to have by daria endresen

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To Have and Not to Hold       Self Portrait by Daria Endresen


http://1x.com/member/2744/daria-endresen/

Published on April 4, 2009 by david alan harvey. 255 Comments

255 Responses to “to have by daria endresen”

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  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    And here are the lyrics….

    Rape me
    Rape me, my friend
    Rape me
    Rape me again

    am i the only one .IIIII [3x]
    am i the Only one…

    Hate me
    Do it and do it again
    Waste me
    Rape me, my friend

    am i the only one .IIIII [3x]
    am ithe Only one…

    My favorite inside source
    I’ll kiss your open sores
    I appreciate your concern
    You’re gonna stink and burn

    Rape me
    Rape me, my friend
    Rape me
    Rape me, again

    am i the only one ?, IIIII [3x]
    am i the Only one?…

    Rape me! (Rape me!)[9x]
    Rape me!

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    oh man………
    i just realized that the Troller Borgia HAS JUST REVEAL HIS REAL NAME…
    ok then… i agree… HE IS REALLY REACHING OUT ACCEPTING THE “PEACE OFFER” THAT DAH & HOMER…offered…
    so now its my go…

    Mr. DIMITRIOS MELLOS…
    I JUST REALIZED YOU ARE GREEK… a brother…………
    Oh… now i remember the greek civil war…etc…
    As Arnold once said in the Terminator movie…
    I’m programmed NOT to harm humans… same here…
    my greek mother programmed me NOT TO FIGHT WITH GREEKS….
    i just visited your site and NOSTALGIA filled my soul…
    So since you’ve a bigger man and opened up & unTrolled yourself…
    then i have to admit that now i feel disarmed..
    No more Civil war between us my Greek brother..
    Lets all meet at the CIVILIAN’S greek home and have a beer…
    or two… or OUZO……..OR TSIPOURO…
    (Homer, thanks again for the WHITE FLAG… i just didnt notice on time that
    mr MELLOS revealed himself finally…
    i just cant talk to Trolls.. thats all…
    and to be honest all this time i thought that Borgias is also the Fly and also..
    someone i know very very well……..
    :))))))))))))))))))))))))
    biggest hug

  • A Fly (on the Wall)
    April 7, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    That nasty Greek man from LA
    Rants all night and all day
    When he’s done spanking his monkey
    He’ll say something funky
    Why does he call everyone gay???

    Remember, Mr. Harvey, Panos’ homophobia reflects on you and Burn.

    Mr. Panos, I have a question for you:

    If Burn would be more successful if you didn’t verbally harass people here, would you control yourself? Or are you so selfish that your need to hurt others is more important?

    A question to everyone:

    Why do you condone his behavior?

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    … and for Ben..( not ignoring you )…
    I know you hated me and my VENICE BEACH work since the first day it was published
    here on BURN… so trust me i do feel safe around you…
    As DAH & HOMER noticed we disagree about EVERYTHING AROUND PHOTOGRAPHY…
    which is fine….. just like JIM…
    When for example JIM and YOU hate on a photo i immediately know it must be a good photo…….
    :)))))))
    but its all about taste…….. and yes i will stay on the other side of the room not only because
    you insulted my venice work numerous times and my “ugly” venice book as you said earlier…
    but since i’m here at DARIA’S “ROOM”….
    I have to admit that you brutally insulted DARIA…
    and you made me act “overprotective” as Kathleen noticed…
    You woke up the KING KONG protector in me BEN… thats all……….
    Again though… although we disagree ABOUT EVERYTHING…
    as DAH said earlier …. yes i would still move my ass from the other side of the room…
    approach you………. bring you a beer of your choice………. and give you a hug……..
    trust DAVID ALAN HARVEY ON THIS ONE…HE KNOWS ME BETTER THAN YOU DO……..
    so… peace flag to you too……….
    now i have to go on with my “show”………

    ( ANDREW B..:)))))))))))) SEE WHAT YOU DID TO ME LAST NIGHT??????????????????? )
    BIG HUG….

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    fLY..:))))))))))
    Still seeking attention through me??????
    Am i so important to you…….

    Listen, ok…
    i WILL also bring you a beer but you have to promise to UN-TROLL YOUR NAME…
    please dont stay outside … come in with us…
    many empty seats….
    until then though… listen to the Nirvana song above….
    ( again baby… its not that hard… tell us your little name… or maybe you cant???????
    Why do i still have a feeling that you are somebody I ( we ) all know???????????
    Again… step in… reveal your cute little face……
    big hug to U2
    :))))))))))))

  • ben roberts
    April 7, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    er, no. I didn’t brutally insult Daria. ridiculous comment.

    and i don’t hate you either panos. I just find your ranting tiresome. there is a difference; we don’t all love and hate – there are shades of grey.

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    shades of grey…
    ok.. agreed!

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    …& Ben, thank you for responding…
    no sarcasm… it means a lot to me!
    :)

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    …and last one for Ben…
    you know what is the PARADOX i see between me and you…?
    Although we disagree in “everything”……..
    check this out…..
    I totally dig your photography… and once again i agree with HOMER that
    you are great in what you do!
    see the paradox?
    How come our tastes are so extreme opposite although we both like your work????????
    I have no idea…….
    Anyways……..
    big hug

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    Esteemed Mr. Skoulidas,

    had you not been so busy ranting and insulting me (among others), you might have noticed that I had already revealed my real name since 3:53 yesterday (April 6th) afternoon. Even after that, numerous attacks from you kept pouring in my direction.

    By the way, the nom-de-plume Gorgias was not an attempt to hide my identity, but a joking pun – as you may not know, Gorgias and Protagoras were the two famous sophists of antiquity.

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    and by the way Panos, you should not be offering me an olive branch and promising not to attack me just because I also happen to be Greek. You should extend the same courtesy to all participants in this forum, even if they have the audacity to disagree with you. It’s elementary human decency and good manners, if nothing else.

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    ……. funny thing also … i was reading Borgias instead of G…
    one more thing in common…
    not only greeks but also Sophists….
    :))))))))))))))))
    Welcome in… grab a chair…
    and lets keep on disagreeing…….
    big hug……..

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    … also sent u an email…
    just in case u wanna keep the misunderstandings behind the scenes…..
    peace out
    :)

  • Gorgias, aka dimitri
    April 7, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    There has been no misunderstanding on my part, Panos. I do and will condemn your intolerant attitude and terrible temper toward people who happen to disagree with you – even if we are fellow greeks.

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    … sweet… nothing wrong with that….
    be u… im not trying to “convert” you…….
    but please please Do the same…….let me be me……
    Ignore me if you wish………
    I aint “changing” either……..
    lets find some common ground…..
    lets just “ignore” each other……..
    nothing wrong with that……
    stay out of my “case”….. and i will stay out of your case……
    promise…!
    ok……. back to my late night show now… and lets hope we wont hear from each other
    ever again……
    no hug ( this time )
    :))))))))))))))))))))))

  • david alan harvey
    April 7, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    FLY….

    you wrote:

    “Remember, Mr. Harvey, Panos’ homophobia reflects on you and Burn.

    Mr. Panos, I have a question for you:

    If Burn would be more successful if you didn’t verbally harass people here, would you control yourself? Or are you so selfish that your need to hurt others is more important?

    A question to everyone:

    Why do you condone his behavior?” end quote..

    my response:

    Mr. Fly, i always like your comments here, but isn’t that just a wee bit extreme??? somebody writing on an open forum where there is no censorship could not possibly reflect on the forum itself except to show its democratic openness …unless, of course, we censor/edit/ moderate the comments, in which case you would be the first to go since you are a UFO….but, that ain’t happening…i welcome you and you know i do….and i totally understand your point…but, the opinions and language and overall behavior of others should not be construed as “mine”…this is unfortunately the tricky part of the net…..and, believe me, i am not “sold” on the net entirely….

    first off, i personally do NOT condone Panos’ behavior at times….but, i do know who he is, his work, and his background…he is right out front with all of it…..says what he means, means what he says, and PHOTOGRAPHS THE WHOLE DAMN THING….there is a photographic record of all of his BS…some of this record will someday be a matter of record i predict….sometimes, yes, he does not know when to stop while driving around stoned blasting from his iPhone, but i will lean towards anyone who is actually WORKING/PHOTOGRAPHING all the time even if i do not like what they are SAYING/WRITING….

    ever hang around with Bill Allard or Bruce Gilden???? damn , i do not condone the behavior and/or language of many of the photographers, musicians, and artists, and dentists i know…some whose behavior i absolutely do not condone are my friends…do i WISH Panos were as polite and demure as Patricia?? maybe, but THAT would not work either…would it???

    we have an open forum here where the intellectuals like Joe can write and the tortured souls like Panos can also write….probably cathartic for both…actually, i could just have mis-spoken because Joe just might really be the tortured soul and Panos might be the intellectual….we all know that BS cuts both ways….anyway, perhaps you get my drift….

    long before your arrival, and continuing now, i am the “tortured soul” over the comments in general…i have bent to the ways of the net by allowing comments at all under essays and singles…since i grew up in print, commenting on pictures etc just is not my instinct..however, the one day i tried to close comments and have everyone move over to Dialogue for purposes of discussion, the civilian mass audience here kicked my door down!!!! even my girlfriend was on my case!!!

    there is another very very interesting phenomena…..commenters here account for less than one tenth of one percent of the daily readership….there is an incorrect assumption that the commenters comprise the whole of BURN….the other non-writing, non-commenting, 99.9% hang out for a long time here (8 minutes average), which means they must be reading the comments or going through the archives…hmmm, are the commenters entertainment or education??? i do not know….i suspect both

    Fly, i am open to suggestions….but, please please do not hold me responsible for what everyone or anyone says here…please look at the big picture….if we were to edit the comments after the fact (which we will do for the book or year end print issue) then all of this “mess” will look like it looks backstage before a play….BURN on line is a daily journal reflecting on the readers here and on my set up for the whole “book”…in the “big picture” i think we are doing just fine…

    in any case, your suggestions are welcomed….

    cheers, david

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    … what do most magazines or newspapers usually write on the bottom of every article…?
    (someone help with the free translation…)
    something like… “…the personal opinions of the above author does not necessarily reflects the whole magazine…blah, blah…… etc…)

    laughing…
    me? homophobic?
    Now thats the “gay-iest” thing i’ve ever heard…
    :)))))))))))))
    lol

  • panos skoulidas
    April 7, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    ….. and again.. read the Nirvana’s first verse of All Apologies… below:

    “…What else should I be
    All apologies
    What else should I say
    Everyone is gay…”

    If Kurt Cobain was homophobic… then count me in..
    ;-)

  • A Fly (on the Wall)
    April 8, 2009 at 1:38 am

    Dear Mr. Harvey,

    First of all, I have a lot of respect for what you are trying to doing here.

    The only reason I am speaking up is I think Burn has great potential, but also has a monstrous problem… I think you see yourself the increasing level of commenting that falls somewhere in the spectrum of insensitive to cruel.

    I don’t think anyone deserves the harassment and hazing I have witnessed here, and I am writing from a position of empathy of the targets rather than a friend of the perpetrator. When I see unnecessary cruelty going on, I figure someone has to speak up. I also figure anyone who doesn’t condones what’s going on.

    To me, it doesn’t matter what sort of person or photographer Panos is because I’ve seen the effects of his words. You can’t give Michael Hassoun that day back, the one after he was set upon, for one example.

    If he really does “mean what he says” then he is a pretty despicable person, judging from his comments here on your forum. I hope he doesn’t “mean what he says”!

    How do these comments affect Burn? I’m curious to know what do you think. I think they set the level of what’s acceptable behavior lower and lower as time goes on, so the environment becomes ever more toxic. The population of targeted people grows, poised to defend themselves or leave. No big surprise 99.9% won’t comment, who wants to dive into a dirty, poisoned fishbowl.

    I think the comments are also doing the photographers a grave disservice. How could they use your publishing as a professional reference with the childish nonsense attached to their work?

    The level of discourse, I think, is distasteful and repellant to many (thoughtful adult types), and limits your audience… and limits how seriously you are taken. I do think there may be a voyeuristic population that is here for the laughs (though I’d worry if those were “at” rather than “with”… maybe that doesn’t matter).

    So yes, I still think the tenor and the tone of comments here does reflect, even defines Burn, and if indirectly, you. I’m sorry to say this, but I think it’s important. Others should know their words reflect on you. You may not think so, Panos etc., may not think so, but others outside the bubble may.

    I asked Panos a direct question… If his verbal harassment was detrimental to Burn, would he control himself. I wouldn’t expect him to answer me, but maybe that’s something you could take up with him privately, if you haven’t already. Why would he persist, if it were destructive to something he is so deeply invested in… you don’t have to be Freud to figure this one out, right? But allowing the efforts of so many to be held hostage by one individual’s psychological problems doesn’t seem like a recipe for success…

    Also, I have to say your defense of Panos in these situations tells him, and everyone else on Burn, that he can continue to attack anyone with impunity. This kind of does make you directly responsible for whatever he does next.

    Well, this is all just me. This is not my blog, not my project, take whatever I say with a big grain of salt… and I’ll depart after this… I’d just hate to see all the good work fail for no good reason. Then again, if Burn fails, it would mean an end to some small measure of meanness in the world, so there’s the upside.

    Good luck, Mr. Harvey, you need it.

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 8, 2009 at 3:13 am

    FLY…& ALL

    With due respect to everybody, I must say that it is high time that somebody should say something about the recent ‘trend’ that we are seeing for some weeks here in Burn.

    Just consider this as my opinion for the time being and reject, if you must.

    From whatever I have understood about Burn over the time (and please correct me if I am wrong), David wants this magazine to be more of a collaborative and collective effort for all of us and he definitely doesn’t want it to be HIS magazine only. In this respect, please refer to the official description of the magazine “Burn is an evolving journal for emerging photographers”. Burn may be curated by David but for its improvement, he seeks our opinion every now and then and he listens to everybody’s suggestions and implements them as and when the same can be implemented. I think nobody can have any complaints in this regard.

    Now, proceeding on the basis that Burn is OUR magazine rather than David’s magazine only, I must say that knowingly or unknowingly and willingly or unwillingly, we have certain duties and responsibilities that we must observe in this regard.

    Now, talking about this trend, FLY, without expressing any opinion about what you have said above, I just want to point out one thing that I think must be pointed out here. You said “…and I’ll depart after this…”. I am sorry to say that I have seen many people saying this in the last few weeks and I can see that many sane voices are already absent from here. This really is saddening. If you honestly think that what you are saying is RIGHT, then I think that is ALL THE MORE REASON for you to stay here and help us improve ourselves. I know that nobody can stop anybody from leaving a public forum like this, but FLY do you really believe that your or my and anybody else’s ‘leaving’ the forum is going to help us improve or do you really think that it is THE SOLUTION? If you believe that WE are going wrong somewhere, you must point that out…not once, not twice but if needed thousand times till we achieve OUR goal. This I am not saying to you only, but I am saying it to everybody who might have ‘left’ us or might be contemplating ‘leaving’ or might have gone ‘silent’. Problems are everywhere, in our personal lives, in families, in society, in politics, in our finances…tell me a place where there is no problem at all? You just cannot escape problems, not only here but anywhere…! So, guys this IS the time to STICK TOGETHER for our own sake and not to be selfish and escape. When so many of us will be working towards achieving that common goal, we are sure to find a solution much sooner rather than later.

    I have said this earlier and I say it again that I am here to learn. I personally badly miss many voices here that I just adored and greatly respected for their clear and unambiguous opinions and analysis of photographs and essays. I don’t know what has happened to them! There was a time when I was personally very ‘scared’ of commenting here because many bad interpretations were made of them by some people. But then I thought what-the-hell, I am not going to succumb to these guys! I have my opinion and I must stick to them and not worry about what some guys say about them and let me decide whom I am going to listen to and whom I am going to ignore. If somebody is shouting madly at me, it is easy to shout back madly at him/her but such arguments are destined to be doomed from the start as they take you nowhere. I think that ignoring or showing total indifference to them is the greatest ‘insult’ that I can inflict under the circumstances and with time, these voices will die down no doubt, being deprived of the ‘fuel’ that they need to survive.

    So guys, let’s promise ourselves that there will be no more talks of ‘leaving’ and in stead, let’s talk about ‘living’ for a change. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, can’t you? :-)

    Happy Burning…

    Bodo

  • Rafal Pruszynski
    April 8, 2009 at 3:21 am

    I think its on the record how I feel about Panos, but I must say that as far as Panos is concerned I agree with Fly. David set this forum up as a great tool but it seems to me that some people are so greedy and selfish that they have appopriated the forum David has lent them and, to put it nicely, spit all over it. I always felt and feel still that Panos’ behavior on this forum is destructive. Ultimately it is destructive towards the work David and Anton are trying to do and to the work submitted and featured here. When what should be the stage of the featured photographer is hijacked (consistently) by one attention starved egomaniac, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. And it needs to start with the offender(s) themselves understanding that they are a real problem. Panos isnt the only one, but he is the main culprit.

  • ian aitken
    April 8, 2009 at 4:20 am

    Rafal,

    Well said.

    Sure Panos has enthusiasm etc talent? I’m sure he could go far if that enthusiasm is channeled in the right direction. That is for him to decide, it might come with maturity. Sure as David has said in the past he is the only one who has delivered on time, these are all fine attributes. I have not been a burner for long, but I very quickly grew tired of the hijackings and attention seeking, and have said so in past postings, I find them easy to ignore now.It just a bit irksome opening up abusive post first thing in the morning over a cup of coffee.

    I used to work for highly talented and well respected photographer who would do anything to get the shot, (including swimming across the amazon, because the dug out had been hijacked, holding a 4×5 above his head) I used to get shouted at,dismissed,humiliated infront of my peers, I put up with it to learn from the guy and sure his attitude was fun sometimes because he said what he felt and we had some wild times.

    He worked in the ad industry for years but eventually, the industry turned on him because he was such hard work, I was even in an ad agency when I overheard a conversation saying they wanted his style but not to use him because of the attitude.

    There are boundaries to respect.

  • Haik
    April 8, 2009 at 4:47 am

    Bodo – well said … you have way too much heart. I feel you.

    Rafal? You could not slip the chance to make an announcement, could you? All in a politically correct manner with appropriate credits. Where did you copy the text from ???

    Fly – zzzz :-) – Life is shorter for insects.

    Dimitri – I really wonder what drives you? Honestly – you seem to be a decent man but have fallen for some sort of phobia. I could possibly name it but you would consider it as an attack?

    ALL
    You all have too much time on your hands – talking, and talking, and talking.
    Spare David, spare your own selves … Rules have been made before we came, before Burn was born. If there were rules, Insects like Fly would not be able to even say a thing. Be grateful. If you can’t then ignore.

    Is this all about “what you say” and “how not to say it”? I’ll talk your own language that is simple enough for anyone on this site to understand – do you shoot JPEG? Or RAW?

    And when you have the answer, draw the analogy – Panos is THE RAW. I know him – you don’t. Don’t make it more than it is for yourself.
    If something is crap – it is crap. But you want the crap to be called with its chemical formula that varies from person to person and types of food consumption. Crap is crap – said straight or not.

    Daria – you are beautiful. Your photos are beautiful. And most importantly, you are a beautiful soul to tolerate this.

    David, Anton

    Can we add 2 fake buttons on the bottom of the site? One for “Resignations” and another for “Punch ____”

    Hugs you all. good night

  • Rafal Pruszynski
    April 8, 2009 at 4:57 am

    Haik, excuse me? What announcement? What are you talking about? Crap is crap, you called it. We agree about panos’ attitude then.

  • Rafal Pruszynski
    April 8, 2009 at 4:59 am

    As far as name calling I see you come from the same place Panos does. I wont name it because, well, lets keep the standards high despite some trying to drag them down.

  • Dimitri
    April 8, 2009 at 6:01 am

    Haik, I really don’t know what to make of your question to me. The question should rather be, why don’t MANY MORE people on this forum step in and speak up when they witness such brutal and gratuitous abuse being constantly perpetrated before their very eyes. When even one’s motivation in taking a stand against rudeness and intolerance has to be attributed to some kind of “phobia”, it’s a sad, sad world we (or rather, you, Haik) live in indeed.

    (For the record, I myself really liked Daria’s photo for the kind of genre it belongs to. So as far as the actual assessment of the photo is concerned, I was in fact in agreement with Panos and disagreeing with the people he was slandering. But there are ways and ways of disagreeing.)

    By the way, why don’t YOU, Haik, reveal your identity to this forum?

  • audrey bardou
    April 8, 2009 at 6:06 am

    I have the impression that you ask for a “witch-hunt”… I cannot approve it…

    I’m sometimes sad for the lack of respect for photographers and their work… but I am for the freedom of expression…

  • A Fly (on the Wall)
    April 8, 2009 at 8:41 am

    Bodo,

    You make a good point, and I am doing what I think I should now (just to get this on the record) but I have many other productive things I need to be doing rather than trying to argue civility here, which is hopeless. And slogging through the muck here is a real bring down for me. And seriously, it would be kind of embarrassing to be associated with all this nastiness. Thanks though.

    Haik,

    No, it’s about being infantile and mean. It’s also about the success or failure of this project. I’m suggesting that the harassment and hazing, and the fact that the audience condones it is a fundamental and limiting problem here. I understand the idea of total freedom (which is, of course, a myth) might seem like a worthy goal, but it must be tempered with responsibility for one’s words and actions, and respect for other people. I understand you may not find these ideas pleasant or helpful, these are “grown-up” ideas, I hope you’ll understand someday.

    Look at yourself, even your own humor is tinged with adolescent violence.

    Dimitri,

    Yes, I wonder that myself.

    Ms. Bardou,

    Why is a call for civility a witch hunt? You condone harassment and hazing? Are you a proponent of viciousness? Do you think people should have no responsibility for what they say or do? It sounds to me like you are in the bubble. I know what I’m asking is difficult, but try to see Burn as someone outside would see it.

    There is no freedom of expression on Burn because the childish nonsense is a filter and a censor in itself! Why you can’t see that baffles me. The fact that you don’t understand that true freedom requires respect for other people and personal responsibility is so, so sad.

    Mr. Harvey,

    I just had this one thought…. I was making this one assumption: that you and the community want Burn to grow, mature and prosper. Maybe I’m totally wrong, and everyone is just happy to keep things just as they are. And that may be the impetus for all this unpleasantness, to keep outsiders like myself out.

    But, to grow or be taken seriously outside your immediate circle, I think you’re going to have to deal with this problem at some point. Again, maybe that’s not the goal.

    You know, too, there is a well-documented constellation of behaviors related to substance abuse that seem to fit Panos. I’m making no judgements, but just to go on the record, that might be an avenue to pursue for insight, when the time comes. There is also the idea that those around the substance abuser are co-dependent, with all that goes with that, the manipulations and enabling, and so on. I’m suggesting you think about that, see how that feels, see if it makes any sense in your personal relationship with Panos.

    You preach freedom over everything, but not respect for your fellow man or personal responsibility. Do you think these are mutually exclusive ideals? If not, it certainly looks to me like the rest of your tribe could use those lessons…

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 8:50 am

    BODO…

    of course you are quite right and , as Haik says, you are a man of heart…the comments part of BURN should of course be monitored by YOU…all of YOU….and i think that is what is happening right now..some of your friends who have “left” have done so for personal reasons having nothing to do with BURN…many write to me privately and many will return when they can….

    FLY…ALL

    you are articulate and clear…many thanks….

    a lot of the responsibility for hijacking however must surely fall on more than the one man who is now being “voted off the island”….

    after all, his original attack under Daria’s photograph was against someone he thought was attacking her…the responsibility for hijacking discussion on Daria’s photograph now falls on many of us….

    i have never read an attack by Panos towards the photographer whose work was being presented, with the one exception of Michael Hassoun who was being chastised not for his photography, but for representing a military system…as i recall, the military , all military, was under attack…an anti-military missive is not so unusual among critical writing citizenry worldwide…. by the way, i will be working with Michael this month behind the scenes to help him produce his next essay…he is a “large man” , an intelligent man, and countered brilliantly all written “attack”…..

    i am NOT now defending Panos’ sometimes inappropriate rants…i have NEVER defended his late night rants personally….how could i know what he is about to say?? …how could i possibly even read all of them???…i am being somehow blamed for enabling Panos just because i felt his WORK would eventually have a real net WORTH…i was critiquing WORK for heavens sake….work/photographs….is it really my responsibility to then follow through on every egocentric personality on this forum and somehow monitor their behavior public or otherwise??? because i endorsed some aspect of the “RESULT” of Panos’ madness, am i contributing to more of same?? i think you would say yes…and others would as well…ok, point taken….

    HOWEVER, speaking of hijacking or “off track”, let’s look now at the comments….i posted late last night the environmental piece by Carlan Tapp….there are now 4 comments under that story, ALL about the story…there are however right now at least 12 comments hijacking Daria’s photograph blasting Panos for blasting!!!…shouldn’t those same writers (you included) be commenting on either Yulia’s Cosmos piece or Carlan’s wake up call on an environmental disaster???

    am i not to be judged by the stories published??? can i not please be judged by the photographers who i spend so much time with to allow them to speak as authors?? you are putting a lot of weight on the comments and not much on the content and the long term mentoring which is where i spend so much time…if not, then it would certainly behoove me not to have any online presence whatsoever….i can do my own photography, work personally with those who seek mentoring, and put new shingles on my house which are in need of repair….

    i mean really, who needs this?? i am not creating a “product for sale”, nor do i receive income from BURN..quite the contrary as it should be obvious….however, i have now been given the responsibility of not only mentoring and creating content for BURN but for the psychodrama that will always be inherent in a public forum…..there have been quite a few very intelligent pieces written on “blog management”….and most “blog managers” just give up with the impossibility of it…as did Alec Soth who just could not deal with the drama that even started invading his personal life…for me, it has mostly been a pleasure i must say…i have met so many of the writers here over the last three years and the rewards have way outstripped the negatives….

    however, the only way out of this is to: (a) as demure Audrey says, go on a “witch hunt” (b) censor comments (c) close down comments entirely under the photographs (d) close down BURN and view it as a life “experiment”….

    Magnum does have a full time person who monitors comments on their blog….comments are held briefly to eliminate UFO’s and inappropriate rants…pure dissent is of course welcomed….i do not have such a person, nor do i have the time nor the inclination to do this…

    Fly, i think you may have misconstrued what i was saying about the 99% who do not write….99% will never write no matter how the conversation goes…this is pretty much a fixed number in all of publishing….this BURN 99% is however growing by 30% every month, so i doubt that the comments are making any difference one way or the other to interested photographers/readers …

    so, while some commenters may “leave” other readers who will never want to write are arriving….and the numbers of submissions i receive every day from names who are not identified as writers here are staggering….these are photographers first, writers second…

    i see all the names of all who submit work here…few are commenters…

    well, just look at who i have PUBLISHED in the last posts…EVER SEEN ANY OF THEM COMMENT HERE???

    the 99% NOT WRITING are very often OUT PHOTOGRAPHING and submitting and participating in the best possible way….

    having said all of this (and i guess i went on a bit of a rant myself..laughing..sorry) of course i would prefer a “clean well lighted place” all around…Bodo has implored you to stick around and help..giving YOU some of the responsibility..i would implore you to do the same..and to please comment on the stories (which you have not done) and not just on bad boy Panos…i think the attacks on our bad boy might just be more “enabling” than my endorsement of his work….but, i am not a psychiatrist….

    more importantly Fly, i would wish that you show some work and drop your UFO mask …..a mask is a mask is a mask….a “hiding”…many of the writers here show us their work…this is the point of BURN…as Bodo said, for you the audience to be the producers of BURN…

    now see, you are enabled!!!

    again, many thanks for taking the time to think clearly and write….as you know, i read…i listen….

    cheers, david

  • erica mcdonald
    April 8, 2009 at 9:10 am

    DAH..

    It’s really good to hear that burn is mostly a pleasure for you..as it should be. Certainly other people’s psychodramas are not your responsibility, and it is rather pathetic that some people can’t pull themselves together to act as positive forces here..Still, I was just talking last night after the Antonin K. talk with another photographer/burn friend, and we were musing that it would help facilitate a “clean well lighted place” if you could write just a few sentences about each of the pieces of work you show here. I know how pressed your time is, but I (we) think the time you would spend in doing that would be well worth the investment, as it would set the tone for thoughtful, respectful response..

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 9:21 am

    ERICA…

    now, that is a constructive idea….it has been suggested before, but i have not done it being afraid that it would illicit less than candid response…but, let me give it a try…..many thanks amiga…

    cheers, david

  • erica mcdonald
    April 8, 2009 at 9:48 am

    DAH..

    looking forward..not only to the possibility of a little more peace in the house but also to reading your thoughts on the publishing of any given piece. hopefully candor will thrive in an intelligent way that ripples outward from your own..

    half thought you might show for a beer last night..sort of surprised at how few people showed up, half king is a great intimate setting to hear photographers talk about their work..

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 8, 2009 at 9:52 am

    just one suggestion David…if it is somehow possible to open a separate ‘Discussions’ forum (on the right hand column) where you can transfer/shift the comments (including this comment of mine) which are not related to the photograph/essay so that when we are pressed for time, we just can go through the comments under the photograph/essay and leave and when we have time, we can go through what’s going on in the Discussions forum and poke our dirty noses inside :P and throw muds at each other (that’s fun, really). It really takes a lot of time to go through these general discussions and it will be fair to the photographer/essayist also. Only a very brave photographer would want to send the link of his/her published work on burn to any prospective client/publisher/grandmother if the comment that pops up under it is something like (just for example, no personal attack intended)
    RAPE ME
    RAPE ME
    RAPE ME…

    laughing… :-D

    Bodo

  • erica mcdonald
    April 8, 2009 at 10:02 am

    Or bodo, one suggestion to ALL with regard to your comment..

    there is always a discussion thread (whatever is recent under DIALOGUE)..put the non photo/ essay related comment there WHEN YOU WRITE IT..I don’t see how Anton is to sift through everyone’s comments..of course I am not doing that now, but it seems that Daria’s thread has “taken one for the team”..

    and thanks for that Daria..

  • bodo (subhrajit)
    April 8, 2009 at 10:08 am

    True Erica true, I stand corrected.

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 10:33 am

    ERICA…

    i just could not take another social situation, although i would love to have seen Antonin…i was “off the grid” yesterday , still recovering from sunday…..

    yes, poor Daria did “take it” for no reason…however, there was some very good discussion too before everything went sideways….

    BODO…

    yes, we have that with Dialogue…for us to transfer comments is impractical ….an “off the photograph” comment is supposed to go into Dialogue as it now stands…may do now use it that way…

    cheers, david

  • Tommy Huynh
    April 8, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Shock collars, it’s the only way.

  • Lassal
    April 8, 2009 at 10:53 am

    ERICA …
    I’ll be leaving a comment for you under Dialogue/spring cleaning …
    :o)
    cheers,
    Lassal

  • A Fly (on the Wall)
    April 8, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Dear Mr. Harvey,

    Thanks very much for hearing me out, and for the invitation to stick around… but I do feel like I’ve overstayed my welcome. Maybe I send you a photo or two one of these days, I have some exciting (for me) things bubbling away… which is where my attention belongs…

    How did Lord of the Flies end again??? I should know this…

    tat-ta… buzzing off for real…

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 11:38 am

    FLY….

    yes i believe in freedom of speech…yes i believe in civility towards my colleagues and all humans….not mutually exclusive concepts among civilized mature adults..when have i “preached” otherwise? (liking someone’s work, does not mean i like their behavior)..freedom AND civility is certainly my mantra, and that is how i live…as you, i wish others would do the same…we are going around in circles a bit here, because i absolutely do not disagree with what you say…i am just trying trying to figure out how to make that happen…i think all societies large and small grapple with this very issue….unfortunately history proves that in the larger societies someone decides what is “right” and then and then, well we know what happens….”purity” becomes “dogma” becomes “totalitarianism”…..

    you paint a bit more of a dismal picture here than what i feel exists and you have ignored my statements about what BURN actually is doing (maybe we posted simultaneous)..BURN is being defined by submissions which are growing by leaps….you cannot seem to get away from this one person who must have attacked you at some point, hence the mask…this just cannot be an impersonal overview treatise on your part…and, had i been attacked at some point, i would feel as do you..so, i am not dismissing your concerns, but merely trying to put them in realistic context…

    yes, of course, it is quite obvious that substance abuse has played a part in all of this…admitted many times by said party right here in the comments…..i once spent several months in a rehab house with “recovering” drug addicts and alcoholics doing a photo essay…at first, i was impressed with the program..everybody was going to “do better”, make a new life….honest about their addiction and willing to now “take a step forward”…after a couple of weeks i became disheartened, when i realized that few can recover…the young woman i had photographed so much and who was a shining example of recovery died from a heroin overdose about two weeks after i published her picture as a shining example of this program……even recently, when i was shooting a similar piece, the doctors and officials in charge told me frankly that “recovery” from addiction is somewhere around 7% of those who give it a try…pretty close to futile….so, to answer you…yes, i know…..do i know what to do about it? no…nor do the professionals evidently…

    if you want to send me an e-mail privately please do so ……david@burnmagazine.org…..i will maintain strict confidence…we share the same concerns….

    cheers, david

  • john Gladdy
    April 8, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    David. I know,personally, HUNDREDS that have recovered from horrendous drug/alcohol addictions. I did the rehab thing many years ago, and got it[ and I was way way out there]. Still have it. Most who were in there with me didnt. Quite a few are dead now. BUT..Lots do get it and 7% of several million is still a big enough number for it NOT to be futile. I would Like to see the essay you did on this.
    RE The whole comments thing: I think its largely to do with the way blogs work. In a ,non cyber, social situation we all have conversations/debates/arguments/jokes that get passionate and heated etc, but when we are done so are they. There is no stenographer transcribing every word for later perusal. Here there is. EVERYTHING we say here remains here to be pored over ad nauseum. So all arguments and debate never finish, there is always a last word to add. A price we have to pay I guess.
    It has made me think.
    John

  • abele quaregna
    April 8, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Audrey

    I fully second your opinion: I feel this place quite the opposite of “childish”. I feel that most people here are acting as adults (i.e. taking responsibility for what one writes/shoots/shows) and I don’t think burn is under a “vicious” dictatorship. Just my 2 eurocent.

  • Herve
    April 8, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    how many times herve to we have to talk about my style of writing…ok, done done done…
    ———————————

    Just to show you how it feels, Bob, because you yourself said that you were reacted not an opinion; but how it was said, ie. the “language”. here we write no NY times editorial, a bit free for all instead.

    so a lot of stuff might come up a bit quippy; a bit abrupt, yet, we should not pay too much attention to it.

    These quips, I do think it is useless, to the site or to the photographer entired, to write them, either to laud it or to dismiss it. Yes, it’s part of the way many particiapte in forums on the internet, so be it. I rather am more interested in allayed opinions.

    It seemed addressed to me, but I never mentionned anything about Daria’s physical appearance, BTW….

    abck soonest or rather: je reviens bientôt. :-)

  • bblack
    April 8, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Herve :)))…please do not worry…re-read my comment above (i love u man!)…and i know i was upset this weekend, but please do not worry…u are right, my writing style is way too ‘combative’ even though i dont mean it…please dont worry, i will really write differently…i mean, long but hopefully, not so, obnoxiously or patronizingly toward others ;)))….ok, sent u an email….i totally agree wityh your tactics: :))…ok, running home…late, b :))

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    JOHN….

    my apology…”futile” was a bad word choice…you are right 7% of whatever number you want to put out there means some do make it ….so pleased you are one of them….i just meant to say that the 7% was so much lower than what i fantasized or imagined given the apparent 100% enthusiasm for recovery going in..thanks for putting this in perspective…

    i shot this essay in b&w for the Richmond (Va,) Times Dispatch and i doubt i have a copy of the story in the newspaper..but, i should and will scan these prints which i still have and make a link for you…Rubicon was the name of the rehab house…a live-in facility ….

    cheers, david

  • david alan harvey
    April 8, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    DIMITRI…

    Haik is really Haik…he was a student of mine in Los Angeles just as you were in New York…he is a flat out great guy, mostly proud of his family….all he wants to show you for his portfolio are pictures of his kids…that is who Haik is….

    cheers, david

  • R Nolly
    April 8, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    DAVID;

    Throughout all of this bun fight the person I feel the most sorry for is poor Daria. Her moment in the sun has been tarnished by back biting, nastiness and hidden agendas.

    Hopefully she realises that not everybody in the photo world is the same. She is young and I feel she has a real talent, I just hope she won’t be put off by the rants.

    I feel many more people would comment, but don’t want to get jumped on if they don’t see the same way as some of the others. Some are just more sensitive than others.

    Actually; I really miss Jim’s comments. I always felt they were a good counterpoint to many of the others comments here. Did I agree with all he said? Hell, no! But I’ve met plenty of other editors who were as “to the point” as him. When you are busy and get used to talking “straight up” then you tend to do it in real life too. And as you know, it seems much harsher in print.

    I log onto Burn about three times a day, but now skip most of the comments. I check out the images and read your posts and those of the people I respect. I don’t often post because my IP address is blocked as spam anyway, so only post from the library (today) or from the folks place.

    I suppose the concept of treating people as you would like to be treated would solve all the world’s problems. Maybe I’m too much of a dinosaur or too “old school” to understand why people take joy out of upsetting and hurting others.

    Many of us work hard, and are out photographing/working as much as possible, but just get on with life and don’t need to tell everyone about it.

    David; if you answer this and don’t get a reply it’s just that I’m back home and my comments will be getting spammed again!

    Most of all; congratulations Daria on your fine image.

    Cheers

  • Haik
    April 8, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    Thank you, David !

    Dimitri – here is a hand for you.
    http://haiko.net/burn/hand.jpg – my real hand holding my real baby.

    email is m-e-s-r-o-p-i-a-n at g-m-a-i-l wiht no dashes.

    cheers

  • dimitri
    April 8, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    thanks for that info on Haik’s behalf, David, I appreciate your taking the trouble.

    be well

  • andrew b
    April 9, 2009 at 12:50 am

    My goodness.

    I just spent a most wonderful evening with Mr. Black and Mr. Berube at a most intriguing local establishment with music and beverage diversions (see live comment dictated by Bob, transcribed by Mike, via my phone under the latest “dialogue thread, where we *all* nshould head whenever we just want to chat)

    and I am now in my hotel happy that I was able to circumnavigate myslef back without undue lostness. And I read this much of the above, and quite honestly, while I know passions are engaged and some hearts are honest, i think simply “what rubbish”.

    I will not name names. But if you do not like a particular person’s posting, and you *know* you don’t, DON”T READ IT! I’ll provide a helpful hint – their name will be at the top of the post.

    I will admit (bob, you know I love you man, you got 4 extra hugs before I could even walk to my car) sometimes I don’t read bob’s posts. They’re too long and dense, and I save them for later. Sometimes i don’t come back to them.

    But people, GET REAL. To insult our host because he allows everyone to say what they want, to say that some people’s words are not acceptable…well……all I can say is ….IF YOU DON”T LIKE IT, Why. Are. You. Here. ????

    Burn is Burn, It will be. or it won’t. I hope it will, and I will do what I can to help and make it prosper. But c’mon, all…whining about peopls posts?? If ou don’t like it, ignore it. don’t dignify that whaich you disapprove with response.

    Some people rant. some people must wave their arms and hands while they talk, and if you hold them still, they suddenly become mute. some people take a great while to gather their thoughts, and provide them in a nice, linear, progressive, organized way. Some people start out organized, have a glass of wine, and then get stuck fguring out which way to push a button. Some of us simply want to swing from the chandalier and sip wine and drink in the humanity in the room below us. To each, I say, their own….except those who simply want to gripe that someone is not conforming to *their* standards, and must be disciplined. if all you can do here is gripe and complain, then you are NOT contributing….

    do good. be good.

    now….back to your regularly scheduled programming.

    Daria, you still out there? What do *you* think? After all, this is *your* thread……

    with wishes of great light to all, and subtle promises of some sort of postings of images from tonight, if they aren’t all completely wonky…I am…

    andrew b

    P

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