Comments on: brent foster – hell hole https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/ burn is an online feature for emerging photographers worldwide. burn is curated by magnum photographer david alan harvey. Wed, 07 Sep 2016 08:29:39 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.2.4 By: Shreya https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-40040 Fri, 22 May 2009 10:35:28 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-40040 its great that you are putting light on an issue which is present in india for so long…
yet the images dont show me somehting i havent already seen… being an indian that is…
I itch for something more…
good luck!

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By: Foster on Burn « Through the Eyes of a Pike https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39871 Thu, 21 May 2009 21:27:40 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39871 […] Brent Foster, (and fellow Loyalist College alumni), currently based in Delhi, India is featured on Burn magazine,(burn is an online magazine that is curated by magnum photographer david alan […]

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By: Sean https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39419 Tue, 19 May 2009 00:45:23 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39419 Apologies Brent, I thought that you had made the final ten with this work…. who knows. Maybe you have. Regardless of grants and money and where you find it, I’m sure your work on this project will widen and deepen.

Keep going!

Regards.

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By: Brett Gundlock https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39344 Mon, 18 May 2009 13:51:16 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39344 Great work Brent.

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By: david bowen https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39241 Sun, 17 May 2009 07:36:09 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39241 Australia making efforts to curb web freedom is a serious issue – if anti porn laws bleed into the arts world the subjective perception of some about what ´porn´ is could be restrictive..

regardless, the role of an editor is to deem the suitability and quality of content to my mind – far from being a negative ´censor´ which i understand some on the web may view them as, to me they hold the positive position of quality control..

what i find is that the web is astonishingly free.. while some websites might not be, as a whole it is a great deal freer than the gallery spaces and arts institutes which commonly enter the news for banning this or that photograph..

david AH could just take submissions and pick the ones he likes most and bang them up – as magazines take pitches for stories or work on spec, however what he´s doing is more – it´s a positive.
in attempting to bring good dialogue the work being shown has been varied and interesting..

for those worried about ´the edit´ and who´s edit we are actually seeing – it is the photographers.. always..

now – david has been helping me out with the last mile of the marathon project i´ve been on.. helping me to THINK about the work as the final choices are made.. lending his opinions and illustrating them by showing me the photographs of mine he appreciates.

the edit will always be mine though.. is mine.. from the 50 or 60 000 negs shot over 10 years i have got it down to 7 or 800 now.. david has seen 250.. so – what he has seen is in the first place very tightly edited..
so if i were to present ONLY the photographs david has chosen, who´s edit would that be?
for the most part – mine i believe…
i´m certain that in the last moments before publishing i will have greatest influence over the edit because i already have that..
sequencing and THINKING about 10 years worth of work.. narrowing down to 100-150 photos.. it needs a mirror for thoughts.. and david is kindly helping with that while in addition choosing stories..
it´s a great help.

i think it is tremendously sad when there is crit of the editing on burn.. because there is only positive and helpful stuff going on – nothing restrictive and everything encouraging.. and i´m sure people he has helped before will agree – we´re the ones doing the work.. having done the work..

d

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By: Imants https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39144 Sat, 16 May 2009 14:54:01 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39144 No it is quite specific in what you stated . “So I don’t think an accusation of censorship is at all relevant.” ……. as for the rest of your post it shows a surprising naivity

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By: Jim Powers https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39143 Sat, 16 May 2009 14:34:30 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39143 Actually, Imants, my comment was more general than specific. My reference to this venue specifically was only that. Nobody on any site on the web has an obligation to publish anything. But any photographer is free to publish his own work without restraint (unless the subject matter is illegal). Sign up for a free web site and put your photos there.

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By: Imants https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39139 Sat, 16 May 2009 14:25:33 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39139 Jim I was not singling out anything on this site, all I stated is that editing is perceived as censorship by many who use the net……nor did I make any accusation of censorship here so don’t twist stuff around to suit your high horse morality

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By: Imants https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39137 Sat, 16 May 2009 14:15:20 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39137 David I am not concerned with censorship/editing issue on a site of this nature but there are a heap places out there on the wonderful world of the www where site owners or regular posters demand codes of conduct, ethics etc that are restrictive and clearly violate one’s freedom of expression etc.Of course one can go elsewhere and not post on a site………then again we have a govt in Australia saying that they would like to “edit” what we can access on the net

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By: Jim Powers https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39136 Sat, 16 May 2009 14:08:38 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39136 Because a large component of this website is teaching, editing clearly has a big place here. You don’t need burn to put up a photo gallery. A single click in Lightroom will do that. So I don’t think an accusation of censorship is at all relevant.

Clearly, there will be situations where a decision is made not to run a photo or essay at all. But editorial discretion is hardly censorship. If your photography isn’t child porn or some other clearly illegal activity, nobody is going to stop you from publishing it yourself.

It’s not like the days before the web, there are no financial obstacles to publishing on the web. And a specific venue is under no obligation to publish your work.

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By: gina martin https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39135 Sat, 16 May 2009 13:53:41 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39135 BRENT – i personally thought this essay is beautiful. the mystery, the framing, the B/W, the subject…. i also appreciated the nice tight edit… great work – i look forward to seeing more of your work.

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By: david alan harvey https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39133 Sat, 16 May 2009 13:47:41 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39133 IMANTS…

we are working on a story with you right now..do you feel censored in any way??? isn’t your artists statement , your artists statement?? is your essay not going to be run as per your wishes??? my only role with you , and with many others, is that i like it…feel it worth publishing…i have selected it…

other photographers and artists may require more help or guidance…you do not…

there is a time to mentor/edit, there is a time to just let it roll…

cheers, david

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By: Imants https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39131 Sat, 16 May 2009 13:34:04 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39131 ……. editors are too easily perceived as censors on the net

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By: david alan harvey https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39130 Sat, 16 May 2009 13:26:09 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39130 JOHAN…HERVE

the role of editor varies from story to story….some need editing, some do not…and i think one of the problems with the net so far is that there is not much editing of any kind going on…photo sharing is what is happening, and hence the frustration…

in my role here, i think for sure i want the photographer to sign off on what is published…but, the photographer also has an obligation to provide the editor with all pertinent information so the editor can decide on the level of integrity…the aesthetics and the sequencing are another issue….

however, the audience must believe in the editor , otherwise there is no point in coming to any site in the first place…if nobody wants an editor, then they can just go out and find any picture they want anytime, anywhere…hopefully , we will soonest be publishing original photography done for BURN exclusively…this will bring on a whole new role of editing…i.e. assigning….

Johan….my audience, the photographers i mentor, are generally in the 18-35 age group…i would say this is the younger generation…i can tell you they are absolutely craving having an editor…..total freedom to do what you want is what we all say we desire…but, at some point everyone seeks guidance….an actor is nothing without a director, and a director is nothing without an actor….etc etc

cheers , david

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By: Johan Jaansen https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39110 Sat, 16 May 2009 02:42:28 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39110 Thanks for that informed response Herve. What has become obviously apparent is the debate over the degree of involvement the editor should play in the finished product. This is natural given that the Burn audience is derived from different backgrounds. Some may argue that the editor should use his or her experience and position to shape the final product in a way that delivers the whole package to the audience. Consequently the audience will then have access to the whole story via links. However, others may argue that this is not the editor’s job at all, and the photographer should have the final say – it is their editorial decision. And if the viewer wants to learn more about the essay, well google is just a click away.

What I think is important to mention also, is that being published on the net is still in hindsight a recent phenomenon. This is why the Burn audience is still split over editorial ‘say’. Printed publications, either magazines, books, newspapers have of course a longer history, so the role of the editor is in that sense more grounded or established. A new concept like publication on the net is still undergoing a massive transformation. So, a person with a background mainly reading printed publication, may come to a net publication with the mindset that the editor should have included everything on the page for readers to see. Because, it maybe a lot less convenient to do a follow up investigation of an author via the traditional means of libraries etc. When I say convenient, I don’t mean better, just faster. Libraries can reveal back publications, old editions that never were downloaded onto the net. However, contemporary photographers may have their newer work only accessible on the net, via links.

Alternatively, the newer generation may argue that everything is all on the net anyway, so why should the editor include extraneous information that the viewer can find easily anyway. Of course, this demarcation is not as divided as I have loosely portrayed, but I still think that ones background may effect their opinion on editorial control. In another sense, that is what makes Burn and internet publication so interesting to begin with; this evolution of the roles of artists and editors in a different media setting – the internet.

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By: Herve https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39106 Sat, 16 May 2009 01:38:49 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39106 Thanks for the input, Johan. That’s what I don’t get. If the photographer comes with ready choices, then what has been the role of the editor? I am really at a loss here, sincerely.

Let see if I can play BURN editor here. A P. (or David/Bob/Anton) sends me an essay. I join the P, on what is the essay for, or presented as. the P is going to tell me if it is just a single work, relying on his photos and a text, or tell me is part of a bigger project, multimedia project. Then I may ask to see it, remind him that multi-media is quite on the mind of David, and that a word from him about it and a link to it, if he wishes so, might really show the scope of his involvement in the subject. Still his (her) choices, he may after all only showcase his photo essay, but we talked a bit.

That’s all it’s about, talking about it.

these sort of questions should be directed at the photographer
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My “big question” was as much to Brent, than anyone else. But the P may not be available as comments and questions come forward. Let’s get a few more guys to talk with the Ps beforehand, it’s a good experience for everyone involved.

I just read Charles post. Here again, I presume wrong maybe, I wish he had the chance to see the trailer.

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By: Charles Peterson https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39104 Sat, 16 May 2009 00:45:37 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39104 Can’t say I was blown away by these but may be partially due to the fact that I can’t see them very well. I too am on a very good calibrated monitor and they all looked very gray and dim. Shadows need opening up. They also seemed very distant from the subjects too – wish there was a bit more intimacy and “back story.” Where do they live, shop, play, etc?

Still a great subject though and takes balls to shoot in places like this no matter what. I’ve driven through coal towns in the North of Vietnam and they are surreal landscapes to say the least. Literally black everywhere. Of course I wanted to stop but my wife was appalled and depressed by it as well as my driver and guide (we’d already visited a coal harvesting production earlier). Crazy world…..

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By: Johan Jaansen https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39102 Sat, 16 May 2009 00:12:11 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39102 Herve, your statement that ‘we must really think through the editing patterns on Burn’. Well, with regards to whether a link with a trailer is put up with the essay – well isn’t that the photographer’s artistic choice? These ruminations about what the editors should have been included in the essay, ultimately just lead to speculation. I think these sort of questions should be directed at the photographer, not the editors.

I don’t see how a small operation like Burn can be implied to be at blame for everything that the photographer did or didn’t do. Judging by DAH statement in the EPF column, it is obvious that he is a very busy man and perhaphs deosn’t have the time to second guess the photographer’s artistic choices; or lack of them. Please remember that Burn is a small organisation that doesn’t have the manpower of a large publishing company. But, that is the inherent beauty of Burn, a small but inspirational publisher.

Thanks,
Johan

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By: Herve https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39099 Fri, 15 May 2009 23:42:07 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39099 Sacre Bob!!!!

very simply: no. No on all counts.

The M.O. was very simply about us, who get to see the entry as readers, then commenters. Really, here, if you read me clearly, it was obvious it was said of no one in particular.

Yes, it’s quite healthy and fine to question how we get about, doing things on BURN. I understand perfectly that until now, the photographer made all the choices. So I said maybe we can be more involved (Didn’t you yourself tell us you were in constant conversation over the course of a full day (or more?) with Marc Davidson? I mean, here it is, if that is not involvement?).

And finally yes, actually no: people, that’s me too, do not always think of digging beyond the entry itself. The use of the internet is just too informal to expect people to be on, where they should be on. I did open Brent’s website, never saw the link to the trailer, and I actually remember thinking MumbayFC meant Football club! So, a little propping and coaxing can’t hurt.

And again, I am ready to help, said so before.

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By: bob black https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/brent-foster-hell-hole/#comment-39098 Fri, 15 May 2009 22:59:52 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=2230#comment-39098 Herve:

you said “big question as to why the link to the trailer was not put with the essay. Yes, we must really think thru the editing patterns on BURN, no doubt about it”….

Burn is a doorway….an entrance…Burn is a magazine intended to showcase the variety of work being done by photographers. Burn publishes what work is submitted. Brent presented the essay AS HE WANTED, period, full stop. On top of essays, Burn provides links to the photographers webpages, archives or any other link they wish to provide. The Multimedia piece is available for ALL TO SEE if THEY LOOK AT BRENT’S WEBPAGE….

It is NOT Burn’s responsibility to do all the work for readers…..BURN WOULD PUBLISH THE MULTIMEDIA PIECE (as Burn has done in the past, as Burn will do in the future) if that was what was desired….

moreover, why cant the readership, in this case YOU, do the work too…as soon as i looked at the essay, wrote my comment, I went to both the archive and the webpage and looked at all….

I find this continual ‘criticism’ of what gets shown here as not only lazy but ridiculous. David GIVES total freedom to the photographer, within the technical constraints…

soon you’ll see a MM piece that will also push boundaries….

there is NO BURN MO….

i wish you would understand that…

it’s funny, the criticism of the Brent piece (by many above) may have been answered had more people taken the time to do their own work…look at the web page…which would eventually lead to Flying Bombay Club too….

the decision NOT to put a link was the photographers and NOT david or antons…

good grief…

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