yesterday a brief discussion came up under "student work/workshops" that i thought might be interesting to bring up right here….herve brought it up, after seeing my India student essays, with regard to what he described as a "trend" by workshop students in particular and many photographers in general to photograph what he described as "incomplete" or "not quite" photographs….photographs which could possibly require just too too much imagination on the viewers part…not enough "explanation" perhaps….
simply put, probably most would say the above picture to be rather "incomplete" and the photograph below sufficiently "straight"….or not??? i only use these two since i made them last week and they happen to be in my camera this minute and i promised herve this discussion…and i am either too lazy or too jetlagged or both to go searching for surely better examples….
in any case, my answer back to herve’s comment was that i thought that what we are seeing today among serious photographers is not what i would call a "trend" , but simply our evolution in seeing…artistic evolution/revolution based on our intractable human nature and our most basic and eternal deepest desire to just "shake it up" .. my theory is that tastes obviously change from one generation to the next, or there are parallel and perhaps conflictive artistic developments within the same time frame…in any case, this is not a new discussion…but, we have not had it here….
so i ask you…..do you see a "trend" towards the non-literal in documentary photography??? if you answer "yes", do you think this is a positive or negative trend? if you say "no", do you see the positive "norm" for photographs to be getting looser and looser with no end in sight ??
w. Robert…
Well it’s haltime and Tom Petty sucks so here I am. By the way, tired refrain you got there…more people watch football than care for politics Aaahh we’re doomed!! Well it is as it ever was and, well…here we still are. Thankfully many of us can multi-task in that area.
And to answer that presumptuous why do you shoot question…simply because I love it! I absolutely love it!
Just kidding about Tom Petty by the way. Good stuff.
people of the superbowl…. JUST came back home,…i just posted 7 photos of “recording”… or describing to myself…
a movie visit experience….
thats my only contribution to myself and YOU, today…
peace, click below:
http://blog.panosfotografia.com/
I think the question I really want to find an answer to is,
“why do you want people to look at your photographs?”
“why do you shoot?”
ok wrong question, thats a no brainer to answer.
i just completed a 13 hour trek in the car and miraculously I’m home safely; thank GOD !! There was an ice storm in Flagstaff, Arizona that nearly claimed my Life. This snowstorm even made national news in Holland, go figure. Nature vs Man = Coexist
“why do you want people to look at your photographs?” Bob since you asked the question why don’t you answer first ?
Ha! My birthday was on Saturday (the 2nd) as well. I turned 44 (oh my where have the years gone). Happy birthday to your son David. Ground hogs Day.
I was out of web range there for a bit visiting the parents but to answer your question Herve:
I think that “story” can be defined in many ways. It doesn’t have to have a narrative per se, a beginning, middle and end. It can be a feeling, an emotion, a deja vu, a “Oh yeah, I can relate” and so on. A personal story of the senses, of the heart. The “story” David’s picture related to me was that of my own travels in the developing world and the people I met there. It’s a very small “story”, a slice of the big picture that makes up our universe.
But since you need things more literal here’s an attempt: the crossed hands indicate a moment of concentration perhaps, or contemplation, or worried, or wise. The cheap leather jacket indicates a certain need to be fashionable or suave despite the dirt road and stray dog I can just picture the cheap sunglasses and white shirt open at the collar). It could be a picture about a person’s standing in life or aspirations despite their surroundings.
David mentioned my picture of Cobain from behind performing surrounded by blackness of the stadium. Despite it just being a pic of a performer from behind, it tells a story way beyond what is merely contained within that frame. Now that analogy is a bit skewed because we all know the backstory to that particular person and the image takes on extra resonance due to tragedy. But maybe if we also knew the backstory to this man with his hands behind his back this particular image might speak more volumes than a straight frontal portrait. We don’t know that backstory but we can be allowed to imagine it.
Life is an ongoing story and no matter what a photograph will always only reveal a 1/125th of a second of it.
w. robert,
Above you say, ‘I think the question I really want to find an answer to is,
“why do you want people to look at your photographs?”‘
Also, “what do you want from that?”
Genuinely curious…do you want to find the answer to that question with regards to yourself? Is it rhetorical? Or is it a direct question for folks in here? If it is the former….no problem. But if it is the latter, why? That’s some serious audacity. Why should anyone be troubled to try and satisfy your presumptuousness? And lastly, why should you care why people want their work seen?
with the portraits, its important for me that the subjects see and like the the images of themselves. thats first and formost.
everybody gets the same treatment, and there is no special attention given, photographically, to anyone.
but the thing that i am proud of is that the people get their images, and that there is no $ attached, I shoot the portraits for free. most of the people I shoot, bar a few, are pretty low income, sometimes people drop off film, so i can continue, because I have no $ to speak of. but after that its not really important to me weather anyone else see’s the work or not.
what is important to me is that the people that i have photographed get the portrait returned to them.
the satisfaction is when I hand over that portrait.
I mean its nice when people look at my work, especially my peers. but it would not change anything if nobody looked.
I don’t expect anyone to answer my pushy questions especially that one, but I think its something worth thinking about.
obviously everybody is different, but I think there is a fairly universal thread that photographers want their work to be looked at, and appreciated, why is it presumptous to try and analyze this.
I guess another question I have is, if you new that no one was going to look at your work, would that change the way you shoot?
I dont expect anyone to answer that, but I wonder if anyone consciously thinks about it.
I just can’t help but think there is a certain level of vanity that photographers have, that when their work gets overlooked or ignored they get pissed,
some people cover it up with praise and back slaps, some people start ranting, like myself or a few others. but the common thread is, unless you are living in a cave, you want your work looked at.
anyway, I don’t really even think my work should be up on Davids site. I was not picked initially, only as an after thought, and I cant help but think i kind of forced myself up there by ranting on about the final essayists.
WROBERTANGELL…
you said “unless you are living in a cave, you want your work looked at”….hmmmm, seems to me there were a lot of people living in caves that certainly put pictures up on the walls assuming , i am sure, that someone would take a look!!!
actually, when i think back to my childhood and my first pictures, i did not expect anyone to look at them….i did not even show my pictures to the rest of family unless really pushed to do so (a big complaint of my father!)…even now, my friends will tell you that i am reluctant to show work….i usually show work only to students as a helpful “tool”..obviously i have earned a living showing my pictures to quite literally millions of people…but, that is an abstraction and never a goal…and , of course, most of them do not know they are looking at “my” pictures…they are just looking at the subject…basically, i think i must have made all those early pictures just so that i could see them….a simple reminder of time passing…or memory…it is often a pleasant surprise if someone else may enjoy the work, but i try not to think about that too much or for too long..
i too get my biggest kick out of giving pictures to the people in them…”Living Proof” was done just so that i could see the expression on the faces of my “boyz n the hood” when they saw themselves in print!!..i wanted a book THEY would like…direct, simplistic, all full bleeds..i gave them all dozens of prints….at no point did i ever think i was doing a “photo book” for my colleagues “to like”..
your pictures were not picked as an “afterthought”…your pictures, and the work of about 25 others, just were slow to be uploaded because we have been trying trying to get the new site done since before Christmas…had that been done, your work would have been up on the first day…perhaps your triptychs were not up in the so called “finalist” (a name never given by me, but by others ) category…however out of the 250 essays submitted, certainly in the top 25 and definitely work i have been wanting to show..
and i have zero reason to bs you…or anyone….remember, we were just trying to show the range of the audience here..that is all….the stipend is incidental….but, because of this , we have more funding for more people already….
relax wrobert….you are a thoughtful “deliberate” photographer….just keep working the way you do…no need to justify….your work speaks….and all of us are looking at your work!!! do some more!!!
cheers and peace, david
“why do you want people to look at your photos?”
on a very basic level i suppose it’s about communication and what it means to be human. humans communicate and weather it’s ideas or information or whatever it’s the nature of the species. sometimes when people become famous they become “artists” but we are all creating and expressing ourselves creatively in nearly everything we do from making a great pot of chili to matching my pants and shoes and shirt together when i leave the house. i think one of the fundamental reasons for art is that it is a form of communicating. people who write or create want someone to look at thier work because they have something to say.
Now, “What do you want from that?
On a very basic level shrinks tell us that everyone wants to be heard and valadated and recognized and accepted and loved and blah blah blah. this can come in many ways with $ being the least at times, unless you are making a living at it. if it’s family photos it’s a reminder, sometimes only to yourself, of people, places, relationships, feelings, experiences, etc. for other photos it’s a way of seeing and expressing in shapes and colors and forms. sometimes it’s kind of like a game of putting pieces together and seeing things in ways that are meaningful or pleasing to me and maybe or maybe not to someone else. a harmless pursuit i suppose…if it doesn’t become too self indulgent at the expense of……
now, another thing regarding an earlier post by w robert. style versus content. what i was saying is kind of summeed up in an out of date book “The elements of Style”:
“thereforethe first piece of advice is this: to achieve stly begin by affecting none – that is, place yourself in the background. a careful and honest writer does not need to worry about style. as he becomes proficient in the use of the language his style will emerge, because he himself will emerge, and when this happens he will find it increasingly easy to break through the barriers that sepate him from other minds, other hearts – which is of course, the purpose of writing, as well as it’s principal reward.
thanks David,
I really appreciate your thoughts on my questions, I must say you have a really calm way of communicating, and it really comes through on the post ups.
Its been a really tough post up this incomplete one, I think in many ways I have been pretty aggresive, in the way I communicated my questions and realizations, I went back and reread my comments, and thought, i’m just not really making my self clear or whatever, its been a difficult thing for me to process this one, “incomplete” i don’t know why, it just leads me to other questions that I have a hard time dealing with and the more I tried to sort things out in my mind, the more it seemed as though I was getting further from the mark.
anyway, I am glad you came through on that last comment, I mean really, that is the best part for me too, well it certainly is crucial and very rewarding, giving back to the people that were kind enough to let me into their private life. with the close up portraits, in that photobooth and the lights, its pretty intense.
also I have a back log of new work that is waiting to be scanned and cleaned up,
JAY…
everyone should keep e.b. white’s little book by their bed side!!! thanks….
WROBERT…..
this was a good thread…got us all going a bit!!! that’s ok i think….a good question or thought forces all of us to think about our motives, results etc etc…
in any case, we will all wait to see your “back log”…
cheers, david
CATHY, thank you for the info about
Alex Webb this week in L.A…
I’m afraid to go because I dont wanna have
somekinda HECKLING “relapse”…
but remember: I’m not the one that crucified
Jesus… But then again… maybe I’m lying…
anyways, I will be the guy in the back ,
with the red rose in my teeth ( or in my hair ),
so if you see me, please say hi…
kidding… thanks again
also I totally agree with David about WROBERT’s medium format great work…. The delayed post on the website of Wrobert’s work it is not an “afterthought”…
to me the delay was simply a mistake…
Wroberts work shouldn’t just been included in the 10 best, but probably in the 3 best category…
wrobert , keep it up…
PANOS…
yes, and there are several more photographers coming who you will like as well…it was not really a “mistake” as much as my “over enthusiasm” for what was going to be technically possible before Christmas…and totally overwhelmed on how much work it was all going to be…on the other hand, if it is to be viewed as a mistake, then it is my mistake alone…
did you go see alex webb???
cheers, david
David,
Alex Webb is “on” this Friday…
but… DAH’s blog is taking all of my time…
I can only “do” one “magnum” guy at the time..
I have a weird feeling that if I go I will keep
posting “crap” through my freeky phone again…
anyways… kidding…
I’ll keep you posted if I make it… its my girlfriend’s
birthday on Friday , made plans since last year…
god damn…
David,
Alex is not till Friday night for the public and then I will be with Alex and Rebecca in the workshop over the weekend. Please see my posts about him above…including asking for your advice on how to be a “good workshop student”
I know you are trying your best to get the rest of the submissions posted but I sure wish I knew which of my images you are planning to post…it would help me as far as deciding on selecting 30 images to bring to show Alex…something I am struggling with this week! Almost all will be NOT the ones I submitted for the assignment but maybe I will pick a couple from there.
Any message you want me to give the Webbs?
Too bad most are probably not reading this thread any longer.
It seems possible that I will be the first of our group to meet Panos…HELP!!!
Oh…maybe not.
Better not ruin the girlfriend’s birthday Panos.
(sigh of relief) :))
Seriously, let me know if you are going… I’ll find you and decide if I want to introduce myself.
CATHY….
there is no way i can tell you how to be a good workshop student with alex or with anyone…i think the fact that you are taking the time to even do a workshop is enough….most good workshop teachers only want to get “inside your head” and let you fly….most do not want you to be “like them”….just relax….enjoy yourself …alex and becky are both patient and great teachers by all accounts…
cheers, david
I’d like to learn how to make pictures that are less complete! It’s such a hard balance! Sontag says that family photos are the most arranged kind of photos there are. People smile and pose and you KNOW what you’re going to get what you snap that picture.
When I take a photo I can often see how it will turn out in my head. Sometimes I catch the idea I was working for and everything comes together in the frame, but in a way, that takes the surprise out of the process. Shouldn’t your work keep surprising you to keep things fresh?
When I shoot haphazardly I don’t feel that I have enough choice in the final picture. Yes I may get something interesting, but was it really something “I” made? I want my work to be heartfelt. I would like it to be a reflection of my feelings and not simply editing skills.
Honestly, this is something I’ve always loved about what the magnum photographers do! There are heads cut off, single limbs and arms poking into the frame, lots of diagonals and dynamic framing. Content and form have a nice dance with each other…How do I get there!!
Maybe I should shoot with a 20mm and crawl around on my belly on the time ;-P That’ll be a different look.
I guess what I’m saying is, I’m still trying to discover how to anticipate…
Watch this, so you know whats gonna happen when i’m gone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIT3xvCHQG4&feature=related
David, is it possible to ban these moronic, off-topic, ad hominium attacks? It’s like having a small child throw a tantrum in the middle of an interesting conversation.