i have been suggesting recently that it might be easier for discussion here if all comments came under Dialogue…this seems to be the right time to give it a try….as with all things, it is timing, timing and timing….
when i read Laura El Tantawy’s comment under the Chiara Tocci “selected single”, it seemed perhaps this was the right time to publish her essay “Fervent Spirits” which has been “sitting on my desk” now for awhile….i have closed comments directly under her essay , but i am wishing that it works for all of you to simply comment on Laura’s essay right here, and comment on the two singles by Chiara Tocci and Stephen Burrows in the context of a “whole”….after all, they seem quite related….
certainly history and the results of history play into everything we do and all that we believe to be true….truth is the mantra of journalists, but i think we can see clearly that there are many ways to unlock our minds and our vision and to accept the myriad of styles and juxtapositions a photographer might employ to get to the meat of history via the present….
we are bombarded daily with news…”breaking news”…pretty hard to keep up….television does not give us much time to think things through despite the incredible advantage of being in the NOW…however, our “stills”craft does allow for reflection….this is not to take away at all from those who devote their lives to bringing us daily knowledge of world events….journalists pay with their own blood almost everyday in this pursuit..but, here we have something else…a certain poignancy of “behind the scenes”…..the results of history, the effects of politics and , of course, religious context always (against it’s own will ) becomes embroiled in both…
my questions for you are simple…..does “news” affect the way you think about history or do you prefer written “think pieces” to help you shape your thoughts?? is photography just in it’s infancy as a language and can it editorialize the way words do?? do photographs which exist only because of their historical context help us coalesce our collective conscience and “sensitize” us to help us move into a new day???
I am certain that we are entering into an era that is more visual than ever before, and I strongly believe in photography as a language, and a universal language at that. This becomes ever more important as the pace of our society continues to speed up, and our world cultures continue to come into contact with each other, often blending.
Yes- photography can editorialize, and it will! Photojournalism/Photography may yet have the strongest role to play in the days ahead!
It’s truly exciting if you think about for even a second…and it all flows with the passion we hold here and now!
-Jeremy
Alas, David, your sense of timing and mine were not in sync this time. I had just spent a half hour writing a heartfelt response to Stephen’s photo of Auschwitz. I clicked on submit and it was gone. “Comments are closed,” it said. I am too tired to try again. I’ll return tomorrow when I feel more fresh…
Patricia
as a history major, it’s always been the written “think pieces” that predominantly shaped my thoughts but as someone who’s life has been directly affected by a “news” event, the “news” has unfortunately taken over…
… but i do believe in the power of the photograph as a “think piece”.
DAVID.
I was almost asleep last night when a (pretty good I think) idea came…
Under Work In Progress ( which I no longer see in the right column BTW) …
How about taking us thru YOUR work in progress from time to time???
I KNOW, Burn is not for you, it’s for us, etc. etc. (imagining what you will say) :))
BUT I must tell you I took a class with Norman Mauskopf a couple years back where along with critiquing our work he took us thru his process with his latest book as he was working on it..Showing us his editing, sequencing, feedback from his editor, the whole process. It was extremely valuable as a learning tool and hopefully good for him as well.
Whadya think?
ps I came up with a great new project idea. Very excited about it. Did some preliminary work on it today.
pss Wasn’t there another new essay here earlier today that was taken down? I definitely saw it. Am I hallucinating? :))
“…my questions for you are simple….” Ha ha, that’s pretty funny, David!
“…does ‘news’ affect the way you think about history or do you prefer written ‘think pieces’ to help you shape your thoughts??”… Not exactly sure what you mean… but what this question brings to mind indirectly is this thought: that given enough age, experience, and perspective, ‘news’ is history… I perhaps shouldn’t generalize from personal experience, but younger people seem to see more of a separation between ‘news’ and ‘history’… when I was younger even though I was acutely aware of history, psychologically I related to it as something distinct from what was happening ‘now’… but having directly participated in a number of eras, times, events, and incidents which were ‘only news’ at the time but are now clearly seen as history, I am much more aware that it all becomes history very quickly, that in fact in large part I ‘am history’ and soon I will not only be completely ‘history’ but will also be ‘out of here’ as they say. I realize this is not the answer to the question you asked, but it seems very relevant to me.
“…is photography just in it’s infancy as a language…” I think not… maybe post-adolescence? Or, I think one could make an equally good case that photography is already having a ‘mid-life crisis’… we’ve had 150 years of photography so far and 100 years of photo magazines, photo advertising, and photo propaganda… and now with the digital revolution we not only have made taking pictures almost effortless (and virtually free), but likewise their reproduction and distribution… this will eventually change everything. What does appear to me to still be in its infancy is the ability of people to consciously think about and articulate what is going on in photographs… with all the myriad schooling we get in written forms of communication and literature, I find it a real distortion that in most countries and most school systems very little attention is given to visual literacy… Unless you specifically take courses in photojournalism, film, or art history, the subject is almost completely neglected… whereas everyone is expected to learn grammar, writing, literature, and speech in general education. There’s something very imbalanced about that, especially when you consider that written and spoken languages are so specific to particular nations and cultures, while visual languages are much more universally accessible.
“…can it editorialize the way words do??”
Of course… every picture editor knows this! (Jim??)
“…do photographs which exist only because of their historical context help us coalesce our collective conscience and “sensitize” us to help us move into a new day???” Not to sound too facetious, but if you look at it from one perspective, ALL photographs “exist only because of their historical context”… I mean, somebody had to be there and choose to click the shutter, right? And then choose to develop, print, or download and save the image… But aside from that, to directly respond to the intent of the question… that is certainly a popular idea… but if you read Susan Sontag’s later book on photography, she argues just the opposite (among other things), that photographs tend to de-sensitize us. For me, it’s an open question.
OK David, my questions for you are even simpler…! And I will try to call you Wednesday morning to get the answers….
Cheers,
Sidney
Sidney:
“What does appear to me to still be in its infancy is the ability of people to consciously think about and articulate what is going on in photographs… with all the myriad schooling we get in written forms of communication and literature, I find it a real distortion that in most countries and most school systems very little attention is given to visual literacy”
amen to that!
kat~
i think people see what they want to see..
photography as document, editorial and opinion does have an effect on us all – especially those of us embroiled in producing them – and perhaps the written history and photography blend to compliment each other.
however, an opposite argument can be founded for most historical events.. some are just plain wrong – holocaust deniers such as the catholic priest in the news recently – but however wrong the opinion people will still only see what they want to see.
as a sensual tool i think photography can do a great deal in illustrating and educating about the world around us.. and as such i think more emphasis needs to be placed on this new language within the school framework. visual language is such a force today and the majorities ignorance of it´s power to illustrate, inform and even manipulate is something i would love to see change.
in addition to photography and the written word informing us about history i also think films – Hollywood or wherever – have always been used.. in many instances they have the power to manipulate and editorialize just as much as photos and text.. from the staged newsreel footage of WW1 to saving private ryan.
the fictionalization of history in films could be the more powerful editorial tool perhaps.. with millions viewing a film and taking it as given that the facts held therein are accurate and represent reality, especially if the circumstance of the film is historically important.
of course film makers have no more responsibility than a historian nor photographer on educating to the whole story – we only see what we want to see – and so what it all comes down to might only be individual perspectives, which gather together.. which form the consensus of though or national consciousness which you mention david.
something which i am not certain effects the consensus of thought too much is rolling news.. 24hour stories pass too quickly to be thought about.. the news repeats itself every hour until something ´new´ happens and historical stories (gaza) soon fall off the front page when another celebrity drops their handbag.
there is a line in waking life which mentions the news.. i like it..
paraphrased it goes something like…
´the news is not there to inspire change or action, it is there to help us accept the worlds wrongs´..
if that is true then i think photography, text and perhaps film has the greatest effect.. with film being the most popular.. perhaps it is hollywood who is doing most to represent history in a form most can accommodate.
who knows.. not me..
a huge question.. a good question to think on and so i shall for the rest of the day while tackling the more mundane aspects of living, and may post again later once this initial blast of thoughts on the subject has settled a little.
david
which will form the greater consensus as to what slum living is like – ´slumdog millionaire´ or ´the places we live´?
to be frank neither conveys the full remit of tastes, smells.. the shock of seeing such places is but a scratch compared to living in these places..
which, though, will most people take as their mental reference for slum living?
i would hope jonas´ work.. but unable to impose that on the majority for obvious reasons, consensus will weave it´s own way.. and perhaps the next depressed celebrity story will hold more interest for many living in the minority world which we do..
sad, though it is.
television news is ‘news lite” especially now that we have 24 hour news programes. Instead of giving us in-depth considered information we are treated to 30 minute repeats. So yes, I prefer written think pieces.
“Is photography just in it’s infancy as a language and can it editorialize the way words do?” Can’t say if its in it’s infancy as I / we don’t know what will come next. As a language it has the power to shape our thinking much more than words (sorry Bob). Can you bring to mind iconic photographs from the Vietnam war? Yes? How about a written sentence?
“coalesce our collective conscience and “sensitize” us to help us move into a new day???” Difficult one David. On one hand we see photographs in daily life and although we may be individually moved by them they don’t seem to spur us into a particular collective action. Over time the message contained in photographs can be a catalyst for change – like on voting day!
Best wishes,
Mike.
History is very rarely more than a collection of half truths, revisionist propaganda and conjecture. No lessons are ever really learned from it. None that are acted upon anyway except to justify yet another ideology. The mapping of history is NOT the mapping of US. We have not changed in any way other than the scale of our delusions of ourselves and our IMPORTANCE to the world. We are now as we were when we started. And that is the only real lesson to learn from the past. We keep it alive only to keep out the fear of the dark. Our history is our collective fire if you like, as are our religions and totems and fetishes. A collection of symbols passed from one generation to the next.
With that in mind, what are our images in all this but yet more symbols?
what do they have to offer that is ultimately unchallengeable?
Of course the answer is nothing. They merely mark time. They lay out our hopes and fears and ideals and become part of the continuum of symbolic references we nail our identity to.
“There is no salvation except in knowing there is no salvation” someone once said, and I tend to believe that.
Does any of this relate in any way to the questions david posed? Probably not. But it did pop into my head and found its way here so I guess thats where it belongs.
It is however how I feel about things and it also informs the way i choose to represent the world I inhabit now. Today. It is all there is, and all there ever was.
Sorry if it rambles a bit
PEACE……whatever that means
JOHN
Mike R ;))))))))….
they’re totally 2 different languages, and ways of expressing…Images shape our ways of ‘thinking’ for sure, or maybe our ways of perceiving….increasingly so as we ‘reflect’ increasingly from images rather than words…but words too are image based, just more abstract…photographs still have alot of catching up to do to reach the benchmark that ‘words’ have ‘achieved’, all the holy books are written or spoken, not distributed via images ;)))….images, though i fear, increasingly (because of our sensation) might loose their power to incite or distill or shape…the irony of their ubiquity: the more we have, the more we turn toward them and yet seem to retreat from their power or their meaning…we rarely digest them, we just lick them up….in this sense, Sidney has brilliant articulated the problem…we are a visually ‘sophisticated’ world, but a visually illiterate one too, most of us havent been taught how to read, reflect, speak about visual things, and we are fundamentally sensorial creatures…as sidney wrote, “find it a real distortion that in most countries and most school systems very little attention is given to visual literacy”….tha’s a problem…and we see it here on Burn often…
as for vietnam….my brain (like many of my generation, im 40) is seared with images from PJG (vietnam inc was the book as a teen that made me want to photograph, along with arbus’ monograph) to burrows to eddie adams to nick ut etc etc….for sure……BUT….there are writers too whove written about Nam that have accomplished as much Michael Herr (dispatches) or the books of tim o’brien or philip caputo or robert stone or tobias wolf or francis fitzgerald….no doubt Nam was a ‘visual’ war….that’s how most Americans (and others) experienced the war, through Television and through Life/Time and later books….Vietnam did for the PJ what WWI and WWII had done for the novelists….no argument there….hard to escape the visceral power of a picture, especially with War…..and you are totally correct about Nam…for sure
but ok, some quotes
“Some people just wanted to blow it all to hell, animal, vegetable and mineral. They wanted a Vietnam they could fit into their car ashtrays.’-michael herr
but that’s hard to compare with one of the photographs that still haunts me to this day…
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3220/2960735314_04a96ebbb7.jpg
and later from PJG
http://tinyurl.com/dc57ys
cheers
bob
following up on my last comment (pending moderation), just this, Murakami’s speech this week upon his acceptance of the Jerusalem Prize
http://fictioncircus.com/news.php?id=295&mode=one
I think breaking news is useful in its ability to immediately inform the viewer on what is happening right now, but without the context and understanding of the long written thought pieces of journalism, breaking news becomes more noise in the air, adding to the everyday din of combating voices we all increasingly hear.
This I think is the argument for why newspapers are still relevant and important. The blogs and breaking news sites have taken much of the weight off the established papers to follow these stories, but without the writers and photographers that have been following events and history over many years, there is no contextual information for UNDERSTANDING why, these events continue to happen. Dissemination of information is at a new frontier, but the analysis and the why is why I still turn to older news sources for what they do best. Explain, contextualize and analyze the noise to bring it into its historic perspective.
“Between a high, solid wall and an egg that breaks against it, I will always stand on the side of the egg.”
bob – just great to read that..
thanks for sharing it here…
and the nb at the bottom of page – ¨The biennial Jerusalem Prize is $2000, which probably didn’t cover the cost of Murakami’s plane ticket.¨..
what a great man..
david
John Gladdy, Nice one – no ramble. I think someone also said that history is written by the winners?
Best wishes, for today,
Mike.
CATHY…
we decided to take “work in progress” behind the scenes with me working with up to 5 photographers via Skype etc…their work will then be presented as an essay here…right now i am working with David Bowen and Jonathan Hanson on their projects….of course, i am still choosing the other three photographers as we speak, so any ideas are welcomed…
BOB…
caffeine only amigo…..
SIDNEY…
i am not so sure that photography is not in its infancy as a LANGUAGE….unfortunately, technology keeps getting in the way and confusing the issue…new forms on the tech side make everyone focus on just that and it often obscures the narrative possibilities..i.e the new cameras that also shoot video make so many suddenly think that mixing video with stills is a good idea, which is so rarely the case…photogs do it because they CAN, but does it really work??? i think we are seeing a lot of really bad mixes of video and stills…usually jarring or just flat out not necessary…. personally i would rather just see a good set of stills mixed with sound, OR a really good film..sorry, i digress…anyway, sophisticated communication is always for a select group of readers for writing as well….New Yorker circulation is only 250,000…..USA TODAY is in the millions…which brings us back to our old subject of mass communication vs. limited audience communication….
just spoke with you on the phone as i was writing this….always a pleasure and will see you soonest in Seattle…
cheers, david
cheers, david
I don’t like this idea where comments are separate from the piece of work I want to discuss.
Bob,
thanks for the Murakami link…
“I have only one reason to write novels, and that is to bring the dignity of the individual soul to the surface and shine a light upon it.” !
SOFIA…
the Harlem Jazz essay by Andrew Sullivan will come back next…we had take it off and work out some technical problems…
it is good to always feel a bit overwhelmed….i always feel overwhelmed by the great work i see around me…it keeps me going… puts a fire in my gut…you should use your feelings of “nothing worthwhile” to get you out the door and pushing pushing pushing and just enjoying the experience of creating…this alone is worthwhile….
i do have one of your essays ready to go here on BURN…as you know , i like to wait for just the right moment!!!
by the way, where do you live?? i was thinking Spain, but just not sure…i will be in Spain for the rest of this month…first, Valencia for Fallas and then Madrid til the end of the month….
cheers, david
DAVID :)))..i hear u amigo :))….dont forget to unlock my 1st post this morning…it’s still in locked/moderation mode :)))…what’s caffeine?? ;))))
DAVID/KAT :))))…YEA, i love Murakami and great for him for doing what he did and wrote :))))
John G: great rant :)))..loved it…
running
bob
Bob,
” After Dark ” has been very inspirational…
JONATHANJK..
i hear you…we are just giving it a try….but imagine trying to discuss these three pictures all separated…the conversation ALWAYS goes away from the picture in about 10 hours or less and off to something else and then where are we?? three different blogs??? why can’t you discuss the piece of work you want to discuss right here..just say ” i like the snow picture, etc etc etc”..in four words you have told us what you are talking about and it sure saves a whole lot of people a whole lot of clicking and scrolling…or does it??? i am listening….
cheers, david
BOB…
how do your comments (and only YOUR comments) get blocked like that?? we have to figure it out..i just happen to be here this morning, but so many times i am just not near a computer to do it…please amigo, make my life easier!!! by the way, when am i in Toronto???
cheers, david
Vis-a-vis Stephen’s photo of Auschwitz, it seems to me that that is the way Auschwitz always looks, even on a bright and sunny day in May.
News is the froth on the surface of the sea; history happens underneath.
those are not simple questions for me..
so hard to articulate my thoughts..
I think of Dorothea Lange’s photo, migrant mother..
the attention,
with Taylor’s text that accompanied it…
and how it lives…
has a life of its own,
a powerful photograph
forever..
*
but.. that woman’s car broke down in Nipomo, CA
it was taken on the side of the road…
she wasn’t a migrant worker, as portrayed…
The family has had lots of issues with the use of the photo..
Sooo….
circles..
all the while….
**
Hi everyone and thanks for all your responses to my work.
I feel I have to explain something more, as it seems that someone has misunderstood my intentions and go too far.
The photograph is part of a series and is the result of my intent to explore and understand how a culture different from mine relate to photography. It’s a project that I realized with a group of Muslim women in South Wales, speaking with them about photography and their levels of comfort in being subjects of my pictures. I did have a wide range of responses and my project together suggests how different Muslims interpret the holy readings. Hope this helps…
DAVID…..
do you remember me???
David :)))
i hear you :))…i think my comments get blocked if i post more than 1 link (this time posted to the pic of monk setting himself on fire and JPG’s pic from vietnam, inc)…i think the same happened to John vink yesterday…so, that’s the secret: i wont post more than 1 link in a comment :)))…
You COME TO TORONTO IN MAY, FOR CONTACT: May 4-May 9….
http://events.magnumphotos.com/magnum-workshop/magnum-workshop-toronto-contact
i’ll call u in 2 weeks…..will send you a digital file of interview early next week: im being shot on vid early next week…
running
hugs
bob
John Gladdy,
I have great sympathy with your philosophical position, which you have laid out very eloquently… the dilemma for most of us is that we nevertheless live within a stream of history… and even if history and its supposed ‘lessons’ are illusory, they affect us because we are surrounded by millions of people who are totally in thrall to those illusions… and we are constantly running into their expectations, demands, and the effects of their actions and beliefs… even if we ourselves try to live in an eternal present of infinite possibilities. What to do?
Bob Black,
Thanks for the link. I am not so much of a Murakami fan, but that is a great speech.
DAH,
Actually, I don’t think that was a digression at all… the problem is that it’s very hard to separate the technology from the communication… photography may have fantastic potential narrative power yet to be unleashed and articulated (?), but it will always be in some way dependent on a technological medium for its exercise… whether you are viewing it on an exhibition wall, in a magazine or book, or on a laptop or a giant wall-mounted flat screen, or a billboard… and that is part of the ‘language’ of visual communication.
Naturally, there’s much more going on inside the actual images… Sophisticated and subtle imagery requires a sophisticated and subtle audience to be appreciated, however… I guess from my perspective, far from being in infancy, we are entering a ‘decadent’ period in photography and film…
David,
I didn’t meant to say that viewing works here doesn’t make me create. On the contrary! What I meant was that I have 2 or 3 personnal subjects unfinished that need funding so that I’m able to finish them, but I don’t think they are really important subjects when I compare them with what’s show here (e.g. the essay of Lisa really wothwhile be funding comparing to some of my subjects like fishermen’s villages disapearing or portuguese rockabillies). Meanwhile I’m always doing small photojournalism essays to make a living, while my personal work holds for better days :)
I live in Portugal, between Spain and the Atlantic Ocean. When do you come to our small country so that we can meet again? I don’t think you remember reviewing my portfolio in Perpignan 2 years ago…it’s been a long time since then. Perhaps you’ll do a workshop in Portugal some day?
I don’t contribute here as much as I used to so take this with that in mind… but I do not get the consolidated comments idea. If I read you correctly David you say that the comments under the specific essay or photo ultimately became too disjointed? Or swerved off subject? How is this supposed to help in that regard?
In any case, this happens in any conversation. Tangents and shit, sure… But for the most part the main thread was about the essay or picture. Now we have this one place and it seems like it’ll just become a true free-for-all. Talking about any and all essays and pictures. If that’s what you’re after, cool. Nevermind. But if not…?
Again, I could be wrong in my take on this new move, but it doesn’t seem to fix a problem. It seems to exacerbate it.
my only real worry with all comments in one place was in part a problem with roadtrips – things moving too fast and huge numbers of comments in one sweep.
with time zones and digression it could be the case that reading through all comments to find the ones which interest might become a job in itself.. whereas with the seperate discussions under work posted and then the more general discussions here made it easy to navigate within a 5 minuet break from being elsewhere occupied.
anyroad.. haveing them all in one place does have it’s benefits as well, which i’m aware of.. so..
DAVID
Maybe it is me and I’m use to the way http://www.slashdot.org arranges their news stories. But I prefer to dip in, and dip out of stories, or as in this case, essays, and single images. I just think it would be too much to enter a discussion with 3 topics of conversation. It would also give me the chance to go back, look at the work above, simply by scrolling up, instead of having to click in and out, or open another web page.
I understand what you’re trying to do, and whatever the decision, I’d roll with it.
What about providing notification icons on past essays that run down the side? That way we can be informed of new comments as they happen, much like a typical Bulletin board system (BBS).
does “news” affect the way you think about history or do you prefer written “think pieces” to help you shape your thoughts??
This may have been said earlier, but I confess I have not have time to read all of the comments.
If I am understanding what you are asking, I think news gets my thought process going and it directs me toward a subject, but the think pieces give the news more depth.
is photography just in it’s infancy as a language and can it editorialize the way words do??
Photography is certainly not in its infancy as a language, and I think it can obviously editorialize. I think
most documentary photographers and photojournalists can tend to editorialize to some point. After all we all have a point if view about the story or subject we are photographing and we are doing so as “we” see them or the subject. We all try to be fair and balanced but there is always going to be a tendency to view a subject from our own internal feelings and that is going to come out in the images.
do photographs which exist only because of their historical context help us coalesce our collective conscience and “sensitize” us to help us move into a new day???
I need to think about that one some more and I really need to get back to work…..
Hey Bob, I knew that you would put up a good defense for words! “photographs still have a lot of catching up to do to reach the benchmark that ‘words’ have ‘achieved’, all the holy books are written or spoken, not distributed via images ;)))” just imagine, Bob, if the camera had been around in Biblical times! So THAT’s what Jesus looked like! he’s not…. EUROPEAN!
“Most of us haven’t been taught how to read, reflect, speak about visual things, and we are fundamentally sensorial creatures…as sidney wrote, “find it a real distortion that in most countries and most school systems very little attention is given to visual” – Yes, it’s true; and it’s about time education caught up with the children.
As for words about Vietnam, I was thinking, particularly, about “news words” as opposed to “considered” books. I’m sure that many thoughtful, descriptive (news) words were written but who can recall them? They should be put large, next to photographs of the War. Photographs compliment words – words compliment photographs. No boundaries.
P.J.G. Vietnam Inc. used words and photography to great effect. I love his work.
For me, “best” (can war have a best) photograph is Larry Burrows …
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0302/lb31.html
Bob, are you aware of Ralph Gibson’s work?
Hope to meet you someday, Bob,
Love to family,
Mike.
Hey Mike :))))
nice parry :))))…i LOVE Burrows…all, the b/w and his later color and the ‘crucifixion/pieta” picture you’ve linked to is not only one of THE iconic images of war and Nam, but for me, one of the 4 or 5 images that are always in my skull when i read books on Nam (along with Nick Ut’s shot of the Kim Phuc and the other children running from their village after the napalm dropping, eddie Adams photograph of General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan executing Nguyễn Văn Lém, Ronald L. Haeberle shots of My Lai, JPG’s shot i linked too and Huet’s shot from below the helicopter), but there are so many photographs and photographers who MADE Nam ‘real’ for me….JPG is one of the books that i hold most dear, because of his use of words and images, an extraordinary document and testimony and also fevered by a moral conviction and tenacity that is uncommon in many photographic monographs. But, my head is bloated with images from that war, and yes, the photographs made it for me, and probably for most of us, for my generation especially, the children of the men and women who went to vientam. My father’s generation, the ones of that generation, still relied on words: stories of the war. And in fact, the stories and the words are what first defined the war for me: as a kid listening to stories my fathers friends told, as a teenager talking to kids from vietnam who survived the war…my town was filled with vietnamese boat children. And, strangely, it is the words that i again and again return to. Last year, i read Tom Bissell’s remarkable book ‘The Father of All Things’ (about his father and vietnam) and this in the beginning of this year i read Andrew X. Pham’s magisterial “The Heaves of Heaven” (a memoir of his father’s life through the 3 wars that carved upon the back and soul of vietnam, the war against the french, the civil war and then the war with the americans) and last year i read Pham’s ‘Catfish and Mandala’….so you see, it is still the words that continue to return for me, again and again and again…but for many of us (americans) that war was defined by photographs and later films…(i cant think of nam without thinking of Apocalypse Now or The Deer Hunter, full metal jacket, coming home…or even the movies which i did not like so much, platoon, hamburger hill, gardens of stone, in country, etc…or all the great documentaries (i think i’ve seen them all)…so my head is filled with imagery….but, alas….i want to share with you part of a great documentary about Vientam, that uses words AND images to make a very important point….
from the extraordinary movie, Dear America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41i9-MqR1Lc
anyway, the problem though is that we are, as Sidney so beautifully articulated, being saturated by images (im a fault maker in this too) but we are visual creatures…even our minds, produce images, and we do get the news, get ideas, get ideas, increasingly through images….and yet, how quick to they vanish…how much time to look at Vietnam Inc.(without reading)….15 minutes, 10 minutes…how much time if you take the time to read it…how long to read Tim O’brien…how much time to read the great books produced by vietnamese writers and their children….after university, i hunted for as many books as i could written by Vietnamese….and i still hunt for these books…and how remarkable….how remarkable those stories are…how INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT they are compared with the images that i grew up with…
if you read ‘The Eves of Heaven” you will never again think the same about the wars….which is not to undercut the remarkable work done by Stone and Smith and Huet and Burrows and PJG and Faas and Tim Page and Capa and Flynn and Huynh Thanh My and McCullen and Chapelle and all the others…it is just that pictures, as our only way to get at things is slippery…just as slippery as words….
and this thing about words…we are visual creatures and we are creatures of story and the funny thing is that, late into the night, most people don’t trouble themselves over what images create, point to them, but they struggle with the stories they’ve been told (what else is god, but the story of ourselves)….that’s the thing…and increasingly, as images pervade, we ironically (or paradoxically) stay with them less and less…we consume more and more and value them less and less and reflect upon them less and less….
I’m a story teller, using both photographs and words….if you ask me truthfully, if i had to desist one or the other, which would i choose….i’d give up my cameras….and talk out into the dark ;)))))
great conversation Mike :))) a very important one :)))
and yes, i know gibson’s work, both the beautiful stuff….and the stuff i dont like much (like this book about pictures of guitars….or women’s breasts/hips/butts ;))…
hugs
bob
Don’t know if anyone else has said this…
Having comments directly under the essay we are discussing makes it a LOT cleaner and easier to refer back to the essay.
When reading Pete’s comment above where he is discussing specific images, I wanted to see the images. It’s possible to get there from here but not as “graceful” as it is when the essay is RIGHT THERE.
I don’t see what’s wrong with commenting directly under the essay. We are still having a conversation about it whether the comments are here or there, right? Why not make it easy?
by the way, i think that it should be an obligation of EVERY american, if they have the means, to make a pilgrimage to each and every nation that that country was involved in a war…at least within my lifetime, i plan to go to vietnam, to iraq, to el salvador and nicaragua and to israel/palestine ….i’ve spent a lot of my life reading about vietnam and creating relationship and friendships with people who served there and who lived there….the truth is i dont want to rely on photographs to teach and tell me things, i want to process that experience throught the stories of others, through the experiences of people whose lives and experiences are different from my own….the sad fact of Vietnam is that most americans still only process the war in terms of the 58,000 americans who died there, without contemplating the 4,000,000 vietnamese who died, or the 1-2 million lao and cambodians drawn in and affected by the war ….staggering tolls of death and loss….is sit any wonder, as a nation, C.America, S.America and Iraq happened….that’s still the problem for me, especially with images, we processes it through our own filters (as i’ve written ad naseum ;) here)….that’s the dilemma….
how to use the language of images to get at the complexity and ambiguity and interpretive complexity that all experience requires, or is, a priori, by definition itself….
photography hasn’t even yet begun to emerge to deal with that, not wholly yet….and maybe, it shall not….
maybe, like McCormac predicts in the The Road, in the cold silence of time, we shall eventually cling to our word-bread for sustenance, for the ‘thinnness’ of images will starve us….
as a photographer, i struggle with this a great deal…
cheers
bob
“McCormac’…fuck, i am tired…i mean: Cormac McCarthy…..god, i got to get off…..
“..yet in the midst of it all, a beautiful thought, gesture, even person can arise among it waving bravely at the death that pours down upon it…and the red flower will crackle up and die among the thorns, yet that flower will always live in the memory…”
David – Great questions. I’m curious; are you implying a distinction between the kind of “photographs which exist only because of their historical context” and a different kind of photograph?
I’m not sure I understand what you mean when you refer to ” photograph which exist only because of their historical context.”
Could you elaborate?
All the best,
Adam
i don’t feel like this is the best format for burn… while i am an advocate of having no comments beneath the photograph or photo essay, perhaps it would work to have a dedicated comments thread for each essay separate to the essay itself.. does that make sense?
i think with this “one thread” approach, burn runs the risk of returning to the old days of “road trip” where its more of a members club – and it’s hard for newcomers to participate. you only have to look at the list of recent commentators to see that this is already beginning to happen.
Ben:
I agree….though i dont think it has much to do with the old days of ‘road trip’…in the sense of members club…i aint a member of noone’s club…just way too talkative, for anyone’s good ;))…same happens with ALL environments (same happens at HCSP or Magnum or Lightstalkers or shit, the watering hole around the corner from our apartment): it’s just a dynamic…but it has nothing to do with some club, for sure….but u r right, i think there should be COMMENTS under photographs/essays…or at least threads dedicated to those…i think what happened here, was in one day, 2 essays, 2 pictures and then a question about history and all kinds of other topics broke out…in this sense, that was RoadTrips…but, well…i dont know any real perfect vehicle to harness (on the web) both pics and conversations….
for me, it’s always, if it aint broke then….
ok, off for 3 days (promise)…photo/writing/family stuff to finish…
running
b
SOFIA….
ahhh, yes, now i remember your are from Portugal, one of my favorite countries…very very different, in a good way, from Spain…Lisbon just has to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world…nice people too!!!
i did totally understand you…and all i was trying to say was to keep your enthusiasm alive….it is such a nice balance to be humble, as you are, and also have the confidence to move forward with gusto…
wishing we meet again soonest….
JONATHANJK
well, i think we are both ready to go with whatever works!! it is very unusual that i would have three different components up at the same time as i do now…it just seemed to me that they were all related…one of my primary goals was to be able to leave an essay up for more than a day or two…as it is now an essay has very little “front page” exposure because the conversation drifts off after the first day…anyway, there is obviously no perfect system…
i looked at slashdot.com …man, we are nothing like slashdot, but i see what you mean…and , again, this time it just so happens that all three pictures are related , or so i thought anyway…now, all of this being said, you never made a comment of any kind on either single or the essay, but have only commented on the comment system!! don’t our “recent comments” in the right column do exactly what you wanted?? i am confused by what you meant on that one…
cheers, david
and i should say that if my extended comments have at all made others feel like this is some club, i will totally stop, …i’m down with that, it’s the last thing i’d ever want to foster an impression of…
’cause im up with burn, real….
said enough, 4 sure
cheers, bob
BEN…
i wish i could get what you are saying , but i just don’t….sorry…how in the world does this way make it more of a “club”?? why would it??? it does not have to be a single thread, you can take it wherever you want..that in fact is the whole point, to take it where you want, but at least we know where you are…so Ben, take us where you want to go….hmmmmmm, you got me on this one…
from my point of view, i asked a question that could have been answered so many different ways….or, anyone could ignore the question and just comment on the photographs…why would either be “clubby”?? now , i will say this, and this may be your point, very few people answered the question i asked..and those that did were from the mainstay of the writers on “road trips”….interesting…
anyway, we are not married to this format..and it is unusual anyway, as i said to Jonathan, that we would have three pictures to discuss simultaneous..that would not normally happen even on this new format….as you know, i am going to get complaints either way….let’s give it another day or two or another post or two, and then i will go with the consensus…
oh yes, one last thing to consider….when i look at my stats, i can see that clearly 98% of the unique visitors each day never comment…yet, my “sticky time” is way way up there….8 minutes average, yes average, that each unique vistitor spends on BURN…so the “club” is a pretty small part of whoever is reading here…
thanks for bringing it up Ben…
cheers, david
well David you know that “sticky” time is skewed because of Bob and Panos….
Just kidding. But I do wonder if I am ever fortunate enough to sit and talk with Bob live and in person… do I get a bathroom break? Again, just kidding Bob… except for the sitting around and talking part. Looking forward to that one day!
ADAM…
the essay and the two singles posted now exist as meaningful photographs because of their historical context..yes?? that is all i meant….
cheers, david
PETE…
yes, of course, i know that….but, now would you not be disappointed if suddenly you did not hear from either?? if that happens, then you are going to have to pick up the drum beat…
cheers, david