there is a little discussion going on in the previous post about "war vs. peace" photography and photographers…we can keep that one going, but i would also like to broaden the discussion a bit and chat about "subject matter" period…
how important is it with what you choose to photograph in the first place? do you think "great photographers" choose inherently "great subjects"??
so, just to get you thinking a bit more….please note that Ansel Adams did not set up his large format camera in Iowa…what would have happened if he did?? can you imagine Salgado shooting in a shopping mall in Los Angeles?….in discussing Allard, most of you referred to his photographs from the West (how important is the graphic element of the cowboys hats?) ….what about his stories on Thai elephants or Cyprus? ….does Nachtwey "need" conflict or war to be "great"? does Annie Leibovitz "need" celebrities to make her work sing?? must Mario Testino have "beautiful people" in front of his lens to be Mario??
these are just questions…questions that come up every time i meet with a photographer trying to find her/his way…i am not giving you my opinion (yet)…i want yours….
most "professional" photographers are, by nature, required to make any subject "look good"…they earn their living by lending their expertise and talent to a wide variety of subject matter….certainly the mantra for most professionals is the general thought that they should be able to go anywhere, anytime, and make "anything" look "dramatic" or at least "picture worthy"…
however, most of the photographers you mention here in your comments and actually "admire" do not do this at all…are they "smarter" by choosing the "right" subject or are they just "driven" to do what they do??
the long and short of it: are some subjects just "visually loaded"?? how important is this to you? where and how do you want to "take aim"??
David, Bob Black, Panos, Michael K, etc…
(David…), i gave PB a print of your message and he sends his love, too.
(all…) he has asked me to let everyone know that he thanks you all for your comments and promises to drop a line (or two) to answer your questions…
Susan Smith also says hi (she’s a reader here) and maybe she’ll write something…
All…
this saturday afternoon the Visão Photojournalism Awards 2008 conference put an end to this week “festivities”, with more photos than words.
we had the opportunity to see four slideshows where Susan Smith (National Geographic) showed “vintage” images and more recent work from Nat Geo. we saw the Ibiza soap suds party from DAH (“there were a lot of things going on… at least it was higienic”, and it was the first moment of laugh in the room…), Yuri Kozyrev (Noor) with Chechenia and Beslan school, Afghanistan and Iraq, Noel Quidu (Gamma) with Haiti and Liberia, and Philip Blenkinsop (Noor) – an UFO, in Jean-François Leroy definition – with Hmong veterans in Laos and a selection of his own (hardcore/daily life) “asian theater”.
they were introduced by JF Leroy, “photojournalists are my eyes to see the world”.
sadly, there wasn’t much talk – what would you asked after seeing such powerful images/stories? PB asked Yuri “how many underwear sets do you pack for a story like this?” in the second moment of laugh.
A few quotes from…
JF Leroy, “never, never believe in a magazine when they say they don’t have money to send a photojournalist somewhere in the world (cause they have money to pay for photos of tv/movie stars)”
PB, why he doesn’t have a book about the Laos secret war “i don’t want to make a book to glorify an obituary” and why photojournalists must be persistent, “because maybe one day you’ll have a break… or maybe you don’t”
Noel Quidu, “it’s not about money or celebrity, this job isn’t easy, it’s hard work”
that’s all folks. it was great to be with you all…
um forte abraço para todos,
Carlos Filipe
PS. i chat a little with JF Leroy and, with regard to the two photos side-by-side (see comment, today 09:24 AM), he said that he was also at the WPP jury that choosed that photo and he doesn’t find similarities. he said it’s another subject (birth and death)… it’s another place… it’s another story…
1)JF Leroy, “never, never believe in a magazine when they say they don’t have money to send a photojournalist somewhere in the world (cause they have money to pay for photos
2)PB, why he doesn’t have a book about the Laos secret war “i don’t want to make a book to glorify an obituary”
VERY INTERESTING … CARLOS FILIPE…
thank you
MARCIN NOTICED…:
“…Panos
you sleep with your laptop? Where is your girlfriend? :)..”
Marcin,
i noticed that you noticed….
All of my life… all of my relationships were always envy at my
passion for photography… or if i reverse it…
I’m responsible for neglecting and ruining every relationship so far…
in my life… promises i cannot keep….
forgotten randez vous,
i was a hypocrit… i was lazy and i was blaming “art” or
“photography”… for that…
but how can you tell a girlfriend… that sometimes i prefer to travel alone, or be alone, or shoot alone,
or smoke a joint before i go hung in the streets….
how can i explain that i am “obliged” to drink when i shoot
at the filthy bars and pubs down in venice beach…
How can you convince a girl… that sometimes you cant make it home on time or , at all…….???????????
How can you explain that the strippers and the transvestites…
are not really “her” competition???
David , rejected 25 prostitutes in a row the other night…
same here…
ahhhh, im not lucky in love but, what’s worst… i’m not good in
gambling either… god damn it!!!!
PANOS…ALL
damn!!
what you just wrote could be a “key” for a whole new post…who among us has not had some version of what you said be a part of what they DO????
too bad Bob Black is not here (gone for few days) to comment on this one, since he has a very close relationship with Marina and Dima…but, just a couple of hours ago he wrote me a private email from the airport…he was traveling alone, which he said he had not done in three years…feeling the pain…
i have tried very hard not to have let the “work” interfere with my personal life…took my ex wife Sue and my sons, Bryan and Erin, with me everywhere etc etc etc…but, i am divorced!! and my relationships after marriage have so far remained “girlfriends” and i have faced exactly the same questions you ask yourself….
ok, it is saturday night….and now i must go shoot…and now i will face the very things of which you speak….
hmmmmm, is there an answer???
hugs, david
p.s. i am more interested in the answer from a woman here on this forum….i KNOW what the guys think!!
… just come back from the “Festival Internazionale della Fotografia of Rome” party. Too drunk to answer such a easy but complex question… tommorrow I promise. I’ve also been in an exhilarating and enthusiastic Martin Parr lecture.
Tomorrow if I have enought time I’ll also share some shot taken at the lecture, before going out again to prepare my exhibition of monday (by the way if anyone of you is in Rome I’ll wait for you for the opening monday at 18:00 :
http://www.fotografiafestival.it/circuito_detail.asp?id=181 )
p.s. i am more interested in the answer from a woman here on this forum….i KNOW what the guys think!!
Posted by: david alan harvey | April 05, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Yes, a woman please…. an opinion…
You see ,
the guy next door… is so perfect… always has time for the family,
always plays with the kids… two cars and a boat…
even has enough time to do the lawn and do the necessary sunday appearance at the local church…
vever missed a credit payment… and already bought tickets for the family vacations… 3 summers from now…
and i,
the drunk and the stoner,
I spend all of my time in my weird little world she says…
You losing your relationship she says…
you choose ideas over real people, she says…
you are selfish… she says…
you dont care about DAH or anybody else in the forum… she says
You do all this for your personal recognition and attention, she says…
You neglect me , she says…
we dont go out like we used to ,she says…
you talk to the blog more than you talk to me , she says…
you sleep with the camera…or passing out on the laptop…
reading BobB’s , Herve’s and Akaky’s , endless comments but never listen to me … she says..
David, thank you for your opinion expressed above…
i just want to see if what im going through is so “unique”…?
or …
IS eventually PHOTOGRAPHY MUSIC OR ARTs in general , a “field” that attracts , “unstable, selfish, self absorbed, drunks- drug addicts, egomaniac, attention freaks, …
maybe my neighbors role model life is ” right”!!!!!!
Think of Picasso’s( or Kurt Cobain’s ) love and personal life… A MESS…
but on the other side think of
SALVADOR DALI and GALA…
but then again think of all that mess between
FRIDA and DIEGO RIVERA… mess, mess, mess…
I dont know… I’m lost in this one……
CHARLES…
I’M NOT GONNA BE SURPRISED IF YOU TELL ME THAT YOU DIRECTED THE ABOVE VIDEO… or at least, being very close…
peace
PANOS WROTE:
David rejected 25 prostitutes in a row the other night…
same here…
*+*+*
Panos, you’re lucky I had JUST swallowed the water I was drinking when I read that… THAT made me laugh so hard.
A woman’s perspective. I think about this every day. When consumed in a project, whether it be designing a book or editing my pictures, I CANNOT see beyond it. I go into hyper-focus-mode… food + sleep, distant memories. Difficult to be around people when I’m in this mode… can’t hold a conversation… intuition on overdrive. I’m tapping into a space deep inside. Either I’m in this creative cave or outside it… challenging for me to quickly toggle between both worlds. Will this artistic drive always supersede…?
The thought of having a spouse and children scares the bejeebers out of me… I’m concerned I would (using Panos’ word, though it’s really my own!) NEGLECT them… concerned that the compromises will pull me out of my creative zone… that I’ll lose my ability to see.
I would love to talk to a WOMAN who has traveled for assignments with her family in tow. Could you recommend any, David? A week ago, Allard told us that his family enhanced these very experiences. You’ve repeatedly shared this as well. But you guys had the wife… !
Eating cappuccino ice cream while running to watch a performance of La La La Human Steps…
ok, tomorrow I will not have enough time, I already know it.
The answer for me is very simple: I never have the time… I can’t mantein myself only with the photographic work, so I’m doing a full time job as an employee (to pay debit, photographic bill and photographic travel, camera and lenses I always broke..).
So I have no more time to start a serious relation, I can hardly manage with all my friends (they are my family), I use my spare time (and also the busy time very often)
with them and I try to involve them or “the supposed past relation” in my life that since 2003 is totally dedicated to photography.
I travel with them, bring them wherever I can and of course I always try find the time, energy and attention to dedicate to them.
About a relationship for a girl it’s, may be, a little bit more difficult.
You have to find the time. And loose concentration. And have stress.
Guys usually don’t like to be bring around following their girlfriends.
Friends somethimes do.
I’m not victimizing. It’s realism.
I’m totally confident about my choice, always happy about it and I enjoy a lot.
And If it wasn’t the photography may be it was Music or writing (not in english, don’t worry)
I’ll go on. May be tomorrow I’ll change idea, it’s so human. But I think I won’t until I enjoy so much.
It’s my life, I’ve chosen I try to live it at the best(anyway in an enthusiastic way) also if this means that i’m “unstable, selfish, self absorbed, drunks- drug addicts, egomaniac” (don’t think so, I’m a kind, unselfish, stable… ok stable it’s not the right description ;) ).
And I have no regrets.
Love and Buonanotte
Anna I’ve seen La La La Human Steps performance in november. I really liked it but my friend didn’t. I would like to have your opinion when you come back.
PROTECT ME FROM WHAT I WANT..
PROTEGE MOI !…
ANNA…LAURA
there are three women photographers i know who have routinely taken their children with them on assignments…Annie Griffiths Belt, Sisse Brimburg, and Karen Kasmauski..of course, there is Sally Mann who never left home and made her children primary subjects…but the list of women i know who either did not get married, or have children, in order to allow their photographic careers to move forward is a much much longer list…
where did you read that Allard took his family along with him?? i never knew that to be the case with him..quite the contrary…i know his personal life pretty well..
however difficult men think they have it in this biz, the women have it 10 times tougher…i am talking about the photo career women…not the girlfriends or wives of photographers who may be in another profession..but i do not think they have it easy either…just because Panos and i are “crying in our beer” does not mean that life on the other side of this whole equation is a piece of cake..it is just flat out hard as nails all way around, and i do not think any of us (men) are, for even one nanosecond, “blaming” the woman in our lives…we blame ourselves…we can see it…we get it…relationships are hard work for doctors and lawyers and truck drivers and accountants too, but anyone in the so called “creative arts” is a real “project” for sure…
i totally give my ex-wife all of the credit for making the family travel “happen” when i was on assignment, at least when the boys were very young…i thrived with everybody there, but she got ‘em “there”!!
over the years, i have always taken the women with whom i was having a serious relationship(3) with me on my assignments whenever they could go…2 were designers and could relate totally to what i do and the other a photographer herself….perfect…nevertheless, some of the things Panos mentioned, (not the drugs and alcohol), still got in the way from time to time..
peace, david
POUR TOI, PANOS:
ET POUR ANNA, LAURA, ALL OF US, A LITTLE “EDITHING”:
HERVE,
thank you! I was laughing, perfect video, just wake up. This is the italian answer for one, I’m sorry you can’t understand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2krf_N-IM.
DAVID,
thank you, agree, it’s not a cliche, I know women from both the “list”. The one with serious and “successful” family are definitely less and also with small children the give up, at least for a few.
(except for advertising, wedding of course but I think we are talking of something different)
And the one that go on usually have “some economic security”.
… but this is another topic too…
Ciao!
The link was with one stop more..
David;
Thanks for the lengthy reply to my post, & sorry for taking so long to reply… Have been away shooting a “Free Tibet” protest.. Not a paid job, but it’s a good cause. The Free Tibet movement can use the pics for free.. One of those “for the soul” jobs..
I get what you mean about Towells’ book, you can’t be much more “into” a subject than your own family…
I think in some ways it validates the choice many of us have taken. To not work as a newspaper staffer, & also lose that financial security, to freelance and shoot the subjects we’re interested in. It’s surely a delicate balance though!!
Do you think that those who specialise produce consistantly better work??
Cheers
Ok… I seee… we are going to the personal open sea….
David this is good one… I think you should write a whole new post about “relationship” in photographer’s life.
I have no idea who are reading what we are writing here… should we uncover our selfs?
ok… I will wait for a new post… and then I will write obout my “relationship” in my photography life…
ok?
ok…
Hey Panos… it looks like I’m going to be in LA later this month… are you up for a mai-tai at the tiki ti? Anyone else?…
ROSS….ALL
i think there is a bit of confusion, a semantic confusion perhaps, about the words “specializing” and being “committed”…there is a difference i think…”specializing” by being a sports photog, for example, is different than someone who takes on certain kinds of stories or essays and with a particular “style” or creates a particular mood…
certainly , the pro photogs i have known over the years who became a “jack of all trades”, “versatile” etc etc earned a good living in photography..perhaps even very popular at the time with their editors…they got the job done..hence more jobs….
however, i cannot think of one of them in this “category” who also became respected beyond the “good job joe” pat on the back…
ALL of the photographers who get mentioned here on this forum and seem to be “admired” most by readers here (and you all brought it up), tend to be “professional renegades” to one degree or another…not as “utilitarian” for editors all the time, but “brilliant” in their life work and in their “contribution”…
this is all very very subjective stuff my friend…but if you start looking at it as i allude, i believe you will see what i mean…surely, it is true in all of the arts…
certainly this creates THE DILEMMA…how to put your kids through college and yet retain a modicum of respect and fulfill your dreams…
i think what most photogs must do, have to do, is to earn their living in the best possible way..shoot weddings, passport photos, or whatever to pay the rent….BUT, in your “spare time” (and start making spare time THE TIME) photograph only what you deem to be important…of course, get the best pro assignments and work you can get…yes, yes…you would be crazy not to…
nevertheless, always know that ANY paid job is not ever the same as your personal project..some paid jobs are better than others and can be a RESOURCE for gathering some visual “nuggets”, but working on your own will yield the real YOU….
now all of this is assuming that you do have something “on your mind” and have “something to say”…
this cannot be taken for granted as i see with my students all the time…some totally “panic” when given the freedom to do “what they want”…this has to be faced first….
KNOWING WHAT YOU WANT is just as hard, or harder, to figure out than just going out and doing “a good job” for someone else…this is the REAL CHALLENGE….YOU (WE) are the enemy!!!
sorry, i think i “over answered” your question!!! or, did i even answer your question???
peace, david
MARCIN…
yes, i agree…i was thinking the same thing..
Hi David,
Not sure if you recall the question I asked you about Peter Turnley and his picture essys that have been published in the Harper magazine. Not sure if you had the chance to look at one of them. Maybe you could say few words about the photographer and these essays and how they are perceived by other photographers.
Thanks
Arie
Oh my… Oh my goddnes!
What was happen here??
all day without comment???
In DAH blog???
this is something new!!
This is…. this is….
amazing…
everybody shooting!!!!
peace (for shooters)
David,
Tried again on that email …
tom the younger
Marcin, exact same time on last posts! … Hmmm, I think perhaps it’s time David came out of the closet on his new project with a new post … he’s been teasing for how long now? Of course it won’t be ready until he’s ready, ’til all the planets are in alignment … but I am as tortured as you! :))
PANOS,
This is for your girl; I’m sure she agrees with everything Billie has to say, so you best take care you hang on to her ;-)
ARIE….
i have been very pleased with what i have seen Peter Turnley do with his Harper’s commission…most importantly, he created it…prior to his essays, Harper’s really did not do much with pictures… i never cared about this, because i always loved the magazine for its words..one of my favorite magazines…in any case, Peter launched himself into new territory with this commission…
the Turnley twins, David and Peter, are a resourceful duo…charming and pleasantly aggressive “deal cutters”, they have managed to pull of some really interesting projects…David made a truly nice b&w film in Cuba, “Tropicale”…he never got it distributed , which was too too bad…
both David and Peter are friends of mine and they are always good company for sure…just nice guys…honestly, photographically, they get mixed reviews among their more “aesthetic oriented” peers.. but i think Peter has pushed himself very far with his Harper’s essays…his best work by far…
cheers, david
MARCIN AND YOUNG TOM..
i am not trying to be mysterious…there is one part of this that needs to be worked out..the whole thing could collapse…like everything…nothing happens until it happens…not one single project in my whole life ever ever ever, just went “smooth” and “clean” …do you know what i mean??
david
DAVID,
I understand and am sympathetic to the situation you and Panos describe. It’s a whole different can of worms than the picture Laura and I paint. Different, albeit challenging just the same. My heart goes out to you guys.
And, thank you… I totally appreciate the names you shared.
To clear Allard’s record, his words (you’d typed) were simply, “i have had a great support from my wives and kids…they have given me much more than i have ever given back to them.” My memory extrapolated this sentiment to include travel!!
LAURA,
I saw La La La Human Steps at an outdoor theater in Barcelona in 1988! It was incredible… I was concerned that last night’s performance would not live up to this memory. That said, last night was amazing.
There was one scene (for lack of a better word) that I interpreted as insects flickering around a lightbulb. The live music stopped… the dancers danced to a recording full of static… hard cold light was projected from the back of the room, creating shadows that climbed the angle from floor to wall. I could have stared at that all day. In another scene, there was a spiderweb-like projection on the floor… two couples danced… their movements appeared to mirror one another, though at times their symmetry was broken. If I’d walked in during this scene, I would have thought that there was a mirror on stage… and only one couple dancing. Sound familiar? I’m wondering if we saw the same performance.
p.s. I lived on the hill right above Trastevere for several months in 2005. I miss being there so much!!!
Lots of love,
Anna
David;
I think I read somewhere that one of the Nat Geo editors said that if they gave every type of story to Allard that they would lose their hair overnight!! He said they “cherry picked” assignments especially for him.
I’m trying to spend as much time as possible on personal work. For example; the Timor trip is probably the worst financial decision I can make at the moment, but I feel that I must do it. I’m trying to use my home work to piggy back my own projects, hopefully it’ll work out…
One of the seminal moments that made me decide to freelance and pursue more documentary type work was talking to a photographer from our local daily paper. He said he envied me because i can spend time on stories.
Even spending a couple of days on a story is better than he could do. He said he often had only 30 minutes to shoot a story before going off to the next job. He hated that he often had to shoot up to 5 or 6 stories a day.
I decided that I wouldn’t go the newspaper route (& the reliable paycheck) so I could work on stories that interest me. Sure, they aren’t for Time or Nat Geo (have done some for NZ Geo..) but I am grateful that nearly every magazine story focusses on somebody doing good work in the community. Especially in the sustainability fields…
What is frustrating though is that you can’t really “let yourself rip” (except for NZ Geo) when it comes to photographic style. That’s where the long term projects come in, this is where I can better fulful the artistic intent.
Hopefully this balances the commercial versus personal work dillema. I did shoot a wedding once and absolutely hated it!!!!
And David; don’t ever worry about “over answering” a question, all food for thought is good!!!
David made a truly nice b&w film in Cuba, “Tropicale”
——
Definitely makes us want to see more:
I like the Turnley bros, when you mentionned sitting longer at a CAFE table in paris, shooting with one Hand, David, I thought of Peter’s Les Parisiens. Half the book is shot in CAFES, with a wonderful shot of Boubat and maybe, his brother David and kid, I am not sure, across one table.
We were talking of Peace and War P., well, “In Times of Peace and War” by the duo has been available at Amazon.com USA for a peanut, literally. I recommend it wholeheartedly, if you don’t know already:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0789202999/ref=sr_1_olp_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207526362&sr=8-6
Anna, don’t know if you’ll read this but “Yes!”, it was the same performance and for me it was the first time of La La La..so you can imagine
Trastevere is the right place where to be. Rome’ll wait for you to come back.
Sam,
Concerning contact sheets, there is a series of sorth fims produced by the french TV channel Arte, which you might find useful :
it’s called “Contacts” and is in French/English.
I can tell you more if ou want.
David,
never heard of the magnum exhibit on contact sheets.
could you tell me more ?
Are those contact sheets available online (ie magnum website) ?
Now, I found it very interesting the way you describe the way you work in the post about taking pictures in cafés… so different from what I have read from D. Hurn.
Concerning the importance of subjetct matter,
I think it was Robert Adams who said that the history of photography is the history of subject matters… i really found that interesting
what a great discussion this was !!!
pY.
David, you don’t know me. Not yet anyway. But I’m going to be in your “Photographic Essay” workshop in Charlottesville. Yesterday (Wednesday) I started reading this blog and found myself intrigued. What a fascinating group of friends/readers and what marvelously free-ranging discussions you have.
Regarding your question about subject matter, I’d like to share a gallery of photos I just posted on PBase.com. It probably gives my perspective better than any words I could write here. The URL is
http://www.pbase.com/windchimewalker/scooter
Patricia in Detroit
David, Sam Harris, pierre yves…
there’s a exhibition of contact sheets by the photographers of Contact Press Images. you can read about and see the images from “Contact/s: The Art of Photojournalism” at http://www.contactpressimages.com/exhibitions/contact/exhibitions.html
acccording to the site the exhibition was in Pingyao (China, 2006), Perpignan (France, 2006), Dhaka (Bangladesh, 2006) and Sydney (Australia, 2007).
um forte abraço para todos,
Carlos Filipe
update to “Contact/s: The Art of Photojournalism”…
you can follow the previous link for overall information concerning the exhibition, but you should better look at http://www.contactpressimages.com/artop/index.html
to see photos and contact sheets in detail.
Carlos Filipe
I should be editing some shots from today, but it has been weeks since I have been able to spend a little bit of time here…simply, there is no other place that offers what can be found here. I think I will pour a glass of red wine and play lurker’s catchup….
thanks carlos for the link
much appreciated !
I see this thread is long over but after reading all the responses I still wanted to comment for some reason.
You asked the question; “do you think “great photographers” choose inherently “great subjects”??”
It is the “great photographers” part that I found missing in the discussion. You mention, Salgado, Adams, Nachtwey, Leibovitz, etc.. From my work photographing artists and some “great photographers” They were the same artists prior to what I call “the break”, as they are after. “The break” is recognition by the “right” people and all of a sudden they are “great photographers”
Most of the successful artists and photographers I’ve talked to about how they got successful can point to one instance where it all came together – “the break”
I find the break needs a confluence of events. The artist being ready is perhaps the most important element. The “right” people seeing and advancing the artists work, and the public being receptive to the work. This results in the artist going from unknown to known.
Most great photographers were picking great subjects prior to becoming known. But, there are a million great photographers out there shooting great subjects and doing great work. We will just never hear about them because they never got “The break”.
I’m not saying the “great artists” aren’t good at what they do. Just that they were in the right place in their life to see, pursue, and grab onto opportunity when it came. I have talked to artists who saw “the break” coming and decided to pass. The one had a show at a MAJOR NY gallery. The gallery wanted her to spend more time in NY, do some interviews, take time to do the business side of art. She had 2 small kids at the time and didn’t want to. She does alright now but, when her break came she said no.
So, I guess I would say, yes great photographers pick great subjects. But the photographers we think of as “great” should probably be thought of as “known”. And, the “known” photographers don’t always pick the best subjects. A “known” photographer will get more attention for photographing “interesting” subjects than a great unknown photographer who has picked a GREAT subject.
Might not be fair but fame and marketing make a difference.
My favorite example of the fame versus talent making a difference.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html