American Dreams
This series is a complex, anthropological tour through the landscape of the indigenous Central American — by means of memory, spirituality, longing and isolation. Lives are concentrated with a vibrancy, an intensity of being that many of us have never experienced. The under-represented reality between fiction and objective thought. An existence akin to a world fueled and charged by love and loss, by commitment to family and the need for survival at all costs. One that cannot be bound by laws from political systems on either side of the border. Often this human drama is intensified with its reflection of deprivation. Yes, there is struggle. There is also joy, and the life of a dream, of opening a pathway heretofore unacknowledged in American society. It is here that the viewer is urged to ponder the relationship between the real and the surreal or imagined, and to question their own existence in comparison to that of the subjects’.
Perhaps a brief journey through this stream of consciousness will remind the American public and their politicians of the fundamental humanity shared between themselves and the immigrants, whose lives have become such political playthings.
Photographs: Victor Cobo
Website: www.victorcobo.com
Interesting essay…I have a hard time looking past the “inconsistencies of style/format/presentation. It feels collected rather than created w/ intent…where did that polaroid come from??. just a thought, otherwise the beauty of any of these essays; especially those that break the mold, get you thinking!! ..and that I think IS the best part! …again just my opinion.
Am I missing the captions for each image?? if so, not sure how to pull them up.
Nice conversation here by the way! Cheers, Jeremy
Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleson Pie,
A fish can’t whistle and neither can I.
Ask me a riddle and I reply:
Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie.
I’ve always felt that art and poetry are accessible because humanity shares an internal language regardless of the specifics of our outward existences..but here in this essay, from the writing, we are being asked to “question (our) own existence in comparison to that of the subjects’”..and we are verbally set into a position of being separate from the viewed in that they “have emotions/needs that many of us have never experienced”..so the words and my viewing experience are disparate..and perhaps if I am to do what Victor asks (in writing) I would have been better served by a more “direct” documentary piece, but honestly I prefer the work as it is (without regard to the written word) as I feel a connection with what is being communicated and how it is being communicated.
Fish: I have chicken pox.
Fish: I have ate the unicorn
Fish: I am an immigra….
Akaky: I liked the fish.
“it offered me insight into a life different from my own …”
About the best description I have seen, the rest is just “method.”
As one with a newspaper background, who can be painfully literal and bizarrely abstract at the same time, and who struggles with the duality of this, I appreciate all approaches but have come to realize that if the standard is to offer true insight, then the edges of the shadows can hold more light than the noonday sun.
We have been told by Victor that his essay is “stream of consciousness.”
Is stream of consciousness a good enough explanation for us to consider this an essay rather than just an assembled group of random photos?
I get that we’re supposed to be looking at the work on burn as visual poetry but (I know some may jump all over me for saying this) my personal opinion is that the photographer should be doing more work than the viewer. Otherwise why not just post a grey or white empty screen and let us all go to town on that? :))
Food for thought…meant tongue in cheek…I’m interested in serious responses, not arguments please!
This essay made more sense to me when I clicked on Victor’s website and saw that he presents himself as an art photographer.
touché
I for one find these images to be pretty literal, and pretty descriptive. I’m a fan.
Like Bukowski is literal and descriptive that is.
Akaky,
Thanks for interjecting that tasty morsel of humor. I needed a good laugh today. And thank you to DAH, et al. for your passionate work here at burn. I’ve been viewing since inception; I enjoy the variety of work and the ensuing disussions.
Victor, the work is powerful and thought provoking. Stretching the meaning allows for personal interpertation which is part of the craft- I don’t want it spoon fed, I like to discover it for myself-
a little mystery.
I posted this on the Wrasse thread, but hey I think it is equally pertinent here…
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=j1kftCx5-tA&feature=PlayList&p=DB93E79625FEAFB6&playnext=1&index=3
My comment above is directed not just at this particular essay, btw.
Some images here are perhaps more literal than other essays we have seen on burn.
Another way of rewording what I said above:
What, in your opinion is the photographer responsible for?
If we are all using our imaginations and giving the photographer “credit” for whatever we IMAGINE they are saying, what do they actually need to say, if anything?
Laughing..
Oh I see .. Now I
Get it…
Akaky , eventually ate that
“fish”…!!!
Ok… All..
Just waking up in Seattle…
5:30pm .. Time for the vampires
to wake up…
Let’s hope that this night will
bring some new winds of adventure…
Ok… Ready now…
Going to find some kinda lost “Venice beach”..
first night, first time in seattle…
.. It’s not Raining…
So f**k all stereotypes…
F**k all rules…
laughing… after all Akaky ate
that chicken pox-ed poor little fish…!
ok… Sunset… Going out…
Looking for “trouble”…
Peace and hugs!
… again,
i dont mind at all if Akaky ate that fish…
because that particular fish was responsible
for the unfortunate missing Unicorn…
Again, all that thanks to the gentle witness
P&H Trucking…
“they” are hiring by the way…
… and i’m applying…
ok, gotta go,
A hot like fire, red Benz, is waiting outside my door…
lucky me.
;-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
This is an interesting discussion, but what strikes me is that we are all sucked into the familiar argument about what constitutes art, documentary, etc, and what kinds of liberties can we take with our art, and how “literal” photojournalists should or shouldn’t be…etc…etc…rather than really discussing the piece itself and whether it works or not. And that is all well and good, but proclaiming that art should be free of the constraints of logic and didacticism is no excuse for a weak and inconsistent essay. Okay, an anti-essay, whatever…At some point you’ve got to wonder whether the emperor is really wearing clothes or not…I try to keep an open mind about art and if someone deems something to be great and worthy, as David obviously does with this piece, I try to understand why, even though my first reaction may be to call bullshit. However, with this piece, I’m really having trouble getting what makes it so great. As I said before, I really dig Victor’s other work, but this piece as presented here is not solid as a “finished” piece and IMO should not be published in its current state. I can see that with some rounding out it could work as a conceptual piece, but it really needs some balance. It needs some framing. It needs some design. It needs some rhythm, something you can dance to. Something that repeats, something that hypnotizes. It needs to settle into some kind of poetic language and stay there for a few frames. I’m not at all opposed to the wildly divergent styles and subject matter in the piece, but they need to reinforce each other, contrast each other, build and release tension, swirl around each other, rinse and repeat. This kind of piece is hard to pull off because the line between what is high art and what is pure crap is so fine, like the edge of a knife. It’s all in how you sculpt it. There is good stuff here, to be sure, and Victor, like Panos, is riding along that knife-edge and coming up with some gems along the way; it’s commendable work, but IMO it is about a third of the way finished. It needs to be a much bigger and more rhythmic piece for the themes to have weight.
Chris Two things..
Try to forget this…
This series is a complex, anthropological tour through the landscape of the indigenous Central American — by means of memory, spirituality, longing and isolation. Lives are concentrated with a vibrancy, an intensity of being that many of us have never experienced. The under-represented reality between fiction and objective thought. An existence akin to a world fueled and charged by love and loss, by commitment to family and the need for survival at all costs. One that cannot be bound by laws from political systems on either side of the border. Often this human drama is intensified with its reflection of deprivation. Yes, there is struggle. There is also joy, and the life of a dream, of opening a pathway heretofore unacknowledged in American society. It is here that the viewer is urged to ponder the relationship between the real and the surreal or imagined, and to question their own existence in comparison to that of the subjects’.
Perhaps a brief journey through this stream of consciousness will remind the American public and their politicians of the fundamental humanity shared between themselves and the immigrants, whose lives have become such political playthings.
Then try very very hard to re-imagine that you just read this and only this:
Simply My Central American Sentiment.
Then go to the actual essay here:
http://www.victorcobo.com (American Dreams)
close your eyes when image 4 and 15 pop up (basically the b/w images, the first image (4) because its repetitive and doesn’t have the merit the rest of the images have, the second b/w (15) does have merit, but not in b/w as the sole b/w, a single b/w attracts too much emphasis.)
and then let it wash over you..
first question… does the wall that images hang on impact the way we read images?
second question(s)…should the artist be so literal with their introduction? More so, is there loads in the intro that we could better deduce from the images? Would it have been more appealing to collect the feelings from the images and not the intro?… Would it feel better to arrive at these opinions without being ‘clearly’ told what you should think before you view these images?
Totally on a side-note, i always thought a great board game / college drinking game would be to put a bunch of artist statements/grant application statements on the back of a deck of cards… the game would proceed with each person taking their turn by picking a card and then choosing to drink a shot of Jaegermaister or reading the artist statement out loud, with a straight face to the rest of the players… either way, if they vomit, the game is over for them. i don’t know, but i’d take my chances with the jaeger every time.
p.s. i’m not slagging-off the actual introduction to this essay, more like refuting the merit of the introduction ‘clearly telling us’ what this essay is supposed to accomplish. As matter of fact this introduction is particularly ‘un-naff’ as artistic introductions go.
I suppose introductions should be crafted as carefully as captions.. There was an interesting discussion of captions over here; i think some of the same concepts apply:
http://blog.magnumphotos.com/2008/11/sumo.html
Also, in opposite to what i say, i’m certain more people will prefer this clear road map to understand what they are ‘supposed’ to conclude/feel; that way they can come to a yes/no answer, much less work.
i’m probably alone in only wanting the right pill to put me in the right mood to let me make my own mental map and find my own feeling. That being said, i’m certain both types of audiences would have deduced some of those introductory notes without having the hand dealt for them and their hand forced by the introduction.
i’m also not criticising the wall that art hangs on at Burn, just suggesting white gallery walls seem to suit some media more than others.
My understanding of the U.S. is, as for many, almost entirely based on the movies I have seen. All I can say Panos, is be careful out there; Washington State is full of trees and serial killers – and it rains all the time. Whatever you do don’t stop the car at night to give a ride to anyone carrying an axe!
Worried.
Mike.
Hi Folks,
Interesting discussion this. I’ve watched the essay a few times, and read the intro. I’ve watched the full essay on Victor’s site too. I have to agree that the full essay makes much more sense than the one presented here. Like many others, I think the presentation here gives the impression of an incomplete piece of work. If this were posted under the proposed “work in progress” section I could see why it would have been included. As it stands it just feels to much like a loose collection of pictures that maybe have something in common, but what that something is hasn’t been fully realised yet. I like the stream of consciousness idea, and I think that it is much more apparent in the full version, as-well-as the idea of playing with memory, hopes and dreams in a lyrical way – it makes the people more alive to me.
I don’t think the written intro really adds anything, to be honest. I think it plays at being something for everyone, the notion of memory and the stream of consciousness etc for the “art crowd”, and the anthropological study and political rhetoric for the “documentary gang”. I think it would have been much better to have left more “open” for the view, rather than giving us a user manual. As it stands I’d also question its anthropological merit too. It simply isn’t rigorous enough to work as a piece of ethnography.
Cheers,
Jason
David:
I didn’t mean the limitation of Burn is YOU or your DECISIONS ;))…I mean, Burn is Limited by space, readership (concept of people not able to look at more than 25-30 pics, but i’ll guess i’ll test that ;)) ), and being online magazine, instead of, for example, a book, exhibition, website, etc ;))
in no way was I suggested the shortened version was a limitation imposed by you as editor/dave harvey, but by the nature of an on-line magazine….
hugs
b
Words always seem to harm photographs more than help them. A forum for discussion is a great thing. Democratic, involving and free! But man, all these words, not to mention the intro for this body of work, tire me out.
JASON…
yes, i do not understand why Victor chose the “short version” for Burn either…maybe it was because every time someone does a longer essay, the comments come in “too long”…everything is either too short or too long…i cannot imagine an essay in any magazine anywhere where if there were open comments on an essay that this might not happen…ultimately, Victor’s work wants to be a book..and i am sure this is his goal…can you imagine Robert Frank showing us 20 pictures from The Americans here?? the man would get killed…well, he did get killed when he first showed Americans…anyway an interesting discussion …
cheers, david
JAMES…
i am sure you may imagine that i could easily argue BOTH sides of this debate over the literal vs. the so called “stream of consciousness” (let’s face it, nobody has yet beat Virginia Woolf)…while i may want to go in and tweak out Victor’s essay a bit (and we can do this anytime) i do think he is much easier to “fix” than say someone who just cannot get off the so called “picture story” concept… would rather “dial back” Victor, than try to get an A,B,C photographer to dream….again, just my opinion…
cheers, david
CATHY….
who said the work presented on Burn is supposed to be viewed as visual poetry?? did i write that?? i hope not….
Victor is bearing witness….what he sees and how he edits and makes his juxtapositions may go out of the realm of the mass media, but he is a straight out documentary photographer…the USE of his photographs or the perception of his work could appeal more to the sophisticated gallery crowd or be published by the more discerning book publishers, but he is still simply bearing witness…
most really great art/literature requires some work on the part of the viewer/reader…spoon feeding the viewer is just too too easy..too too pedantic…..i can get anyone to shoot an “easy to understand” essay in a day…doing something that allows the viewer to dig in a bit and think a bit is much more difficult…
i think i am correct in writing that you have been basically asking this same question for the last year or so…and i think i am also correct in writing that i have been TRYING to answer it all along…
i must be doing a very poor job!!! you said “why not just post a grey or white screen and let us all go to town on that?? c’mon Cathy c’mon….
cheers, david
CHRIS…
good points…so, i think it would be quite easy for Victor to make a few changes, add a few things, subtract a few things, and make it sing..isn’t that why we are here???
there have already been changes in Patricia’s piece…and there will soon be a re-edit of Panos….
i think the “final essay” will be whatever we put in print at the end of the year…all else is some version of “work in progress”….i think that is why the consensus was to keep essays open for comments…wasn’t that your idea amigo???
cheers, david
Dear Victor,
I have very enjoyed your works.
Your editing is very nice. :)))
Like Lao-tzu principles … letting nature be… leaving nature as it is…. nature itself remained intact.
Thank you very much.
JOE…
laughing!! yes, i would bet on the jaeger too!! god, is there anything worse than getting sick on jaeger??? (well, tequila not much better) anyway, i digress…damned dude, you draw different conclusions at different times for different reasons..but always thought provoking..cool…
cheers, david
KYUNGHEE LEE…
yes, yes, …YOU understand…you WOULD understand…with FEW words you say it all!!
hugs, david
;’)…i’ve wearied myself too…new resolution: words reserved only for family and work ;))…let them ring out like a bell..;))
BOB…
your words are always welcomed…that is, when you are ready and in the mood to write…what would Burn be without your comments?? nobody does the “wrap up” perspective better than thee…
your photographs, your essay will run this week…Bones of Time will say it all for Bob Black…
cheers, david
david….no rush…no worries…what i feel is just a balance…how to give over words, and make sure they’re there for the work…the work that feeds my family ;))…and enriches our lives…keep the priorities in check….but, i have no worries, just measuring how/when i write, , book inside….hugs….b
BOB….
yes, book inside!! this is our next step….
cheers, david
I wish I could bat this stuff out like Bob does. If I waited to get in the mood to write, I’d never write anything.
tenderness and hardness at the same time. that’s what I see here. great work…
Thanks David,
like those toxins, i’m pretty funny in small doses.. :-)
Hi David,
I always think that taking pictures from an essay to produce a “diluted” version leads to problems. Like your Robert Frank example: it just wouldn’t be the same had he showed a handful of images: to many gaps, to many leaps. Even the fragmentary, stream of consciousness, poetic works need a structure of some sort. By removing images it is that which is lost. I guess, like so many things, its all about balance: selecting the right images, sequencing them in a way that lets them speak, lets them fly. That fragile balance is what it all hangs on and I think finding this takes as many images as it takes. Once you find that number stick with it, otherwise its like reading a book with missing pages.
As for the to long/too short debate: once you’ve arrived at the definitive version: STICK WITH IT. Victor should have definitely stayed with the long version. People are always going to debate this, but he had the final essay, he showed us HIS vision on his website and thats the one he should have stayed with. If other people don’t like it well, thats up to them.
Are you planning any visits to London, David?
Cheers
Jason
DAVID.
No, you did not say that. The subject has come up in some of the discussions here. I used the expression “visual poetry” to condense it for the purposes of making a comment.
You are basically correct. I have been asking the same question more or less and am still asking it, not because I don’t understand what you are saying but because what you are showing me is often (but not always) …I don’t know the word I want to use here so will use yours… GREAT enough to make me want to do the work.
THAT’S IT!!! Actually I think your comment above is the best answer yet to my question! You said “really GREAT art requires some work on the part of the viewer” No offense to anyone here but when I keep asking for more on the part of the photographer to make me want to do the work I am asking for the work to be great, which I’m sorry to say, it is not…in my opinion. Bottom line, I guess it all comes down to that. :))
…and when I wrote…
“Otherwise why not just post a grey or white empty screen and let us all go to town on that? :))”
intended as somewhat of a joke.
I am saying GIVE ME MORE. Make me want to do my part as the viewer.
shoot…meant to post that as a reply, under my previous comment to David.
Cathy:
I won’t be able to answer more succinctly that what David has given you, so i’ll try to provide another example to contemplate, espcecially since i’ve been one of the ‘loud mouths’ here who have stated that it is incumbent on the viewers to work and that the photographer’s work lay in making the work, not in interpreting it for the viewers. I think it is incredibly important that an ‘essay’ (substitute here any other world, book, story, photograph) be an authentic expression of the photographers vision, idea, reaction, emotion, ‘witness’ of the world with which she is engaged. The problem, all too often, is that photographers (again, here substitute any word, writer, singer, artist, musician, tvshow producer, teacher) orient themselves and ‘appreciate’ ways of expressing which only make sense to them when viewing others. for example, as a teacher, i’m very different than most of my colleagues (not better or worse, just different) but as a teacher I must understand that my classroom is filled students from different nations, cultures, language backgrounds, educational background and, more importantly, process, absorb, react to ideas in a wildly different array of ways. some of analytic, some intuitive, some verbal, some physical, some slow, some quick, some experiential, some digestive, etc. we all learn differently. Thus, when we’re looking at other’s work, while we cant change who we are or how we see/reflect, we do need to try to see work from the perspective it’s given: this comes, i think, above all from familiarity: widening one’s horizons and perspectives: read different books, listen to different music, have different friends/conversations, look at a wider variety of photography. I dont mean YOU should do this, i mean your question begs for that.
I’ll share with you my friend Olivier Pin-Fat. An extraordinary photographer and journalist and artist. His work (he is now based in BKK) details and deals with much of the same ground that ‘traditional” journalists cover, but his approach is different: interior, engaged with his memories, his life of cultural clash, and his essays, or most of them, are never ‘linear’ but filled with repetitions and questions and expressions…they’re also incredibly messy, ’cause his work is about that….
compare Oli’s work with (plug in the photographer) other journalists and one starts to understand fundamental differences, not interms of “this isnt great or this is great” but in terms of how one DECIDES to ‘witness’ this life…and that variety is as varied as the experiences that enter us….
i think assessing what is ‘great’ or not is a dead end…and unimportant, what is, at least for me, more important is this: trying to understand the vision, the lives that lay in front of us…and for many photographers, a simple, staright forward story just doesn’t meet the challenge of what this life does, a disservice to the lives and the reaction of this life…it’s not about complexity, but about being authentic to the experience…
for one person, the authentic is Nachtwey’s pics for others it is something entirely different…are either experiences less authentic?…of course not….
the real work, again for me, is for the viewer to make the choice to try to see what’s going on…not to like something (that doesnt matter, and that’s an entirely personal reaction to begin with), but to really attempt to see what beats this person’s tune….that challenge is so much more enriching than dismissing (i know you are not doing this, but many are and do) something because they dont like it, or dont understand it…
again: the work is in the making (for the photographer) and the work (for the viewer) is in the desire and attempt to see…
i dont understand a lot of my son’s decisions, but Im trying like all hell to dig inside his head and heart….not to like what he does/things, but to try and grasp that incomprensible, beautiful soul of his…
here is oli
http://www.olivierpin-fat.com/portfolio.html
running
b
I made this submission a smaller edit to “stir it up”(journalism vs art), and to draw viewers to the website for a more complete look at my work. It’s funny, when I show this body of work to galleries and museums they deem it more “journalistic”than my other two projects, and when I show it to photojournalists, they deem the work to be too disjointed and “conceptual.” I’ll be the first to admit, I am drawn to the more snapshot approach, or what I like to call the diary documentary method(ie-Arbus, Petersen, Goldin, Shore, Eggleston, etc). This is what fascinates me as a witness and in general keeps me fascinated about my relationship to this vast world we live in. But this said, I don’t mind leaving the imagination up to the viewer. Some of my favorite film directors do this, why can’t documentary photographers?
Thank you all for your comments(both critical and praise). This is what I love about photography. David H, I can’t thank you enough for this opportunity.
All best,
Victor*
CATHY…
sure, i understand….everyone wants to see work which inspires…and that is not the same work for all of us…work that is a catalyst for you to go out and work may not be the same as work that would inspire me…and there is no right or wrong to it at all…now, i think if you had seen what Victor was doing about 5 years ago , you would have liked it better…his work then was more classically oriented….one of the things we have talked about so much here, but it can never be discussed enough, is how our tastes change over time…based on so many of your comments here, i would imagine you to like the “old Victor”…i like the “new Victor” but know for sure that most people would prefer the “old Victor”….
at a certain point in their careers and development , some photographers choose to appeal to a smaller but more discerning audience…the very best photographers have much smaller audiences than do the ones who are trying to “appeal” to many…is this not true in all of the arts?? for example, in my own case, i would rather communicate really well with the 5,000 people who might see my book than with the 40 million folks who see Natgeo…admittedly, in some way this could be considered elitist..again, most serious photographers do not care much about the masses..at least not in terms of “acceptance”…they care about their peers….i am sure de Niro cares about what Pacino thinks of his “method” performance more than the millions of his “fans”…now, he is still going to make a movie that gets good “box office” and he knows his craft well enough to make it work for his fans, but in his heart of hearts , he really wants to know Pacino’s opinion …this is where Victor is…he knows he can shoot a “straight story”…and he knows most people will prefer the “straight story”…but, he wants to go for a higher level…he may want Phaidon or Aperture or Trolley for a publisher…he may want the Fahey-Kline Gallery…these book publishers/gallerists are not going to appreciate the same kind of essay that might play well with the mass publications…they have moved on with their taste level..they appeal to a totally different crowd…no print collector/book buyer is going to buy a fine print/book that he/she could see in a mass magazine…
i will bet you that in 2 years you will like a certain kind of work that may not appeal to you now..you will tire soon of the easier essays and photographs…now this does not mean that everything that you do not “get” is great..absolutely not…all of this requires perspective and just looking and looking at lots and lots of work…
cheers, david
that is more or less what I was trying to express, above..together, the words and the images don’t gel well with me.
DAVID AND BOB.
Running myself…
Will take a look at Bob’s link asap.
For now just wanted to thank you for your great comments and for your kind way of presenting them.
Both comments very inspirational, made me think about what you were saying without hitting me over the head. Left me with a lot to think about. Just like what we are all looking for the images to do! :))
couldn’t be bothered reading 96 comments but quite enjoyed this essay. some very obvious criticisms that could be made re. sequencing, consistency etc… but for some reason, when there lots of really strong images, this seems to be of little consequence.
anyway, off to look at his website now.
thanks for your insight Victor..
I think more terms need to be added as the art world grows..
however, I resist people being ‘labeled’
and put in ‘categories’
I was shocked this weekend at the DGA awards,
when an animated film won best documentary!!!!
new terms needed,
or something……
**
DAVID and BOB.
Server not responding? I’ll try this again.
Back for a moment…I can do better in expressing what I said above…
Version #2:
In your comments above you both (in words) expressed yourselves in your own unique ways leaving me inspired, with lots to think about and wanting more.
The process we just went thru together as writers/reader is more or less the same process we are discussing as photographers/viewers. Not much more to say other than thanks and I will try my best as both photographer and viewer to push my boundaries.
As an aside…the relationship between what we write and what we see causes me to think the suggestions about “banning comments altogether” may not be a great idea. Some good does come from them.
Thanks so much for sharing your work with the train ride that is Burn :)))…it’s been a pleasure and an terrific opportunity, above all, to feed upon your work.
keep on, keepin’ on! :)
cheers
bob