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Little pieces of us
When I was still not even a teenager, I lost my mother to breast cancer. I still remember the night she died vividly, its an image etched in my mind that will stay there for a long time. There are other images too, of happy times and of sad times, memories that were strong enough to survive. However, as time passes, these memories fade. This is probably good on some level, but it also robs us of the fundamental building blocks of our life.
After my son was born, I realized that this would continue. As time passed, small details that gave me joy were forgotten, evaporating away, their place taken by new memories that inevitably also faded away. I realized then that it was up to me to try and collect these little pieces, to give them a permanence that my memory could not.
And so my collection began. Trying not so much to chronicle important dates and events, birthdays or visits to a doctor. Instead, I wanted to capture images that communicated the feeling of the moment, a drive home in the pouring rain, or a moment of uninhibited play.
Photographs: Rafal Pruszynski
Website: www.flickr.com/photos/jinju/
and the ‘pornography’ lay where??
just waking up…
everybody attacks PORN left and right….
whats wrong with porn?
I love good “porn”…. as long as its “good”
and not tacky..
Porn is honest… Porn wants to sell…
nothing wrong with that…
In the end, it was just a project. He “couldn’t stay in Greenland forever.” And then he left Sabine, and hunting, and living off seal blubber behind, and went to Tokyo. And immersed himself as passionately in another project. And produced another book. And here are these images, laying like the dead dog he stumbled over in a blizzard. Sorry, this just doesn’t work for me.
Bob, i will second that:
“…. There is a profound difference between Sabine and Little Pieces.,
i asked myself the same question, as both a husband and a photographer: why are the pictures so ‘composed’?, what does the woman here often seem the ’same’: as stylized parts to make up a photograph. I didnt see or feel a range of emotion, more like clinical detachment. Some great photographs (compositionally), some wonderfully quirky ones (with face washing mask), some hilarious ones (the cover shot) etc, but i didnt (still do not) see a wider range of emotional images: fear, joy, sadness, doubt. I do see ennui, laughter, sexual ecstasy. In this essay we only see her face 3 times, and one of those times is during sex (i presume), out of 14 times when she is in a picture…3 out of 14…the other 11 times we her face (if shown) is covered (hand or paper or pillow) or we see her legs, toes, stomach, back, backside, side of the body (thigh, breast) etc…the same is often true in the larger edit, although there are more pictures of her face. I found then and still find this the MAJOR problem of the essay and the entire work: she does appear as an appartus, a photographic tool. The pics are overly composed and we see her not as a woman/wife/person, but as a part of a photograph. This is very different than in sabine, where along with the photos of her without her face or expression (legs, back, breast, thighs, etc) we gets lots of pictures of her face and her emotion of the moment and with the camera….
I dont see “Sabine” here either….
Does this mean Rafal is ‘objectifying’ his wife. I do not think so at all. To begin with, Rafal is a ‘cold’ photographer. Cold may sound too harsh, so i’ll say he is an ‘analytic’ photographer: all of his work is ‘composed’…
i see that too… photos look staged…..(like the skirt marilyn monroe photo looks shot over and over…)
too theatrical…laughing… go ask Sabine to do something like that if you dare…
Rafal’s work is NOT Sabine, Rafal’s work is an examination of his family, not his place in a community that is not his home…
( now seriously who the fuck compared Sabine with “little pieces” in the first place… thats a serious joke…laughing!
…..I am NOT surprised that the shot with her bum and son is her favorite, because to her, it’s probably one of pride: not only hilarious……
yes, enough critique on the opener photo..
I WILL TOTALLY AGREE WITH JARED also…
its just a hilarious , funny photo ( actually the least “cold” photo of that essay )..
but provoking? Sobol like???????????
oh pleaseeeeeeee…. people get it together…
and in the end, none one us can stay anywhere and with anyone forever and he while he did start off to live and photograph Greenland he did not start off to make a story about a young woman and a community he would fall in love with and he left Greenland and he returned to Greenland and his ‘project’ changed because he had changed and his life had changed and that book is his testament and it still makes up, as she does, a part of who he was and who he is (have you listened to what jacob has said) and he moved to another city and he has another life and he has produced another book and both he and sabine and the people of the community have continued and have lives and then there is we who have books and albums and folders and harddrives and blogs and facebook accounts and memories filled with all the photographs and all the images of all the people we have loved and lost and left and all the people who have loved and lost and left us and we accumulate them and we sing and shout of them and we forget them and we begin anew and we speak of them and of the new and of the lost and of the refinding and we stumbled over god damn every moment and person in our life and we are the same and Jim you are the same, you have left like dead dogs in the blizzard those people in Tyler county the moment you will not think of them for each of thinks and remembers and then forgets all moments and all people unless they return to us like an abacus of dust and it is a grotesquely cynical breed you spire to imagine that because jacob has not remained in Greeland nor wed to Sabine that he has failed her failed them and used them all like small, green dice. The pictures and story may not work for you (fair enough), to suggest that they are pornographic, that he used them and left them to rot as a carcass, is a pretty ignominious perspective….
open your drawer, read any old love letter that you may still posses, and square it rounding with that….have you deceived because that young person you once wrote so lovingly about long ago is no longer partnered to your life?…..
you have an incredibly narrow band of sight it seems to me….laying dead, stumbled over in a dust storm…
Great thread. Right now, I wish that some would question why they think that way or see something “off” in Rafal’s pictures. Like, before I speak about sexuality, gender, and sexism from looking at a picture, I will ask myself why I think that or this way. There are hundred of ways to look at the title picture, and if someone was to buy the book on some… Well, ass-umption… Rafal, your publisher will have to deal with a lot of returns, and false advertising…. ;-)
Jim, I am not sure about Sobol exploiting his subject, but yes, it’s a valid question (and should never been taken off the table, in photography). This is not the only question coming to mind with “Sabine”, unrelated to the photographic treatment.
Yet, it is quite different with Rafal. We have just about no questions on their relationship, the location, the bi-cultural, and ethnic, union, we do not question any of it, but only as he is treating it photographically and proposes it to us. We do accept that they love each other, and are a tight family, taken for granted (almost to the point that Rafal makes, that there may be little to talk about, really). It’s a big difference!
Actually, Rafal, we may wonder if some of the tension that is inherent in any arrangement of people living together (so artfully rendered in Mann’s case), here family, is not dangerously missing, for sustained interest. Or do you see where it is in your shots that we are not, or not yet, aware of.
I see where you find Sobol influencing, but for me, your almost zen (asian) POV (objects and placement will become ever more important as you progress, but it is there already, as well as eschewing too much expression, may of your shots cut off or shade the face, or it’s sleeping, or turning its back, your son more reflective than playful, etc…. all very interesting things I wonder if others noticed too) is drastically opposed to his treatment.
Has anyone else noticed that there is a missing “piece” in our discussion of Rafal’s essy? Why are we so focused on the photos of his wife or the non-photos of him while almost totally ignoring the photos of his son? I just went back to count the number of frames where the little boy appears and he is in 10 out of 25, some of which are stellar IMO. For instance, #18 with his hand grabbing the bare sheet on which are two of his toys says so much to me about our human relationship to the material things we love. Besides the diagonal thrust and minimalist imagery is quite to my taste.
I personally think we’re missing the forest for the trees. In our obsession with gender issues, sexuality and objectification of subjects, we are missing the flow of this edit. I won’t say the essay itself since I see that as a much larger, more in-depth body of work (see Rafal’s gallery on Flickr). And yes, Rafal will grow and mature, as will we all (I hope), but what he has created here is an authentic reflection of this place and time in his life as a photographer, husband and father.
It is also the result of a conscious collaborative effort between him and his wife. How can we judge that? Who are we to say that the photo she loves the best–the cover photo–is prurient, demeaning and an example of Rafal’s macho possessive attitude towards his wife? Maybe we would feel that way if we were its subject, but we’re not. Rafal’s wife IS and she likes it. Why can’t we respect her right to determine how she will be seen here? Is she not capable of making her own decisions?
Rafal has really kept his cool after having been called a lot of things, not the least of which was “macho” over and over. And he has explained his decisions as photographer in the most undefensive way. Rafal, I admire you for that. I doubt if I could have been as restrained in the face of such harsh criticism, not just of my photographic choices but my very way of being in relationship with my spouse.
This is a good discussion, obviously one that has engaged strong feelings. I just think we need to reread Rafal’s responses before we add our views. In many cases, he will have already answered our questions.
Patricia
Sorry, I missed a whole page. I can read some women questionned Rafal’s stand beyond its project treatment.
Gee, when his son is 15, I hope he will be a lot more open-mided than you, whoever said that. He might even want to e-amil you his opinion the…
I am reminded of what Nicholas Nixon (I hope it was him) said: “the world is infinitely more interesting than my opinion of it”. I do think this fits in so perfectly.
PANOS:
if anybody knows a japanese porn movie that the female takes “charge”,
and not just being raped… please send me link………
—————
I have been looking all night, Panos, and can’t find one yet. Maybe tonight…. :-)))))))))))))))))
Herve
I agree..
You must be totally CHRISTIAN to
see anything provocative at this essay..
Provocative ??? Oh please..
Plain , nice family photos..!
That’s all..
I didn’t see any PORN ( I wish)..
Laughing…
No sobol or Goldin…
People get over it…
Go to church or something..
Everybody in Greece walks around naked or
at least topless..!!!
Sobol- like?
Again.. Danger.. Provocation ?
From a nice mom and a cute baby ???
Family photos my fellow Christians..
Just good Ol’ family photos…
Jeeesus come down and help us ..
Please!!!!
Again… Porn?? Ohhhh .. I wish…!!!!
ok.. Back to the hospital now..
I got serious things to do than debating
with Christians …!
Laughing…
One last thing..
HERVE you
Cracked me up with that
“false advertisment” thing…
That was funny!
Rafal, mistery to me. Jim says the title picture is a composite (2 pix artificially put together, so that your son was not exactly near his MUm’s crotch, which makes gasp in wonder what would be wrong with that. Why this over-sexualization of a relationship that started for 9 mnoths as close as possible to that crotch), of course not. Yes?
Bob, agree with everything you said. Dserves to be said!!! ;-)
Bob :
“I WANT TO SEE MORE LAUGHTER, MORE SADNESS, MORE OF THE TOTALITY OF LIFE OF FAMILY”…..yes …more emotions.. if you follow the Sobol path…
or:
Rafal, why don’t you simply close the books you have read/seen about Sobol, Mann etc and just do your very own thing which you have started to do ?
Herve :)))
ALL: 1 last thing (promise), just returned from shopping with my son…and now, off to work on my own for 2 days, but yes, as Patricia CORRECTLY points out, the pictures of his son vs. pictures of his wife make for a very interesting dynamic (in some sense i see the pics of his son as self-portraits in a way)…and also, i think Rafal’s other Family series (Family Ties) offers another fleshed out version of family life: i’ve always looked at this series (wife and son) with the series about Family (rafal’s wife’s family) as the same piece, and maybe in that sense, i see the work more as an entire exploration (including his being an outsider)…..it will be nice to hear Rafal (i is even less shy than i about writing, but much more succinct ;) ), and the interesting thing related to Patricia’s point with regard to his son: why is the son less an ‘abstraction” or ‘visual’ element than the wife….maybe that is something that cannot be answered…(a question i often ask myself when i shoot my wife and son or self: part of our underlying psyches probably)….
ok, enjoy the chat, gotta split for 2 days….
running (for real)
b
Maybe, but Rafal told us he is not about to over-explain (dwelve deeper) the meaning of, and behind (no pun intended :-)!), his images, and therein. There are clues to open up to his world as he presents it (if succesful at it), but that is up to us, the viewer and reviewers to pick them and extend our understanding and appreciation of his work. Rafal is only responsible as to how they become paramount to appreciate his photography, whole. not to answer every why.
I’d add IMO, but really, all of us, we do not want to be both the artist and “critique” of our own work. Be on the couch and on the analyst chair. To each its own duty….
PATRICIA…
thank you…well said….
Herve :)))…Amen…100%…ok, running ;))
RAFAL…
your answers for the comments here are terrific…thank you again…your intent and your work and your eloquence match ….
the only question i have is that you and others keep referring to “the whole essay..the whole body of work” over on Flickr… you have stated a couple of times here on this thread that there might be more understanding IF there simply had been more pictures or other pictures…why did you choose not to give us everything that you thought was important???
i ran this story exactly as you told me was your perfect edit….yes??? some time ago you did ask me to edit down…and i made a tight edit of about 20…you then, as i recall,a la your ping pong analogy, added back about 10…..the original edit i made was mostly taking out what i thought of as duplicates…photographs that basically replicated what you had “said better” with another image…
i do not recall taking out anything that was “another aspect” of your life as far as i could tell…but, it is your life and i would obviously not be aware of every nuance…in any case, my recollection is that we both totally agreed to the edit presented here…i assumed this was exactly what you wanted to say to the readers of BURN…
perhaps you were thinking brevity for the sake of the net and the generally negative reaction here on BURN to essays longer than about 25 images…this is generally true, but there have been exceptions….in any case, if you want me to add more or have a secondary link , i will be happy to publish as you like…after all, this is your show…
cheers, david
@Jim Powers: if you find Sabine pornographic you are not living in the reality that the vast majority of progressive people on earth are living in.
JIM…
i agree with Bryan…who wouldn’t agree with Bryan?? well, er, yes you Jim…Sabine pornographic??? i mean really…now you should know, or probably do know, that Sabine brought Jakob into Magnum as a nominee….we discussed many things about both Jakob and his work and about Sabine…there is never 100% consensus in Magnum about anyone, so not everyone was in favor of Sobol…but, there was not one word, even among the Sobol dissenters, that somehow Sabine was pornography…even when i disagree with you Jim, i usually see from whence you come, but not on this one….
KATHARINA…
i think Rafal knows, or will soon realize, that he soon must close the books on the very photographers who influenced him most…they were his first step, but cannot be his last….but, i think we should let him enjoy his first step….if he grows the way he says he wants to grow, then he will evolve tangential to his mentors….he will add or subtract as per the evolution of his own voice…
cheers, david
David, I think it’s pornographic because I think Sabine, and the whole village for that matter, were used by Sobol. And the photos he took of Sabine were made pornographic by this use. Yes, it was a life experience. But, Sobol knew this was a project. By his own admission he knew he couldn’t stay in Greenland forever. So he had a little adventure. Became part of the village. Took a lover. Made emotional connections. But with the full knowledge he was there only for a short time. Adventure with security. And then he published a book. And went to Tokyo for the next project. Ah, well. Life goes on. A means to an end.
You (generic you) can’t play games with people’s lives in the name of photography.
JIM…
everything you just said makes sense..and could be a good argument for critique of Jakob…except for the pornography part which just does not make sense to me…based on what you said, your word (not mine) could be “exploitation”…that is what you describe..you do not describe any version i have ever heard for a definition for pornography…..
you should know, or probably do know, that Jakob has explained many times that he needs to be in love in order to photograph….a pretty common “need” among photographers….he was definitely in love with Sabine….yes, he knew this love could not last forever…who among has not known the same thing at some point in our lives??? well, probably you..but, the rest of us just ain’t perfect…
cheers, david
David,
yes, sure….I guess what I find irritating have been these eternal references to Sobol and his “Sabine”…
Sobol, among other things stand to me for CLOSENESS WITH HIS SUBJECTS & TRUST which aren’t visible in Rafal’s work. Where Sobol shows his g friend having her period–like it or not—, Rafal shows his wife half-hidden,shy, under the shower.. It’s a beginning. —In the end it doesn’t matter at all, just please do your very own thing and close the books !
Definitions. A personal thing, but I think that one way to transform nudity, or sexual “love” into pornography is to exploit it for your own gain. If, in fact, Sobal needs to be in love in order to photograph, he needs (and perhaps he is) to be up front about it with those who become his lovers.
And, while I’m far from perfect, I’ve never gotten into intimate relationships where I knew going in there was no future in it. But, then, the fact I’ve been married for 31 years probably gives that away.
David
Im often dissapointed that the essays on Burn aren’t longer.
Kathleen F. email me if you would like to talk about portrait photography. glafleurphoto@shaw.ca
GORDON…
your point is well taken….some essays coulda shoulda woulda been longer..more coulda shoulda woulda been shorter..the old axiom “leave ‘em wanting more” is probably a pretty good idea for the net…
for me personally, i like essays short…i do not need to see “everything”….however, every essay published on BURN, the photographer has either given me the go ahead for a tighter edit, or done their own…
no essay goes up on BURN that is not the final choice of the photographer…
cheers, david
Whoha, Rafal, little pieces of us. I wanted to wait till the usual shoulder tapping is over, and now almost everything is said. You did a fine job. I like the edit, how you try to keep some visual flow – here I have to disagree, the presentation on burn is not a gallery, it´s a slideshow, and a slideshow is different then arranging pics on a wall, or in a book, but that´s just a sidenote. I understand the argument some brought up that the view on your family life seems narrowed to bed and bathroom, and that they miss laughter, tears, kitchen stories and whatever. But as you said, it´s about your personal little intimate moments, it´s called “little pieces of us”, not “one and a half year in the life of the family pruszynski” and that´s fine with me. in this regard I think the fragmented person shots – a leg, a hand – fit nicely. I also see this “us” not in an exclusive “us vs. them” sense, more abstract, including all us humans. We all have a mother, we all have a father, and we all have been children. sometimes we still behave like, but that´s a completely different topic. Maybe we should try more often to see the world thru children´s eyes. Something you seem to have tried, at least with some of the shots – and here I´m with bobblack, I also had the impression that your son can be seen as some alter ego, maybe not in the title shot : ) , but in the general big eyed enthusiasm for discovering the world around. The little pieces. while the father needs a clear and analytic pov, he has to compose images.
But I don´t want to dive into the “psychoanalyse this” scheme, mostly – and some of the above discussion seems to fit in that category – it says more about the interpreter than the work. The work. You know that I follow your stream for quite a while, and actually – with bblack again – I never understood why you distinguished between the “family ties” and the “little pieces” and probably never will. Is it sort of a voluntary self restriction, to keep the “little pieces” as the most inner circle? If it´s an conceptual decision I understand it, but such an hermetic concept will surely lead to some of the misunderstandings as the above like “hey, why don´t we see your wife in a supermarket”
Whatever, I´m happy you did not include self portraits – nah, not because I think according to your hand you must be pretty ugly – just because they make no sense in this context. The only reason apart from pure voyeurism in demanding such a selfie is that if people see some polski styled guy with a cam in korea, they want to invite him for a drink and be sure to invite the right one. People, be assured, you can´t go wrong. Every polski looking guy with a cam in korea is worth a drink, ask maciej. The hand / feet pic is nice, it gives the right amount of you. I see your reasons to place it in the middle of the set. somehow I´m not happy with the last pic, the second last, wife leaving the shower and also the show, is okay, but you have this strong start, so there should be something strong in the end. Maybe the hand /feet shot. oh, and I miss the boy with the toy elephant!
As you said, it´s still under progress, and maybe in a year it will look different. But you did some great steps, in the right direction. Respect for that.
it takes loads of energy to wade into this discussion this far along. part of me doesn’t want to deconstruct Little Pieces of Us, to compare and contrast, prove and disprove correlations. But there are some views weighing into this discussion, yours included David Alan Harvey, that sting me into making an effort, but i’m sure i will not enjoy it.
David planted the seed of Sabine, i don’t own the book, but the gist of it or what makes it relevant to this discussion seems clear from the forty-seven images available from Magnum. And that gist for me registers the same view via the Sobol book i do own: I, Tokyo. Both of these Sobol efforts along with Trent’s Christmas Tree Bucket, and Antoine D’Agata Insomia share only one meaningful common thread with Little Pieces of Us, and that is that they are highly autobiographical, highly in that it seems the author is highly implicated in the effort. I’m certain Sobal took his autobiographic nature to Tokyo and i know more about him than i do about Tokyo after experiencing I, Tokyo. I’m certain that Trent explored his own life in CTB and i know more about him than his family, and well Antoine, i don’t think i could ever know enough about that wizard, but i’m sure i see more of a shape of him than people in the images he captures.
Rafal work is autobiographical as well, but it’s not entirely about his relationship with his life at this moment in time as the others just mentioned. i say it again, this is Domestic Photography, this is a chance for us to explore ‘not’ co-dependent relationships via Goldin, this is a seat at a very different voyeuristic table, this is a view of a person’s family unit. Every thing else is incidental really.
David for me it seems you feel that Rafal needs to start unhinging himself from the influences he holds in high regard as there is some constraining aspect of the influence of these masters. For some reason this sentiment doesn’t sit well with me. It feels as if you might think he might not break into original territory because of their influence on him. For me the influence is more of an enabler. They seem to pave the way to create a visual vocabulary that he can use to reveal his own personal story. And this is what i feel it’s all about, a new and personal story, not a pattern of techniques or approaches. So i guess i don’t think Rafal needs to close any books David, he need to keep them and any other visual encyclopaedias open to find tools to illuminate this or any other story he has to solve with images or approaches.
i don’t think Rafal’s message is fully constellated yet; as an image of a family unit i think it’s still missing a key part of the trinity: Rafal. i think Rafal knows this, but i don’t think the images that provide evidence of his piece in the story have come through yet, and rather than force half-baked images or clichés, he’s excluded them, i hope these images come with time. i do think his implication in the capture of most of the images makes us sure he’s there and his capture choices do register as the father. i also think that cementing the family unit from an external perspective is missing, the family unit contrasted by things outside of it. Again i don’t think the images that Rafal thinks are worthy of an edit this size have come through and rather than force them, they seem to be excluded. Commendable really.
As far as domestic photography, for me i think it’s the final frontier. It’s deeply interesting to the universe of spectators of images for three simple reasons, we can all identify with it and most of the times there’s more drama in it than in fiction and most importantly, we’re all visual voyeurs at the core. Isn’t anyone else getting sick and tired of all the artistic exploration of vapour for the sake of creating pretty pictures? There are some people that are creating some deeply interesting domestic works of interest, but unfortunately they don’t feel comfortable revealing them to the rest of the world. i’m glad Rafal isn’t one of them as i’m glad to have met his family in this way. The real test of Rafal’s metal will be his ability to apply his vision to another story and possible not an autobiographical one.
Katharina,
keep trying to fit that square peg in a round hole. Its funny in one breath you accuse me of showing too much then slam me for not showing enough. No shot of my wife having a period? Is that what you were hoping to see? As I said before I decided from the beginning how much I would show. And one thing I decided was this: I did not want to show so much as to make it embarassing for my wife. Hence, you will hardly ever see from me full on nudity. Things may be suggested. Hence the shower photo, she isnt hiding, this is a compositional choice. One last time Ill say this and then assume you are unable to comprehend written text: none of the situations shown involved any hiding. Your assumptions stem from your own psychological state which forces you into such a reading of the text.
Sobol did influence me. I saw Sabine a few months into having started this project. Originally it was Billingham and Goldin. The IDEA of being autobiographical was what influenced me actually. And I try to infuse some of this into my other projects. There is another projects Im doig along with this called Marooned http://www.flickr.com/photos/jinju/collections/72157606643568147/
David,
yes, sorry. What I meant about seeing the full work is seeing the other projects that run alongside Pieces, Family Ties for example, and putting the two into a larger context.
should be: such a reading of the images.
i´m not missing Rafal in this piece, he´s omnipresent. but i agree about the future test in showing something that´s not all about me, me, me. even the shortest lens can´t cover it all. sometimes a zoom means not to be to lazy to go closer, ask a movie director. dynamics are a good thing. but as long as we talk about little pieces, right here, right now, it´s fine
Oh Mr.Rafal, just drop it.
All Katerina ( and everybody else here said )was simple. Drop your books and stop being such a bad xerox copier/ imitator . Do not pretend you do not get it. Do not get offended if your family photos have nothing to do with Nan G. or Sobol. Be quiet, please. Enough with your macho arrogance .
JOE…
i think you may have misinterpreted what i was saying, for i agree with everything you just wrote about Rafal’s development….but, it is quite curious that many times i agree with what you say, then am amazed at the “twist” with your major premise so described…hmmmmm, very curious indeed…you certainly put words in my mouth…you articulate as well as anyone here, do a deep often too “deep” “analysis” , then jump to a conclusion of your “own” that is construed as if you discovered it….Joe, sorry, but you speak the obvious….cleverly put, but obvious….and for some strange reason you seem to want to be not so subtly contentious and on this particular subject there just is nothing to be contentious about…hmmmm,curious….
i spent a lot of time with Rafal in Korea….we went shooting together many days and he was quite helpful to me as i worked on my Korea youth project…we became friends….i spent quite of bit of time looking at his work…you would not recognize it from what you see today…ask him….we talked a lot and i tried to dig into his personality and find out his motivations etc…since those days in Korea i have stayed in constant touch with Rafal over the last three years and followed this Pieces of Us from the very beginning…
so , i think Rafal might know what i mean when i said “at some point in the future Rafal may have to get PAST the work he admires so much from Sobol in order to make his own mark”…of course he will keep Sobol and others with him at all times forever….it was a GIVEN that these mentors are enablers…that was my original point after all… my whole first comment on this subject..that Sabine was a “key” for Rafal….and that key will allow Rafal to walk through another door….
cheers, david
DAH,
I sent you an email..check it out.
Joe:
You make some interesting points about “domestic photography”..i think i just dismissed it out of hand as something uninteresting to me but i well recall Friedlander’s family dysfunction..fascinating..i believe i will re-think this genre..might be some very interesting stuff to be seen. God knows i have spent not a little time thinking about Rafal’s essay and complex food for thought it has been indeed.
best:
kat~
Rafal,
I didn’t mean to ” accuse” you of anything, I simply was saying that it’s maybe time to close the books ? My assumptions stem very much from your very own words . Have you ever checked how many times on this blog you mention Goldin/ Sobol etc …your ideas about ” snapshot photography/ snapshot -style photography ? The comparison between that one Sobol picture and your own was merely an ( extreme) example, nothing else.
Sure enough, you create some expectations/ ideas , however what you show in your photography is something different. This is not meant as criticism, it’s an observation.
went to look at Sabine..wow..blown away..pornographic? ohmygod, who said that? Sabine is so far from porn i can’t imagine using the two words in a sentence together. And Sabine is very, very far from Pieces of Us. Yes, Sabine was perfection. Faultless. I adored that girl. Real as rain..er snow. But Greenland and Korea and Jacob and Rafal are all different beasts. Yes, Pieces of Us is a frozen moment on the continuum of Rafal’s life..hopefully he will be shooting hotter and hotter, looser and looser, deeper and deeper..
Bob Black, Fascinating read about Koreans and their culture. i have a Korean sister. A lot of what you say rang true and i considered all of that in my ongoing thoughts on this essay. Many thanks for the time you took to detail your observations.
best:
Kat~
kathleen, you really feel it o.k. that Sobol used Sabine for a project? He used these people. It was a game to him. He got to do his testosterone fueled huntin’ and fishin’ and eatin’ seal blubber and lovin’ for a while, safe in the knowledge that he had made no real commitments and was going to walk away from all of it, and then he left and exploited this girl by publishing these photos of her and then moved on to the next project.
Jim,
I’ve had short relationships that didn’t last that meant/mean a hell of a lot to me. I took pictures, never showed them to anyone?
If I did would I be exploiting her?
How can you judge, from so far away, how true of a relationship theirs was?
Jim, i don’t know enough about Jacob or his intentions. My reaction was purely based on the photographs. Are you saying his actions were pornogrpaphic, as in “the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction” which of course would be further exaggerated if he exploited this little camp and its inhabitants, most specifically Sabine? Do you know it was a game? How do you know this? I mean, i’m asking because i don’t know anything about the project, only visited the link that Kat provided and absolutely loved the photographs.
Look, what if Rafal documented his family for a few more years and that was his exclusive photographic project and then let’s say the marriage ends for whatever reason, and then let’s say that Rafal, being the ambitious photographer we know that he is goes forward with his book idea and manages to get published. And then he say moves to, i don’t know, Cambodia where they raise rice by hand (love that expression, Herve) and being the compulsive image maker that he is, does the same thing again. Does that make Pieces of Us pornographic? This is not a dissimilar situation. Cultural and racial differences: foreign photog comes in, hooks up with local woman (in this case marries her and has baby or else she has baby and marries her, i have no idea which came first the chicken or the egg), realizes he can’t stay/make a living, can’t eat kimche forever, finishes the project, tires of the woman, bids a fond adieu and adios.
How do we really know that Rafal’s intentions are any less exploitative than Jacob’s? And forgive me all if i am demonstrating a complete ignorance of the facts. It’s because i have a complete ignorance of the facts, it’s real late, i am scanning negs, listening to music and musing.
So Jim, please cuz i need clarity..what exactly is pornographic about Sabine?
(Are the red buds blooming yet? been thinking about them)
kat~
kat,
even if it’s 2am you are still the most clear headed person here. i wonder what tainted coffee will do to you? i come here to burn just to hear you write. scratch scratch scratch or now click click click…
your comments are honest and fresh and funny (i honestly think no one can eat kimchi forever).
eberhardt 4H you will never ever need
sweet dreams, sweetie
Gracie..
The reason i am the most clear-headed person here at 2am is cuz i am the ONLY person here at 2am..till you decide to drop by that is. You n’ me, we’re the night shift, huh? Anyway, you’re fabulossissimmo..thanks for coming by to keep me company..i am plugging away at my scans and feeling very tired and restless..hear me write…hahaha, that’s funny! Better than hearing me roar. And girl, i could use a holster full of eberhardt 4H’s doncha know! g’night to you, chica..and catch ya next time same time!
hugz!
kat~
kat,
my thoughts exactly… (looking around … shhhhh… panos is probably asleep)
ill bring my holster of eberhardts for tomorrow night.
zzzzz
Gracie..
k..g’night and sweet dreams backatcha!
All… hi…
just came home from the HOUSE OF PAIN… ( some call it Hospital )..
but let me tell you how it really works…
YOU HAVE THE MONEYS???
then its the house of JOY !!!!!!!!!!
YOU DARE NOT TO HAVE THE MONEYS.??????
then its the house of PAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sorry America… sorry !!!!!!!!!!!!!
now.. since i’m cranky and in pain myself let me start messing up with people….
Everybody knows that i love JOE….
Actually i “met” Joe through Venice Beach…( one more reason to thank Venice… )
but lets not beat around the bush…!
1) “….David planted the seed of Sabine…”
i hope you dont mean DAH beacause he never “planted” that seed… Rafal did ( numerous times )
2) “… i say it again, this is Domestic Photography, this is a chance for us to explore ‘not’ co-dependent relationships via Goldin, this is a seat at a very different voyeuristic table, this is a view of a person’s family unit. Every thing else is incidental really…”
We all agree… Rafal & Goldin, NOTHING IN COMMON…
ok, JOE, What exactly are you saying except from agreeing with everybody here but Rafal? OK, LETS CONTINUE..
3)”…David for me it seems you feel that Rafal needs to start unhinging himself from the influences he holds in high regard as there is some constraining aspect of the influence of these masters…”
C’mon dear JOE, thats just HEALTHY…ARE YOU SERIOUS????? Dont you see the constraining aspect when there is ultra respect, love , admiration?,..It leads to subconscious imitation… “groupie” or “fan” at its worst…unnecessary imitation at its best. What is so hard to admit here?
4)”….So i guess i don’t think Rafal needs to close any books David, he need to keep them and any other visual encyclopaedias open to find tools to illuminate this or any other story he has to solve with images or approaches…”
JOE , this is some dangerous, unhealthy advice…Nietzsche clearly stated long time ago that “when i stopped reading, i started thinking..”… Joe, to be able to create you have to be able to ignore the status quo…think of Albert Einstein… Go even earlier in time.. THE BOOKS USED TO SAY THAT EARTH IS FLAT… now if the G. guy would think like you, then the planet “earth” would still be flat.. ( no pun intended )…
5)”…i don’t think Rafal’s message is fully constellated yet; as an image of a family unit i think it’s still missing a key part of the trinity…”
Again JOE, you just repeat the majority here..In other words you just talk, just.. to talk…
I expect more, way more from you…( no sarcasm )
6)”…and rather than force half-baked images or clichés, he’s excluded them, i hope these images come with time…”
yes JOE.. but there are not here yet… and there will never be here unless Rafal ( AND ANY RAFAL ),
will start thinking in an ORIGINAL WAY…In other words , its all about originality…
HOW CAN YOU BE AN ORIGINAL IF YOU ALREADY SET UP LIMITS?…Extra Admiration, groupies , fans,are doomed to be limited… Guess why JOE… guess why!
7)”…There are some people that are creating some deeply interesting domestic works of interest, but unfortunately they don’t feel comfortable revealing them to the rest of the world…”
THEN THOSE DEEPLY INTERESTING DOMESTIC WORKS SIMPLY DO NOT EXIST DEAR JOE…
again what are you talking about ??????? Who cares about “nothing”…YES , im the greatest photographer or DOCTOR in this world but i threw all my photos away… Yes, i found the cure for cancer but i burned the manuscripts… JOE… god damn it… are you in love with your voice????
if you dont share that “thing”, then that “thing” simply does not exist..
IS THIS SOME INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION , or what???
I’m not laughing… Joe.. not laughing!
8)”… Isn’t anyone else getting sick and tired of all the artistic exploration of vapour for the sake of creating pretty pictures? ..”
Again, help me out.. WHAT THE F**K are you talking about? And if i wanna guess ( because once again you do not want to speak clear, you just want to sound “DEEP”…), if i really wanna guess, i totally disagree..
I DO, JOE.. YES I DO CARE ABOUT THE ARTISTIC EXPLORATION… for the sake of creating pretty pictures..
What is wrong with that? What the hell is wrong with u today Joe????????
9)…” There are some people that are creating some deeply interesting domestic works of interest, but unfortunately they don’t feel comfortable revealing them to the rest of the world…”
who cares about those PESSIMISTS JOE… they dont EXIST then… they dont share with the world, then the world doesnt know them… Joeeeeeeeee, why dont they share with the rest of the world????
10)”… i’m glad Rafal isn’t one of them as i’m glad to have met his family in this way. The real test of Rafal’s metal will be his ability to apply his vision to another story and possible not an autobiographical one….”
jesuuus Joe, you just repeated everyone else here once again…
just because Rafal didnt hide his photos from the rest of the world does that make it art?
And yes, again repeating everybody, we all agree with you..
Yes, Rafal should apply his vision to another story AND POSSIBLE NOT AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL ONE…
SO… AGAIN JOE… cant u see that you totally, NOT ONLY “rejecting” Rafal’s story as unsuccessful,
but you ALSO DARE TO ADVISE HIM WHAT HIS NEXT PROJECT SHOULD BE…
…AND the only thing that POOR DAH SAID WAS… to be original is to move to a next step and create…
A NEW THING… SETTING THE MASTERS ASIDE…
Rafal, is on his very first step….
NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT…
AGAIN , WHAT exactly are you proposing JOE?????????????? that is so hard to put in one sentence ??????????
Why are you so sad???????????
… And JOE,
Rafal is a GREAT GUY and a GREAT FRIEND…
no reason for u or anyone to be his public defender…
I re read all the comments…
nobody tried to offend him… He “offended” ( accidentally ) himself with all those references…
If you really want to offend me JOE,
then tell me that my work resembles, Steve Mc Curry, or Alex Webb, or Majoli or even DAH..or D’Agata..
or whatever…
And again i think Rafal is NOT AN ARROGANT guy..
He simply sounds arrogant… He is simply over excited… as any beginner should be…
Thats all…
IF YOU WANT TO BE THE NEW FYODOR DOSTOYEFSKI OR THE NEW ALBERT CAMUS…
then yes and im sorry… BUT you need to STOP STUDY THEM…
what is SO hard to understand JOE ??????????
Rafal has made a real commitment. He has a wife and son. Sobol made no such commitment. The time in greenland that resulted in Sabine was a project. All his pretty words (and he wrote an interesting story) don’t change that fact. It’s hard to determine what Sabine was to him. But it’s easy to see what he ultimately did with the relationship…used it, and these intimate photos of her, as a book and ticket into Magnum.
Rafal may (I don’t know him, of course) use his intimate relationships with his wife and son as a ticket to fame and publish a book. But he didn’t start having sex with his wife and photographing her in the nude as part of a project to do so. There is a big difference.
Do I think Rafal is making a mistake here? Absolutely, but I would never compare him to Sobol. I think Rafal’s work is good. Sobol used people and moved on. There were no negative consequences (beyond ethical questions from folks like me) for Sobol. But there is a very real danger for Rafal, his son and wife, as he exposes intimate (and I’m talking beyond sex) “pieces” of his family. Intimacy helps hold relationships together. It creates a bond. Things we know about each other. The intimate secrets we share. These are important. One person can give the other in a relationship “permission” to expose some of that intimacy to the world; but whether done with permission or not, once those “secrets” are shared (the way he looks at his wife as she walks toward the bed without clothes), they cannot be reclaimed.
It raises all kinds of ethical questions. Parents, of course, have the right (by necessity) to make choices for their children. But I have a real ethical problem when parents make the choice to put their children on public display (as in books, photo and otherwise). Take the photos, put them in the family album. But don’t sell a book with them in it until the child becomes an adult and can make that choice him/herself. Rafal’s wife may feel very different about these photos should their relationship fail and she try to move on with her life with a record of her willingness to compromise intimacy sitting on the shelf at a bookstore. These are ethical issues.
I realize there is Nan Golden and Sally Mann and a host of others who have shot the photos and published the books anyway. But of what value have they been that was worth sacrificing the intimacy of the relationships, other than making the photographers famous?
“…Do I think Rafal is making a mistake here? Absolutely, but I would never compare him to Sobol. I think Rafal’s work is good. Sobol used people and moved on….”
LAUGHING….
Jim , dont worry , nobody ever compared Rafal to Sobol… and im glad you see the difference!!!!
( laughing even more…)
… but JIM… CANT YOU SEE THAT YOU REALLY CONTRADICT YOURSELF????????
YOU SAID:
“…Rafal may (I don’t know him, of course) use his intimate relationships with his wife and son as a ticket to fame …”
“… Sobol used people and moved on…”
where is the difference Jim???
they BOTH USED “the world”… for “FAME”….
OH I SEE THE DIFFERENCE… Rafal didnt move on but Sobol did?????????????
( i dont have so much hair left on my head Jim… please let me keep it…)
;-)
David I hear you. I understand how you feel based on my post. I didn’t wish to make you feel that way or challenge your intentions or results. I don’t deny the merit, value, or the results with Rafal. I’m in deep envy of what Rafal claims to have collected from your guidance, I don’t think I’ve every made a secret of that either and i don’t think i’ve said it about another photographer. So for that I’m deeply sorry you took my post to that extent. And Rafal, I’m sorry if you felt the need to maybe confirm that my opinions were not your opinions, but that’s understandable if you did.
So this comes back to the point. I wish I could make my point in a way that didn’t antagonise or admit the obvious, but it’s a point I really don’t understand fully, but one I know is something that stings me a bit.
I’ll try again. For some reason, and maybe it’s pure fiction or personal paranoia, but I feel that the extent of Rafal’s knowledge of all the masters relevant to his work (or anyone else like him, for example Katharina and her work) may somehow make him seem more of a disciple verses an original explorer. I get this feeling from some of the posts, your post made me feel this way for some reason David. As you stated, it shouldn’t, so no need to revisit that.
Anyway, I guess I think there are tons of both visual languages and capture approaches in the past encyclopedia’s of work. And I think the language and the capture is all ‘fair game’ for use in future story telling, for me it becomes public property in my ideal world. For example, there is a two page spread in I, Tokyo that makes me think, whow, this is Daido Moriyama, I’ve seen this two page spread before, then i start thinking, whow, he’s using full bleed pages as well, and the tumble starts, but then I think, wait! this is a technique or a piece of visual language for Sobal‘s story, it’s used to evidence his personal stake on the place and for him for this piece it works. So even here I’m guilty of recognising patterns and becoming distracted by them, but I don’t want to be and that’s my sting I suppose. If we didn’t get so distracted by these very same techniques and capture approaches we might just as easy be discussing how Rafal’s pictures of his partner seem so different than Trent’s pictures his partner in CTB.
So, it’s me that has issues I suppose David, by my own admission I’m guilty of being distracted from the story by the visual vocabulary used in the past and maybe even the approaches to a project, but I don’t want to be. I want to think the more we see the better vocabulary we command, but sometimes it means the more risk of us using it, ahh! there is that sting again. It will be interesting to see to what extent Katharina’s work gets filtered through MEM’s effort.
Anyways, next time I’ll take up my issues first with my therapist before the public ;-(