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Path to the Ring
Blood and glory, for who, the bull or the “novillero”?
I met this troupe of young Mexican bullfighters one February afternoon in San Miguel de Allende. Their bravery and unparalleled commitment to the centuries old tradition of “Tauromaquia”, led me to explore the path they follow in hopes of fame and glory. A path restricted in the past to children, especially girls.
Paola, eleven at the time, represents Mexican childhood’s departure from normalcy as they step into a daily routine of training where cape and sword rule. In their altered world there are no video games or IPods. Just dreams, dreams of scarlet plazas in distant lands, dreams shattered not only by horn and hoof, but also by greed and pain.
Photographs: Raul Touzon
Website: www.touzonphoto.com
GORDON…
yes, i was surprised to see Anne’s Geddes name in with the others as well…i am sure she would too…
i would hope that none of you would hold back on anything…say what you feel please please….and yes, sometimes the ranters do make for the best conversation….but, as you said, an identification makes it have a bit more cred…
one thing i must tell you..and i think i have mentioned it before…i have been under major pressure from many of my colleagues and most of the readers at BURN as well, to eliminate all comments from published essays …most BURN readers just do not want comments….most BURN readers do not comment….period. many feel very strongly about this…their point is that what magazine allows it’s readers to comment on every little thing?? yes, letters to the editor, but not comments directed at the published stories in the way we do it now…something to consider….
the case FOR commenting is of course that this is the way of the net…keeps us all engaged…..maybe there is a compromise position on this and i am up for trying out new ideas always…one of the problems for me would be that if we eliminated comments on the essays, then i would have to post a whole lot more stories under Dialogue to keep the conversation going…as i did on Road Trips…this would end up being a whole lot more work for me…because i would still be editing the same AND writing as before….hmmmmm
anyway, we are still waiting to have enough stories which will go into “works in progress”…many say this should be the place for comments , yet leave the top of the page published essays alone…..
your thoughts??
cheers, david
Hey Raul,
When you say “Zapotec bride”, do you mean Sophie, the one we were shooting on Wednesday? The flower she made in the end was absolutely amazing! But back to commenting on the show, my mouth was open the whole time you showed the class this essay, akward i know, but its not everyday i get to see something like it. I cried a little on the way home on the plane, and was welcomed back to Ottawa with 10cm of snow. I would go back to Oaxaca in a heartbeat. Thanks again to both you and David for the great experience.
Absolutely, David. I have a link to a website you need to check out. Where do I send the link.
David,
I am teacher now and I am more than very very emerging photographer (I don’t see problem with that), and probably I will be quite good teacher… as long as photography will be my passion of course.
I hope it will stand with my passion as long as you.
best
Marcin
I understand what you are saying David. I too am torn about the commenting. Sometimes it works and sometimes it becomes noise. Maybe give it more time and see how it evolves.
By the way, I resent you that email from a few days ago. Did you get it? And I am not sure about that “prima donna artist” comment…. My creative moment was alcohol induced… Maybe thats what I need… Absinthe and a camera!
Pete,
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder…
David
For the moment, I hope you leave the format as it is.
I have found the comments, and the opportunity to comment, has been inspiring, thought provoking, educational, and very exciting. I walk around all day with images and comments and questions swirling around in my head. It has forced me to examine my own feelings and attitudes and points of view. Please don’t stop now. I’ve been craving this kind of contact and stimulus for a long time.
I love being able to click on the name of a poster to see where they are coming from, follow their links and your links etc. My only complaint is that I am spending way too much time on the site. I do need to make a living, and have a life outside photography. (I’m always telling young photographers that photography is what we do and who we are, but cannot be all we are.)
Anyway my fear is that you will not be able to keep up the pace, and that Burn will loose some of its’ intensity. It seems to have a great balance at the moment. Just hope you or it will not crash and burn. It’s a great ride so far.
David,
Concerning your musings on whether to keep or dump the comments section from the posted photo essays and selected photographs… I understand your dilemma, of course. Personally I would keep the comments for now… I think many of us recognize that a lot of the ongoing energy and interest comes from the banter in the comments section. (For example, I have only intermittent access to broadband, so it’s often several days or a week before I can see the essays in their entirety, but reading daily comments keeps my interest and attention up). And despite lapses, most of the comments are constructive in the broadest sense. I think you might want to poll the photographers whose work has been posted… do they find the comments interesting and helpful? Would they prefer not to have this feedback?
I guess which way you jump depends partly on whether you see the work you post under Photo Essays and Selected Photos as being essentially ‘finished’, ready for prime time… or how sharp a distinction you want to make between that and “Work in Progress”… and that relates to where you envisioning putting the emphasis of BURN… it is part teaching seminar, part showcase, but where do you see the center of gravity falling between those two?
I don’t quite fully understand the motivation of those who want so strongly to dump the comments that they are pressuring you to do so… after all, no one forces them to read the comments, do they? As for “…what other magazine does this?” I think that is a bogus argument being made by people who seem to be carrying over prejudices from the old print media. (Or do you mean that possible money donors are pressuring you???) The comments generate energy and attention… sometimes it is more heat than light, but it is still energy.
There’s another consideration I’m sure you’ve pondered. Road Trips and Burn have both generated a community… true, it’s one based on an interest in photography, but the community goes beyond attention on particular pieces of work. As you say, to keep up that level of free-form interaction, either you personally would have to write more, as you did on Road Trips, or you need to keep the comments sections as open as possible. Do you really think it ideal to confine the party to one room (Dialogue) or two rooms (add Work In Progress)?
David, I know that for you the deeply held mantra of many years has been “Magazine, Book, Exhibition” but I think maybe you’ve already transcended those categories here. Of course I look forward to a magazine coming out of BURN, but is that really all it’s about?
Thank you Raul, I enjoyed your piece very much.
Bullfighting is certainly about tradition. It’s interesting how in Spain too some of the top bullfighters today come from families of toreros or bull breeders. These are families with usually plenty of money, so these bullfighters are not risking their lives for the money. I think they indeed find it an honor to get in the ring with the bull. As David mentioned before, many bullfighters have paid with their lives trying to get there, and many also when they were at the top of the ranking. All bullfighters have their bodies cris-crossed with scars, almost carried as “medals of honor”.
In the past, on the other hand, becoming a bullfighter was often a way out of poverty and misery. Many came from very humble origins and becoming a bullfighter was the equivalent scape from poverty to becoming a pro soccer player for a poor kid in Brazil, or an NBA star for a kid from a ghetto in the USA. A famous bullfighter was once asked how dared he get so close to the bull, wasn’t he afraid of being stabbed by the bull’s horns? His answer: “mas cornas da el hambre” or “hunger stabs you worse”. He ended up being killed by a bull while bullfighting in Madrid.
Oh, and something I think has not been mentioned here. Bulls do have a way out of the ring alive. The bravest, those who will not stop fighting during the corrida will be pardoned, cured of the injuries and sent back to the fields to spend the rest of their lives as studs.
Just my 2 cents on bullfighting…
DAVID
A printed magazine is static: I learn a finite amount from each issue.
BURN is dynamic: I see no end to what I will continue to learn from the photographs and from many of the commenters. Eliminating the ability to comment would reduce BURN to just another photography site.
Cheers,
Asher
i commend david’s pc-ness in addressing/defending the contents of burn when you (david) did not really have to. it is quite obvious. but you may need to save your post in a file as some other rash commentator might come along. i always foresee repetition in attention seeking diagnosable behavior.
though i hope the comments still are welcomed in the future, i wish burn readers will have some sensitivity to the labor and time these photographers have put into the essays and think clearly each time we leave comments for them to read-whether they be positive or negative. i hope raul will just brush off R.ANT’s ignorant comments, plod on and stare at the oaxaca sun.
as for content; once i spoke to nevada weir about her work, about how when i viewed her pictures, i felt she was photographing me. see, i came from that side of the fence and have lived that life. i felt that she truly appreciated my comment because to most here in this free country, everything, everyone in her pictures is exotic. but once you become like the subjects you photograph in a photojournalistic venture, you begin to understand and transcend the gory, the horrible, the unthinkable, the poverty — everyday happenings in another person’s life — and find peace and pride and the humanity beyond the daily struggle for survival.
all effective photojournalistic work strive consciously or unconsciously to evoke emotion and certainly raul, whether he calls himself emerging has done it here. raul has socked us in the guts, gave the uppercut with the invisible skinned knuckles of his camera lens; not necessarily open our eyes to an issue but to show us the bullfighters have their own lives too.
i have no clout to point out which pictures were more effective than others, the essay as a whole was incredible. and has left me with some unidentifiable emotion to make a difference… somehow.
David, speaking as a regular visitor to BURN, I keep coming back as much to read the comments and enter into discussions with my peers as I do to see the photos and watch the slideshows. If the comments were eliminated from the essays and selected photos, I think many of us would only check back in once a day or every other day depending on when we thought you’d be posting a new essay or selected photo. As it is, I’m in and out of here several times a day…and loving the interaction, even when folks like R.Ant show up.
Speaking as a photographer whose essay has been published here, I would have been terribly disappointed if there had been no opportunity for viewers to leave comments. I learned so much from their responses to my work.
I can understand that potential sponsors, established Magnum-level photographers, editors, publishers and gallery owners might find the comments bothersome. It certainly keeps BURN from having a pristine appearance. And sometimes our discussioons get downright messy.
I guess it’s up to you, David, to decide for whom you’ve created this venue, what you see as its primary purpose, and how much time you have to devote to it. Because, if you want this to continue being an interactive site, you will either need to retain the comments on photos/essays/work-in-progress, or go back to writing Dialogue threads with questions as you used to do on Road Trips. Personally, I don’t see where you’d find the time to do that. To be honest, I don’t see where you find the time to do all you’re doing now! But, hey, you’ve got more energy than any nine people I know.
Patricia
“Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.” Ye gods! Admit it, Sidney, you’ve been waiting for years to work that one into a conversation.
Without the interactive component, I would not visit as often. I read all the comments on each story. Very interesting stuff. The web is interactive.
I am with those here who don’t swallow this dead bull image easily. But i also think that all this very intense, interesting, passionate debate wouldn’t be possible without it. I have in my mind now those paleolithical bull hunting representations in caves that are used to be taught in history of art… thinking about magical shamanistic interpretations…
Nothing fascinating on seeing a massacre. Is true. But much can be thought/felt and said from this, as seen. Somebody pointed out on machismo and power issue in the 30’s and well, this essay is much about young girls… about a culture, about Latin America, where all this is far from just being a minor aspect… Just above the bull head you can find her shoes… Only from this i think we’re not looking just a cliché, but a reflection… I really don’t think i perceive Raul is just taking the part of the bull killers at all.
I have much to thank here. From the pictures to every comment. As a i read the first ones Bob Black did, i went back to the essay in a complete different way. And i want to go back to his own essay another time from this perspective.
And at this point i think i have to say i am learning myself a lot through you people of BURN… i hate people being complaisant , and i hate thinking of myself appearing that way , but i must thank a lot every body here for putting skins and bones on this project. And much to the curator and editor for risking and for sharing. This ‘bridge’ to the other side, whatever everyone`s other side could be, is something not easy to find. I appreciate that.
I listened a lot about Raul in Oaxaca, i have the access to his work now…
Cheers,
Eduardo.
JIM…
or do you prefer James??
ok, great….this will give you some real editor input which will be most appreciated…thanks.
please send the link of the photographer you recommend right on to submissions here on BURN…and in the comment box just say the essay or single is coming from you…i think this the easiest way..then we can set up a dialogue with either you or the photographer or both….
i want you to have fun with this…your salary for doing this is exactly the salary i pay myself for BURN…zero!! but, you will be making a real contribution and then YOU can catch all of the flak from someone else who just does not understand your choices!!
cheers, david
Akaky,
Sorry to disappoint, it was just beginner’s luck I’m afraid. You are the Master, I but a bumbling novice. I badly need new glasses… when I first read Pete’s post, I actually thought it said “…Absence- and a camera!”
SIDNEY, PATRICIA, GORDON , JIM, ASHER
thank you for your comments (yes, comments are read and do generate other comments!!)
no matter what , i was never considering not having us interactive….we have always been interactive… and long long before i ever published one single picture from the readership here, our comment stream was off the charts…don’t you remember that we would have up to 700 comments per story on Road Trips???…and none of it was specific critique on readers photographs…as a matter of fact, we had way more comments than we do now..go back to the archive and take a look…..
so, it seems pretty obvious to me that picture critique is not necessarily the only way to have a dialogue…for example Patricia, we could have put your essay into “work in progress”….you would have gotten exactly the same amount of feedback…you have already changed your lead picture since you were published as a “final” and i would imagine we will do some more tweaking before we take your essay to a publisher….Panos’ story is going to be re-edited a bit, as are several others..if all of the commenting on essays were in “work in progress”, then by the time it was locked down and absolutely “perfect”, then it would be presented as a finished essay…we would then categorize the story as “finished essay” or whatever we wanted to call it, put it at the top of the page, and it would be locked down..done…no comments necessary at that point…make sense?? we would have way fewer stories in this “done” category than we do now, but perhaps they would be much more unassailable…
this would also encourage some photographers who are pretty high up on the “emerging” list who just are not interested in their stories receiving “public approval”…for example, a photographer as accomplished as Mike Brown might not want to be published on BURN because why would he want to have his story in effect “voted on”??…now, it turns out Mike is a good sport and everyone loved his essay, but not every photographer feels that way…so, some photographers want feedback…many do not…the ones who do could easily be placed in “work in progress” for constructive feedback…
furthur proof of not necessarily needing picture critique to be interactive on BURN, is right here right now on this thread under Raul’s bullfighting story..i mean right now we have all hijacked this thread so many different ways..about 30% of the comments right this minute under this essay have absolutely nothing to do with Raul’s essay..sorry Raul!!! and this happens all the time with almost every essay..again, please go back and read….
in any case, all of you have been so eloquent in pushing to keep things lively , interactive and having BURN be the place where you can be most expressive..believe me, i appreciate this more than anything…i always have, and i have always said so …..
i think it is just a matter of when and where and how we do it….by the way, there is no pressure on me from Magnum or any potential sponsor…the pressure i am talking about is just a peer pressure of the kind to just make things more sophisticated and classy…the way that one photographer might talk another photographer friend out of running the wrong picture on the cover of his book…in fact, in the same way we all talk about essays and singles here…after all BURN is an essay…an essay of a different kind to be sure…a collaboration between thee and me…i just want it to be the best it can be….
i know you feel the same…and i so so appreciate your input…any more thinking you have based on my new comment will be read very very carefully…see, we ARE interactive and always will be!!
cheers, david
Maybe the bull in the ring action isn’t important. I agree with Panos – the wide up close shots are so strong that anything else just collapses. Leave the “sports” shots out – we’ve all seen bullfighting matador action shots ad naseum and these don’t add anything. The thing here is the behind the scenes and training and the fact that they are youth. Keep it to the intimate shots and you have one heck of an essay. I understand the action shots are probably the most important ones for the kids involved (I’m sure when you show them the photos that’s what they gravitate towards the most, themselves in action) but not for audiences at large. #13 says it all when it comes to the actual fight and is one of my faves. #6 and 11 are fantastic as well. Good work – just don’t get sidetracked by what you think “has” to be in it.
Best,
Charles
David,
As I understand what you are saying now, it means expanding the “Work In Progress” section beyond what what was originally envisioned (I remember somewhere your writing that you would mentor 5 or 6 photographers towards a book through that channel). So more emerging photographers’ work would be shown there (both essays or parts of essays, and singles as well?), and the ‘Top of the Page’ would be reserved for finished, polished work with no comments…? Just trying to clarify exactly what you mean. And it would be between you (or whoever else might be acting as editor) and the photographer whether their work goes in the “comments yes” or “comments no” category?
As you explained it, the problem now is photographers who you feel deserve a showing but who don’t want their work dissected or argued over publicly … not necessarily because they are thin-skinned, but because they prefer (and deserve) a ‘classy’ presentation and our noisy rants would be mostly a distraction. I have no personal problems with that, if it is the photographer’s choice. (Although I’m willing to predict that at least some comments and responses to their work will show up anyway, only on other threads, possibly ‘hijacking’ them a little. Don’t know how you can get around that entirely without heavy policing of the discussions).
I never dreamed you’d scuttle or stifle ‘interactivity’ per se… of course not! My concern was that comments would not be invited for the same wide range of photos, both essays and singles, that we have seen up till now… yes, threads get hijacked somewhat, and some of the discussion could just as easily take place somewhere else… but a good deal of it is specific to the single photo or essay and from what I’ve read here I think at least some of the photographers, and many of the commenters, have benefited quite a bit from that.
Here’s an idea in terms of mechanics… instead of bumping some photos and all comments to “Work in Progress”, how about keeping things more or less as they are now, but adding a new category, “Showcase”, which then becomes the ‘Top of the Page’?
Incidentally, mi compadre, I never doubted that you read all the comments and think very carefully before responding…it always shows up in your responses.
Cheers and Good Luck,
Sidney
It still seems all very schizophrenic, still confusing what it is you are trying to do with Burn. You can’t just shoot at a whole flock of ducks in the air in hopes of hitting one.
A classy teaching site featuring everything from Magnum pros to “emerging” photographers, who might be anything from beginners to working professionals? Photographers who want to present their work but don’t want it commented upon? What value is that? To the community or the photographer? I know you want this site to appeal to a broad range of photographers, but maybe that’s not realistic.
You’re a brave man, David!
“and Kathleen, in no way is dissing an essay brave or courageous, it’s just lazy, flat out lazy, period.”
I don’t know but i suspect you’re dissing my comment about dissers. I made a distinction between those who trash an essay with 1/2 liners consisting of 6 words and those who make an effort to articulate their dislike, disapproval, even disdain. With the former, i get nothing. No insight, no benefit of years of experience, no quirky, daring or provocative criticism, nada. With the latter i have an opportunity to learn something and broaden my own mind. i might disagree totally but i value their input. i would not say this type of diss is lazy, flat out or otherwise. And i personally don’t give a damn if they are anonymous. Lots of people on the web prefer not to expose their real names to the spying eyes of search engines. And while R. Ant is clearly a pseudonym, how do we know that other contributors’ names haven’t been photoshopped as well?
Seems to me that what ruffled many a feather at Burn was R. Ant’s intense criticism of the magazine’s content. If he had written a paragraph of flowery praise i am sure his anon’ status and bad spelling would have raised nary an eyebrow.
David….
I think a body of work will always have a viewer wishing something was different,
something added,
something left out….
I like the idea of works in progress for comments and finished essays, being just that, finished…
I like the photog being able to choose how they want their work viewed on BuRN..
I think its just as beneficial to see a ‘finished’ essay, with no comments
as it is to engage in dialogue about images that are still being worked with..
**
They have been photographed and documented many, many times. Although illegal, they continue to happen. Over the years I’ve photographed many raids on puppy mills, with hundreds of dogs packed into tiny, unsanitary cages, covered with sores and at the point of starvation. But publishing those photos has not reduced the incidence of puppy mills in the area. I refuse to shoot “still another puppy mill” anymore when alerted of a raid. Everyone gasps, “Oh, my god.” And nobody does anything.
John Gladdy said:
“…February 22, 2009 at 6:56 am
My Dear Mr ANT. Your tone sounds incredibly familiar. Seems I have heard it before (Sounds like me in another place and time actually)…”
… tell me about it, John…
tell me,about it…
(laughing)
CATHYYYYYYYYYYYY…
you were right on about the OSCARS…
your favorite movie “SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE” just got the ultimate award: an OSCAR…
goodnight.. live from LOS ANGELES…
SEAN PENN also got one…
Jim said:
“Oh, my god.” And nobody does anything.
NOBODY EVER DOES ANYTHING JIM…its what YOU & me are doing, that counts Jim… not them!
SIDNEY…
thank you so much for your well thought out comment…and i will take it to heart…i got just a little confused at the end when you suggested i keep things more or less the same, focus a lot on work in progress and then have a new category Showcase…isn’t that contradictory?? that would mean there were sort of two works in progress… your idea of Showcase i agree with completely and isn’t it exactly the idea i presented??…or did i read you all wrong???
JIM…
damn man, you are just never going to GET what i am doing here!! what i am doing here is what i am doing here….yes, i like to mix it all up and yet ultimately take everybody down a very straight line…a line that hopefully leads to a photographer finding his or her own voice…i have my ways Jim of achieving that goal…i do it all the time in my classes and i suggest you come to one…as my guest of course…anytime…i know how to squeeze talent out of someone…push them…ask themselves what they really have to SAY…however, it takes a long time on line to get to the same point you could get to in a few hours in person…so, yes this is a tough way to go…
in any case, i am not asking you to understand..at least not yet…but, i would ask you to think about it…and a very big by the way, i am not TRYING for any “wide audience”…or , trying for any audience…the audience i have here on line Jim, is exactly the same audience i had before i ever hit the keyboard…
hey Jim, you never answered my question about Bill Allen???
cheers, david
WENDY…
we agree…not so surprising!! yes, i just do not see anything to lose…there will still be lots of discussion…the same , or more, i would guess….in any case, wishing to see you soonest…
hugs,david
David,
Me again. Sorry if I muddied the waters and confused you… what (I think) I meant was, if you wanted to preserve “Work In Progress” for personal mentoring of a very limited number of photographers specifically towards books, going “all the way”, as originally envisioned (?), also wanted to continue posting single photos and essays of a broader spectrum that were fair game for comment (as you have done up till now, and as I and apparently at least some other commenters would prefer), but also wanted a new category that would be reserved for finished work without comments (i.e. Showcase) which would appear as the cover page of BURN… (maybe that is way too complicated?)… so yes, in a way, it would mean there are two slightly different types of “Work In Progress”… whether you call them that, or something else, doesn’t matter to me…
But don’t let’s get hung up too much on the specific categories or their names… you have explained enough so that I am confident that however you work the mechanics out, your intentions are in line with many of our wishes and all will eventually be well.
And another ‘incidentally’… I don’t know about Jim Powers, but I have a loose connection with Tyler, TX and Bill Allen…one of my closest friends in Japan, someone I ate lunch with and argued with for hours every Friday at a Thai restaurant for nearly 15 years, whenever we were both in town, grew up in Tyler next door to Bill Allen, they played ball together as kids, and still meet when he goes back to visit his parents. Once back in the mid 80s when Bill Allen was still a picture editor, my friend floated a story past him on one such visit, and sent him some of my photos… Bill Allen said he liked my pictures, but they decided not to pursue the story… too much coverage of Kyoto and the Kansai already in the magazine during that era was the excuse.
David, I don’t live in the city Tyler, Texas. I live in Tyler County, Texas. So, Bill Allen and I are about 140 miles from each other.
panos, after many years of shooting tragedy and misery, I spend my time shooting mostly upbeat stuff of people in the community. Nachtwey has shown people the horrors of dozens of wars (and Nachtwey is in my top five list of favorite photographers), and it hasn’t made a bit of difference. Since I’m at a point in my career when I choose what it is I want to shoot, I don’t bang my head against nearly as many brick walls. A camera is an incredible window on the world, but not a very effective weapon against its evils.
John Gladdy, you are fast becoming my hero!
Reminds me the best (and strongest) bullfighting shot I’ve seen is this one by Cristobal Hara:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2378/2091734526_3fce4f5ebc_o.jpg
Some of his stuff is published by Steidl. He somehow manages to have a pretty approachable style.
David, ‘Kiss my Ant’
hehehehehehehehehe……
BTW, Viva the ‘messy bits’
Hi Jim,
I hope that this does not make you feel beleaguered but I honestly can’t cop your last comment.
So why does every photo have to make a difference on a grand scale?
Why can’t a photo simply generate a personal response of pleasure for the viewer?
And why does everything have to fall into a category of ‘emerging’ or ‘established’?
I have been around for a while and I consider I am only truly emerging into what I really do and say (visually) NOW -I still have a way to go before I really can do the book I want to… and I have worked editorially for too many years.
Some things need nurture before they fully mature.
I don’t agree with all of the choices on BURN and certainly I have disagreed with some of the photographic practices of some of the photographers but what is really great about BURN (sorry but I actually have never favoured the name either) is that you can see potential everywhere.
I mean I would never have seen Michael Brown, Panos, Amanda Lucier, Mustafa Abulaziz and many others without BURN and while I consider that some of the photographers are more developed than others you can see where some of them are heading and thats really exciting!
Its the new era of interactive, crowd sourcing, connectivity and you have to develop your own filters for swimming through all thats out there and working out what is good for you, but the net is never going to be anything but an evolving work in progress, not one thing will ever dominate it and create the Elvis Presley phenomenons of the past.
It can’t- it simply is not designed that way.
So while critique is useful, curmudgeonly about the state of the photography is really just an opinion as well so really why not just completely remove those static walls you have bashed your head against? Go with the flow…
Its life Jim but not as we know it…
(And yep I have waited a lifetime to use that one to make a point!)
Kathleen I for one would like to say that if anyone was silly enough to try and adopt my name, well then they deserve the dissing of all!
Can you imagine the nicknames I got labelled with when I was a kid?
‘Pigpen’, ‘Hogwash’, ‘Piglet’ (though I don’t mind that or ‘Hoggers’ and I was mainly known as ‘Hoggy’)
Horrible though it was growing up with this moniker (and Dad Akaky I still blame you and those keilbasa merchants for separating me from my brother Bob Black and me ending up in a scientific experiment on the other side of the world from which I clearly derived my name- the scientific experiment I mean) I am somewhat proud of it and will always use it to defend my point of view in discussions and debate. Especially if I use swear words.
One wonders why anyone would use the net if they are worried about search engines, its quite easy to trace where a user originates from so if anyone really wanted more than general statistics well I am sure they could be found more easily using other means.
No not using your own identity on the internet is cowardice in my book.
Unless of course its my Dad Akaky, but I know he has his reasons…
I love how this project looks tied up so neatly.
trashing an essay does not provide insight Kathleen. Thoughtfully discussing ‘problems’ (and i use this work with reserve) or choices another photographer has made is an entirely different thing. My point has always been that if people approach work only through the immediacy of their personal feelings/points-of-view, well, god damn, we dont have much for the stature of photography do we? It means that we can’t even begin to appreciate or value work other than the work that clicks our personal knobs. I have never devalued the work of another nor have i dismissed another photographer/writer ’cause our opinions diverge. I wasn’t pissed at R.Ant because of his/her criticism of the content (I have been critical here as well, and continue to remain critical of how people talk or write about the work, maybe you’ve missed that?) and i dont think he misspelled names but instead played with the names…he’s being pretty ironic, and nothing wrong with that, though i found the ‘content’ of what he/she wrote not only labored but pretty empty, generally speaking.
i guess you and i have completely different understanding of what ‘diss’ suggests….but, as Joe so eloquently suggested, Im a black pot….
amigo:
snark, as originally intended, is pretty damn funny…and you’re brilliant…and THE snark, was pretty damn funny, whatever you see, but that’s different from what constitutes irony or nonsense now….and while i think Denby’s a bit uptight about all it, he does have some points which make it increasingly tiring to chat on the net…..but i’ll take your bronx-bread paranoia over most of the stuff i read any damn yankee-day of the year ;))
Well, Lisa, this is getting a little too philosophical for a thread on an essay on bullfighting, but I’ll respond. As for Burn, my opinions about it are just that. It’s Davids project, and he should certainly take it in any direction he chooses. He doesn’t need anyones permission or approval to do that, certainly not mine.
It’s the part of your post where you talk about “so really why not just completely remove those static walls you have bashed your head against? Go with the flow…
Its life Jim but not as we know it…” that interests me.
The Internet is all that you describe. But it’s open to debate whether it is everything you describe. Once all things are possible, many things lose meaning, becoming diluted in an infinite wash of content. Photography is an immediate victim of that dilutiion, with literally billions of photos awash in a sea without end.
As for me, James Taylor kind of captures it in “Bartenders Blues.”
“But I need four walls around me to hold my life, to keep me from going astray.”
I’m been online and participating in forums since the early 1980’s and Compuserve. My God, that’s almost 30 years, isn’t it! So, yeah, I guess I’m kind of curmudgeonly about this brave new online world and its promise for photography.
I join the praise of Raul’s photography – beautiful essay, beautiful images and so unusual flow of the story, as Bob has already pointed out. Definitely it is one of my favorites on Burn.
I also apologize for my rather dull and awkward language, I definitely can not keep up after beautiful passages by Bob, Joe and others.
Still I wanted to say a couple of words regarding the harsh reaction of viewers towards the what seems to be a barbaric sport, or art as it has been correctly defined here. All of us have a right to our own emotions, reactions, life perception that is based on our culture and life experience. It’s just very important to remember that this is our subjective perception and it might be quite different from that of the photographer. While personally, I must say, I despise bull fighting it has nothing to do with the beauty of this story. I find fast acting and expressing opinion based on conscience to be very dangerous. This does not give time to understand the motives and cultural aspects behind other people’s deeds. I find that I trust Hemingway (in spite of the fact that I do not share his love to bullfighting) because I can feel that he knew what he was writing about, and knew and respected both matador and a bull.
The judging attitude that is quite characteristic to many conscientious photographers makes me to recall the “progressor” series of novels by probably most famous and philosophical Russian science fiction writers – Arkadiy and Boris Strugatzki. It is interesting to read through these series to see the evolution of their ideology towards bringing the “good” into what seems to be retarded civilizations from total support to much more balanced and deep analysis of both sides of such relationships. Humanity is overloaded with the feeling of self guilt and trying to fix its own mistakes by helping out the “barbarian regimes” without their consent. At the same time it hates and fights the possible similar intrusion of the higher beings. What seems to be normal, noble to us may seem barbaric to somebody else.
Hi Bob… yes, yes, i see now, it’s simply our difference in using the word Diss..to me it’s to disagree for you it’s dismiss. So forgive me for my part of the tangled communication. As for R.Ant..i am not defending his position at all. You found his input empty regardless of the meandering text. Good point. But if i have to put up with something, i will choose R. Ant’s rant to one line of cryptic disregard any day. And no, i haven’t been here very long so haven’t seen that much of your posting. Matter of fact, i came here when they featured your essay which i liked a lot btw..
friends?
kat~
Bravo Raul. Very nice essay and your new website looks great. I still love #19…..it’s a classic little moment. I look forward to seeing this work as big prints on a wall and on the pages of a book. I am amused at how much bullshit your bullfight essay has engendered…..enough fertilizer to cover a small organic farm. Stay in the saddle mi amigo.
Un fuerte abrazo,
Medford
Kathleen: :))
sorry for the confusion, yes, i believe it was related to web communication. No worries. that’s the unfortunate nature of communicating through posts/comments rather than conversations in person. Language, especially written, is a virus ;)
all the best
bob
Hey Raul! I loved getting another look at the young bullfighters. Hope all is well! — Kendrick
classic photography of a classic subject.. enjoyed that very much, regardless of the right n wrongs.
Thank you all, for some reason this is not allowing me to reply to each one individually but your comments, suggestions and compliments have been a great learning experience. Hope our paths cross soon.
All the best
I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.
Thanks,
Joe
Just wanted to say thanks for the great post ! Found your blog on Google and I’m happy I did. I’ll be reading you on a regular basis ! Thanks again :)
Thanks,
Donna