Hand by Michal Jedrzejowski
Website: www.lightstalkers.org/michal_jedrzejowski
- burn is an evolving
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burn is curated by
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david alan harvey.
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DAH
Wow looks like I offended you which wasn’t my intention. However, I have never been put quite so harshly in my place… I suppose I now know where I stand as a mediocre photographer. I’m sorry for my participation on the BURN forum… I’ll back off…
P.S. what facts did I have wrong?
ROSS…
quite the contrary…i was not offended….you were being honest …i responded in kind…isn’t that fair enough???
your comments were provocative enough to warrant a response from me…i think anyone can see that….but, i ended my text with a clear invitation to work with you in the future….
now Ross, i spent time with you already as per your request..yes??..and i was prepared to spend more time based on your potential…i did not call you mediocre…i said you were not there yet…do you not think that mentioning the goals you have would allow for honest critique?? do you not think that any and all of the photographers you mentioned are very honest and forthcoming with often “harsh” critique with each other?? and the goals to which you aspire would automatically set you up for a very honest appraisal which is what you told me on the phone you wanted?? there is not one student i have ever had at one of my workshops or any emerging photographer i see who does not receive as honest a critique as i gave you…ask around….
if you want to be all that you can be, then you just shake off the dust right now , get back on your horse and you prove me wrong….simple…please go do it….you can…
cheers, peace… david
Ross…DAH is like a proud daddy with this site, his “youngsters” (no matter how old), their achievements and their voices and when someone picks on them he gets prickly. Maybe he slapped your wrist and maybe it was sort of bad timing since you were already offering your mea culpas but read what he said at the end.he wants to work with you. What more could you ask? So don’t go away mad, don’t go away at all. Just suck this one up, stick around and i wish you the very best with your Ecuador project.
and that’s it for me tonight..
best:
kat~
DAH..you posted while i was writing..didn’t know :)
k/
KATHLEEN…
laughing…exactly…thanks…
cheers, david
If you can’t I understand, however, is it possible for you to remove the posts that I have hijacked this forum with as it pertains to me and my aspirations. I would be really pissed if this was my photo and this is where the comments led to….
So interesting how the conversation goes from reactions to the work to technicalities of how it may have coulda/woulda/shoulda been shot to upholding the beliefs of those infamous photographers in their hayday…this is obviously all relevant (and I certainly am guilty of critiquing from all of these aspects) … and I’m a firm believer in having a film background, and knowing how to expose and getting the picture right in the camera (rather than photoshopping it to death)…
My thoughts are a-jumble here, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that art, in any capacity, deserves our reaction to it as art… what is your (the viewer’s) connection to the piece? What does it make you feel? How can you analyze the perspective of the subject to the viewer to the photographer… and back and forth throughout this circle of connection? How else are we supposed to look at a piece that is brought before our eyes with no further information, written or otherwise?
Yes, technical critique is absolutely valid ( and oftentimes my first reaction), and certainly be aware of how our craft came to be and the views of those who brought it to even be considered “art” rather than mere duplication of what already exists… (thank you Alfred Steiglitz and f/64… purists, glorious purists and art makers)… but I think that each photographer and their efforts here on BuRN should be applauded for putting their work out there… Our critique should be constructive in order to help them achieve the end they seek… isn’t this the point of BuRN? To lift each other to create better work and achieve the goals we seek?
I say, shoot on, fellow, photogs, everything and anything…after all, opinions are like assholes….
everybody’s got one.
I’m wondering…where is Bob Black’s opinion?
Kathleen,
in all honesty, it was a silly rant. This is 2008, photography now is not the same as it was when that book, whatever it is called, was written and published. There are genres of the art now that were never really imagined, there are new concepts and ideas. What a silly thing to say that one doesnt have the right to speak about photography because one didn’t read a book that is by today obsolete.
Also there really isnt a reason to sulk because DAH tell you you aren’t “There” yet. Its obvious to anyone that “There” is different for DAH than me, you or Ross. When you get exposed to Magnum photogs on a daily basis and the intense discussions that go on I think “There” moves a bit further up the ladder. Id say none of us here are really “There” by this standard. But thats no reason to sulk. Its a reality, and also a great motivator.
Ross,
as I said, I think you are basing your ideas too much on an obsolete book. Photography is in such a different place now than it was when the book was written. I think you are losing out on a lot by dismissing work so easily. Never dismiss anything. I love to look at all sorts of photography, obviously I have favorites but I try not to dismiss anything, there’s always ideas and inspiration to be found all over the place. So you want to be a Nat Geo photog. Great aspirations, but look at DAH. He was a Nat Geo photog, but unlike you, he has a wide field of interest. Burn is a testament to this. Look at the variety of work here, from PJ to intensely intimate. Getting a burn from David is something you should expect. Fuck, Im sure David has said negative things to Magnum and Nat Geo guys, too, why should you or I or anyone be spared? I recall that I got a less than warm review of the portfolio I showed him 2 years ago, and you know what? Upon reflection I see that David was 100% right. I wouldnt show anyone that portfolio ever again. But that review got me thinking along different lines.
Technical issues:
Im a 100% be;iever in the fact that technical issues are a non-issue. Sorry, unless it is a HIGHLY BOTCHED piece of work, who the hell cares? Not me. Infact I find often times, perfect exposures go hand in hand with absolutely mind numbingly boring stuff. Well exposed but boring stuff. Then there are examples of stuff you would call technicaly flawed blowing your mind. Its a work I often bring up because its so good, Ray’s a Laugh by Billingham. A work where the technical flaws make the work compelling.
Carrie,
You are right, but its always the case that you will find one or two people who instead of trying to help or lift up, lash out and try to bring the whole thing down. I think its a reality one has to deal with in any forum. The best advice is to ignore them because they bring nothing constructive to the table and usually their problems with the posted work stem from something completely different…like a failed attempt to shoot for Nat Geo.
i do not know anything about taking a photo. i want to learn and this is why i follow BURN. this is why i take offense when an honest response makes others think i am KMA. i did not know about DAH before BURN – sorry. now i know a lot about him and the rest of the people here who i am sure he will make great-someone here- as he deems. this is his website so it is understandable that people think so.
honestly, when i first saw michal’s picture i thought to myself well, i could have done that. it is that simple but i did not have “a longer unit” (laughing at you-know-who-you are) to submit and even take the picture or even have the eyes to think that that makes a good picture. and not just delete, delete. and i think that this makes a better photographer… THE EYE!!
and then i saw carrie’s and the others’ responses. if a picture evokes some reaction in a viewer then it is a picture that matters at least to someone at that moment.
ross, if DAH removes your hijacking to your satisfaction, that’s ok with me. i valued your input and i valued even more how the others responded. and i am thankful i have seen this thread before it ever gets pulled.
being minions, we have invoked higher powers in all aspects of life. at least this GOD everyone here speaks so highly of is willing to work with you. that makes every single one of us envious.
bump what Kat said above. plod on mister, im keeping an eye on you ;)
RAFAL…
yes, yes…”there” is very subjective….i should be very clear that specific critique is based on what the photographer is telling me she/he wants to do or to become or to publish…
your work now is 180 degrees from the portfolio you originally showed me….you really went out and found your own voice..not my voice…your voice…..this is all i expect from a fine photographer…
by the way, this is 2009
cheers, david
crap, it is 2009…..
Anyway, yeah but it often takes a kick in the arse to get out of a rut.
GRACIE…
there is no hijacking…this is just a straightforward discussion all based on the picture at hand (no pun intended)….
i hope you know that i do work with many photographers in many ways to help them become authors of their own destiny…but, i am just an ordinary man who enjoys working with those who have enthusiasm, talent and a real desire move to their “next step”…believe me, i am nobody special…fate has allowed me to have found my place in life and i find it rewarding to help others find their way, in their own way…
cheers, david
DAH,
ross asked his “hijacking” be removed. i hope you won’t but it’s up to you.
i meant no disrespect by calling you names. people here hold you in the highest regard and so do i. it is clear what you are trying to do here in BURN. and i, being a beginner, truly appreciate that.
you are still policing this website at an unGODly hour – no pun intended. pretty soon you might need some dark coffee.
zzzz
me
Rafal
ya’ know i think we’re all entitled to a “silly rant” now and then. Matter of fact, i cannot count the number of times i have woken up the morning after with an achey-breaky case of “writer’s remorse”..in fact it got so i wouldn’t write anything online at night, not even an e-mail because i could completely lose sight of the words restraint, tact, diplomacy, tolerance and reason. So Ross had a rant..so he was feeling resentful and petulant..he also quickly realized what a mud pie he had slung at the forum and quickly apologized. Man, waddyawant him to do, slit his wrists? He was already down from DAH’s thrashing and you come along and get in an extra kick for good measure.
Also, there is much truth and wisdom in old tomes that can be beautifully applied to creating art using new technologies. Don’t be so quick to bash his fave if you haven’t read it. As a matter of fact, i have this book. And with essays by the likes of Robert Frank, Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, Man Ray, Aaron Siskind, Steiglitz, Strand, Weston, Minor White, Wynn Bullock, Harry Callahan, Berenice Abbott, HCB etc.etc..see what i mean? It doesn’t get better than that. In fact, here’s a quote by Robert Frank that really does suit this situation well:
“Above all i know that life for a photographer cannot be a matter of indifference. Opinion often consists of a kind of criticism. But criticism can come out of love. It is important to see what is invisible to others-perhaps the look of hope or the look of sadness. Also it is always the instantaneous reaction to oneself that produces a photograph.”
Dated? Obsolete? well, tell me, Rafal..is it really?
best:
kat~
Gracie:
“Ross, if DAH removes your hijacking to your satisfaction, that’s ok with me. i valued your input and i valued even more how the others responded. and i am thankful i have seen this thread before it ever gets pulled.”
YES!
kat~
Gordon L.
said:
” I learned photography with a 4×5 Calumet view camera…”
yes.. i know this camera very very well.. that was the camera i had to use in my first paid job when
i first came to LA… 15 years ago… for a prom… $75 for the whole day of work…
Man you brought back so many memories…
“…However to reject the technology available to us now is just plain stupid.
Reminds me of the photogs who predicted the end of the world as we know it when built in light meters arrived….”
Laughing, laughing..i agree Gordon… i agree…
“Purists” make me crazy”…
Laughing, tell me about it… You know what Gordon, most of those “purists” never worked
with those old cameras… they have no idea how hard it is,…
DAH
“believe me, i am nobody special”
oh poo..and here i thought you were the Messiah, The Prophet Mohammed, or maybe one of the Nine Chinese Emperor Gods..and now, i mean, really…YOU’RE NOT?!? c’mon, you aren’t even like a minor Indian deity? not even a good luck charm? a white witch maybe? You really mean to say you’re just a normal person like Jim or Ataky or Panos..ok, well, he isn’t all that normal, ok, or Sidney or Patricia or Carrie or somebody?
wow…what now? all hope for my redemption is lost. That’s the only reason i was hanging around this place. Hey wait, well, there is some small comfort knowing you aren’t a god..at some point if you do a portfolio review of my work or something and i don’t like what you say i can just tell you, “well, what the hell do YOU know anyway? You’re just human!”
heh
kat~
GRACIE….KATHLEEN…
Gracie, well i guess we are even since i called you “sweet” once ..i apologized for that, didn’t i??..but, what you are is funny!!
now friends , how can i start editing a thread??? if i did that once, wouldn’t that set a bad precedent?? to “erase” this set of comments would mean pulling about 10 comments at least…
i mean, we all have to be responsible for what we say….and do we not all give pause to what we say sometimes?? that is the nature of this beast i am afraid….
ok, out of coffee..going to bed…
cheers, david
Thanks everyone, I learned a lot tonight. I’m out of coffee too. goodnight.
well, i guess that’s that. we cant use Eberhardt 4H on this website.
(but ross, pssst. rossss, are you still awake? psssst. maybe you can log on under a different name…)
Gracie, yer hilarious, girl!
everyone’s down but the last three people ALIVE are still standing:
Gracie, Kat and Panos!
Long live BURN! (or film? what was that now?) zzzzzzzzz
man, Panos, that video was intense..in fact, it was so in your face it could have been shot by, well, by you actually…super hot stuff..
g’night gracie, g’night lucy..g’night Ricky..
kat~
GRACIE….
Wrong!!! i am still here….you just never know, so beware, beware…..
DAH,
Please don’t edit the threads! Not that I think you would, but…
I do my best to edit my thoughts as I go..as do most of you… to remain insightful, intelligent, appreciative, and critical when viewing the work… a lot of the time, I am trying not to offend because I don’t always have the knowledge or history to back everything up… (not that I haven’t done research or am choosing to remain ignorant)… more like, I am an eternal student, and I rely on the viewpoints and perspectives of everyone here in order to help me expand my view and teach me something. You are my classmates, and I love hearing (reading) what you all have to say… this is why we all like to BuRN, isn’t it? In addition to seeing who is currently doing what… and where photography is going…
DAH,
i have two words for you..”edit button”..(so WE can edit ourselves)..that would be an idjit’s best friend..
k/
Kathleen,
I didnt want to get a kick in , that wasnt my intention. I didnt actually do that but maybe it came across as so.
As far as the book, maybe obsolete isnt the right word and Im sure there are things there that are valuable, but as far as using a book published 60 years ago or whatever as the bible? Thats sort of silly. As I said, photography has changed so much. None of the names you listed are photographers I look at anymore. I think anyone who sort of begins an interest in photography looks to the old masters but theres a time to split from them because to not do so means to stagnate. Photography has moved beyond those old masters, which isnt a value judgement just a statement of fact. Theres things done with photography now that they never dreamed of doing, its just a different time. Like shooting in color as a simple difference. Thats all I was saying.
Ben and All
Sorry for the cranky defensive tone of my last post. I should have let the wine wear off before spouting off like that.
Peace and all that.
Gordon L.
Panos…you are too funny, man…
ALL,
being hurt, getting hurt… part of the game…
pain… the only thing thats real…
its ok..
… sometimes we Hurt one another…
to prove, to explain, to justify, to state…
here’s Johnny talking about it:
( again, its OK…)
..I dont mind people Hurting me,
its OK if i Hurt someone… its ok…
what i cant stand though is GUILT…
Mean Spirited people dont have the balls to Hurt you…
but they will gladly instill GUILT in your soul… WITH A SMILE…
( some people call them PRIESTS… or Preachers…or Popes, or Teachers…)
ROSS – you are a lucky man to get critiqued as that from the man himself. I would have. It’s priceless.
Haik- Yes, the trick is to use that critique to move forward. A good critique frees you up, it’s certainly not something to get peeved over!! As you say, priceless!!
Oops forgot to mention; I like this image. I like the graphic nature and am left with the thought; was the photographer the other bed occupant or an interloper? I think the subtle tones a nd vignetting works well.
@gordon lafleur
water under the bridge mate.
where would this forum be without alcohol induced, and sometimes regretted, posts :ø)
´handy´ discussion.
hoho and ho
This photo made me want to see more, so I checked out your lightstalker account; really great set’s! I get a feeling of loneliness and sadness coming from this photo. I wish I really knew what was going on, but if I did I wouldn’t be this intrigued.
A lot of people get wrapped up in the idea that art is simple, someone mentioned in this forum that “they could have done this”. Whenever start to feel that way I just remind myself of the difference, I didn’t. I think if you could have done something, you should get busy and start doing it; add to the pile and make someone else say “I could have done that.”
Hope there’s more of this style of work here, It feels like an addendum to the Sakhalin essay. I love seeing the different ways people get such rich tones out of the color white.
P.S. Punctuation is off, but it’s 7 in the morning, and I’m a little drowsy.
“You can observe a lot by just watching. – Yogi Berra
;))
I second gordons reply. When I shoot documentary (strictly for the cash, and under a different name :) ) I use a d2x set ALWAYS to Aperture priority. The metering modes in that camera are WAY better than I need to be. A bit of exposure compensation dialled in manually as needed, and an eye always on the shutter speed is all i need to take flawless exposures until the cows come home. I also have lots of manual dial fiddly twisty bits cameras and hand held meters that i love using,[all my rock and roll work is on a fully manual only clockwork leica] but to say a ‘pro’ would never sully themselves with semi auto modes is twaddle. At the end of the day you make a picture, no one except other photographers give a rats arse how you shot it.
john
I use Aperture priority much of the time, simply because the camera can set the shutter speed for the aperture I’ve chosen faster than I can. If I want to compensate, that capability is right under my thumb. I shot manual cameras for years, but to believe they are “more pure” than auto is just silly. And as John said, nobody looking at your images (except other photographers) cares what you shot it with or whether you turned the shutter speed dial or the camera did the same thing electronically. Elitist BS. A camera is just a tool.
whatever allows you to work instinctively..
for the first year of the course my students were told only manual, less than 200 asa, always handheld meter.
first assignment i gave them was to snap at a big oil company conference.. mixed lighting.. dim lighting.. by lunchtime the result was piss poor and thats when they told me how they were shooting..
i told them pretty much what john has written and the afternoon results were great.
whatever the situation demands..
BTW – in class right now.. teaching how to read photos with feeling.. going to use this and ´losses´. . .
JIM
i never thought i would say this, but i agree with you!!!