Comments on: david rochkind – heavy hand, sunken spirit https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/ burn is an online feature for emerging photographers worldwide. burn is curated by magnum photographer david alan harvey. Wed, 07 Sep 2016 08:29:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.2.4 By: Jason_Houge https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-78939 Sun, 07 Nov 2010 03:38:11 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-78939 I saw this yesterday – missed my typo

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By: Jason_Houge https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-78938 Sun, 07 Nov 2010 03:37:46 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-78938 David Rochkind – I this at the Museum of Contemporary Photography in Chicago just yesterday – Nice edit and you’re among other really nice photo essays there. Congratulations, Jason

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By: marco https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-72148 Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:30:22 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-72148 good work, this is photojournalism

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By: Andrew Gray https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70947 Sat, 05 Jun 2010 05:05:51 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70947 I hadn’t had a chance to view this work, and then I stumbled on David and his work at Review Santa Fe, at a public viewing this evening. I came back to register my comments here. These prints really stood out in my mind as I drove home. I can’t recall how many photos I saw that aren’t shown here, but the police photos were only a subset. Besides the quality of the work itself, what caught my attention were the human images and how close the photographer got to the subjects. Although the total picture is grim and violent, this work (at least what I saw) was multi-faceted. I can’t imagine how much time and labor has gone into the project. It’s an important body of work, and it’s probably getting better. I’d probably second those wanting to see some other dimensions of life “behind the lines.” People must dance and play… I hope, David, you’re encouraged by all the postive reactions and DAH’s generous praise and prodding.

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By: Frostfrog https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70731 Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:52:28 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70731 Here I am, still delayed at Fairbanks International and so finally I had the time to view your excellent essay and to read the captions. It absolutely needs the captions. Viewing this without this background information would be a most frustrating experience for me.

It takes me back to the fall of 1969, when I was 19 and wound up in the Juarez prison for a couple of days with a returned Mormon missionary who had served in Boliva and a 35-year old gambler-grifter who had come to our apartment at BYU to get him so that he could serve as an interpreter on the trip, which was intended to end up in Mexico City. I weaseled my way along, just for the adventure. The Mexican authorities had captured two tons of marijuana from a truck that had gotten stuck in the Rio Grande and they needed some Americans to arrest and the three of us were handy.

It was horrid in that prison. We spent part of our time in a tiny room with about 20 juveniles, many under the age of 10, and a middle-aged man said to have murdered his brother-in-law the day before. There was one toilet for all of us and it did not flush.

The food was inedible, but they did allow street vendors to come in and sell us burritos and I ate one that left me stoned for about two hours. They put us on the TV and the front pages of all the newspapers and we were very famnous throughout the city after we got out. Everybody wondered how much we bribed the officials to get out, but it was a tough-talking American Consulate from Texas who twisted the arms of the Mexican to let go three Americans who everybody knew had nothing to do with any of it.

Anyway, to me, it was always a great adventure, especially after I got out. It gave me a good story to tell and I have told it many times.

It is sobering to look at your pictures and see the hell that this ever-deteriorating situation has evolved into for so many.

I hope to see more of your work in the future.

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By: DavidRochkind https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70663 Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:26:59 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70663 I wanted to let those who are interested know that captions have been posted. I expect that critiques will remain, but I hope that the captions help to better explain my point of view and the shape of the project. Thank you again to everyone who has taken the time to look at and comment on the series, and to those who have offered their points of view and words of encouragement. I am happy that there has been a dialogue not only about the pictures, but also about the current situation in Mexico. Again, I hope you will continue to follow the project.

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By: Scott Bennett https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70658 Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:50:00 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70658 Dear David,

I was instantly engaged by such a spirited discussion concerning your work. This is actually my first time commenting on a burn photo essay, although I have followed many of the essays and discussions since the page’s inception, albeit as a semi-lurker. So, you have brought me out of the woodwork, you could say. I teach Spanish and Latin American culture and literature, but have had a passion for photography since high school. I have also lived in the Borderlands (San Diego/Tijuana) for almost thirty years. I am always intrigued at how people can quickly mention “must reads” and “must sees” for those engaging in artistically expressive activities. Such is the case with Bowden’s “Murder City.” I do agree that this book is a definite eye-opener about the realities in Ciudad Juárez, and could help you gain perspective about the current context of that city, but I think spending time at the border and experiencing it for yourself could be even more productive. The other book mentioned, Bolaño’s “2666,” is much less accessible, since it’s around a thousand pages long. You might check out Luis Alberto Urrea…he has many books about the Borderlands that would help with gaining perspective, such as “The Devil’s Highway,” “Across the Wire,” and even “By the Lake of Sleeping Children.” John Annerino’s “Dead in their Tracks” gives a photojournalist’s take on the border crossing experience. I was surprised that nobody mentioned the work of LA Times PJ Don Bartletti, who has documented the Borderlands for over 25 years. The LA Times has a special section titled “Mexico Under Siege: The Drug War at our Doorstep” in which Bartletti has more than a few moving photo essays of the same subject:

http://projects.latimes.com/mexico-drug-war/#/its-a-war

I was lucky to meet Bartletti and have him come to my university to do a talk about his photos and Pulitzer-prize winning work for “Enrique’s Journey”…another great read for anyone interested in border/immigration issues. What makes Bartletti great is that he doesn’t just “parachute in” and get out…he knows the borderlands and has committed his life to documenting the area.

To be honest, the fact that you know Spanish and have lived in Latin America for an extended period of time…and that you had the connections to get a ride-along with the police…show that your tenacity can pay off. I was impressed by the closeness and in-your-face feel of such shots as 3, 4, 7, 11, 12, and yes, even 13, blood and all. I did read your response to the criticism concerning your artist statement (i.e. lack of captions, of being a bit all-encompassing etc.) I tend to agree with Kathleen Fonseca about the shots of the prostitutes…and for me, possibly the pigeons flying…but you have some technically wonderful shots that capture some heart-wrenching subject matter…and you had the guts to go out and get them…so kudos to you! Keep up the good work…get those captions going…and just be careful!

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By: Matt McInnis https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70607 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 13:13:05 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70607 This has been a great discussion, and after four months of being too busy to keep up to date with Burn, it is a great reminder of the importance of this community.
These images are very strong and do justice to an important part of this story. I don’t believe, like others who have posted, that the photographs you took depict the police as the good guys.. or even that the photos create a dichotomy between the arrested and arrester.. I don’t feel that by gaining access with the police you had some inherent bias towards them.. but I also don’t feel like you photographed them as they ought to be photographed in an essay about a drug war in Mexico. I’m left wanting a couple photographs dedicated to the police, something that tells a backstory through the tone of the photo, something subtle with the feeling that it gives the viewer, more than the shoot it as it is brutality of the situations you’ve witnessed.. I’m looking for photos depicting the ways the average Mexican community is effected.. not at the scene of the violence, not at night on the streets or in bars with prostitutes. In such a devoutly Catholic society, how does spirituality play into his violence, what happens at church? do the rich hire body guards? are the poor locking themselves in at night?
I want captions. Is image 19 one of police officers off-duty? normal guys having a beer? gang members? Too much is left unsaid.
This is an amazing start to a much needed essay, and if you can get these shots, I think you can get the other half of the story.
Congrats on the publication.

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By: Gustav Liliequist https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70583 Tue, 01 Jun 2010 02:30:03 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70583 Much has been said above. At the end of the day it’s a great series. Congratulations.

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By: Manuel Garcia https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70566 Mon, 31 May 2010 20:07:09 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70566 Congratulations David! this an inspiring piece of work,, to DAH obviously this makes so clear why I didnt get mine publish!! .. compelling keep them coming please

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By: Gracie https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70516 Sun, 30 May 2010 09:31:43 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70516 this discussion as it has ran has made me come out of my hole but has left me scratching my head.

so… in order to tell a story, and accurately that is, the most perfect way would be for the story to be your own. so you can flesh it out and present it the way it has been. the way you lived it.

but if you stuck out like a sore thumb, it might gain you a pass to a force field of some protection. and a certain viewpoint or another perspective of the truth right before you. but what if you dont (stick out like a sore thumb), do you get more access? will you be maimed, mistaken for a local, or someone deeply involved? does the camera or a badge protect you?

so comes right back to responsibility in reportage as has been argued here before… but how can you report it all (or accurately – by whoever’s definition of accurate) if your eyes have a filmy gauze over it or your heart has no emotional investment? or you see too much it affects you or if you are too involved?

all rhetorical questions, all not needing answers… thanks, i have learned a lot from your pictures since im no photographer.

all i can say is ‘know when to cut and run’ but doesnt it get better when you get right at the end?

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By: peter grant https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70466 Sat, 29 May 2010 07:31:58 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70466 Hi DAH.

Your point with David is so important for all of us. I get very confused with editorial questions. Just deciding between two similar images let alone honing the body of work down to an essay. I feel I get seduced by my own work seeing relevance in an image purely because I was there, an emotional pull not wanting to let go, intruding on editorial decisions.
Got a lot out of what you just wrote. Thanks.

Peter.

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By: kathleen fonseca https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70451 Sat, 29 May 2010 01:17:51 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70451 David R.

Thank you for your response, both in tone and content. You are correct that my objections lie not in the content but in the generic viewpoint that they imply (i.e. that really the same photos could be identitifed with anywhere in, at the very least, Central America) and that they resound with the costs and consequences of a drug war not in powerful emotional and psychological terms but general and cliché. A photo of a prostitute could be: 1)just a photo of a prostitute, 2)a suggestion that money sent from the USA provides Mexican residents with more disposable income for ¨extras¨, 3) that lots of drug money in the economy means lots of work for prostitutes, 4)that society and values are compromised as the result of the drug trade, 4) a machista culture demeans women, 5) boys just want to have fun, 5) the photographer got to go to a bordello. So what did you mean? i don´t see any more about this girl. I don´t know her story. I don´t know why she´s a prostitute. Or if these guys are narcos. Her story begins and ends with that photograph. I am uncomfortable drawing my own conclusions because the photo is a graphic representation of prostitution. It´s not conceptual, it´s not suggestive, it´s definitive. But beyond that, what are YOU trying to say with this photo in regard to the drug war?

People in the USA/Europe might take your photos at face value based on the title of your essay because they have absolutely zero idea what goes on at night on the streets of Mexico City. They see the bloodshed, the prostitutes, the police activity and they say, ¨Yup, this is what a drug war in Mexico looks like¨. And maybe it is. But while these same scenes play out nightly in much of Latin America and have played out on the streets of Mexico as well for generations and while much of the crime involved is the direct result of drug use it is not necessarily the result of a drug war. There IS a difference and your essay must get to the heart of that difference either strictly through your photographs or in some other way. Personally i would really love it if your story could be told using only photos, especially without captions, because it would mean they were that good, that definitive, that powerful, that heartbreaking. It would mean that, (as suggested by Imants) that your message could be gleaned by most of us through the visuals alone. And i don´t mean using traditional PJ techniques necessarily. If you have not seen the movie, ¨Ciudades Oscuras¨, then i recommend it. The visuals drag us straight through the gutters of Mexico at night. Nothing needed to be specifically spelled out because the rot and decay and dysfunction could practically be smelled by the viewer. (i advise you to check it out, Imants). Not for nothing, just for inspiration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3NcnmTT9G4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJDBN5Tl61g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWOgS72KW4

Good luck David, please be safe, or if you can´t be safe then know when to cut and run. I hope to hell you submit a version of this essay that tells the story more completely. I personally look very much forward to seeing it.

Best
Kathleen

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By: keithyviet https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70422 Fri, 28 May 2010 20:07:57 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70422 Jamie:
“ironic t-shirt leading off the list” What is ironic about the t-shirt? Could you explain?
Keith Dannemiller

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By: Brian Frank https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70419 Fri, 28 May 2010 17:42:20 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70419 David,

I can’t help but draw comparisons between this work and Brian Frank’s (not me, the very talented L.A.-based photographer) work for WSJ. It could have been a retread, but it actually holds up nicely in comparison. Love the color and respect the effort of getting embedded in such a difficult situation. Can’t wait to see more. Be safe.

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By: DavidRochkind https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70409 Fri, 28 May 2010 14:52:34 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70409 There is a discrepancy between my statement and the work. I should have been more careful about that. I also should have stated that this is an ongoing and evolving project. I would like to draw people’s attention to the following images: 1, 4 , 5 , 6 , 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. These are all photos that fall outside of the “police box”, and represent a little less than half of the essay. One of the things I find interesting about this story is that the emotion of many scenes are similar; a picture of migration may make you feel the same as a picture of a prisoner. I believe that this helps get the point across, albeit not in a didactic way, that the issues Mexico is facing permeate the entire culture. Without captions it is difficult (impossible) to differentiate between scenes or know precisely what is happening in the image. In a story of this complexity, especially given my intent to blur the lines, it is imperative to be able to differentiate and know. Ultimately, I am the one responsible for how my work is presented, making it my fault that there are no captions. I hope to work with the burn staff to get them up there.

The internet , indeed, is not a testing ground. It is the primary outlet for reaching a vast audience. It offers us access to an unprecedented audience, and offers viewers access to an unprecedented amount of work. As I said, ultimately, we all must take responsibility for our work and how it is presented. I should have taken more care in the presentation of my work, the relationship between the statement and essay, and the publication of captions with the photos.

While I may not agree with all of the criticisms, I have found them helpful. And I have appreciated the tone as well, as it has never been personal and has always been about the work. I want to again thank people for taking the time to consider the work.

I do think that the major issues here are one of presentation, and not content. I hope people will remain interested in the project. In the future you can expect more care in how it is presented which will result in a piece that not only matches my intent, but also better shows the Mexican conflict in all of its complexity.

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By: david alan harvey https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70398 Fri, 28 May 2010 11:17:59 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70398 DAVID ROCHKIND..

your response to the critiques above shows us all that you are indeed a class act…able to take criticism for what it is and move on…and all can see that you are a talented photojournalist as well…

but, i must say David in all honesty that i was confused when you said:

“The edit shown on burn is the same edit that was submitted to the Anthropographia Award for Human Rights and Photography. This edit represents a fraction of the entire project. This specific edit does perhaps gravitate too strongly towards gore to accurately represent some of the other elements I discuss in the project statement. I do think the statement is an accurate representation of the story I am telling as a whole, and agree that captions and more pictures would go a long way to fulfilling what I promise in the statement. I agree that this presentation does not tell the complete story; captions, multimedia or essay are certainly needed to accurately represent what is happening in Mexico. The selection here is not intended to reflect my entire project. The overall project does contain many of the elements that people have suggested be included (captions, writing, interviews).”

so David, i am very curious about when and where you would indeed decide to reveal the “whole story” that you said you have already shot that would, as you claim, flesh out the visuals to more closely match your headline…since you have indeed done all of this, and must have more pictures outside the immediate “police box”, and agree that captions are needed, where in the world are you planning to share all of this material that you have risked your life to gather?

since we do reach out to an international audience and many mainstream editors are going to see this here, as well as every Magnum, VII, and all other agency photographers, i would imagine you just might consider this the right time to tell your “whole story” and put your 100% best foot forward…..if this is not the right time, when is the right time? maybe i should have played super private detective and asked if you had even more, but the assumption from those of us who screen submissions for Burn have to assume a few things…most particularly that the photographer has included everything that he/she has done that is relevant to the very journalistic story he/she is trying to tell/represent…i did ask Germana (one of our picture editors), who i know you worked with on this,”did David give us captions?”…she said “no”…at this point i have to assume that no is no…and yet you acknowledge that captions would have made the story more complete…pretty basic journalism 101….right? ok, i think you get my point…

a photographer with your talent needs to be very very careful with your work and your words…you must manage your pictures/stories with great care…if you think or know you are going to be published somewhere, you had better make damn well sure that there are no leaks in the boat…

if you are not sure about something, all you have to do is either call or write….everyone knows i can be accessed by photographers easily and if you do not know this , then you have not done your homework….

the internet is not a testing ground anymore…it is THE ground…and with Burn and other internet sites getting ready to finance projects and pay for publication, then i think it is time to consider this the real thing…

i am very impressed with your work…if i was not, i would not have published it, nor would i have written this hopefully constructive missive….

please visit me when you are next in new york…

cheers, david

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By: gaetano belverde https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70397 Fri, 28 May 2010 10:56:05 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70397 Stunning!
Wordeful reportage: crude facts full of Pathos… well done

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By: michael webster https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70393 Fri, 28 May 2010 09:48:52 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70393 David R, very good response. I know it’s gotta suck to do such great work and then get this kind of criticism. Hopefully, you’ll find something in it that makes you stronger.

BTW, I meant to mention the color palette earlier. On that score, I think you did an excellent job of using color and capturing a true feel of the region. It really brought back memories.

And honestly, I’m not his agent and get no commission, but I really want to know if you’ve read Bowden, particularly Murder City (I doubt it was published when you did the work, but much of what’s in it he has written about in other works (see this article in Harper’s (subscription required))).

I’d understand if you wanted to avoid him in order to see the situation first with your own eyes, and there’s also a danger of Bowden’s work introducing an element of fear, which can make a very dangerous situation much more so, but at some point you simply must read him. And if you’re going to continue pursuing this, you might consider speaking with him as well. I’m sure he’d find your work interesting.

Unfortunately, your essay caught me about two thirds through Murder City and by the time you are two thirds through Murder City, any positive depiction of the Mexican army or police may well make you scream. Not that there aren’t heroic policeman in Mexico, it’s just that most of them are dead or in hiding, in Ciudad Juarez anyway.

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By: Mike R https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/05/david-rochkind-heavy-hand-sunken-spirit/#comment-70378 Fri, 28 May 2010 07:29:23 +0000 http://www.burnmagazine.org/?p=6236#comment-70378 David, thanks for the reply.

Mike.

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