Maybe 10 or 20 years from…
    But till that day… No worries..
    I’ll be here doing my late night show..
    As long as the flame keeps BURNing..
    I’ll be here..
    Thank u Mike R..
    Peace and big hug for my good
    friends in BEIJING..

  • Haik
    April 6, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Gorgias –
    you bring up a good point but you are not defining what an attack on a person is? Calling names? Disagreeing in a certain “loose and not so eloquent” manner? How can one know what makes me or someone else feel attacked – can you define that? Can David, or anyone else in charge define a proper censorship such that it, by itself, does not constitute an attack towards the person that is “disagreeing”?
    It’s a circle. I would better learn to get attacked if it feels as an attack and respond properly within myself rather than confining someone else to be what (s)he is not. Let it all loose – internet is an anarchistic environment since there are no fists involved. That is very well defined and is pretty mature.

    cheers

  • erica mcdonald
    April 6, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    Be good, do good.

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    Thank u Haik for trying to educate the attention seekers..
    Don’t worry though.. They’re not
    Really offended..
    Bull…
    They just want a piece of the PIE..
    but they bring nothing to the table..
    Except police and church old used up rules..
    They’re not offended..
    A little attention they seek..
    … but with the wrong way..
    Instead of going out there and shoot..
    They’d rather sit here for hours reading my
    bullshit…!
    Laughing..!

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Erica I agree..
    Tell the trolls to take their cameras
    and go out and shoot..
    Why reading my stupid comments and then try
    to change me and convert me?
    To all Trolls..
    Just ignore me.. It’s that easy..
    ( but no, they won’t do it.. Not because I’m interesting..
    No, no.. But just because they are lazy..)

  • david alan harvey
    April 6, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    FLY…GORGIAS

    first of all, thanks for taking the time to think this over…i occasionally will jump in and disagree with something someone says, but you are right , i have never really admonished anyone….for one thing, i am not always “on” and usually see a string of comments long after they have been written…and i suppose also my aversion to censorship runs stronger than my ability or desire to monitor…i did say some time ago that i would delete inappropriate UFO’s….you FLY are a UFO, but not inappropriate….there are several writers here who choose to remain anonymous and most of the regular ones often add some real insight as do you…

    MIKE R…

    thanks for this…and it is in this spirit that i keep going….

    cheers, david

  • Lassal
    April 6, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    DAH

    “…and it is in this spirit that i keep going….”
    good to hear this. I have to admitt that I was starting to worry a bit…

  • Lassal
    April 6, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    But then again … I worry all the time, don’t I?
    :-)))

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 6, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    David A H…
    Lassal…
    Thank u ofcourse
    “wink”…
    :))))

  • Lassal
    April 6, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Daria …
    I think you invested a lot of work into this piece and you did a good job with it. It all speaks the same language and fits together smoothly. I especially appreciate that you transformed the butterflies into moth like beings … Which I cannot imagine happened accidentaly, as probably nothing in this picture happened by accident.

    What I notice is all the space around the elements … But yes, it works for your composition and for what I think you want to convey.

    Only one suggestion from my part – and this might not even be necessary due to the fact that you probably did this for print and we are seeing a very, very small version of it: the hair! Specifically the (how would you call this in English?) the “ends” of the hair. At least here it looks too solid, too heavy … as if you have taken your portrait laying down on your bed or floor or maybe you pasted this part in later. I think if you worked a little on the ends of your hair, if you made it looser, more realistic in a way, and at the same time … I mean it is in a way gong into the butterfly-moth area, they are flying into the light … I think you could visualize this a tiny bit better and then this image would be perfekt!

    :)

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 6, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    Haik…
    what I mean by “attacking”? Take a look at Panos’ latest comments. Instead of really accepting other people’s opinions as equally valid as one’s own, and trying to engage with those opinions on the level of argumentation, the smear campaign goes on. If you dare disagree or express some criticism, you are an “attention seeker”, a “troll” who is “too lazy to pick up a camera”, etc., etc. That’s what I mean by attacking other people’s personalities instead of their opinions. This kind of laughable, crude, infantile pseudo-psychologism. Unfortunately, but understandably, I am guessing that it is even harder for David to censor this kind of unproductive input when it comes from people whom he is fond of (I mean it’s probably harder over and above your stated aversion to censorship, David). Too bad for the rest of us, who have to put up with these angry and rude ramblings.

  • andrew b
    April 6, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    “This kind of laughable, crude, infantile pseudo-psychologism”

    Panos, I think you have a new description ;)

    Seriously…@ALL

    While the number of rude/inappropriate/justplainstupid remards are regrettable, I personally feel that an informed, caring, intelligent community will self-police. I think moderation in forums leads to vanilla comments and mediocrity. Even if comments are not blocked/removed, people will be more conscious of “oh, I can’t say that, I might offend someone….”. Sometimes hard truths offend. Sometimes people are better at conveying hard truths so they don’t come across as offensive. And sometimes, people who are just jerks will comment just to offend. My opinioin is that we should reward/encourage those who can speak their truth with least offense, try and guide those who see their truth but may present it in less than acceptable ways, and ignore the jerks. Sort of like high school ;)

    I also do not like the idea of “pre-formatted” responses. First, not everyone writes in that way, and while those are all important components of a review, I don’t think the comments should be foreced like that. Secondly, even if they are forced that way, anyone who really wants to “stir up flames” can still simply write whatever they want in the boxes….and if we say “oh, well, if you don’t write the right thing in the box, then your comment isn’t posted….” we’re well down (again, in my opinion) the slippery slope to bland vanillaness created by moderation….

    We’re all grown ups (sorry panos, try as you might you’re still a grown up ;). While there have been times I have felt that perhaps the photographers who’s comment section gets somehwhat muddled have every right to be mad/feel violated/etc, it seems that each time they step in and calmly dismiss the crass “noise” and thank those who have contributed positively. If they are ok with the way things are, then what are we all griping about?!?

    Anyway…I value the community that is burn – and trust that simple respect of each other and the calling out of the “jerks” will lead us in the right direction…

    Twice before I’ve quoted the excellent description of dah’s “house” that was road trips….I won’t post it again..but those of you who were around then know what I’m speaking of, and I think it’s that spirit that will continue to keep us on track….there are all sorts of things happening at once. Isn’t that the idea?

    Daria, I am sorry to have put this lengthy post in a place that should be all about your work. I have to say that I admire your craftmanship, and your skill (self taught! I need to know how to do that!), and while this image is not exactly my cup of tea (a bit too romance-novel cover-ish for me), I have to admit that I did come back to it several times and say “almost….but”. And several of your other works from your web site I like muchly. No matter my opinion, you are most certainly a skilled artist.

    My best regards to all, and especially to bob b and Mike B who I hope to see whilst I am here in toronto…

    good light, all
    A.

  • andrew b
    April 6, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    and erica, I think you summed up my feelings in those four words….bravo.

  • david alan harvey
    April 6, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    ANDREW B….

    hmmmmm, you seem to be a sane man and diplomat to boot……thank you….

    cheers, david

  • andrew b
    April 6, 2009 at 11:18 pm

    It is you who deserve the thanks, David, for being the fire behind burn….without the fire of your passion and your generosity of time and spirit, it simply would not be.

    I very much look forward to meeting you at LOOK3….I actually tried to rearrange my flights to get to NYC yesterday, but was unable.

    And as I have offered before, if there is anything I can do to be of some little assistance here, please let me know – you have my email and my skype info as well. If not, let me know and I will forward it post-hastily.

    Now to sleep in this snowy, northern city…

    good night-light, all.

    A.

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 7, 2009 at 1:51 am

    Andrew…
    ( love u man )…
    U called it right ..
    Community police.. Call the TROLLS out..
    Or ignore them…
    Then tell that overweight Borgia fatso to prove his
    Bad breath attacks with photos..
    Then.. and only then I will totally accept his
    Stinking Foul Breath…
    Not joking!

  • panos(protagoras)
    April 7, 2009 at 2:04 am

    Cmon Borgia..
    My name is PANOS SKOULIDAS
    And my work is about filthy VENICE BEACH bitch!
    What is your name?
    And what is your WORK????
    that’s all I’m saying!
    You called my name a thousand times the last 24 hours..
    Here I am “naked”…
    Rape me…!

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 8:18 am

    As I predicted in my very first posting yesterday: “I am pretty sure that my own personality is now next in line to be summarily executed”. Thank you so much, Protagoras. QED.

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 7, 2009 at 8:25 am

    i am extremely unhappy and sad to see that things are coming to this!!!

  • ben roberts
    April 7, 2009 at 8:54 am

    did you honestly expect anything better from panos?

  • david alan harvey
    April 7, 2009 at 11:20 am

    PANOS…BEN…GORGIAS

    c’mon boys….testosterone works for some things but damn it sure does make for some rough riding here…now, i know very well that if you three were all having a beer together, this would not be happening..it just would not…my suggestion is please take it easy …calm down….blame it all on me or something….now, look at it this way…i have invited ALL of you here to my space so to speak….and surely you know by now that i welcome all of you with your disparate points of view, station in life, whatever…i mean we are talking about pictures for heavens sake….there are ISSUES “out there” , but surely we should be discussing a subject we all love…we all practice….we all share…personal attacks seem out of place in a forum about something as esoteric as photography…Panos does play the protagonist at least on the surface, but would be the first to make both of you, Ben and Gorgias, comfortable in a “real life” situation(almost all of the Panos fans here all know him in person)….all three of you are capable of saying something which might “trigger” the others to say something you just would not say if standing in the same space…am i right about that??? in any case, i would suggest that rather than be dismissive of each other, you might try to just find some common ground or go silent….no no no, you will never like the same kinds of work…and maybe yes, you would be standing at opposite sides of the room at a party..but if all of you would be kind enough please to just make THIS ROOM a bit more comfortable for everyone else, i would most appreciate it….thank you…

    cheers, david

  • ben roberts
    April 7, 2009 at 11:57 am

    David

    I’m sorry but I don’t really want to be compared to someone who is incredibly erratic and insulting to people who he has never met. Maybe with Panos it is all “tongue in cheek” – but it is becoming increasingly tiresome. did you see the first 5 posts on Peter Tonningsen’s image? I felt for Peter – having the thread taken over by someone’s self centred drivel. While I can be blunt in my critique, I’m pretty sure that I don’t use obscenities and insults towards others.

    Ben

  • ian aitken
    April 7, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    I would like to say great retouching, nice feel to the image and good thought behind it, but it’s not my cup of cha.

    and now I must apologise for going off topic….

    DAH
    you have a great way of cutting through the B/S without being condescending.

  • david alan harvey
    April 7, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    BEN…

    you are quite correct and i did not mean to compare you to anyone in the sense of the WAY you use language….you have never been insulting nor do you use obscenities…being the astute man that you are, i was hoping that you would simply see that i was making a plea for peace….

    cheers, david

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    David, I will also take exception to being put in the same bag as Panos. This is really unfair. I have been trying to make a plea for exactly the same kind of civil ability to disagree that you also are advocating. If you look at all my posts since yesterday, you’ll see that I have been consistently trying to argue a point, and did not insult anyone by calling them “bitch”, “lazy”, “overweight with stinking foul breath”, etc. to argue my case. Forgive me for saying this, but it would seem that you are letting your personal feelings for Panos cloud your judgment regarding where responsibility falls for this.

    Having said that, I second that you are an incredibly gracious and cool-tempered host who has welcomed us all in this forum, and I hear your plea for peace. I also wish nothing more. Please keep in mind that I did not have any disagreement with Panos about Daria’s photo to begin with. I only stepped into the discussion yesterday, because I could no longer put up with the insults Panos had been throwing at other discussants, and thus spoiling the discussion for many of us who had been following it (even if some were not actively participating in it).

  • bb(homer)
    April 7, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    All:

    just a brief (promise) offer of a white flag. In truth, I feel partly responsible for the original momentum of the discussion here. I fear that some of my original comments might have misconveyed my reaction to those photographers who disliked or were uninspired by this work. When i write at Burn (as I did at Road Trips, Lightstalkers, ArtPost, foto8 or Magnum), I have always over-written, to the point of incredulity (my wife) and dismay (the readers, colleagues, fellow commentators). Partly because I am a writer and often writing here quickly typing between other work/travels, but also because my life as an artist and writer has been born out of conversation/dialog/dicussion/philosophy. Sadly, i often bring to bare here the training (poor as it may) of argument/dialectic/grapple (were it only grappa! ;). When I challenged Ben originally, i NEVER meant to insult him or his point of view, nor any other viewers/photographers who did not see the same value or merit of the work. I feared (and still fear) that much of what i wrote did a disservice to the discussion.

    Ben is an intelligent guy and an intelligent photographer and while i dont always agree with him and i do sometimes find his ‘blunt’ treatment of work too quickly observed (then again, my own writing is too fucking ham-fisted), i do respect him as a photographer and contributor to burn. He also happens to be friends with or knows my best friend Arantxa Cedillo and so, he cant be all that bad ;)). And Ben, if you ever meet Arantxa, you’ll know im nowhere near the overly didactic, pompous emotional drama-queen probably people thing i am, based on my posts.

    I have often failed, here at Burn, to couch my triestes in a way to make ALL viewers comfortable, challenged but unthreatened. I think ideas MUST challenge and we are nothing, in truth, without thought and attention and discussion: discipline and attunement. I meditate and the first lesson of this is to build toward equanimity and awarness: awareness above all and our connection to ourselves and to others. Often, as i did this weekend, i wrote ‘unmeditatively’ ;)) and probably angered people who i never intended to anger (Herve, who knows exactly which of my buttons to push ;)), but of whom I still have great great affection for, Joe, who i respect even when we disagree on 99% of the discussion, Kathleen, etc) or upset. I think I am partly to blame for my emotional and incendiary and long-winded ‘arguments’….I have never ever intended to make anyone feel unwelcome, nor have i ever intended to vitiate anothers’ point of view. As Herve has reminded me often enough, my written language here tends to appear as if i’m trying to prove other wrong or to ‘teach’ …that’s never my intend…discussion is essential, we are sentient communicating creatures…and we need language as much as we need fowl, beast and farm…we’re framed by it…but, let us still remember that photography IS NOT so important, and that ideas of intellect are not so important as to inflict hurt and disdain…

    i’ve been an emotional drama queen at times, but that’s all about web communication…in real life (yes Andrew, see u manyana), im pretty relaxed, and laugh alot more than one might think…i actually never lecture or harrangue…i save that for burn ;)))…

    and even David and i have had our ‘moments’ and yet he and i are pretty close and consider him a member of my family…and in the end, that’s all that we have to remember…it’s just a stupid, innocuous and anonymous web and what really matters is that we do respect others and do allow for dissent and do take responsibilities…

    we are nothing without one another…

    and so, as one of the blowhards who tossed the first cannon ball over the bow, i want to say that I am sorry if anything i wrote about ideas flamed up any of this shit, i am sorry. long after all of this is gone and the web has morphed and each of us are toothless and wobbly, they’ll be others spitting and ranting and how funny and how silly they will seem to us….

    I dont mind seeming absurd to others, but i do not wish others to think absurdly of themselves and so, i hope that all viewers and all commentators can come to this beer/chai/vodka/whiskey/weed/wine/soda/soy stained party deck, and enjoy the air…

    god damn, life is too rich and people too essential to bog it down…

    ok, someone, pass me the _____________________ (fill in the blank)

    running to meditation
    hugs
    b

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Bob/Homer:

    you should not be apologizing at all. Strong as your opinions are, you always take the trouble to argue them exhaustively, and never resort to insults and expletives. Without creative disagreements, we could never move forward. I have been arguing against personal insults and character assassination PRECISELY because such intimidation tactics leave no room for real disagreements that could dialectically move us forward.

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    call for peace…
    ( when the Trolls reveal their “real” names then yes..peace will prevail…:)))))))))))

    but until then:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCS14PoQc2M

    :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply

You must login to post a comment.