Front Porch No. 3

FRONT PORCH NO. 3    by dah

171 Responses to “Front Porch No. 3”

  • What is this, the El Norte and blanca version of Roberta and Renata on OBX?
    There HAS to be a good story about this one!
    Nice fill-in light, by the way, on the figure on the left.

  • Are these the young ladies from Eastern Europe that were working in OBX for the summer that appeared in a previous post? I recognize the girl on the right…

  • OK, I found the link to “Summer Job”, a Dialogue post featuring these ladies and tried to post a link but it’s not showing up.

  • Ohhhhhhhhh…..
    Those black shorts…….

  • Another example of why people should never turn off their Xmas lights.

  • i just liked the way the lipstick matched the Burn logo….

  • OK, starting to worry about you Harvey..

  • I have more imagination than you, David…. :O)

  • DAVID,

    I am happy, that you frequently publish your own photos. Just, keep going.

    and yes, this is very pretty… photo :)
    Some things are never change!

  • Gordon , I guess we weren’t the only ones to have this same thought :)
    But are right everything flows nice, the girls themselves,the christmas lights(as mv pointed out),the colors, the white, the red, even the match with the Burn logo (yes guys..the Burn logo is up there…coming on the top if you look a second time hehe)

    And Sidney, that would be a very hard El Norte and blanca version of ourselves to beat… they’re so pretty! (making really easy David’s job).Certainly, thanks for the association..a flattering one. Nice to bump into you again Sidney! That’s always nice…

    Justin…what a memory! The winner!
    Wendy..The black shirt..Probably David havent noticed it till this moment! Like he mentioned; he was so concentrated on Burn Logo. A big warming hello to you Wendy (Eva and Civi too..when they come around)

  • 2012 is going to be such a good year.

  • its the opposed body language in this that intrigues me.

    ……And those colors are not even in the same ball park.

  • Body language.. to the left it’s a loud NO.. such a difference if taking Sidney’s first sentence.. opposed feelings, warm vs. cold, open vs. locked up.. South vs. North..

    Not really very convinced by this photo, the expression of the woman to the left.. uhmm..

  • I usually stop taking pictures, when a woman gives me such a look.
    DAH certainly is much braver than I am ;-)


    the trouble with editing an online magazine is that many know what you are up you…i can’t get away with anything anymore….i have no private life :) yes, the Ukraine community is another whole story to be told down here….but i have no time to take on any other projects…my family , my friends, are telling me to not take on anything more…so, this story is open for you!


    yes those black shorts…i have pictures of these women at the local fishing pier also…dressed as only they can dress…so funny to see the shots of the fishermen pretending not to notice…wanna see these shots? buy my OBX book!! teasing, for you a comp copy….


    just now starting to worry? hmmm, many threw in the towel long ago…


    really? on my computer, Dasha on the right, lipstick almost a perfect match…but yes reds almost can never be matched exactly without a bit of photoshop and even then might not…well maybe here yes, but in ink? really hard.


    i always love to read your analysis…your unique style always resonates..missing our mutual energies in Rio….Rio is going back to the wall…next week in New York…oh yes, by the way, i hope the wall in Rio has been re painted after we (me) destroyed it…so our total damage was: one glass topped coffee table and three walls needed to be re painted..right? total is about $700. worth of damage to our apartment…Rio is an expensive city!!


    you probably do have more imagination …i was blinded by the light (quiz, what song?)


    so now i am being called “brave” for taking this picture! ok :) well it is interesting you point out the look which you are assuming is somehow threatening…hmmmm, detached is what i was going for, not aggressive….i have been working on “detached” lately…ok now a little game for you…can you remember at least two others i have published recently which would go with this series?


    always always good to see your name here on Burn…this week is crazy for me, but next week i will look for you on skype…i want to catch up on your life…..


    as i wrote to Thomas, the series is “detached”…i will publish or link the contact sheet on this….there are several ways to go….i have done so so much warm, that i have started experimenting with cold or apparent cold but maybe not cold….warm might be too easy….. just thinking, playing…


    i was thinking the same thing


    my holiday lights are always on…

  • Boy, am I ever proud of my Ukrainian DNA heritage as I slowly enjoy this shot!

    David, I began to appreciate the tilted image just before the Rio workshop, and was really excited to see you use it so often then in your work. With this photograph the tilt adds a layer of excitement to the composition, but I still don’t understand the thinking behind the doing.

    If one imagines this image re-framed level to the horizon, one realizes the woman on the right is shorter than the other. Tilting the camera makes her appear taller, and changes the “democratic relationship” between the two figures. It’s very intriguing, because this technique can both change the energy of the form, and the content’s editorial intention.

    I’ve been trying to realize the tilt technique and lately have been shooting digitally in the local forests, shooting trees, twisting and turning the camera to see if I can add this sort of vitality to my images. My singular lack of success makes me realize I’m not understanding the dynamics of the tilt…but that just makes me want to understand it all the more! I’ve tried making parallel the lines of interest to the frame-edge, and filling the frame in the most fulsome manner possible. It remains a frustrating thrill; when I look at the shot above I just want to figure out the disconnect of what is failing me against what succeeds so easily for you.

  • JEFF

    i never really realize i am “tilting”…i am simply looking at the flow of elements….at that split second moment i wanted the black shorts and just a hint of her tilt no shorts no legs…no tension…boring….back up? even more boring…this way roof line “points’ to the girl on left….why would gravity or a horizon line be THE guides for an image anyway? science over art? smiling

    if you were sitting across from me and i was talking to you, i would not be aware of a horizon line…very unlikely i would be looking at you in a rigid way no matter what…now, IF the horizon is actually in the picture , then it becomes part of the composition …as a line..not as a horizon line…just another could be irritating if the horizon line is so tilted that it makes you “dizzy”, otherwise, what’s the big deal??

    better not to think too much about these kinds of things…just shoot what feels right..if it feels right, it is right….

  • DAVID,

    Yes, I will try catch you on skype also. Best on some weekend. :)

  • You are right..we were like a classic rock band in a hotel room ahahah Actually we liked that apartment so much, we’ve chosen not to move back to the bigger fancier one(where we’ve had a great deal..David’s charm… and would pay even less) and things ironically just got wrong with this one; you managed to break a whole glass table in your last hour in Rio and none really knows how to explain that ,Renata is still with that image in her mind, the walls didnt survive our 30 packages of the most super expensive glue designed only for walls’care? But those were such perfect clean walls..the perfect gallery. How to resist? In the end, that was the most expensive apartment for sure, but Im sure we’d do everything again. That was worthy each cents..from meetings, parties, dinners, the comprehensive neighboors , to the hammock and the ham cheese quiche at the corner. And the walls..oh..those walls (yes..they survived..i’ve made sure they got a good proper painting for the next time)!Rock stars!

  • Filling in the frame is what I thought. The funny thing is that in the viewfinder my eyes still seem connected to the ground and I don’t yet just see the image within the frame. In a way it remains some sort of bottleneck; being rooted in the science of physics is hindering the looseness of art. Breaking that tie shall be overcome!

    Cool advice; thanks.

  • Ah David,
    Im specially anxious and extremely excited for the next steps of baby “One Night in Rio”.My heart, soul and mind will be there with you in New York next week,fixed on your walls again. A week that will help to guide all those two years making the Rio as everyone knows in a real Rio along a journey to get it raw, honest and flaming like you did!Very proud seeing it getting ready and coming to life

  • I want to see No. 2 and No. 1
    Great to read about the “tilt” I have also failed miserably at times with it but never given it a thought to do it for the heck of it…I was just to fit everything in the frame as David said.

    I like what Chris Johns says in the interview…if you are not making mistakes you are not pushing yourself.

  • yeah david…
    i wanna see those shots… :)
    i like that….

  • David..

    Playing is good, always, no matter what :)

    Roberta.. big warm hug to you!

  • John..

    last one, no doubt, most vulnerable one..

  • John,


    But that’s after seeing the others…you still get that “crazy feel” or “disturbed” (on purpose)? from his stare from the others because of how he is dressed.

  • John,

    first one and last one work for me.

  • John, first and then last for me too…

  • John…

    First and last, those two are so yours.

  • DAVID,
    game accepted :)

    maybe I am a little lost in translation, and “detached” has different meanings in German, so I am trying to translate to German back to English, for the meaning – I would go for “worldly-wise” for “detached”, if that makes sense.

    with that in mind, I would select these pictures to go with the #3 photo:×597.jpg
    this picture, might also fit in the context:×600.jpg

    however, I am biased with the title “FrontPorch #3”, so I would expect some pictures with relationship to your front porch to really fit to the series.
    Unfortunately, I don’t really find them looking back through the dialogue here, the instagram pictures and the rio pictures. The pictures I would select to combine this with “detached” and “front porch” would include pictures with Michelle and your son, Bryan.

    …and now I am really curious how far off I was with my selection :)

  • john
    1 and 3….
    what is the photo being used for?

  • Thomas…

    I believe your third link is the same two young ladies. That would go with the above quite well then. Must be one more out there.

  • The 2 of Dasha it’s interesting how she seems wiser, so much younger in the first one. Perhaps it’s her mood or more comfort with the camera. I love the lines of the lights …and that they’re always on:)

    Nice to see moon light profile one again too -beautiful w/ocean at night in the background.

    John, I was most struck with #1.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I will go for the lips…how do you,photophilosophers say it? the contrast…

    RENATA…I am here…warm hug from a BURNING lady like you…oime…I am in Heaven!

    THOMAS…you can do it…I am waiting:)

  • a civilian-mass audience

    JOHNYG…I am going for number three…

    always three…:))))))))))))…

  • Lots of dialogue here and it is late and I can’t catch up on it all, so I think I will just echo Wendy’s comment:

    Those black shorts…….

    John – I couldn’t narrow it down to one. Not even two. Nor three. I was barely able to narrow it down to four. I will look again tomorrow, after I sleep.


    in this case, I would go for “Summer Job”, that certainly makes the most sense:


    in this case I would go for both pictures of “summer job”

  • Michael, David,

    in this case, I would go for the “Summer Job” post, with the two pictures there.

    (have posted it now for the third time, and hope only one shows here, finally)


  • tried to post it three times now. maybe it is in moderation?

  • my guess is then “summer job” with all two pictures and the one here above as the third….

  • ah, posting the link does not show here. so, probably in moderation.
    I stop spamming now :)

  • JOHN

    i would choose either the first or the last…in the long run, depending on context, just visually, probably the first…for one thing, the first goes more with your overall body of portraits the best i think…i like the expression of the last, but not the picture itself so much..the look in the eyes, the emotion is great, but as a photograph , well not so nuanced as it could be…picture number one is complete…yea, number one..

  • THOMAS..

    there are no comments in moderation…as a registered commentator here, you would never have anything in moderation..there must be some other glitch…

  • Thank you everyone. i didnt mean to hijack anything but I was pretty happy when these came back from the Lab yesterday and I just wanted to stick these up for a day or so. And it sort of fits with the ‘picture number 3 deal…..OK really loosely but…’
    I didnt think I had anything (and wouldnt have had without clip tests …lesson there ) and now I do.

    WENDY. No use at all other than to make a picture that I can like.


  • DAVID, OK, but strange.

    Anyway – for the two missing to complete the set of 3 pictures, I would go for both pictures of “summer job”

  • DAVID,

    Everytime I try to link “summer job”, the entry is not visible.
    Yes, some glitch maybe.


    This is a link to summer job, the two pictures, which go before Front Porch #3, I think…

  • HAIK,

    is there a rule putting links to spam if they are pointing back to burnmagazine?

  • ‘photophilosophers’ nice term civilian.
    Master of Arts in Photophilosophy …sounds probable :)

  • THODORIS. I moved this here. OK? (no wish to hijack the other thread)

    If you shoot a bunch of instagram and believe its hip..then thats your trip. I aint gonna follow you there, but its fine. stuff looks kinda funky. Its all good.
    But, If you shoot a bunch of the stuff and try to pass it off as type 690 thats another matter altogether. Coz it aint. You really wanna shoot 690….guess what? Shoot 690

    You want your 5d files to look like Kodachrome?? Cool! Its a good look. You want to pretend they ARE Kodachrome…??? WHY???

    I guess I see a difference between a look and an attempt to pass as real (even if it is just by omission of detail)

    And yeah I sound like some stuck in the mud dick. Good.

  • Fair enough John. Only asked because it seemed a bit odd comment coming from you. Thanks for taking the time to explain your reasoning. Not sure if I agree (literally, I’m conflicted about it), but I do get your point. Cheers

  • Thodoris. Listen, I am conflicted too. I state this position, but it seems at odds with how I felt a couple years ago. And Yes I have stated, very strongly that the image is everything…..but I believe that less and less….AUTHENTICITY…,.thats the thing for me now.
    And what the hell is authentic or not in this day and age??? probably best to ignore me entirely as some drunken fool.

  • John, experiencing internal conflict and having the ability to change your mind over time are preferable attributes to the opposite, as far as I’m concerned. I take it you’re doing better health wise if you’ve started drinking again. cheers

  • JOHN

    you are confusing Instagram with Hipstamatic….Instagram pictures can be totally straight out of the camera…any camera….i think you are assuming manipulation when that is not necessarily the case…i love the Instagram app….shoot em straight…my main mantra is authenticity…however, for you i think authentic is technical, and for me it is about intent, morality, etc…

  • Authenticity.

    Is it more authentic to shoot with b&w film than to do a digital conversion in lightroom?

    What’s more authentic? A polaroid print or a polaroid-looking image from instagram?

    If I scan a polaroid print and put it up on the web, is that less authentic than holding it in your hands?

    Do the stories told with digital imagery have less authenticity than those told with film images?

  • Today I made patatoe soup.. onions, garlic, carrots, chili and patatoes, all homegrown.. tomatoes bought at the store, same for salt and pepper.

    Why? Because I enjoy making it, and because it tastes good, every time a bit different, but good.. or better, we like it..

    My choice, works for me.. to each his own.. just don’t try to convince me an instant soup is the same.. that is how I feel about hipstagram and fake borders.. and that is why I print in the darkroom.. I enjoy the process.. and it’s never the same.. and it’s mine, from start to finish.. joy.. I understand what John is saying..

  • I’ll lean heavily towards David’s view of authenticity. Intent, morality. The technical aspects are more a question of aesthetics. Though if one is actually trying to pass something off as something it’s not, that would, I think, preclude it from being authentic under the morality clause.

  • Eva,

    I just re-opened my own darkroom (printing family snapshots, the largest I can….)… it was such a long time since the last printing session that some sort of life appeared in the forgotten chemicals… homegrown, we can say ;)

  • Eva,

    No one is saying you should not enjoy what you do. “Authentic” is a bit of a loaded term is all.

  • I have a little area in my basement I use as a darkroom. I haven’t used it in years, but I used to quite a lot. I loved the process. The tactile aspect of making a print. The smell, the wrinkled fingers. Could spend hours into the night trying to get it just right. And pleased as punch in the morning when I got it. But those photos were no more or less “authentic” to me then the prints or digital images I produce today.

  • Also, what are “fake borders?”

  • It’s not the camera or the technique .. It’s just the “who” was behind it (camera/technique)

    (proof here):

  • EVA

    i understand what John and you are thinking about process…you like the traditional process…i do too….yet, i do not think any more “authentic” than a picture taken with an iPhone…the friggin machines are artistically ARBITRARY…only one way or another because of the sequence of SCIENTIFIC INVENTION..but the sequence of science doesn’t mean anything to me as an artist..

    for all i know as a non scientist is that it shoulda been harder to invent wet plates than the iPhone….and now i stand here with both available simultaneous i can just choose one or the other…why be a prisoner of this arbitrary scientifically linear sequence of events? what is the difference between a machine that makes digital pictures than a machine that makes film pictures , EXCEPT that one was invented before the other?…

    they are still both recording MACHINES…that is all they ARE….the ONLY artistic thing in the entire equation is your EYE….whether you print on toilet paper or silver bromide or this camera or that is a craft issue, a tech issue, maybe even a motive issue, but not a pure art issue…craft DOES become a part of the final OBJECT..but the pure artist can either just draw or just paint or draw AND paint and sell both in the gallery! now you will excuse me, i am going to my darkroom!!

    i have said this before and i will say it again..the discussion over b&w and color and the discussion of digi vs film are the two biggest wastes of group mental energy and discussion of all time…they are personal decisions…all equal…for heavens sake, i vote to get on with it!!

  • Go David go….
    I feel your passion…..

  • Also, what are “fake borders?”

    Excellent question, Michael. The invisible lines separating people, perhaps?

  • “hating” or rejecting/preferring a Samsung camera over a Nokia one or an apple vs Sanyo /onkyo/ Panasonic / Carl zeiss or Olympus vs Nikon vs Pentax , mentax, cheddar vs Gouda erc…Blah blu blo blin blun.. balloni.. No substance ..
    Since when a semi conductor on a camera circuit will dictate quality?
    Well… When substance gone then all is left is camera gear..
    And the “I prefer Samsung vs apple ” argument for me reminds me the old fashioned canon vs Nikon argument..
    Bullshit! Canon vs Nikon? Oh please ! How about none of the above.. How about a Nokia with a zeiss lens or an iPhone !!!
    And remember , nobody forces anyone to use filters like hip dramatic Etc,,
    No no no.. Shoot as it comes STRAIGHT OUTTA YOUR PHONE..
    btw.. INSTAGRAM is JUST a sharing feature.. NOT a cheap photoshop version et all…
    Do not worry my purists friends..
    It’s ( INSTAGRAM ) is “clean”…
    The advantage over any SLR though is that since the phone lacks a mirror the results in slow speeds are highly unpredictable and that’s PURE FUN!!!!

  • panos authentic!!! see my link above

  • “..the discussion over b&w and color and the discussion of digi vs film are the two biggest wastes of group mental energy and discussion of all time…”

    Hey, I totally agree with this.

    But wasn’t John’s original point that taking a digital photo and sticking a film negative border around it – that wasn’t there in the first place – a bit disingenuous? I mean, yeah I can get some nifty software to do that but would I really want to? And why? I have no idea if that’s been done here, and neither does John, so maybe it was jumping the gun a bit but it does seem a valid point of critique to raise.

    Am I understanding this discussion correctly? It’s a bit unclear spanning a couple of threads as it is.

  • Man, for sure, with this discussion you guys have lost the attention and interest of those two luscious young Ukrainian gals who were making themselves so available on the front porch! You blew it! When will you get another chance like that?

  • In definite agreement that tools are tools and heart is heart. One is just the means to showing the other.
    The image is the only thing that really matters but it is interesting to discuss this issue.

    When I think of the term and judging ‘authentic’ it is how true you are to your soul and subject while working …how do we measure that? Well seemingly with our gut unless obvious otherwise. I think this conversation started because borders that imitate 35mm sprockets and perhaps are not from that particular process.

    you know, I liked the bleed-over way back when I was printing in a darkroom. Even then I was questioned on why I was doing it. Whether adding a border for effect adds something to the artistic vision and purpose of the image. I had to justify why I was doing it to more strict minded professors (I am still thankful for the roots they gave me!). No matter how you add it -lab or on computer- you are purposely adding a mistake-ish looking quality for artistic effect, no?

    I added it in then and I think people would do so now because of the feeling of rawness and immediacy that is conveyed. When we allow for those borders to show when actually printing b&w aren’t we making that same artistic decision? purposely adding for effect? Is there anything wrong with that?
    Perhaps because a particular device is readily available?

    Certainly things will always be better with an 8×10, printing in a lab with light and deliciously smelly chemicals. And this adds to specialization perhaps, rarity. I think the spectrum can be wide here. Digital has always been it’s own beast. I’m sure the Lithographers are still pissed about the Talbotype …eh, maybe not:) Where you land on it is a personal decision for one’s own work but shouldn’t we be judging others decisions purely on the work’s overall effectiveness?

    Just adding in the mix…..

  • The prophet Panos… not the virgin imants!

  • a civilian-mass audience

    The virgin PANOS…???

    oime,IMANTS…what are you smoking?:)…I want the same…:)))))))))

    “Any authentic work of art must start an argument between the artist and his audience.”
    Rebecca West (English Writer, 1892-1983)

    P.S THOMAS…are you in Athens?…be ready for delays…strike days ahead…embrace the unexpected!!!
    you know where to find me…

  • Imants….
    I almost peed my pants..:)
    cool ;)


    Ok, let me pick up the worms and get them back into the can!


    We’re not talking about the same thing I think.

    I do so NOT CARE whether a picture is shot on film or digital, what camera was used, if it’s black and white, what it is printed on, if at all.. in fact, the only photograph hanging right now in my home is a colour one, I have absolutely no idea if it’s digi or film, I love it, it’s on my wall.. and defending it against family, ’cause it’s not even sharp, go figure. Next one I will mount and frame is by Kyunghee Lee, black and white, no idea if digital or film. I love the photograph, that’s why I bought it and why I will put it on the wall.

    What my comment was about is what Tom Hyde points out (“But wasn’t John’s original point that taking a digital photo and sticking a film negative border around it – that wasn’t there in the first place – a bit disingenuous?”). And I would have no problem with that either, if the billions of pictures we see around and are manipulated, either through hipstagram or adding the borders or filters or what not, were not ‘looking’ all the same.. I do not say they ARE the same, but the look of them is the same.. there was a time when we were inundated with war hipsta pics, it was a trend, and the look was the same.

    With so many possibilities, what I wonder is why so few do take advantage of them and create their own thing? If you are an artist, take whatever you need and MAKE IT YOURS. Just adding a filter or a border is, to me, the cheapest solution, especially if you do it because it’s hip.

    Now, those wondering about the border, the fake border thing.. ever seen a film strip? If I put a neagive under my enlarger lens between glass I have to decide where to set the border, I can use either a frame on the ground plate to put over the paper, or I can use the movable things in the enlarger head by sliding them forth and back. Both of these options will make me TAKE OFF something, either only the border, or cropping the photograph. Or, as in my case, I use a negative carrier, which is slightly larger than the negative itself, thus a small black border will show up when printing.. (which, to me, and only to me, is important, it is proof that the whole negative is printed, means that I got it right IN camera.. again, that only matters to ME, MY way of seeing photography, what others do is none of my business). On the other hand, if I open a digital file in the computer, there’s no border at all. If I want one, I have to ADD it, it is NOT THERE to start with, it is the opposite of what happens under the enlarger, I do not decide what to take off, but what to add.

    That’s all fine, everything goes. But it is not the same. And that’s fine as well, it would be boring otherwise. The only problem I have with all this is when technic overrides, when it becomes more important than the eye. If a photograph (in this case, but counts for every artform) is strong enough by itself, it will stand. And for that, the eye is the only thing that counts. I think that is what the photographer on the essay was talking about when he said ‘authenticity’, not the process, but the intent.

    I do think I’m lucky to know what works for myself, what I feel comfortable with, what I can stand behind. And that counts for me, and me only. It doesn’t matter, not for the photographs I take, not for others. It is my personal need and choice.

  • For the writers out there:

    Borderlands: Call for Proposals

    Deadline: February 6th, 2012

  • CIVI,
    kali mera!

    YES! I am in ATHENS. now every week from Mondays to Thursdays until March.
    Tonite I’m bound, but usually the evenings are free.
    5-to-9 going to a new chapter.

  • THOMAS.. YAY!!!

    Abele.. homegrown family snapshots :D

  • a civilian-mass audience

    THOMAS…i am gonna wear my silver pan…facing west(the one that JIM gave me few years ago)…:)
    we will meet…!!!

    EVA…wait…don’t put all the worms back in the can…I need some for my baby chickens…
    they are vegetarians too…love you!!!

    Can someone open the windows…?:)))))))))

  • Tom Hyde. Yes , you are correct. I was asking the question on a hunch.
    David. Yes I meant the hipstamatic. and Eva is right, this was NOT about digi vs film.

  • a civilian-mass audience

    and JOHNYG…we love you!!!


    sorry, i did digress a bit bringing up digi vs film argument but honestly is pretty much the same discussion about whether or not traditional tech is more valid than new tech…or, in this case about the “varieties” of manipulation….manipulation is manipulation…

    if all three of you were standing in front of my camera in a line a equidistant (which i would dearly cherish) , and i chose right there on the spot to leave out of the frame young Tom and the picture is just now only Eva and John, then i have manipulated the reality which stands before me…Young Tom is not “there” because i moved the camera a half inch to the left…it is a lie that Young Tom is not there…a cold manipulation of fact…but Young Tom has on a red shirt and both Eva and John are wearing blue, so i crop Young Tom OUT…gone…i am doing blue monochromes, so the red shirt is manipulated out…Young Tom is a real person, a great guy, deserves to be represented, but he is out..wrong shirt.


    waiting for the light to get “right”…choosing a longer lens to throw out the background…”fake borders” (real film borders are a very old manipulation)…we select…we eliminate…we choose…whether to shoot this direction or that direction is in theory a manipulation of the “reality”…

    since we cannot damn it manipulate actual life, our real lives, we manipulate the pictures we take to represent life…we come up with all sorts of philosophies to justify this or that, but let’s get real here…photography is not real…life in front of you is real…and everything you do with your camera the minute you take it out of the bag is a manipulation…glory halleluja we are FREE to create…yes, yes, this is WHY we do this…

    it is just easier with an iPhone!!

    and i do love all three of you whatever you are wearing….

    abrazos, david

  • David, good points, but manipulation can go far beyond what you describe. For example, you could take that photo of John, Eva and Tom, then select their outlines in photoshop and composite them in front of Niagra Falls. As art, so what? As journalism, a definite no-no. In between, well, I think that goes to Gladdy’s point. Perhaps it’s okay if you acknowledge the manipulation but one can easily argue that if you try to pass it off as an actual photo of the three in front of the falls, then it is inauthentic, to say the least. How would you feel about an essay in which the people were shot in front of a green screen, the backgrounds shot separately, like in India or somewhere, and then the two composited together? As a publisher, would you conceivably run something like that. If so, would you expect to be told that the photos were composited? Would you inform the audience?

  • MW..

    ahhh yes, good discussion…i think we are talking about two different kinds of “authentic”….if journalistic “truth” is the issue, then yes that is another story…perhaps my brush strokes were too broad….just like in any bookstore, one must have categories…fiction, non fiction etc…the setting for the presentation is part of the presentation.. a photo in Time Magazine is different than a photo in Aperture…editors DO have the responsibility, as you suggest, to label photoshopped art…yet still THEY , the editors of Time , are manipulating in the broad sense by their choice of totally “non manipulated” pictures, words, cover shot, etc…all a matter of degree and interpretation i suppose…

    FYI, go back and do a bit of retro homework on the OJ Simpson picture on the cover of Time..when he was on trial…that is a textbook case discussing a part of this dialogue

  • Ahhh, David..

    Nono, still talking about different things I think.. PLUS! I got my Eta Beta* trousers on and hand a blue shirt over to Tom.. wanna have him in the picture too ;)


  • And wait a sec.. we can not manipulate our lives?? We do nothing else all day, manipulate our lives.. at least those that LIVE and not only vegetate! By every decision we take we do so! Either that or I do not understand what you mean..

  • EVA

    well we TRY to manipulate our lives of course…at least i do, and you do too…and we certainly can tweak things a bit for sure…but there is a certain amount of fate in there…not sure the proportions…i just cross my fingers, light a candle, make sure my good luck charms are with me, and hope for the best, and well work really hard!!

  • David..

    Now I can agree.. and you know, it’s a real pleasure to be here, with you and all those that care and hang out here!

    Ok.. I better go to do that last ‘work really hard’ part!

  • David, Interesting that the Washington Post is getting some scrutiny for using HDR on an image as this discussion is once again unfolding here on Burn.

  • Even the sheer act of taking a photo is editing. By filtering the situation through your mind and deciding to take that particular image rather than something else is actually a type of editing. Cheers :-)

  • EVA

    i re read everything you wrote…and i do not disagree with any of it, yet maybe we have slightly different conclusions even based on agreement of the same set of facts…hell, that happens….in any case I LIKE (and take pride in) the fact that my work is full frame and no photoshop…film or digi….does anybody care? don’t know and i don’t care back…it is just my thing….just like you like the way you work, i like the way i work, and yet none of THAT matters artistically…it is motive, not end result…anyway we could go around and around with subtle semantic differences and i am 99% sure we would come to very close the same summation…

  • Doing homework.. not only OJ Simpson, not only digital manipulation (I also remember the missing thumb on Dorothea Lange’s picture):

  • I feel really bad that tom had a red shirt on and got left out of the picture. :)

  • David..

    Thank you for helping put back most worms into the can.. those missing, well, Civi’s chicken will take care of them ;)

  • I only feel bad about the red shirt.


    can’t go wrong with black…dresses up , dresses down, gets you anywhere in town…

  • Tom… red is not nearly as authentic as black! ;^}

  • EVA

    putting worms back into cans has been a lifelong effort…usually because i am the one who let the worms out of the can in the first place…

  • And yet, red is still better than white if you’re in a blacklight lit Bangkok joint. I think I may have blinded everyone there. Yep, Johnny Cash way to go.

  • i’ll tell you what really depresses me…..

    and angers me…

    and lay at the heart of why i rarely write at Burn anymore….it’s the bloody arrogance and the almost ridiculous nature with which photography and photographers are spoken about here…

    this conversation, case in point….

    do any of you know Diarmait?….do any of you know what film he uses (though normally I couldn’t give a ratt’s ass about this, but since it seems to be part and fucking parcel to this absurd conversation about authenticity)?…do you know that in fact he hand prints his pictures…and thus the frames….that he exhibited this work in print size of 8×10, printed himself?….

    and what happens here?….one person suggests that he sees Diarmait’s series as potentially being shot in digi (and if it were, fuck all, who cares) and then ‘tricked’ by printing as rebate ….or worse now, which has been suggested, printed/worked with a software that mimics the tonality and texture and grain of b/w….like a bloody amateur tea club talking about the great shit they plan to do meanwhile plodding and sodding of others…

    and I AM surprised with John…a man who continually speaks about beautiful prints, hangs them on the wall, proudly and talks about that and yet is the first person to jump in here…and then eva with her pride about printing in her own darkroom…well…i’m not as old as john or david, and i have used film long enough and printed in darkrooms long enough to see the distinction….and even it were digi with software frames, who cares….

    but, because we happen to have a mutual friend, though i haven’t met Diarmait personally, i can tell you this simple thing: he shoots with film, he prints the damn things by hand…and that fact that this takes the route of accusation (1st) and then banter (2nd) and then plods on to a conversation about what is authentic, a few above suggesting that their soup is in fact more authentic because they’re honest about what they do?…on inferences from that being that what Diarmait has done is not…

    won’t even jump into the nonsensical conversation about what is authenticity, particular in a discussion of photography, but y’all would do well to look Diarmait in the eye, directly, for one…rather, have a listen to him… 23:00 he talks about working with film, printing etc….

    bloody hell…

    Comments/commentators/opinions more important here than the photographers themselves if often seems to me….and i feel partly responsible for that with all i’ve written over the last 3 years….

    just incredibly depressing….reflect upon this inane discussion and particularly those who suggested that his work was somehow inauthentic because it was posing as ‘film’ etc….

    take a good hard look at what drives you to do this…and banter off….

    i wonder…

    best of luck

  • Bob
    Don’t let it depress you
    Anger you….
    It’s just dialogue…
    Web communication is tricky….
    It’s all
    And that’s a beautiful thing……

  • Bob there is a bit of confusion with the authenticity comments some comment on the digital/film aspect
    others like me were referring to his statement
    “Authenticity is what I’m striving for. I only want to work in a territory that I’m intimately familiar with. The raw material of the work is natural, but as soon as an image is made it becomes a kind of fiction. I find that tension between truth and fiction, objectivity and subjectivity, to be endlessly fascinating.”……… I don’t mind the statement but the authenticity part is a pie in the sky

  • the digital/film aspect……… as stupid as should one take drugs orally or via a needle

  • Bob, pull yourself together lad. ‘tsallgood

  • Bob..

    I occasionally, rarely and for a very short time, take pride when I see what my kids, coming from the place they come (and that includes having me as their mom, more of a hinderance than anything else) achieve in life. That’s it about pride.

    I can’t see where John or I have accused anyone of anything, we’re not on trial, questioning what one does or why (as in questioning oneself, not others) to me is a positive thing, keeps the mind open.. having opinions doesn’t mean one is arrogant.. and I’m almost sure I’m older than John.

  • …and im almost sure bobs older than both of us.

    And bob, I said ” please tell me im not seeing….” and you have just told me.
    Whats your problem? Are you always the rest of the worlds dad?

    A question was asked. Some statements (for and against) were made. and now the question is seemingly answered.
    Everybody learns something new about themselves or the the world.

    …..and for the record, I still think them borders is odd. Doable, I guess, if you are using a contact frame or just two bits of glass without a holder…but odd nonetheless.

  • Just put up my latest post in my Loft Workshop series, titled,

    David Alan Harvey Workshop, entry 9: Riding down Humiliation Road with nothing to show for myself, I watched as some superb essays came together; a few drops of rain fell upon my camera

    Here is the master link to it and all those before it and those still to be done (close to the end now):

  • Sometimes, when I write and proofread, I think I have written a word, sentence, or phrase that I have actually left out and do not catch because my mind includes it even though it is not there. I did that tonight not on a a word, but one of my workshop peers, who I had in my head as I went down the list putting in names and projects, but that peer is there now

  • Bill. The Universe sure was testing you out that week. Cant wait to hear how it finished up.

  • Bob, if it really does make you that angry and depressed to read people talking about photography, you probably should stay away from the comments. It’s really not worth negatively affecting your health over. I’m not being snarky, I enjoy most of your comments, but to let it affect you irl? Not worth it.

    It’s too bad for those who get published here though. I’m sure your positive, to put it mildly, comments on people’s essays is one of the best things about being published on Burn for many. It would be nice if you could continue doing that and shut out all the rest, but you should really do what’s best for you.

  • I couldn’t give fucking crap if it was photoshopped or shot with film. The frames keep bothering me, they grate on me and distract me from the images. Slight blemish on a beautiful and personally highly inspiring set of pictures. Why inspiring to me? Because I get the impression these are all single images which the photographer has slowly taken over time and masterfully thought of an idea/theme to make an essay. Masterful to me because I as of yet haven’t accomplished, this simple feat.
    BTW image 17 and 18 have exactly the same borders and I mean EXACTLY the same. Does it matter? NO

    And I want Bob back here I miss his words. :)

  • Ok.. who feels like it, got to picture 11 of the essay, and open a new tab with this link and compare the two:

    In my opinion, the picture works much much better if it stands alone, in the link posted. That is what I mean when I say ‘technic is overriding the picture’.. and little does it matter if it is analogue or digital. That does not mean that one thing or the other is better, generally speaking. I only express MY preferences.

  • BOB…

    i think we all feel the same here from time to time….but again, here is just here…it is just us…this family….this extended family….you can get mad at your family, and stomp out the door..we have all done it i am sure…i mean those closest to me, my sons, my mom, my brother, etc often say things that just don’t make sense to me…they see something totally different or have interpreted differently and then SAY something that is just CRAZY…yes, my mom too!!

    so there are those who may be against us out in the cold cruel world…but those folks are not HERE…your friends are here Bob….you are an integral part of this dysfunctional family….and Bob Black comments ARE a Burn mainstay….

    i could go on, but i really do have to write this OBX text…it is short but it has to be right on…not for THEM, but for me….

    all is good Bob…we can chat by phone in a couple of days…OR you can come to new york and help with Rio on the wall…and we can talk about Loomings which will be upcoming soonest….after all,this will be your most important comment…your work….just focus on your work…the rest of us can just chat away about this and about that…as Michael says , nobody wants Burn to somehow be detrimental to your health….i want the opposite for you and for everyone…

    you know damn well that if Eva and John and you and i were sitting at a sidewalk cafe right now, there would be no problem…there would only be an electric good vibe…right?

    ok, gotta run amigo…please enjoy this day…the world is chaos…but please find some solace here with us…your very imperfect friends and family….

    cheers, abrazos, david

  • Digital photography is cheap, bland, store bought instant soup. Film is like a lovingly crafted gourmet meal. You know, more “authentic.” And oh yeah… Fake borders! Authenticity! That’s what we need!


  • Now you’re just making shit up to try and re-kindle the fire….cheap shot.
    lets move on to something more Important maybe

  • BOB BLACK. Do you have an email? I have an olive branch here I would like you to see and need to post it to you…..Skype will do at a pinch….or you can ignore this and I will have to drink the bottle of 10 year old Bushmills single malt that I have been saving for when we meet, all by myself :)))))

    Come to think of it…..ignore this :)

  • Hello, everyone…

    Anything pressing I should just absolutely catch up on, or should I just look at the pictures and start reading from here?

  • Andrew, nothing life-changing, just look at the pictures.

  • Eva…

    Yes I agree, works so much better, but of course that is just so personal. As far as I’m concerned this work is of such a high quality it needs nothing extra.

  • Andrew,

    Status quo. Another drive by rant by Bob

  • It sure felt like it, John. In fact, it still does…

  • a civilian-mass audience

    Can I sing Now?

  • a civilian-mass audience

    I am busy …working out there…IMF is here…got to pay some bills…Yes,BILL,FROSTY…
    I will be paying some visit to your home too…

    I LOVE YOU ALLLLL…be healthy,be strong..keep arguing …keep the flames on…keep coming back…
    keep telling it as it is…keep it real…keep it humble…
    and always,always…remember:

    the journey…that what it counts!
    where is my ouzo MTFS*???

    *my true friends

  • Good, Civi… waiting for you.

    Cats wait, too.

  • What happened?
    Wikipedia protested SOPA and PIPA by blacking out the English Wikipedia for 24 hours, beginning at midnight January 18, Eastern Time. Readers who came to the English Wikipedia during the blackout were not able to read the encyclopedia. Instead, they saw messages about SOPA and PIPA, encouragement to contact their representatives, and links to share information on social media.
    What are SOPA and PIPA?
    SOPA (the “Stop Online Piracy Act”) and PIPA (the “Protect Intellectual Property Act” ) are bills in the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, respectively. These bills are presented as efforts to stop copyright infringement committed by foreign web sites, but in our opinion, they do so in a way that would disrupt free expression and harm the Internet. Detailed information about these bills can be found in the Stop Online Piracy Act and PROTECT IP Act articles on Wikipedia (which remained available during the blackout). GovTrack lets you follow both bills through the legislative process: SOPA on this page, and PIPA on this one. The Electronic Frontier Foundation, an organization that advocates for the public interest in the digital realm, has summarized the flaws in these bills, and the threats to an open, secure, and free Internet.
    Why did the blackout happen?
    Wikipedians chose to black out the English Wikipedia out of concern that SOPA and PIPA would severely inhibit people’s access to information. The bills would reach far beyond the United States, and affect everyone around the world.
    Why? SOPA and PIPA would put the burden on website owners to police user-contributed material and call for the unnecessary blocking of entire sites. Small sites won’t have sufficient resources to defend themselves. Big media companies may seek to cut off funding sources for their foreign competitors, even if copyright isn’t being infringed. Foreign sites will be blacklisted, which means they won’t show up in major search engines. And, SOPA and PIPA build a framework for future restrictions and suppression.
    Does this mean that Wikipedia itself is violating copyright laws, or hosting pirated content?
    No, not at all. Some supporters of SOPA and PIPA characterize everyone who opposes them as cavalier about copyright, but that is not accurate. Wikipedians are knowledgeable about copyright and vigilant in protecting against violations. We spend thousands of hours every week reviewing and removing infringing content as it is posted, and educating new contributors about copyright law. We are careful about it because our mission is to share knowledge freely. To that end, all Wikipedians release their own contributions under a free license. Free licenses are incompatible with copyright infringement, and so infringement is not tolerated.

  • How could SOPA and PIPA hurt Wikipedia?
    SOPA and PIPA threaten Wikipedia in many ways. For example, in its current form, SOPA could require Wikipedia to actively monitor every site we link to, to ensure it doesn’t host infringing content. Any link to an infringing site could put us in jeopardy of being forced offline. The trust and openness that underlies the entire Wikipedia project would be threatened, and new, restrictive policies would make it harder for us to be open to new contributors.

  • I woke up with a big smile today… here is why:

  • and speaking about “dysfunctional families”… its global…

  • anyway, since everyone asleep, see ya all later

    big hugz


    i am awake…your latest set of pictures on Venice Beach are just amazing…looking forward to getting your book rolling….gonna be a great one….

  • I have one more batch of photos nobody seen yet … Not even me actually .. About 4 gig.. Not much but “something” good is “hiding” there I know…
    Yes I’m Ready for the Birth of Venice.. I’m “pregnant” now for quite a while.. Hopefully sooner than later..

    In the meantime , Lola Da Dogg is funny and sending happy thoughts to ALL..

  • Lola says hello back to you Gordon!

    awesome Thodoris…i personally stopped worrying when i came to this realization:

    smile ya’ll !

  • First, I have no clue what Bob is talking about. Second, I don’t care. I am in my first week or so without significant pain and so all is right with the world. I even managed to drive myself to work today and see what has been going on here for the first time in two months. Problems and complications still abound, but all in all, it looks like we’re turning a corner here. After two months of pain and basic cable, life seems to be getting better. I am, however, probably much better at Wheel of Fortune now than I have ever been in my entire life. I am not sure if this should worry me.


    WHAT HAPPENED?????????

    DID WE IMAGINE IT?????????



    I want to say sorry…but im kinda not

  • John didnt u get the prints through the mail?
    i thought i saw Eva’s print on the wall…didnt i? in yo movie?

  • if u mean what happened to the “unsold” prints?
    they are (for the time being) with me… hopefully, if its cost allowed, the prints should/could be moved to Sydney..but too early for that..

  • i posted while ago a list of people who sold a photo ( i still have your prints here btw ) , we sold a few, photogs got privately emailed…75% donated their share back to Burn, and we hope we can do some more private shows to local collectors till prints make it (if possible, not decided yet yet- coz it was never part of the original plan anyways- to Sydney Australia)
    so, its a great question indeed..
    CASE NOT CLOSED YET,…still collecting(the gallery) the final cash…

  • So , John ., once again, youre kinda pissed?
    over WHAT exactly?
    did you or did you not get your CharlesP’s and Eva’s prints ok/safely by the mail?
    (again, im sure i saw Eva’s print framed at your wall couple days ago)
    so whats exactly the situation here amigo?

  • Akaky, I did find your absence lately a bit weird… get well man…

    Gordon, the Apple thing does look like a game changer…

    Panos, I suspect John is referring to the post you had promised to make after all was said and done, about the whole thing…

  • What’s this about prints and sale and some left?

    Someone enlighten me, please, so I don’t have to wade through pages of archives to piece it all together…

  • Thodoris i posted, couple months ago the names of the participants and list of the sold ones…i also posted my ideas / conclusions etc.. gotta dig back in the comments though.
    Andrew B, i thought u participated in the Burned Garden didnt you! im not certain..the list of the participants was long…very long!!!

  • What i was hoping for more sales and A NEW SECOND PARTY/OPENING around xmas which didnt really happened! I think John is referring to my idea for a SECOND gallery party…in a gallery that wouldnt charge us the 30% but that this hasnt unfortunately happened yet ..Havent given up yet to find that worthy space though…not yet :)
    Yeah, im sure John is referring to that SECOND TRY, SECOND CHANCE. in a new gallery..Still looking for that 2nd chance also..

  • AKAKY,

    It’s great to read that you are doing better! Wishing you all the best :-)

  • Panos;

    No, I missed the burn garden, evidently. was kind of a whirlwind summer and fall.

    What’s a burn garden?? Shoot, seems I missed something very cool…..

  • Here you go, Andrew. Panos (and his lovely wife, Kim) did a huge solid for Burn!

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