Photograph by Maciej Mosur
well, i got back late to new york from colorado this evening , but still felt compelled tonight to link you to some of your essays…now, the first thing i must say is that we are not finished…this new website is literally UNDER CONSTRUCTION….you will see a suggested home page layout, which i am actually not fond of at all, and will change or modify drastically….but, i decided to make you a part of this new web "work in progress", so your comments are expected… please accept a few "kinks" until we get it all worked out…
the second thing i must say, is that good old fashioned space limitations at this point had me editing down just a bit tighter than i wanted…but, we are going to figure this one out….more importantly, you will only see right now pieces from the so-called "finalist" essays…but, there are MORE ESSAYS AND SINGLES to come from many of you…two "singles" are shown here ….i have also done some individual critiques for this audience by private e-mail and will do more as soon as feasible…
some of the "sleepers" here may rise in your opinions to the top and vice versa…at some point very soon, i will write my thoughts on "why this ? " for all of the essays presented and will also solicit the opinions and dialog from my colleagues in our craft…and , of course, something tells me that your opinions will be forthcoming soonest!!!
please remember that all of these essays were self-produced , as part of an experiment on this forum, by this audience, between july 15 and november 15, 2007…i was curious to see how this audience would do with an unfunded but "realistic" time limit…the Emerging Photographer stipend was initiated by yours truly after a few months of "mixing" and "inventing" with this community…
my goal is to finance photographers in conjunction with the non- profit Magnum Cultural Foundation… this initial stipend awarded to Sean Gallagher, with others to follow, is intended to support an "emerging" photographer working on a photographic essay who might benefit ….for example, i do not see Gallagher’s essay as "finished" and definitely a "work in progress:..the ultimate intention here is to fund worthy photographers for whom traditional outlets for their work may not exist…. and to have the end result of their photographic work, stimulated by this forum, appear in print and exhibition….no promises, just a sincere effort….
so, please take a look at these new photo-essayists under "forum essays" …let’s talk……
http://www.davidalanharvey.com.temp.livebooks.com/
Photograph by Partha Pal
nacho’s right david. there’s not much in the philippines that’s in-your-face spanish anymore. except for remnants both physical (e.g. castillan architecture in a handful of places) and cultural (e.g. our spanish surnames) much of filipino society has been americanized. one thing though that remains very “latino” is the religiosity of many catholics. you should see our fiestas devoted to patron saints. a more peculiar example is zamboanga city, one of our southernmost cities. their lingua franca is chavacano, a combination of spanish vocabulary and filipino grammar. regardless, the philippines won’t disappoint the visitor
if a philippine workshop is a near-future possibility then i would be the first to sign up! of course, when one thinks “philippines” he also (automatically?) thinks “manila,” the country’s capital, perhaps its most cosmopolitan spot. (manila is actually different from metro manila but i won’t bore you with the details.) what i’m trying to say is, it’s always a good idea to conduct a workshop there (the konrad adenauer asian center for journalism, supported by the world press photo, is based and conducts classes there) but i’d like to make a case for holding it elsewhere. i’m sure manila-based photographers would protest (oy, don’t make it so inaccessible!) but then similar groans would be heard in other places if it were held in manila. i’ve lived in manila all my life but just last year transferred to davao city, in my opinion the most cosmopolitan city in mindanao, a southern island. (btw, mindanao was the veeery loose subject matter of the photos i submitted to you). a lot of photographers here would be extremely happy if you showed up in these parts. anyway, i’m babbling about something that’s so up in the air so…
about shooting in public and shooting children. in filipino society, shooting children in public is a non-issue. i’ve never heard of a parent or a guardian here complain about such a matter. i don’t have an explanation for this and i don’t think i’m qualified to hazard a guess. but related to this, i also noticed, when i browse photos online by filipino photographers, that a lot of them, when they shoot what they casually refer to as “street photography,” aim their lenses more squarely at children than at adults. for example, in a series of photos by one photographer, he’d have shots of a kid on a park bench filling up the entire frame together with shots of a fruit vendor observed from across the street with a tele. i’m sure you’ll agree that this is another symptom of that fear of taking photos in public spaces. no threat will come from the kid but who knows how the vendor would react. unfortunately, i suffer too suffer from such a fear. never mind the advice i get from people on how to shoot with confidence and discretion (your anecdote about shooting in that bar after only 20 minutes of hanging around is interesting), when it come to actually doing it i’m afraid again. words versus acting them out. one workaround i’ve adopted is going with someone who has actual business in a certain venue. i find it easier to shoot then because in my mind i’m telling everyone i’m shooting, “uhh, i’m with her.” that’s exactly what happened last month when i went up a mountain with my wife who visited a family of indigenous people she had intimately worked with before. while taking photos of them (may i show them to you david? how?) i thought, “uhh, i’m with her.” and i guess that’s the key, it’s how you feel about it internally, how you feel inside about other people. it shows and they respond accordingly.
bj
Morning all…It is becoming part of my daily routine to check out the thoughts of all those who participate here. Admittedly, it happens more than once a day when I have the time and more than likely I will be a lurker that occasionally throws in my two cents worth. At this point what I find interesting, is that my short time here is having an effect on my thinking. The essays shown so far are wonderful teasers to keep me coming back for more and the dialouges enrich the experience. If the purpose of this exercise is to further encourage the critical thinking needed to enhance our passions, then this virtual reality will turn out be a great success.
Looking into the future, I think David will have a larger grin than the one he already wears and our next submissions will surely reflect that our time and eyes have spent time here. Thank you all…
I just caught up with the posts regarding photography of children, one of my favorite subjects. I know there is a lot of parental paranoia out there, some of it justified. I am also a very anxious parent. Recently I was at a local sculpture park with my kids, and a woman with a camera slowly approached us and just started taking photos of my kids, without saying anything to me. She approached cautiously (I’m 6’1) and was not the least bit intimidating (I think it helps that she was a woman), so I didn’t intervene, but still felt that she was intruding. Had she first approached me, especially since I was also carrying an SLR, and asked permission to shoot, I would have felt better, and the kids would not have known since they were obliviously playing the whole time.
What I’ve learned from my experience as a pediatrician, combined with what I’ve learned about portrait photography is that children and their parent(s) need time to feel they can trust you, pretty much like any other photographer-subject relationship in just about any other type of portrait situation. Steve McCurry has said, “If you wait, people will forget your camera and the soul will drift up into view.”
What happened to you, David, in Cuba underscores that misunderstandings still happen even to the best of us, even when rapport and trust has been firmly established. But I just wanted to emphasize that those thankfully rare cases do not negate the importance of approaching children and their parents with the same patience and respect that adult subjects often receive.
Akay, thanks for the serious post. I went to the Isles of Langerhans once but had to leave early with pancreas problems. Panos, stay with us, your posts are always worth reading.
With regard to photographing children; I just treat it as any other street shoot with the caveat that I would only photograph if the subject would make a really good photograph i.e. I wouldn’t take a casual child photograph just for the sake of it.
My style of photographing on the street is to be open, and to never sneak a photograph. I don’t usually engage my subject (I have a slight speech impediment (stammer) that shows itself in situations like when I ask “Excuse me, I’m a photographer and I’d really like ….” or when someone says “What is your name?”) but I don’t hide either. If they see me – and they usually do, I keep photographing. I usually don’t shave before I hit the mean streets and try to look tough. This works very well as people are always stopping me to ask for directions, spare 5 minutes to answer a questionnaire or spare some change for a cup of tea. I must scare the hell out of them. Perhaps it’s the “soft touch” written on my forehead that gives the game away. My (slight) speech problem is really a great help as it keeps me quiet and on the periphery of things. I like it there and I can concentrate on the visual. If I had one wish I wouldn’t choose good speech; I’d choose 20/20 vision. How about you?
Best to all, Mike.
It is a weird world we live in. For the majority of the time when issue of photographing children arises my thoughts wander along with a thought that it should be allowed and open. My thoughts are that pedophilia, statistically, this is a non issue. Of course I have no numbers to back this up so I don’t really say anything, nor do I have any desire to devote time to find out whether it is a huge issue.
Then, however, as if on a cue, last week I bought a signed Josef Sudek, Prague Panoramic book from an auction. The book is damaged but a bargain compared to the astronomical prices I have seen in the past 4 years. The seller says he has more books and sends me pictures of the covers in an e-mail. Out of 20 titles there are 3 titles that make me uncomfortable with one of the titles named The Child’s Body – perhaps an educational pictorial from the 40′s. I don’t know…but I immediately think WTF!?!
ERIC…
yes, you are correct…i did want to do a story on alex webb…i actually thought he would be down in washington for the natgeo seminar last week, but he must have had an assignment to do..both of us are pretty busy and our schedules do not often mesh..in any case, i will do my best to hunt that boy down!!!
W ROBERT ANGELL…
i have used a medium or large format camera only a few times in recent years…but, i do find that there is an interpreted “honesty” when using these cameras which absolutely declare “i am going to take a picture”..
stealth can be interpreted as “sneaky”…still, after thousands of hours hanging on the street with people from all cultures and taking who knows how many pictures of them, i can only think of two times when i was unfairly judged…and i was so unfairly judged that there would be absolutely no way to protect against it…except to just stay home!!
we must absolutely realize that in today’s paranoid world, and with everyone with a camera all the time, makes it imperative to take extreme care…and someone suggested going back and reading my “Eye Contact” post…i wrote it all right there, from my perspective at least…
SIDNEY…
thank you for the story…and sam abell was right from every standpoint…one of the times i was “unfairly judged”, was from someone who was not even in the picture at all!!! way down the street…in the background…never saw the guy at all…
when i was shooting “Living Proof” , where i used flash for almost every picture, i was always worried about the people not in the picture at all…the flash, of course, tipped everyone within 50 yards that i was shooting…but, in this case, i think the flash was a bit like using the large camera…an honest declaration…everyone KNEW i was shooting and i think this actually helped…a “stealth” presence in my “hood” environment for this project might have been very dangerous..
ALEKSANDER…
all i can say about you is that you are a good man with a good attitude…you represent a classic approach of just “seeing” for it’s own sake…for me, the highest of motives..just keep going..and do not worry about what will happen….something will!!!
GLENN….
yes, i see your philosophy in your work..i am sure you are the type of man who would rarely , if ever, have any problems working with people..i will publish your work in the next “go around”, hopefully this week….
ASHER…
i know the feeling…i have posted somewhere before that i am often taken as an “amateur” by professionals because i do not “work or look like a professional”…when i was covering the Pope when he visited Castro in Cuba, the dozens “super pros” covering this event, with all their vests and long lenses and scarves, would not even talk to me because i appeared to be some kind of “amateur” with just one camera and no “stuff”!!
however, as you also pointed out, the really top pros are usually generous with their time and quite giving….as in all aspects of life, the folks in the “middle” are the ones who will give you the hardest time!!!
MICHAEL SHAPIRO…
where did you send these images??? i have not seen them….no worries…i will be around this week to take a look…
BJ A PATINO..
thanks for your insights…yes, having worked quite a bit in southeast asia, i have encountered zero problems shooting everyone everywhere all the time..
please stay in touch with me on the possibility of a Philippines workshop…as soon as i find nachtwey (not easy) i will see if he is interested in doing another “jam session” which worked so so well in Bangkok..i will totally take your advice on location…i just assumed Manila would be best, but i have never been, so i just do not know..
NANCY…
thank you for your comment…i will post more forum work this week to give you even more to think about…keep lurking!!! or jump into the fray!!
ALL….
good writing and good thoughts from all of you…thanks….
again, i ask your patience on the website…if i could fix it, i would!! but, this is out of my area of expertise at the moment…i think we can make it more attractive this week, but i am just totally at the mercy of others!!! i must say also these are very helpful “others” and not their fault…i am a hard man to pin down…once i sit with the designer, and am not working by remote control, we should be able to have a workable design…
cheers, david
Whew! After reading through all of these comments, I think strict wildlife photography is becoming more and more appealing! ;^}
MICHAEL RAWCLIFF….
yes yes…body language and 20/20 vision are the most important aspects for working with people..so many times i am working in cultures where i do not speak the language, so i totally understand what you mean…
RENE…
i think we all know of the problems of both sally mann and jock sturges…sally having many problems for photographing her own children and jock for having nudes of children in France….both of these photographers are totally committed artists, with untold amounts of “proof” that they are exactly as they say they are, and yet both have had serious problems with governmental agencies breathing down their neck..
cheers, david
MICHAEL K…
yes, laughing….for sure, no problems with model releases, no problems with “outdated” pictures of polar bears, no problems with angry mothers or boyfriends!!
and technology has totally changed the landscape for both natural history photographers and sports photographers…the laser remote camera traps and the autofocus stablized long lenses are letting us see wildlife as never before and unique visions of a basketball game…
also, wildlife photographers have always been at the top of the list for stock sales….for some reason, not totally clear in my mind, the only disadvantage in wildlife photography is that it seems to get “no respect” in the so called “art world” or elite documentary world…but, most of the great wildlife photographers that i know are laughing all the way to the bank!!!
cheers, david
David, exactly!
Besides that…there is something a little more “romantic” (if I can use that word!) about getting mauled by a grizzly over getting stomped by a paranoid and overly fearful mob!
Not that I want either of those things to happen, mind you…but ya know what I mean?
In any case, I still want to straddle both worlds. I find there’s much fascination in both…and of course the third option, melding of the two!
I shoot children all the time now that I have a kid and also prior to having a kid. Before I had a child I would shoot kids when they would take over the streets in NYC and that is during lunch break and when school is over around 3pm if one lives near a school. Which I have lived near many times in my 18 years in NYC. Or in the summer on hot days at block parties or things like that. For me children until about the age of 18 embody NYC which is part of the reason I like to shoot them. But I usually do not go directly to a place with the sole purpose just to shoot children here in NYC. I shoot them when I am going about my business walking around, which I do a lot. Going to the subway etc. And I usually only shoot one or two frames of any one situation, because it feels weird to me to shoot over and over the same child or children because I know adults will get upset if they see that and it is kind of weird in a way.
In 1990 I used to live in the LES next to a school so I would always pass by the school yard where the kids would play and I would always snap shots of them. One time though one kid saw me, and then another and then another and then all the kids ran over to the fence because they all just wanted me to take photographs of them, it was fun and a good memory of the neighborhood and the kids that embodied it. I have photos of one kid, then a few, then a few more until this one, which is the last one:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/190365725_6a216a6459_o.jpg
I miss that neighborhood and for me I can never go home again, I live close enough to that neighborhood now, but it is not the same for me to go there with the express objective to photograph it then it is when I was living in it day to day and had my camera on hand.
Once I was in the park with my son and I saw a “photographer” type looking man come in the park to shoot the kids playing in the sprinklers. He did not look like a pedophile or anything like that, just like a geeky looking photographer type. But yeah it looked strange to me. First of all in NYC it is a rule and written on many playgrounds that adults are not allowed in the playground area unless accompanied by a child.
Funny thing … without knowing who was currently showing i walked into Seattle’s best photo gallery on Saturday to a major showing of Jock Sturges who David just mentioned above … stunning nude portraits of families and children from France … but for me the printmaking by Tyler Boley of Sturges’ work may have stolen the show, unbelievably stunning carbon pigment inkjet prints which looked like selenium toned prints … beautiful. For locals, Sturges will be at Benham Gallery in Seattle this coming Saturday to discuss his work. Hmmm, lots of these coincidences between David, this blog and my life lately ….
LARA….
hmmmm, i did not know that about the playground sign, but would naturally follow that “rule” anyway….since you are a mom with a child, i would imagine you to have all of the access you would want…
i like your Coney Island work, but am so sorry i missed the show…in any case, i will post your photographs this week on the new site…
cheers, david
I think to document a location one must include children in the shots. They are part of the chain.
@Rene: do you have any photographical evidence of that? Maybe you didn’t realize that in the last five or six years adults started to be spontaneously generated across the whole planet.
@David Alan Harvey, thank you. I know you are extremely busy and thank you for the thought!!! And thank you for being so responsive on this blog.
Lara
@Joni – oh crap. Another proof that I’m out of touch…
Hi David,
I have not been posting too much on your blog, but your writing about being an amateur really touched me. This “someone trying to understand more about tapping into life by using their cameras for introspection or revelation” has been on my mind for days.
Joost
Rene, in both my Inuit and Pine Ridge projects, I photographed a lot of children as well as mothers with babies, and old people. Photographing cultures for me always seems to include a large component of the life cycle.
That, of course, is not the same as street photography. I think playgrounds and neighborhoods are getting pretty much out of bounds. I got in trouble once in Paris, but then again, I did get a couple surreptitious shots.
Pretty decisive, huh?!
Framing to do -
Michael
Hi David
Just saw your “pro” post.
What is it with the scarves?
Noticed in Perpignan this year, scarves and pouches, why?
I did a shoot at the Palio di Siena in 2006, all the press/prosports guys with DSLRS and big white lenses and me with two little rangefinders [and a noblex], I think they though I was nuts!
Results here if you want take a look:
http://pa.photoshelter.com/gallery-show/G00009eyemd327yk?G_ID=G00009eyemd327yk&P_ID=&start=25&pagtotal=41
Keep well!
Best
Clive
David, I was talking about the stuff entered for the essay projects.
Michael C did get them; he and I discussed which ones were supposed to be included.
Michael
FWIW, Alex Webb is in Cuba. Rebecca sent me an email regarding their upcoming workshop at Julia Dean and said they would be in Cuba for three weeks so I imagine they are still there. I will be using up the (cancelled) Nachtwey credit I have had for over a year now towards a workshop with Alex. Certainly a HUGE difference between the two…but I’m sure it will be enjoyable.
As far as photographing kids…In India I am usually the one who is molested…by packs of kids wanting to be photographed. They beg for it. Most of them in various states of undress. I am the one who must use sensitivity in photographing them or at the very least in editing. I have many shots of (innocent) topless young girls that I just don’t show anyone. I have tried to ask them to cover themselves but it just doesn’t work. Sometimes the attempt to cover themselves makes the shot even more provacative and as much as I would like to protect them from others who have intentions not as good as mine I don’t want to interfere with their culture and/or give them hangups about their bodies. So it’s a fine line…
I have a friend who named one of his images “naked young boy” or something along those lines just for identification purposes. He didn’t title it as that on his site and the shot itself didn’t show any nudity but evidently somehow it was able to be accessed that way thru a web search (I don’t know how those things work) and he quickly realized that one shot was getting thousands of hits…way more than any other image on his site :(((
Of course he immediately renamed it.
Cathy,
about your last post… it’s exactly the same here… you pick up your camera and in two seconds you have a wave of Childs screaming “photo, photo, me, me”…
sometimes you enjoy a lot, because childs are so expressive in their faces and movements that you are always tempted to take them photographs…
but other times you are not interested in taking photos of them… and it’s difficult to figure out how to find a polite way out without disappointing them
I haven’t photograph abroad a lot, but I wonder if childs are the same way everywhere…
saludos,
Hi David and others:
I can see the discussion about ask or no ask permission for take the photos about people(documentary style, street photography). If you ask a permission the subject can stop or change the activities you want to take, so the ideal way should be take the photo without ask a permission.
I am a photographer but also work as a guide for other photographers and filmmakers. I could see how work many photographers from many countries and different styles ; so there is a very important element that many photographer ignore (or want to ignore): the own personality of the photographer. In my opinion the documentary photography has a very big challenge because no only depend of the skills and knowledge about photography but also depend of the personality of the photographer. The subject should “ accept ” the photographer then be relax so the photographer can start the real shots; all this could be achieve without ask a permission if the photographer look nice to the subject.
The photographer should do (often quickly) a psychological analysis of the situation for find the way to get close to the subject, be accepted by him and get the shot avoiding he change what is doing. I am talking about using wide lens , no the” shy style ” of using telephoto lens for stay far away.
Also the “psychological analysis of the situation” can tell you when is absolutely necessary to ask a permission.
About children is more complicate, it is important get the permission of the parent. Many people are more worried for the text that will have the photo than for the photo itself.
Other problem is if the photographer use big cameras, vest, long lens, tripod or/and big camera bag the subject will be nervous, refuse the photos or think you are in assignment and ask for money. One of the first things I learn from David was to be like a “ghost”, he uses his small Leica and small ordinary bag (“no stuff”,like he says), and nobody knew what he was doing.
Sorry for my bad english.
Julio Muñoz from Trinidad Cuba
Julio,
Interesting points. Especially about doing a “psychological analysis” of the situation.
Now, whether to go all out and look like a “Big-time professional photographer”: vest, multiple large cameras, long lenses, backwards cap, etc…or whether to maintain “stealth.” That’s a question.
There have been times when I’ve had the “look” with all the trimmings…and people take a quick note of me and must think “oh, well he’s a photographer, probably works for a magazine or paper…no big deal.” They never bother with me again. And sometimes when I’m dressed in everyday street clothes, carrying one small camera and lens and just popping off shots here and there…that’s when some folks get a little up tight.
Sometimes it better to look like you’re a “pro.” Knowing when and where is another question, though.
Also, doesn’t Steve McCurry have a closet full of identical vests? I’m sure he’s expressed his thoughts somewhere about all this.
I agree with Julio in that the personality of the photographer plays a role in the ability to get images. But is personality also inextricably linked to the pictures we do get or even try to take? It’s been really interesting to compare the finalists’ essays to what they say here on the forum. I get a sense from reading their comments that their work is really an extension of their personalities. When I saw the work of Martin, Erica, Bob B. and Joni for example, I felt that, of course, it has to be their pictures. And Aleksander’s recent comment above illuminated his work perfectly.
Thanks for the reply David.
Julio, Thanks for the post: you have much experience of watching how different photographers work so your comments are very interesting. So was the comment from DAH of the student attempting to take photographs in a bar.
Good photographs Julio – Cuba looks like a vibrant country. I have David’s Cuba book and love the light in the tropics – an area I have not-yet visited. The light in England is much more muted, especially in winter! Your English is much better than my Spanish.
Best,
Mike.
typepad do not want publish my comment… grrr… i will wirte tomorrow… :(
Michael:
I think you are right about to “be or not to be” (look like a professional). It depend of the situation, I have my “beautiful” vest ready for some occasion that I need every body know I am a professional and people think “oh, well he’s a photographer, probably works for a magazine or paper…no big deal.” But can happen things like the people want to look good in the article and start to be posing for you, or can think “he will earn money with the article so I will refuse he take the photo until he pay me some money”. I use to be guide for photographers and I saw those situation several times, I am in very interesting position: I can enjoy the show between the photographer and the subject.
I choose to be a “ghost”,”stealth” or “sneaky”. But no a just a “cold ghost” some time is important to be “married” with the situation, become part (and understand)of what in going on. For example in Cuba the santeria is very interesting religion (vudu in some way) is one of the goal to achieve for those photographers that visit the country;in this case I use the technique of “married” , so I drink, dance with them so they think I am one of them so after some minutes they ignore me and can start to take the photos. A very good photographer show me that technique, he like to take photos in the bar at the corner of my house, for get the good photos he use to mix with the people, obviously he should drink too because the people there invite him , so he some times come back to my house little drunk but with the camera happy, do you remember him, David….?
Also be aware about what thing uses important photographers in photos or documentaries, they often have deals with publicity companies for use things for publicity, but in the real life never use it.
Mike:
Happy to know you like my photos, this is the real Cuba, and always is like this, no rain like UK
Two great pics and once again thanks to David.
Advice next time for you David would be clearer rules and full technical information about exif, description etc. And maybe some sort of auto generated reply to let us know that the work got through. I hope you got my work. It’s on my website. Anyway, not up with the best I’ve seen on your site, just nice to know it got through.
Cheers,
Martin
Well, I must say it’s difficult for me to keep up with the pace of the forum. That’s also the reason why I don’t post more often and I sometimes skip dozens of posts. But this is so interesting to read about your experiences and thoughts.
Sidney,
As pointed out by David and others, your story is especially interesting because you weren’t even trying to photograph the girl in question.
This shows the extent of the paranoia of some people. Now, we are getting paranoid ourselves. I was like you, I was wondering if I would not find my apartment visited by the police. But, hey, we have laws and the police too is supposed to comply with them. As far as I know this sort of thing would take a judge’s decision. Its not up to the local policeman. Now, I know that you guys in the US have this great thing called the Patriot Act but, still, I don’t think it would fall within the scope of the Patriot Act.
David,
About Alex Webb: I think one can guess from his pictures that he does not have a beer with his subjects. Actually some people don’t like this kind of photography because they think it is too distant and cold. As for me, I love it, just as much as I love much more intimate pictures. That said, as long as you are not unnoticed, you have to deal with people’s reactions. And I would be very curious to know if for example he makes eye contact or anything like that. I remember that a few months ago Martin Parr was on this blog and he said that he was shooting as though he had the authority to do so, not making eye contact with anyone, etc. Now, Martin Parr’s kind of photography is again different from both yours and Alex Webb’s. I also asked Costa Manos during a workshop and he told that he almost never asked people and that often he was pretending to shoot something else, constantly moving his camera and keeping shooting. Well, it can certainly work sometimes but not always I think. I tried it a couple of times, but I was never sure if people indeed thought I was photographing something else or if they just didn’t care. If you pretend to be photographing something else but you are not successful, then I think it is worse than anything else. Also, I find it difficult to frame accurately when moving the camera all the time. That said, when I got into trouble with the police, I had been repeatedly shooting a group of children, and that in such a way that everyone could notice me. I was not trying to hide myself, on the contrary. It was in a context where I thought it would not be suspicious to take pictures, as it was a kind of Halloween party and a lot of other people were taking pictures (ok maybe of their own children) and thus I didn’t take any precautions.
Regarding your story in the bar. I think I am not like your former student because generally I am rather shy and I must force myself to get closer to people. But sometimes shyness makes you act clumsily, and probably I don’t always have the attitude that would be the most appropriate. As Bj. a Patino noticed, it is as how you feel internally that influences your behaviour and therefore how people perceive you. I think someone like you is at the far end of the spectrum. You seem to have an ability to make people feel at ease which is quite extraordinary. And I am not just talking about chatting with people and making friends and so on, but also about making people feel O.K. even if you don’t say anything. For this reason, I would be interested in seeing you (as well as other photogs) in action. I would love to see the NG footage. Although this kind of “ability” is probably partly innate (it is clearly linked to our personality), it can probably be partly learnt also. Just as one can learn to overcome shyness.
I know what you mean about the “light post”. I tried it and found it to be effective. This is especially true in places where there is a flux of people arriving and leaving. First, as you say, you become part of the “decor”. And if people see that you were already here before them, they will not suspect that you are specifically interested in them. Even if they don’t like that you are here, they are anyway less likely to confront you, simply because you were here before, like the light post!
I must also add that even if I went into trouble one time, and got a less than pleasant comment another time, there are also many times where I didn’t have any problem at all. But the thing is, even if most of people are nice, it does not make the others less dangerous…
Lara,
You are a woman and that makes a BIG difference. In fact I think it is not even comparable. People almost never see women as potential threats…
Herve,
Don’t misunderstand me! Maybe you just read too quickly (which is well understandable given the amount of material to read!). What makes me pessimistic about humanity is not the possibility or not to shoot pictures. For example, in the US, it may not be allowed to photograph federal buildings. It does not make me particularly pessimistic though. At least not more than any other stupid rule. What makes me pessimistic is the various stories that one can read above, first and foremost that of John Trotter. What makes me pessimistic is the look on the face of the people who asked me if I was there with my family or alone, when I answered “alone”. At that time I was a dangerous dirty pervert. Not the slightest doubt in their mind. Yes, these disgusting PREJUDICES are DANGEROUS. As a matter of fact they have killed, and are still killing, countless people around the world. I mean, prejudices against photographers are the same as prejudices against anyone else. And when not tamed by civilization they turn into hatred and into the most blind and bloodiest violence.
“If it’s to get some kind of expression, the type that only comes from children, why not go to fairs, festivals, children shows. where tons of snap shooters are around it makes little difference you do it too.” This is precisely the kind of place where I was, see my comments above.
I understand what you mean about children lacking individuality in some contexts. Kids tend to behave in a way that we find “fun” or “cute” in many circumstances, but it takes more than that to get interesting shots, and not just sterotypes (and I have to admit that my own pictures are probably more akin to the latter than to the former). But I think one should not be too extreme. Even though kids look more uniform than adults, it does not mean that they have no individuality or nothing worth photographing. I once read an interview of a photographer saying that, in his view, portraits of children don’t have any interest, for children all look alike and don’t express anything specific. To me this statement is plain bullshit. Think about the portraits of McCurry. Are they nothing more than “beautiful colors and costumes”? David has many great children pictures. In a more “street style”, Alex Webb has also many. In fact, almost all photographers I know have great pictures of children even if they are not at the core of their work.
I think it says it all:
http://www.buscatube.cl/play/youtube/brassens/tag1/XnG_VjVoDAc/la-mauvaise-reputation-georges-brassens/
If anyone knows of a good English translation or has the guts to make her/his own…
MARTIN BRINK….
you have some really nice work!! as a matter of fact i am totally in love with your cow group shot….will post your best soonest…
cheers, david
I shot two stories involving children for the DAH submission. One was a conceptual look at a child’s view and sense of wonder in New York City.
The child’s view of New York I generally had ‘implied permission’… The body language, the eye contact, the smile, the head nod. When asked, I’d briefly explain the project and parents seemed to understand. I spent 4 hours one day photographing a playground in Brooklyn. I started by sitting on a bench for a long time with my camera out but not shooting. I’d smile and say hi to anyone walking by. I’m Texan – this is normal for me. I started brief conversations with some people sitting near (“how old is your son?” “Do I have a child here? Oh, no. I’m shooting a photo project on how children view New York”). I’d shoot pictures now and then from where I was sitting. I believe (with kids and grown-ups) staying put in one place is often less threatening. They can see I’m not there to shoot THEM or THEIR kid… I’m just there taking pictures. I’m not “after them” and I’m not trying to hide or sneak a picture. After a while, kids (and adults too) are like pigeons in a park… they edge a little closer, they get curious, they ask you to take their picture (o.k., pigeons don’t do this). After about an hour, I had spoken to a couple of parents and had implied permission from a few others around, and by then I was sitting under and climbing all around the playground equipment and goofing around with the kids. New parents and kids who walked up might have thought is was a little weird, but they’d look to the others, see that they were comfortable and decide it must be fine. Also by being so visible and involved, but in one general area, parents could see what I was doing and could choose to let their kids play there or not.
I should make clear at this point that I’m physically the least threatening person to be found shooting on a playground (female, young looking, physically small). This makes a HUGE difference. And I only shoot with a 28 and a 50 so I have to be close which makes not being noticed usually out of the question. Sadly fear and this hyper alertness/ vigilantism have made it difficult and dangerous for men to shoot in the many of the same situations where I am accepted – at least in the US.
During the same week of the New York shoot I also had to explain to a Toys R Us security person what I was up too. I did and showed him the pictures on the back of the camera and he said “Thank You” and that was it. Generally, though, I can sense when a situation is off or someone is not comfortable.I don’t like sneaking pictures and I generally don’t want to take any one’s picture who objects.
Does anyone else think that 95% of it is how YOU feel… the vibe you are giving off in the moment, on the way into the bar…on the day? Whether you are comfortable, open, curious and confident v.s. nervous, overly excited, agitated, doubtful, etc.? This does not necessarily apply to the kids question, but in general? In life too, I think.
Well @David I have been yelled at. I can give all the specific stories, but it is not that interesting really, except to say I have been yelled at.
I got more flak for doing street photography in the late 80s and early 90s in NYC then now though, that is for sure. But I have gotten some in the last 2 years. One by a parent who threatened to call the police about a year a go. It was a digital camera and I deleted the photo, but even after that she continued giving me grief and waited for about 5 mins to see if any police would happen to pass by, but they did not and so she left.
David: Matt Kim pointed me towards your blog and I must say that I’m impressed and flabbergasted that someone who should be as busy as you could set aside the time to devote to a project this involving.
Finalist: Some very interesting sets – very different and if nothing else, then that should be enough to introduce people to new ways of seeing. I was in Bangkok and just looking at some of the student works there made me want to do something different than what I normally do.
Children: I never really had a problem shooting children – I think it has more to do with how you carry yourself than cultural issues. Having said that, it’s actually illegal to do so in certain parts of Canada without the parents’ permission. I know that’s true in Vancouver and Montreal (and probably other areas as well), but really it all comes down to common sense. If you’re in a playground with a camera and lots of lollipops, then one could misinterpret your intentions. You really do need basic social skills in photography.
David: Matt Kim pointed me towards your blog and I must say that I’m impressed and flabbergasted that someone who should be as busy as you could set aside the time to devote to a project this involving.
Finalist: Some very interesting sets – very different and if nothing else, then that should be enough to introduce people to new ways of seeing. I was in Bangkok and just looking at some of the student works there made me want to do something different than what I normally do.
Children: I never really had a problem shooting children – I think it has more to do with how you carry yourself than cultural issues. Having said that, it’s actually illegal to do so in certain parts of Canada without the parents’ permission. I know that’s true in Vancouver and Montreal (and probably other areas as well), but really it all comes down to common sense. If you’re in a playground with a camera and lots of lollipops, then one could misinterpret your intentions. You really do need basic social skills in photography.
Sorry about that double post…not quite sure what happened :(
Those who say it’s easier for a woman to photograph children could be right. I was right in the faces of these girls and they absolutely didn’t notice me.
http://www.lightstalkers.org/images/show/137676
Maybe it has something to do with “vibe” as Kelly Lynn says but I have also noticed that people (especially kids) are often so fully involved with what they are doing that they don’t break their concentration to take notice of what anyone else is doing. Or if they notice they don’t care.
Long time lurker.. first time poster. DAH, I don’t know how you manage to to find the time & energy to reply to all these comments… and so consistently. Greatly appreciate this forum and the pictures that I discover thru it.
As far as shooting kids, I do plenty of that.. but usually with my 4 & 7 year olds to provide cover and/or gain access.
The most trouble I’ve gotten into was while doing a 4-weekend project at the local water-park last summer… let’s just say park management was involved and was ready to revoke my season pass.. but I managed to talk them out of it after offering to have them review my images. The shots that started the whole mess were underwater shots that turned out to be completely out of focus, with nothing at all discernible.. which was probably a good thing coz.. it would have been a bunch of butts and feet dangling over floating tubes, viewed from beneath, entering a waterfall.. sometimes it’s good to miss the shot :)
Having said that, what I was most worried about during the ‘interrogation’ was having to explain to my kids why we’d have to leave and couldn’t come back..
http://bitmap.org/ragingwaters.html
i’ve done that shoot-someone-while-pretending-to-be-shooting-someone/thing else routine. it helps sometimes. but then i got to thinking: i’m shooting person A but i don’t want him to notice so i aim the camera at spot B. i’m concentrating on A so often i don’t even know what’s going on in B. and sometimes there’s a person C there. i guess you see where i’m going. C doesn’t know i’m NOT shooting him but i know i’m not shooting him so i feel “good” about the situation and click away. if i had aimed at A, who’s my intended subject anyway, he might feel what C’s feeling now and i’d feel nervous too and hesitate to take the shot. yet there’s no real difference between the 2 cases. so it seems like an internal thing really
Thanks David! Do you need JPEG’s or do you take screenshots?
Cheers,
Martin
Naveen, I was watching those shots proceed on flickr and was wondering how you could shoot there…I really enjoy your photos.