i have been suggesting recently that it might be easier for discussion here if all comments came under Dialogue…this seems to be the right time to give it a try….as with all things, it is timing, timing and timing….
when i read Laura El Tantawy’s comment under the Chiara Tocci “selected single”, it seemed perhaps this was the right time to publish her essay “Fervent Spirits” which has been “sitting on my desk” now for awhile….i have closed comments directly under her essay , but i am wishing that it works for all of you to simply comment on Laura’s essay right here, and comment on the two singles by Chiara Tocci and Stephen Burrows in the context of a “whole”….after all, they seem quite related….
certainly history and the results of history play into everything we do and all that we believe to be true….truth is the mantra of journalists, but i think we can see clearly that there are many ways to unlock our minds and our vision and to accept the myriad of styles and juxtapositions a photographer might employ to get to the meat of history via the present….
we are bombarded daily with news…”breaking news”…pretty hard to keep up….television does not give us much time to think things through despite the incredible advantage of being in the NOW…however, our “stills”craft does allow for reflection….this is not to take away at all from those who devote their lives to bringing us daily knowledge of world events….journalists pay with their own blood almost everyday in this pursuit..but, here we have something else…a certain poignancy of “behind the scenes”…..the results of history, the effects of politics and , of course, religious context always (against it’s own will ) becomes embroiled in both…
my questions for you are simple…..does “news” affect the way you think about history or do you prefer written “think pieces” to help you shape your thoughts?? is photography just in it’s infancy as a language and can it editorialize the way words do?? do photographs which exist only because of their historical context help us coalesce our collective conscience and “sensitize” us to help us move into a new day???
bob
my comments weren’t aimed at anyone inparticular or meant to stifle conversation. just pointing out my perception. so please don’t take them personally.
in spite of the flaws with having comments beneath images or photo essays (trolls etc..) i thought that Burn had actually transcended the “club atmosphere” of road trip, and there were plenty of new voices getting involved. i personally felt happy dropping in every so often.
with this big, all inclusive comments thread, direction is lost, and it feels a bit more impenetrable.
maybe there is a middle ground somewhere?
Panos, you might want to look at
http://we-english.co.uk/blog/?p=490
Ian
ian
man oh man – you have no idea how close that it to what i am going to post here shortly..
thanks.. reading and rereading now..
d
BEN…
well, i think you are actually seeing the value of some kind of community at work here now…for example, right now your voice is being heard…and frankly i think you are right…there is some middle ground….i will go back to comments under each new photo post…..what i will now try is this: i will leave a Dialogue post always “up” at the bottom…that way , random comments that have nothing to do with the upfront photograph can go there…that is pretty much what we had except some might be more encouraged to go to Dialogue if it simply stays up on the “front page”….it is pretty obvious there is no perfect way to direct conversation, but i think this is probably the most likely way…
since we started Burn there indeed have been “new voices”, which as far as i can see, have been quite welcomed by the “old voices”….some aspect of “club” or hang out spot seems to just be a part of my life Ben…..in my “real life” i keep my doors open for new ideas, fresh air, and convivial conversation….even as a teenager i tended to get “the gang” together..then, as now, .we did not dress alike or look alike or act alike, but the “wholeness” of the communities of which i like to be a part are made up of unique and often challenging individuals….
one of the fascinating things that has happened here online ,that was even quite a surprise to me, was as i traveled the world either shooting or doing lectures/workshops etc. i have been able to meet in person so many of the writers here…starting with Rafal in Korea and quite literally meeting at least one writer on Burn at every single whistle stop….i.e. i assume i will be meeting you in June at the Magnum meeting…so, i think you may see how an online “family” has developed….but, if you consider that if in fact i am the so called “gatekeeper” of this community, and for all of my foibles, certainly i do not think that i could ever be accused of not welcoming someone into my home (literally) or in trying to cut off online conversation here wherever it may lead… by the way, the only official group that i have ever been attracted to is Magnum, and that is quite simply because the very definition of “group” is totally re-defined…i doubt you could find any two of us resembling the other at all…..i think you will see this quite clearly in June….i hope you will see it here on Burn as well….
cheers, david
p.s. oh yes, i think you may have sent me a package to New York….i have not acknowledged receipt of this since i am not now in New York….i will travel to NYC this weekend and will let you know soonest if this arrived…thank you in advance…
David, sorry I didn’t make myself clear. This one-thread system may make FINDING comments easier but it makes FOLLOWING them harder. At least for me. Everything is mixed in together, rather like the difference between a stew and a three-course meal. Sure, sometimes I like a stew, but day in and day out?
That being said, I can also see where having all the comments in one place would make your life as curator/editor a lot easier. It would mean you could just click on one thread and see everything that’s been posted during a particular time frame…and respond when/where/to whom you needed and wanted. In the multi-thread system it would be easy for new comments to get lost.
Regarding how long each essay stays on the home page, two days suited me fine. If viewers want to stay with a discussion they can and will. Several of the essays and selected photos have generated discussion after they’d been replaced on the front page.
Just one more thing. Yes, Road Trips was set up this way, but, David, I think we’ve outgrown the Road Trips mentality. I think we’ve shown on Burn that we’re ready for more focused, photo-based discussions. Sure we get off track sometimes but that’s normal for any conversation, online or in person. One thing leads to another. To my way of thinking, some of our most important discussions of photographic issues have little to do with the essay or selected photo that triggered them. That’s what I love about Burn–you never know where it’s going to go. But, one thing’s for sure, it’s going to be interesting. And photography related. I love it here! Thanks, David, for making this possible. And thanks to Anton, our behind-the-scenes web wizard. Burn is everything we’d hoped and more. Much more.
Patricia
David….
Create a new category in the column to the left called “Essay Discussions” or something like that and every time you post a photo or essay, also create a new post under that so people can discuss the specific work. That way you get no comments under the photos and also are able to keep the discussion on track for each subject. I would leave dialog as a place for random discussions and insist that people post there when not commenting on a particular work under the new category.
Your thoughts?
David – i have to confess that I have been snowed under with work and I’ve not sent the package yet!!
next week things are a bit more open and I will send it! apologies….
Yeah – I’ll put june in the diary. nice one.
Ben
Pete, that sounds like an excellent idea. That way we can have our cake and eat it too. Keep the front page and essays/selected photos clean and have specific discussions on each one as well. It would also allow for the photographers who do not want their work commented upon. There would simply be no link from their essays/selected photos to the discussions thread. The best of both worlds.
Patricia
ALL…..
okay – just posted a blog entry with a little vid on which i quietly talk about my hopes for the book i´m hopeing to finish editing by the end of spring..
i would LOVE to gather your impressions – david has kindly offered to help me with the last 100 meters of this marathon, and it would be a MASSIVE HELP to gather as many good, bad or ugly comments from readers here as possible.. so please watch the vid if you have 4.30 mins to spare and rattle some words, encouraging or not..
http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/03/editing-comments-sought-please.html
ps – i mumble – i know..
http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/03/editing-comments-sought-please.html
PATRICIA…
ok, yes, that makes sense….we have outgrown Road Trips… the system of comments honestly does not make any difference to me one way or the other, hence this discussion in the first place (i will be lost either way!!)…this is all for the readers to decide and i think you collectively have decided…i like to try out new things, but only will go with it if it makes sense to most of the readers most of the time….
in the next couple of months i am going to be one busy boy…the EPF submissions will be a full time job all by itself….the daily submissions for work to be published have gone right off the charts and i really do need at least another person to do preliminary editing….in any case, i wanted to get this part of it totally set up before i disappear now to Spain and then to the U.S. west coast for my family project…and then, yes, Look3 and our BURN presentation there…hmmmm,when and how am i going to do that???
you are quite right in thanking Anton…somehow he is able to help me no matter where he is (now Japan)…we get on Skype and i swear i can work with him easier than i can with most people who might be in the same time zone or even in the same room…the boy is amazing…without Anton we just could not do the essays…he is one very very patient man (dealing with photographers is, well, challenging) …i can do the “singles” alone easy enough, but building the slide shows etc. requires Anton…he is joining me in Spain to handle the tech part of my presentations and we can also work on organizing EPF and the Look3 show…..yes, yes it is all pretty crazy…..”never a dull moment” is an understatement….
however, i am now at my house on the shore pounding nails, planting shrubs, painting a bathroom, editing for BURN…spring is in the air and the cardinals sing and the salt spray invigorates…all is well…
cheers, david
DAVID
When you go to NYC this weekend I hope the Magnum office will be open so you can pick up the video mini-cassette I sent you. If not, maybe Michael C. could pick it up for you another time. Thanks.
Patricia
PETE…
isn’t that exactly what i just tried to do??? the title was “Dialogue” not “Essay Discussions”, but the concept was the same….what left hand column??? create a new category?? yet another blog spot??? you must be crazy amigo!!! love you (not as much as Jenny), but THAT would really confuse things….
cheers, david
David, I just read your latest comment. I actually have NEVER figured out how you do everything you do, but somehow you manage to make it look easy. And now you’re going into overdrive! Sweet that you have your beach home and its wonderfully physical demands as a foil for all the rest. Enjoy!
hugs
Patricia
DAH
with needing at least one more editor for essays and the like..
it has to be BOB i think.. mainly due to the way i think he would be able to order with thought and post relevant orders of pieces with.. TIMEING>
and anton THE GREAT in spain? will that mans feet ever touch the ground again?
:o)
d
BEN…
ok, cool…..just did not want you to think i was not paying attention!! as a matter of fact if you wanted to take it to the Magnum London office (ask for Fiona), they could forward it along to me in our daily packet..this would eliminate all shipping cost to you….
PATRICIA…
our office is not open on the weekend, but i will be there on Monday to pick up your package….Mike Courvoisier is another one to thank as you well know….on a day to day basis i could not even function without Mike…obviously i am not so self sufficient!!
DAVID B…
i think Bob is about as busy as he can get……he and i will meet in Toronto in May and perhaps i can buy him a cold beer and do an old fashioned arm twist??? i am ready (almost) to start editing with you…i have a feeling it will be from Spain starting next weekend…now you could come to Spain, join the incredible fiesta i will be shooting, and we could work one on one….like that idea???
cheers, david
David,
I meant right side.
Ok here is what I mean.
You have a category called Dialog on the right side of the blog. This is great and this is where the questions to the readers can be posted as you do and where all random conversations can take place.
Now, also on the right side, create another category called whatever you like (but something that makes it clear that this is where critiques and comments about the particular work is to be made), and under that you would have posts titled the same as the actual essay or photograph post. Here is where people discuss the work featured on Burn.
And also you would turn off comments directly under each essay or photograph post.
I would direct readers to the discussion section by mentioning it in each essay or photo post. You can probably link straight to it also.
does this make sense?
thanks david
i’m really close to ready.. going to organize an 80 photo edit tomorrow .. sequencing today.. which will form the basis of an exhibit application for visa.. chancing my arm, i know.. goo dplace for us to start though, i hope.
SPAIN.. hmm.. i do love it.. kind to ask.. thanks.
i am tied up with teaching and moving to bergen (moving again..) until the 19th of this month.. after which i could be able to visit on a 2 or 3 day trip..
where will you be and on what dates?
i’ll check flights..
i could always use photographing another festival in spain :o)
david
david
great, i have a meeting next wednesday just 2 streets away from magnum london. that sounds perfect.
ben
.. or i could try and get collage to buy you flights from spain for a day or two in norway, if you’d place a fire under some of my students for me :o)
fishing weather getting better and better.
d
David B…
agreed , no war…
I’m not gonna hide it , i just got offended the other day when i got compared to a DOG…
but obviously its not what you were implying…
Thank you for the LINK…
I never doubted you are working…& working hard….
(im just annoyed by photographers – NOT YOU AT ALL- that i personally know , that the only times they blog is only regarding EPF, regarding money and money only… )
and David B,
you posted a really cool movie link ( from brazil ) the other day that i didnt see right away…
A censored movie… needs to be reposted i think…
Just sent you couple emails to clarify things….
peace and hugs
( snow in big bear )
glad you read my email panos..
now.. onward..
not received anything in my inbox from you though…
no need.. take it easy
the guys who the vid belongs to have submitted it to burn for inclusion thankfully..
it’s here.
http://www.1854.eu/2009/02/censored_art_work_at_derby_fes.html
it well deserves an airing.
david
Ian hi…
you havent been here long enough..
dont be so fast to judge me ( although im used to that )…
..”Pseudo reference “… to friends ??
oh come on man… i know most of them here not only by name but also by “face”…
really, please stay a little longer with us and you will see…( please dont rush )
:)
& Ian, yes… thank you for posting your link , your blog…
Thank u for introducing yourself through photos…
thats what “BURN” Is all about… talk is good… but its good to post once in a while..
Really … you know like a newspaper…
like my little cousin used to say about books…” too many letters , not many photos, i dont like it”
Balance… Writing is great, but posting photos is cool too….
Again , thank you for linking to your blog…
;)
David B,
for real???????
too long BOBUS style emails…
hmmm…
either way, love u man… it was that “dog” thing that i obviously got it completely wrong…
sometimes i act like a sensitive little biatchhh myself…
I agree with ian too ( except from the “pseudo friends” )… but you can inform him
about our real life connections too..he is just new…i guess
and i know i will have a real beer with you sooner or later…
peace
(Ian, checking your blog right now, thanks again for posting )
yes… (not kissing David B’s ass although i should)
:)))))))))))))))))…
coz i messed up
( again David, my apologies.. you are a big man, bigger than me )
but thanks for that movie link… i watched couple times…
still thinking about it… its strong, havent seen anything OFFENSIVE ,
i dont know why it was censored, but i would love to see what people think here..
Actually, i need to watch it once more…
i dont know what to say at this point except the usual stuff… great, poetic… blah blah…
im waiting for the real eloquent ones here to get in..
Panos, Hi
I must clear things up, I wouldn’t be so presumptious as to post my blog here. the blog I posted is for a fine photographer and his views on editing.
If you want to see my pics you can look at http://www.aitkenimages.co.uk
cheers
Ian
cool panos.. emails all sorted..
have a great day..
david
the strange things about the chats on ‘family photos’ here recently is that it is where burn started – with ANTON and sugar..
family snaps..
the more personal the better..
i wish anton had more time to be here actually.
d
and please ALL
tear into my work if it so moves you.. good bad or whatever.. all appreciated..
http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/03/editing-comments-sought-please.html
time for dinner
david
I’m of the opinion that comments should appear,chronologically below the relevant image
or story.
I’m going to push Pete’s comment on adding a new sidebar category and suggest it go a little
farther.
At the risk of offending anyone I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that day in/day out
Panos and Bob Black are among the most prolific posters here-Panos for sheer number of posts
that consistently seem to ignite a spark under some peoples asses
and Bob for unbelievable stamina in piecing together words and thoughts that provoke new tangents
of discussion.
Unfortunately,my impression (and I may be incorrect) is that (A) these type of posts sometimes
steer discussion in a direction away from the image/story in play and (B) the posts contain
very interesting commentary that will, unfortunately get lost in the shuffle after a week or so
once discussions more on the new images/stories.
As such, I think these two individuals warrant their own editorial ‘columns’ where each can
really showcase, and contain, their respective styles.
For Panos I would suggest calling it ‘PanoRamble’ where he could package his thoughts,links,
and life in one semi-continuous stream of iPhone style texting dialogue.
Respondents in his column would be obliged to format their responses and dialogue in brief
semi-sentences and novel use of punctation.
Rules would be few and dialogue intense kinda like extreme fighting
For Bob, I would suggest ‘Black Ops’ or ‘Bone Shaker’
Bob has an amazing ability to source and present to many of us still,video, and written content that would
otherwise slip below the radar for many of us more old school mainstream types.
I really enjoy following your links in the assorted threads but,as mentioned, feel that many of
these valuable links and suggestions will be lost in a short timeframe and a better use of your
knowledge would be to contain this information in a more ‘structured’ place.
Of course, responses in your threads would be restricted to those willing to put in the time
to adhere to a 200 word minimun and accurate punctuation :>))
“the more personal the better..”
David Bowen,
I partly agree, but I don’t like to generalize. I like all styles and while “personal photograpy” is just great I like to see a mix of everything really. Selfportraits, deep documentary stuff and family snaps is cool, but to an extent, not only. I will soon go to Stockholm to see the Loretta Lux and Gursky shows. Can hardly call that personal? but still amazing? YES.
Cheers
Panos,
not sure if this is getting through, nothing is showing up in this thread, So I have posted again.
Sorry for shouting I just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings.
I MUST CLARIFY….that is not my blog…god I wish it was, he’s a great photographer.
If you want to see my work http://www.aitkenimages.co.uk
cheers
Ian
i personally like this new format. i find it easier to comment and less overwhelmed.
DAH – i am in route to NYC now – will be there till sunday. i’ll give you a call and try to see you. xo
martin..
you are right that it is the mix which makes burn so good.. balancing act though it is.
i have been thinking about chris steele perkins great book echos.. with regard to personal work..
it is such a pleasure to flick through and has all the hallmarks of a great book which is bumbling along at a pace we can all see.
personal work is fascinating.. shows us all what we can do..
“photographers are human beings with the flickering sight of a raptor`s eye, scanning the horizon and the nest.”
AND the nest.. love it..
david
and the chris steele perkins link
http://www.chrissteeleperkins.com/books-content.php?id=3
Mr Harvey/Anton, I just emailed the text.
Mark,
you got it. Great Idea
David,
great effort editing 10 years worth of pics, good luck with the whole project.
Editing is a nightmare, it is bad enough when using film and you might be a little cautious with the number of images shot, but with the digital era upon us and the exponential increase of images, real mind bender.
Sometimes I resort to the Rankin technique of letting others decide.
Hi Panos,
not sure why but my posts arn’t showing up.
I really want to make it clear that that is not my blog… I wish it was.
cheers
Ian
oh, Ian,
i need to wake up myself….
making coffee now….
MARK….
good idea…i know you are “tongue in cheek” but still a good idea….and i thought awhile back that Bob, Akaky etc would make great columnists…as a matter of fact, i have had Akaky write a bit of a “think piece” to go along with one of his photographs…
you said “commentary will, unfortunately get lost in the shuffle after a week or so
once discussions more on the new images/stories ..changes”…since we update daily, you lost me on this one….
seems like you could be a pretty decent contributor as well…and i do think i have one of your singles in the lineup for publishing…
cheers, david
IAN…
you may or may not know i am living now in one of the windsurf , kite boarding capitals of the world…outer banks of North Carolina..Cape Hatteras….stop on by, your most favorite thing happens right at the end of my street…and good landscapes everywhere….y’all come…
cheers, david
David,
Cape Hatteras???? I checked it on google… man…. wow… beach house…
hhhhhmmmmm….. I need a sea…. a wind…. an emotions…. or whatever…. ok… I am going to Baltyk…. two weeks from now… I neeed a sea…… we have winter here… everything is grey….. and sad….
Peace
David,
Very generous.
Cheers
Ian
MARCIN..
wait a minute, didn’t you just come back from the beach in Thailand?? or was that longer ago than i remember??..anyway, spring is coming everywhere…yes, even Poland!!! it is interesting how the sea rejuvenates…by the way, i know we were planning to meet in Perpignan, but i might be in Thailand in september…hope there is no conflict..i will let you know…
cheers, david
DAH…
Mark is NOT “tongue in cheek”….yOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED but there are actually people
out there that like me….( they are there..supporting me… even if i have to pay them!!!!!!!!)
Mark means it and i thank him for that… Ultimate recognition….
But i agree with you too…
You can give “my” column to Akaky….
He deserves it….
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
ian
do i ever wish it was all digital files..
editing mostly from negatives is tough tough tough..
i refused to shoot slide in the dark venues becaus it´s latitude is not so forgiving.. i needed the detail in the shadows.. same reason i never went digital on the project.
Rankin kind of bemuses me .. the kind of celebrity-as-photographer.. i like his portraits in part though i much prefere, say, pellagrins approach on show at the magnum blog right now.
http://blog.magnumphotos.com/2009/02/paolo_pellegrins_great_performers.html
actually Rankin photographed me once for a project he was doing with a hairdresser..
the hairdresser cut the hair in a free-style then he photoed the results.. i ended up with half mohawk and scattered tramlines like lightening.. in the Polaroid he gave me i look like a psycho..
¨you lookin at me? you LOOKING at me? well.. i´m the only one here..¨
yeps.
well.. getting on the london underground during rush hour was a breeze, with people getting out of my way.. strange how a haircut can form opinion on character.
thanks for looking at my snaps..
d
ian – also
i remember a documentary about salgardo where he supported a small industry who carried out his editing for him, and it disappointed me a little.. not to say i do not love his work..
seeing his contact sheets during the film was fascinating – aiming at 3 or 4 usable shots per roll and so only slightly different framing of 3 or 4 scenes on the roll.. taught me a great deal about how to shoot..
d