Beating by Michael Francis McElroy
Ft Lauderdale, Florida .This unidentified man was attacked and beaten by 2 youths in broad daylight. Teen violence is a serious and rapidly growing problem in America. From the horrible incident at Columbine, Colorado, to the everyday incidents of youth violence, it is apparent that the problem is growing not shrinking. There are, according to most studies, several possible contributing factors which lead young people to violent behavior. One problem facing children growing up in America is today’s media bombardment. Children growing up in today’s media are learning all the wrong things at all the wrong times.
(editors note: this is a straight un-posed photograph of an actual event as so described -david alan harvey)
http://www.mmcelroy.com/index2.php
Nevermind I get it, your asking for our thoughts on that… Sorry…
ROSS…
Michael just stood there and took a straight on picture of what was happening right in front of him….he did not create the event, nor change it…what else should he have done?? how should he have been “more responsible”? taken a less graphic picture of a man with blood all over him??? not taken a picture at all?? curious…..
DAH
I wasn’t suggesting that there was a better way to take the photo or even judging it for quality. I am suggesting that images like this (blood, death, pain, suffering etc.) are celebrated and awarded by many and I’m not sure to what end they do anything good or meaningful (although, I suppose you could call this forum educational). I think that is a sad statement for humanity. Our need for this stuff without understanding or reason is really messed up. I see Michael is a photojournalist, so I understand why he was compelled to get this shot, “great” it’s a good shot. Now what? I still think that photojournalism drives many photographers at all costs and celebrates content that steers us in the wrong direction… I am certainly not the authority on whats right and wrong good or bad. It is just my opinion that these kind of images, when shown should be shown with a purpose. Maybe this is the case here, that’s why I asked Michael what he is doing photographically around youth violence and this photo.
A photo is a photo………make of it as one does. This sure beats a photo of a easter bunny
Ive been on assignment all day, so have really had no time to look over the comments on my photograph! Ive been working on a project about the Economic and foreclosure crisis and spent the day with a 65yr old disabled man who is losing his home, hasn’t had electric since August, his wife has stage 4 brain cancer!!! His situation is disturbing! We live in a country were this is happening everyday! should his story not be told? I do agree that the photograph i took is disturbing! as it should be! the whole episode was disturbing! If you have seen my work? i am not a blood and guts photographer! but i believe in my instincts! which were to first call for help and try to do what little i could, then try and document the result of what i had witnessed! As for contest who knows! i have entered one contest in 10yrs (this year) in POY an image of Barack Obama in Miami ( i covered the election) so i’ve never really thought contest were all that important! As for newspapers they should run images like this! do these things happen? yes! and newspapers are supposed to inform us on whats happening in our world.. I’ve always believed in the saying “out of sight out of mind” and if we don’t see images that shock us! or make us angry! or make us think! i believe change doesn’t take place. It may be hard to look at but i bet it made us think! what! why! ect… I truly believe we need to see what is really going on in this world! good or bad… As far as comparisons to Christ! it never crossed my mind until other post had mentioned it.
in one word: “evidence”
the utility of still photography: “this is something that happened”
the art that is imagery: “this is captivating”
the benefit: “invocation of spirit, to dislodge an idle state”
Alternative: “happy stories that keep you in that comfort zone of ignorance”
logical conclusion: “wake the up or stay asleep”.
Hmmm, Ross I understand but to me journalism, in its best form, has never been about looking away although too often it has. Which direction here is “wrong.” Is it the telling itself that is wrong? I’m not sure people understand the degree to which good newsrooms face ethical dilemmas everyday, and the often tough debates that ensue. I would have run this photo when I had a newspaper, it puts a bloody face to an important community issue/problem, but I (almost) always stopped short of showing bodies. Of course, the question of whether to TAKE a photo or to RUN a photo are two separate issues entirely. I (almost) always took the photo because in the moment it is often nearly impossible to really know exactly what is going on. Photojournalism 101, yes?
Pete, that is interesting that times are changing. Of course, Bobby Kennedy’s assassination photo was of high enough “significance” to the country that it ran in many, but not all, U.S. papers so many years ago now. Some of my “best” photos were of rescues and unfortunately not all successful ones so some ran and some did not and in some cases I actually participated in the rescue because there were not enough hands on scene, for which I was chastised by another news outlet oddly enough on ethical grounds. I cannot imagine speaking to the mother of a drowned child if I ran the picture of her son in the firefighters arms no matter how good the photo was. That likely would not serve anyone, except perhaps the selfish needs of the publication. On the other hand, if it was war, it well might. If it was family members watching a death (s), it might to highlight the dangers of say, rip tides on a popular beach. And then the mayor might stop by and suggest the local paper tone it down a notch because, you know, tourism is king and you might ask if he has seen the movie Jaws to which he might pause and then say something very un-politician like. Every situation is at least a little different and many factors are weighed, even on deadline. Sorry Pete … rambled on, you of course deal with this everyday. But it is important for front liners like yourself to talk about this, and how decisions are made, because I think few people understand the tough decisions and true soul searching that goes on in the best publications every day.
YOUNG TOM…
well put…thanks
Hmm, all posted pretty much same sentiments at the same time. Michael, as well you should!
Young Tom, yes well put… I never said or insinuated to look away and Joe, I certainly never said only tell good stories. I simply said these kind of photos, as you basically said of newsrooms should be treated in a certain way and considered very seriously . Sensational photos for their own sake is not news and not every story needs to be seen or read about just because it happened. I may be wrong here but as for the youth violence story, this guy doesnt look like a high school kid to me, maybe early 20′s. Who knows at any rate, I am just curious if there is a reason for this photo and what it is other than jumping out of a car shooting an exciting moment you came across and getting a “bloody good picture”?
Michael, if the shot you submitted for the contest was the one of Obama with his finger up behind the shade. “nice moment”…
I would add that I believe poor perceptions of newspapers is due in large part to the media. That’s not as contradictory as it sounds if you break “media” down into respective genres. For instance, TV media, and most often local TV media, have focused more on serving the most base of human desires than on true community awareness and education. Or, to put it more bluntly and to quote what a multiple Pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter once noted to me his opinion that “they are just a bunch of whores.” Of course, newspapers themselves are much to blame by too often adopting a bunker mentality, or from just pure arrogance, isolating themselves from the public instead of truly engaging and educating readers on how they actually conduct their business, or how they could do it better. Or maybe simply because they cared too much about reporting actual news than they did about what they perceived as tooting their own horn. Either way, the great irony has always been that some of the worst organizations at public relations are newspapers themselves and this has led to great mistrust of intention. How far things have fallen in such a short time since all those college students went into journalism because of All the Presidents Men, when the greatest majority of people perceived the media as the fourth branch of the democracy.
Ross, good points for a good discussion :)) These are just the things we all should be talking and thinking about.
Young Tom you beat me to the punch… I was going to say well put, again…
Ross, it was that shot! Thanks. As far as the photograph of the person who was beaten it wasn’t a matter of jumping out of my car and getting a good picture! and it wasn’t exciting moment.. like i said in previous post! my first concern was helping the police get the people who did this senseless act! after on my way back to the scene i did take out my camera at make a photograph! i never submitted it to the newspaper! In this day and age we are bombarded with pictures of the rich and famous for doing nothing!!! our society is obsessed with Brittany?? that is disturbing to me!! Why? does this reflect on our society and whats really happening? If i was in a position to publish this photograph i would and as a result i probably wouldn’t have a job for long! There are alot of things happening in this world that we need to see and hear about but we dont because the media is afraid to offend its readers! i give us more credit and believe we want and need to see this!!!
I agree that there are many images that do not pass the breakfast test and are too gruesome to be published in the paper. Mainly because of the pubic outcry that would ensue.
But that being said I think there is a responsibility to tell the story. Some feel that running a photo like this or of a grieving parent at an accident, fire or funeral is sensationalizing and only done to sell newspapers or magazines. In the bean counters mind that may be so. But I think as a photojournalist it is important to look at it another way.
If a photo of a distraught mother at the scene of an accident gets the attention of one person who dives drunk and it prevents them from doing it again, then we have served a greater good. If a photo of a sad little boy at the scene of a fire that destroyed his home makes parents keep lighters out of reach of children who may play with them and burn down their home, then it serves a greater purpose.
I have had many letters to the editor and phone calls to the paper asking how could we run a certain photo. But I seriously have never had a person in a photo or a family member ever comment negatively.
DAH – I think it would be interesting to have James Nachtwey comment on this subject. As I said I have been in a lot of situations that are difficult to photograph. Many times questioning if I am doing the right thing. But I will never forget my reaction to watching one of the initial scenes in WAR PHOTOGRAPHER with James photographing a mother as they were bringing her dead son back to the village. AND HE WAS CLOSE!
Now covering a war situation may be a bit different than covering a gang beating…. or is it?
James talked about how the people in these horrible situations want their story to be told. They want the world to know what is happening to them.
Here it may be a little different. Or it may not. But I do think that the responsibility of the photojournalist is the same… to tell the story as truthfully and as best they can.
In answer to David’s question about contests vs newspaper responsibility, I will say that I NEVER shoot a photo thinking “DAMN THIS WILL WIN WORLD PRESS PHOTO! Actually I was never much into the contest scene until the last few years.
I think that contests have two purposes. One, it helps to get your name and work known. Two, on your resume it shows prospective employers or clients that you have a track record of consistently producing good work (at least according to your peers).
So other than advertising and making yourself feel good, they really have no purpose. They are all so subjective anyway. And truth be told, just the OPINION of a few judges.
Newspapers have a responsibility to tell the story as best they can and within the bounds of what the community will tolerate. But remember since you can’t please everyone all the time, no matter what you do you will piss off someone.
OK, I am not sure if all this made any sense. I do know I have not been as eloquent as Bob Black…. but damn I am ALMOST as long! (just kidding Bob)
“There are a lot of things happening in this world that we need to see and hear…” Yea but how much do we want to see, I am not sure being bombarded with these type of images everyday would enhance my life or even make it remotely pleasant. Sure one can search for them on the net to satisfy one’s needs if they are driven to to this need of exposure.
On another note I actually like the image for its aesthetic values, the colours contrast etc. It’s a good looking theatrical image
“But remember since you can’t please everyone all the time, no matter what you do you will piss off someone.”
:)))
Or … 50 percent of the people will be pissed off at you 50 percent of the time but that 50 percent is always changing!
exactly!
Powerful shot. My god. Crucifixion. Love the patterns of the bricks, the bit of graffiti. I must say that this photo’s power comes partly because it isn’t staged. I know there is a lot of debate on Burn between the ‘straight’ photojournalists and the ‘art’ photographers. Each have their power. This shot definitely has some documentary photography umph. wow.
Michael, your welcome, it was really a great shot…
As for the photos of the rich and famous, from a photojournalistic point of view I would make the same argument. I cant stand that stuff either… Maybe even more…
I think it’s great that you called the police and stopped the attack!!! However, you still haven’t answered my question. If it wasn’t exciting, which I find very hard to believe, What then was the purpose of getting the shot of the bloody guy upon returning to the scene? And, if this story of youth violence is so important to be told then why didn’t you submit it to a paper? And, why is it here submittted to BURN?
Again, I am just curious because of my thoughts on this…
After reading my arguments I can see I am treading on very thin ice. “Don’t shoot this and don’t shoot that the man say’s” is what may be interpreted about what I’m saying… It’s not. What I am saying is that for photojournalism purposes and informing people, very careful consideration should be used along with information and folllow up that continues to inform and help communities and the world for that matter. This is very difficult because it does go into opinions here and in newsrooms… However, no one ever said the choices we make are supposed to be easy and often they are made that way… Easily that is. “WOW” great image must be seen, print it… Why, what for is my question…
Why did you take that picture upon returning to the scene?
GREAT DISCUSSION ALL! :)))
as a former journalist, would love to weigh in, put it’s great to sit back and read for once :))…keep it going….
cheers
bob
This is one of the most powerful and sad pictures I have ever seen…It’s like a extrange and surreal image of a Christ in a cross made of bricks with his arms extended…exhausted and confused….horrible and graphically attractive in some way…difficult to take…probably more difficult to forget.
BOB R U Kidding??? I expected a novel over this one from you… Kidding, Kinda, LOL…
Ross :))
i would LOVE to write….BUT…it’s time to let others. You guys have a terrific discussion going and I have enjoyed, a lot, reading and following the discussion, all sides….
my role more now: get the work to Burn, keep the fires burning. You guys are keeping it stoked. It’s been great :)
cheers
running
bob
Ross, Sorry! I get lost reading all the comments! the reason i took the picture is pure and simple! i was there and im a photojournalist!
Well, I guess there’s not much I can to say to that??? Very graphic shot, great timing. It made me think, Thanks!
MICHAEL – congrats on a very nice image. i hate to say that you were lucky to get this shot – but you were. with only 5 frames – you nailed it. nice job. i too think this would win a contest.
ROSS…
i just cannot even begin to understand your question….or questions…
you mean to tell me you question why Michael even shot the picture?? you Ross would have been there with your camera and not taken this had you seen it???
i can understand that many photographers have no interest in any kind of news photography (i don’t), others would not want to intrude (i wouldn’t), and i can understand your concerns about how photographs are used or misused (i am)… but it seems to me that you would be eliminating the whole world of news photography period by asking the same question Jim Powers always asks which is “so then what?”…
i think we could all say “so then what?” to just about anything anyone ever photographed……
Ross, any way you look at it, this photograph has power…visually ..editorially….teen violence is for real…this is about as powerful and dramatic a photograph as i have seen for awhile as a representation of teen violence..
when this picture came in , i thought it was a stage shot in its perfection….
i wrote Michael and asked him if this was “for real”…i trusted him and ran it for exactly for what he said it was…. had this run in any newspaper, i am sure the readers would be buzzing just as much as we are here…
i am not saying that you or anyone must subscribe to the tenants of journalism…of course not…but assuming journalism does in fact have a place in our culture, then i submit this photograph is very damn good photojournalism and even , as Imants says, transcends into “theatrical art” or visual symbolism beyond its use in journalism….
it is far far far from a gratuitous picture of violence…..ever see the Luc Delahaye shot of the Dead Afghan Soldier??? if you do not know it, please know it….Michael’s photograph comes pretty damn close….
on another note, please call week after next so we can go over again your work in Patagonia..i really enjoyed our last conversation and i look forward to your newest work…
cheers amigo, david
I grew up in Fort Lauderdale, sent 18 years in the city and suburbs. Right when I left for college, a group of teenagers I graduated with, whom i wasn’t in acquaintance of, beat some homeless men downtown, killing one of them. For no reason, whatsoever. This sadly may be a trend occurring around the area with youth. As someone who frequently visits family, and growing up there, I always felt the decline of South Florida youth is rapid, and depressing. Even as a young kid I could sense it, I tried to stay on the good side of things.
Sad, nostalgic and thought provoking image. I think it speaks volumes of what the youth of South Florida could be turning into.
Unfortunately this happen to this man, fortunately you were there to document it. Hopefully change can occur.
So, I posted earlier about this, and now with a bit of free time later, I’ve found the most recent numbers I could about youth violence trends, with national statistics from the University of Virginia’s education department relating to school violence. Here’s the link: http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html. The last numbers from the surgeon general I’ve been able to find were from 1999, but it showed pretty similar figures, though a somewhat strange analysis.
Note: the overall trend of youth violence, IS DOWN. There is no upwards trend. There is a bit of variation here or there, but not nearly enough to warrant claiming that violence is on the incline. Does no one else find any problem with stating, in a newspaper, that youth violence is on the rise when in fact, since 1994, it has been in a steep decline overall? The University of Virginia states at the top: “Contrary to public perception, violent crime in schools has declined dramatically since 1994.” The reality is the exact opposite of what is stated. “it is apparent that the problem is growing not shrinking”—newspapers and media outlets are supposed to dispel incorrect public perceptions, not aggravate them.
David, I have shot hundreds of photos of dead bodies. Car wrecks, family violence, fires, suicides. Every one is a snapshot stored in my head, along with the screams of badly injured – and dying – women and children. It’s why I ask, “and then what,” so often. There was never any value in this kind of photo except to sell papers. It was wild and exciting when I was a young shooter. Careening around a city responding to a call on the scanner. Flashing lights and screaming sirens. Yellow tape that I could ignore because I had a camera and a press card. Looking for the great shot, the page one photo.
But all of that is crap. Eye candy. “Great photo.” Forgotten by most people the next day. And then what? It’s easy to find and shoot photos like this. Our small county is full of child and spousal abuse. Drug deals gone bad. I can do it without blinking. But, really, what’s the point? Most people are busy with their own lives, families, kids, and this kind of photo is little more than a diversion.
Our society seems violent because those are the photos we choose to show. Most people don’t beat other people, most people don’t shoot other people, most people don’t kill or steal or rape or beat their wives and children. But that’s not what our society looks like from the front page of a newspaper.
Sadly, this image will sell papers. But then what?
DAH
I definitely would have tried for this shot ten years ago… I would not now. Unless, I was trying to cover and bring some kind of light to the problems of violence, teen or otherwise.
I never said a lot of things people are saying I’m said… I never said it wasn’t a powerful image and I never said it was a photo of gratuitous violence. I was asking questions as to why and what for this was taken. If was just because he was a photojournalist, FINE… However, there were statements made in the description about teen violence and no response about the photographers role in educating or using this image for a purpose. So… Its just a good graphic picture. Further, I personally am just not in line with photos being celebrated and awarded for good journalism if they are just great snapshots. Look, I am not a photojournalist, so I don’t subscribe to a lot of the reasoning photojournalists shoot what they do. I am more of an idealist tree hugging hippie type with a serious concern about human conciousness and why the world is spinning the direction it is. I think celebrating violence, even in the form of a graphic journalistic photo award must be done with great responsibility and for a good reason. As you said this photo could have been staged. I don’t think it was however, whats the difference if there is no purpose to it other than powerful imagery?
Also, I will certainly be in touch, I’ve had a bout with the flu (not Swine) so I haven’t been too busy since we spoke. I do have a lot on the agenda this coming week. Thanks, talk soon…
JIM
My sentiments exactly…
“Sadly, this image will sell papers. But then what?”
Tumbleweeds Jim. Rollllling tumbleweeds.
My initial reaction to this was “this is why I don’t like walking around without something to protect myself”, followed by “this is terrible, what did he possibly do to deserve this? What happened?” There are several people I have known or worked with that were victims of violence. Myself I have had a gun pointed at me, I thought they were going to shoot us because we didn’t have any money, thats another story all together. This image resonates with me for obvious reasons, this guy has been severely assaulted. Questions arising in my mind have to do with debates about gun control, to what extent should people be allowed to protect themselves, questions on what is the right thing to do to deal with this problem. There are so many stories that we learn about involving teen violence, the group of girls that assaulted a girl over something that was said on her myspace page comes to mind. Very powerful.
Jim, I read your comment and it has me thinking as well. You are right that most people dont go around beating and shooting each other and that these kind of images are used to sell papers. At the end of the day, maybe it doesnt change anything but it definitely makes me think, I cant speak for anyone else. It is true that the media glorifies violence and sensationalizes in order to sell papers, or increase ratings etc. It is a sad statement and reflection on our society the kinds of things that sell media. Reflecting on my own comments, I hope that my initial comment doesnt give the impression that I am some kind of barbarian or meathead. I have concerns for my own safety sometimes when I look at things that go on.
ROSS…JIM
i like both of you…my conversations with both of you have overall been terrific…i plan to be having a beer with Jim on his back porch this summer and i am mentoring Ross by telephone as he works in Patagonia…..you both are being honest and i like honest…. and generally i try to be as diplomatic as possible, so in the context of all of the above, i want to be as diplomatic as possible AND disagree as much as i possibly can without going over the line into unwarranted attack which i deplore….so, we are cool..right??
now, both of you make really good points sentence after sentence, and then come to completely the wrong conclusion IMO…or at least with a totally skewed vision of photography whereby a great photograph may have no value just because it may ONLY be great photograph….
for example Jim says “it is easy to find and shoot photos like this”..OMG Jim are you joking? it IS easy to find and shoot SUBJECTS like this, but have you ever ever in all of your 40 years careening around town chasing ambulances made a photograph this strong?? i am asking you flat out..honest opinion and a link to your picture please!!! please Jim, please, a statement like yours just cannot go unchallenged…i mean the difference between taking a picture of a subject and taking a PHOTOGRAPH are two different things Jim….if you really really do not see the difference ,then so be it…
for example Ross says ” i am not in favor of photo awards being given out for journalism if they are just great snapshots”…great snapshots??? what exactly are you in favor of??? at what point would you add MEANING to any newsworthy photograph??? at what point would you declare a photograph to be legitimately newsworthy??
my theory is this…both of you gentlemen are bitter for different reasons..or, maybe the same reason.. i give you both high marks for your overall righteous attitude about the press and responsibility and using pictures the wrong way etc etc..we all believe in the morality of photography for the press as having significant responsibilities….but there is another undercurrent with both of you …and it manifests itself in not being willing to recognize a good photograph for its own sake..or at least without qualifying it with “and then what?”..yes, a good photograph for its own sake…sure photographs often “perform a function”, and for heavens sake, they CAN , but they do not HAVE TO…can you not step back and just look at a photograph as a photograph?? not as a representation, but as an object??? if your answer is no , then you are missing out on one of the great joys of visual stimulation and experience…too bad if that is not your pleasure…i would sincerely wish that you could or would…
ok, nuff said….
Jim, i hope to see you in either July or August if you are in Tyler County at that time….Ross, i just know you are going to do some groundbreaking work in Chile…fertile ground amigo…i hope we meet soonest…
be of good cheer, david
I still believe 100% in my philosophical views with regards to celebrating and awarding the violence in media and imagery. However, I will admit the more I look at this image the more I can appreciate it as a powerful one. It is in fact just that a very powerful well balanced graphic image and certainly a moment.I still wouldn’t award it for that alone. It would have to have accomplished something as part of a larger story or series of supporting images. Whew!!! That was intense… Fun though… and yes David, we are certainly cool…
I’m done with this one, I feel like the guy in the picture must have. Well not really.
ROSS…
we are totally cool..the whole point of comments here on BURN is that we can respectfully have varying opinions about photographs..what they mean and their function… your statement above about the media awarding violence way too often is something that i totally agree with…i just see that as a separate conversation….
now, i just have to sit and wait for Jim to hit me over the head with a baseball bat…..be sure to get the shot!!!
peace, david
Wow, this photograph walks a slippery slope with me. And to think i can´t even see it! I had to google it and see it on a news site that featured a link back to Burn. So i ended up seeing it pretty small. Alas. It´s an incredible photograph. Truly. Artistic, powerful, perfect. And that´s what saves it for me because frankly, blood spilling from bodies on the street is something i have become regretabbly hardened to. And photos of bloodied bodies in the newspapers here..mmm..well, there are 3 papers. La Nacion is for the well-read and educated. They might feature a short article on the incident without a photo. I say ´might´ because the La Nacion has far bigger fish to expose than some man on the street getting mugged by teens. Unless the man being mugged happened to be one of the big fish. El Dia caters to a slightly more salacious reader and they´d feature a photo of the guy being loaded into the ambulance, already sort of cleaned up but still looking pretty traumatized. Then there is Extra that caters to, well, like taxi drivers and they´d feature the victim in all his bloodied gory..er, glory on one page and a mostly naked girl on the next. Still though, since the guy isn´t dead i can´t see Extra sending a photographer out for this. So this photo carries zero shock value for me because i can and have seen enough blood washing into storm sewers to support a blood bank. And yes, it does get repetitive and also oppresive. Sometimes i get seriously depressed by it.
But, David, do i ever GET what you are talking about. This is one drop dead excellent photograph, only made more emotionally harrowing by the fact that it is real life. I don´t much care about the circumstances, in fact í´d rather not know. I want to wonder, to hurt, to be stunned and sad and awestruck and moved without being led by concepts like teen violence. Violence is violence for chrissake!!! And this photograph puts the exclamation point on it. Journalistically the photo is meaningless to me. This photograph has crossed over to the side of art. It would not sell me a newspaper. It would sell me a book.
best
kat
Jim. “But then what?”
What should one being doing nowadays?
a great photograph may have no value just because it may ONLY be great photograph….
———————————
David… :-)))))))))
I imagine all of us waking up in the middle of the night(s) in cold feverish sweats, wishing it was a nightmare that we’d be cursed with shooting ONLY great photographs. What a loss of life, of talent, of… Powers…. God forbid (and DAH-dy too!)
;-)
PS: On the photo itself, I am still struggling with its composition. my eyes (and therefore me for now) find the body too cropped and downward in the frame. Also, if that is of interest to the discussion, prior to reading the note, I thought it was some kind of self-portrait or performance art. And yes, there is always the danger that a photo (this photo?) could actually be not news (or docu) enough, yes presented as usch
yet presented as such….
(Typing on a french keyboard is so annoying)
This discussion has been a welcome break from putting together my little college magazine. (12 hours to deadline…, yet I’m reading burn, wtf?)
I find it interesting that we’re worried about the media “promoting or celebrating” violence. We have good ‘ol Uncle Sam doing enough of that.
On the other page (bullet catcher) we have two boys… Youths… being adopted into the military where they will be trained like dogs to commit atrocious acts of violence on command — and yet we wonder about… Youth violence here at home?
I’m shaking my head at the connection being missed (or deliberately overlooked) by guys like Jim.
“Couple of fine lads with a great future.”
In what world?
Sorry if this point has been made already, just scanned the comments.
GREAT photograph. (and great discussion)
Herve, i love what you said! Made me chuckle. So True. Also great stuff exchanged here, i suppose it’s a conversation that’s long over due. It all makes me think there a horrible paradox in the photojournalism profession.
for example, i wonder if medical surgeons like best ‘saving lives’ or if they like best ‘cutting human flesh’. Maybe it’s a bit of both. But all of the training and effort and successes and failures would seem to surround ways to better cut and sew human flesh, better ways to execute a procedure that by it’s very nature looks a bit counter-intuitive (cut open to save?), but of course that counter-intuitive sentiment defies reality and cutting ‘does’ save.
i suspect if i were a spectator to a passionate discussion between surgeons and their work, they would ‘not’ be passionately discussing how they saved lives, or how many they saved, or what the saved person is doing now. They would be discussing the play-by-play aspect of dispatching that function, that procedure, the outcomes, and the decisions surround an actually surgery.
But no one would ever condemn a surgeon to the level of a heartless butcher would they?
so why is it then when photojournalists do their work, when they apply the skills they were trained for, skills they are qualified to dispatch, and skills directed in a meaningful way, why so often are photojournalist condemned as being vultures, sensationalist, predators, and opportunists?
surgeons learn to cut us up with the benefit of saving lives. photo-journalist learn to anticipate, compose, and capture with the same surgical precision, with the benefit of providing information to us in the most concise captivating way, sometimes for the sake of news, some times for the sake of art, sometimes both. The best journalists appreciate the attention span of an audience and try to deliver a meaningful statement in the most efficient way possible.
i think this image is very efficient in making its intended statement, if all images could make it’s intended statement this coherently we might not need as many words, words that support images that don’t really convey ‘any’ message, they’re just there as a very minor, bit part player in the communication effort.
Some one should write a poem about how self-defeating it must feel to be a good photo-journalist, it should say the closer you get to excellence, the more likely you are to be called a monster by many of your peers.
Anyway, Jim Powers i would love to see some of these images you collected that of the same visual calibre of this, i would like even more to see some of your images promoted on Burn :-) Ones that show the subtle difference between a ‘picture of something’ vs a photograph that has the potential for iconography.
like the analogy Joe.
joe: :))))
Ok, SURPRISE, i break my silence….only to say:
great great analogy…and that is IT in a nut shell…and one of the points that has often driven me nuts here and elsewhere when folk discuss pictures…particularly journalism…the point i tried to make in my original comment about a photographer (especially a journalist) sees through honed skills (the training in cutting) the value of moment, as both narrative/historical moment and metaphor, pics need both, humans need both (the importance of mythology and narrative in all our lives, photographic or otherwise)…and “so why is it then when photojournalists do their work, when they apply the skills they were trained for, skills they are qualified to dispatch, and skills directed in a meaningful way, why so often are photojournalist condemned as being vultures, sensationalist, predators, and opportunists?” is just spot on…
thanks so much for…and i’ll work on that poem ;))…(actually done, just wait) :)))
great stuff Joe…really, great stuff! :))
(back to behind scenes)
cheers
bob
DAH – i will call you today so we can follow up on our conversation. xo
Michael , first rate job and even more remarkable that the depiction of violence doesnt play a huge part in your work from what I can tell from your site , sound photographic instincts ….Instinct ? Hmmm I read a lot of 20 20 hindsighters with views on this picture that I think just don’t wash in the context of photography being an instinctual act not some long drawn out ,agonised ,discussion on wether or not michael shouldor , the moment is gone and you might as well take up painting, Michael your instincts on this one were spot on and your sense of composition remarkable considering the circumstances.
Dude You nailed it!
and here’s a few precedents that imediately came to mind of why this might be such an interesting picture for CHRISSAKE!
http://www.bhikku.net/
http://www.acjournal.org/holdings/vol10/s_special/images/bowers/image033.jpg
Jim shit, I really thought I was done here. Yes nice analogy but you have forgot the surgeon who is in it for recognition and money. I have had two pretty major surgeries in the last two and a half years on my hip (in order to avoid replacement as long as possible) The first surgeon was a world renowned guy who had a rep as the best arthroscopic hip surgeon on the plant. After my surgery he left to catch a plane (probably to a golf outing) withouit talking to me or my mother who was there with me. Further, For follow up on my surgery which had me on crutches fro two months I met with him back in Nashville for about three minutes and never got to speak to him again. Just his assistants… Oh did I mention my hip grew worse after he dug in there and did his procedure he was trained for… A similar situation with my new surgeon. It seems these guys see so many patients and are trying so hard to make a name for themselves in their fields that they often forget the patient.
Sound familiar, photojournalist shoot a lot of photos!!!