i read carefully all of your comments on our last two essayists, Michael Christopher Brown and James Chance….both received almost unanimous “thumbs up” votes from the readers here on the essays presented…both are working in the documentary style of “bearing witness”, and yet this seems to be a good time to point out how quite different are these two fine photographers….
first i would suggest that Mike created his own narrative out of simply his own desire to make an essay out of Sakhalin…there was no inherent or obvious “story” to be told….there was no editorial reason for an editor to jump up and say “yes, let’s do a story on Sakhalin”…it would not be number one on the IMPORTANT list…but alas, the essay succeeds quite simply because Mike decided to do it…period….Mike made it important…..and he used his approach and his visual authorship to create a mood and a “style” and because of the power of the “vision” itself , a story has been told…
this is quite different from James, who had a “built in subject” in editor’s parlance…..tell an editor that you have found a place where people live in a cemetery and eyebrows automatically raise….the subject is obvious…James just might pique your curiosity about the Manila cemetery even before you have seen picture number one….we are shocked automatically because of the subject matter…period…the “story” is not created by James’ vision , but by the nature of the topic at hand….this is not to say that James was not “seeing”, but i think you can see the wide difference from an editor’s point of view…..
James photographed something that was THERE….Mike photographed something that was in his HEAD…i could easily imagine so many different approaches to the cemetery that would work, because no matter what there are people living in tombs…interesting by nature….i could also easily imagine many a photographer going to cold stoic Sakhalin and coming back with absolutely nothing….in other words, it really takes a photographer with a point of view and a real “look” to pull of a Sakhalin style essay…and it takes a good journalist to create the multi-media piece James gave us…both totally valid..
James used pictures to TELL a story…..Mike used photographs to MAKE the story….
when editors at magazines choose one photographer over another for an assignment, these are things they think about…who is going to do THIS story best? some stories are suited for one photographer, while others would be best done by someone else…in “movie speak” this is called “casting” and this is not much different in photoland…matching photographer to subject and the expectations of results is what “assigning” is all about….if you were an editor, would you send James to Sakhalin and Mike to the cemetery? do you think both would do great essays in both places? hmmmm, something to ponder for sure….they of course would both be “good” if they traded places, but a magazine editor might think long and hard about this one…
now these are subjects that i have discussed at great length with both men…i have had the opportunity to sit down in person with James Chance on several occasions to edit cemetery , so he knows what i think….the same for Mike Brown…we edited Sakhalin at my apartment just before i published….both men studied photography at almost the same time from the same university and with the same teachers….Ohio University has over the years been a leader in producing talent for newspapers and magazines…and is probably the largest rival school for the famed University of Missouri….both schools go competitevly neck and neck with a long list of very successful graduates ….i have no doubt that both James and Mike will be two photographers on the “A” list for top editors to choose, despite their differences……who gets chosen for what will be interesting to see…
so i have a question for all of you, albeit oversimplified for the purpose of discussion…..
do you see yourself as a photographer who needs a strong clear subject in front of you in order to work, or do you prefer to “invent” the concept in your head and carve interesting photographs out of “nothing” ???
Glenn, eloquent and beautiful way to put it-
‘I make a living by interpreting whats in front of me and am trying to shoot whats inside me and the former does not impede the latter.’
I love photography of all sorts and as long as it has meaning for me and gives me pleasure to look at then well I don’t think it matters what sort of photography I look at.
But what sort of photographer am I?
Thats a bit tougher, I guess I like to tell stories for the enlightenment and amusement of anyone thats interested… Whatever means it takes or visual style it eventuates in I guess has always been a looser concept for me until recently.
But I am now really trying to tell the stories much more in my own voice, say the things I NEED to say visually and emotionally while witnessing the passing parade of events. So does that count as conceptual or photojournalistic?
As to copyright, no never, ever, ever give it up unless you are completely desperate and doing a job that is the equivalent of dish-pigging.
Otherwise whats going to happen when you are old and athritic and can’t hold a camera anymore? Whose gonna look after you then?
PS Glenn I am off to Yuendumu on Sunday you familiar with the mob there?
Patricia………….
“If the Moon has a Sister…. then its got to be YOU”…………
LOVE YOU!
Love you too, Panos. Now go read those dear kids a story…
Patricia
PS Also I know this isn’t the place to put this but James Chance is a bloody marvel!
I love his essay and the approach to it, fantastic stuff. And so is Mike Brown’s essay…Beautiful.
Some great photographers/journalists what ever way you look at it!
(Argh, now back to all the revolting paperwork I have been avoiding for over a year… Argh and double argh!)
ok…………. last attempt……….
this lyrics is for Jim & and any Jim in here!!!
THE MARS VOLTA LYRICS
“Televators”
Just as he hit
The ground
They lowered a tow that
Stuck in his neck to the gills
Fragments of sobriquets
riddle me this
three half eaten corneas
who hit the aureole
Stalk the ground
Stalk the ground
You should have seen
The curse that flew right by you
Page of concrete
Stained walks crutch in hobbled sway
Auto-da-fé
A capillary hint of red
Only this manupod
Crescent in shape has escaped
The house half the way
Fell empty with teeth
That split both his lips
Mark these words
One day this chalk outline will circle this city
Was he robbed of the asphalt that cushioned his face
A room colored charlatan
Hid in a safe
Stalk the ground
Stalk the ground
Stalk the ground
You should have seen
The curse that flew right by you
Page of concrete
Stain walks crutch in hobbled sway
Auto-da-fé
A capillary hint of red
Only this manupod
Crescent in shape has escaped
Pull the pins
Save your grace
Mark these words
On his grave
[x3]
You should have seen
The curse that flew right by you
Page of concrete
Stain walks crutch in hobbled sway
Auto-da-fé
A capillary hint of red
Everyone knows the last toes are
Always the coldest to go
( … not trying to be offensive…… its just that im not a poet….
so i have to use other people’s poems…… thats all ! … fair enough? )
Your Lies Become You lyrics
How did I get here without you?
It’s a miracle we’re all sane
You’re kinda like suckin’ a vacuum
A book in a flat on a dueled plain
Well you claimed you could read the future
And I’d say that you’ve nailed that down
You still want everyone to love you
Well, here’s a tip I might have to your big brain
Do you really believe they can’t see through?
A circus punk playin’ a foul game
Let me cast you light, and it’s natural
And with me you can strike that pose, yeah
And you melt for the camera, cuz your lies become you
Yes your lies become you?after all
How am I living without you?
I’m not even sure now that I’m sane
But this little dog’s got enough sense
To know not to sleep in the cold rain
Yeah yeah yeah
How are you doin’ without me?
I’m sure you’ve found some new game
I never wanted to miss you
But then I never thought I could dig pain
Hope it’s warmer for you, princess
I, infact, hope it’s hot as hell, yeah
And get what you asked for, cuz your lies become you
Yes your lies become you?after all
Interesting discussion,
I was contacted by Getty to submit photos to them. Some of the photos I don’t have any attachment to but many were images of my ongoing project that David knows about. I refuse to sign over any rights to my images. I think in the long run you have to own your own images.
“As to copyright, no never, ever, ever give it up unless you are completely desperate and doing a job that is the equivalent of dish-pigging.
Otherwise whats going to happen when you are old and athritic and can’t hold a camera anymore? Whose gonna look after you then?”
Well, there are savings and investments, etc. like the rest of the folks that retire happily without copyrights. I wonder how many retired photographers are living off their copyrights? I think most of ‘em are writing columns in Shutterbug Magazine to pay the rent.
LISA…
this is the place to be…after James, all comments for stories and wherever the conversation takes us will be here in Dialogue…whatever problems there are in having all comments in one place is overridden by all of the advantages (i think, but i don’t know)….should make everything way simpler…three blog spots on one page is just too much….anyway, we will try it and see…
JIM…
many…..
cheers, david
PATRICIA…PANOS…
yes, you two are doing exactly the same thing….
cheers, david
HEY JIM
So what do ya think of this then?
http://gawker.com/5159358/poor-annie-leibovitz-has-pawned-all-her-photos
My middle name is Anne but I guess thats really where the resmblance stops though (hehehehehe….)
David, I just happen to have stumbled on a picture of you with a weird credit: DAVID A. HARVEY / NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC / GETTY IMAGES. (It’s a picture of a mass grave in Cambodia dated 1981. Didn’t know you had been on my turf then…) Is the copyright of these pictures still yours?
PS: The weird part is the GETTY IMAGES credit of course…
i think on copyright pete has a balanced opinion.. and only if working on a contracted basis, since there are worker-for-hire rights which some clients can push in court if needs be.
a friend recently sent me this seminar and some of it remains true despite it comming from 2004 – particularly this paragraph by jeff sedlik..
working alone, as a freelance, on stories i pitched, researched and offered as ready to drop into publication there is NO WAY i would have compromised on ownership.
War On Photography II
Presented at PhotoPlus Expo – Jacob Javits Convention Center – October 22, 2004
( http://editorialphoto.com/outreachep/wap2.asp )
¨At the top we have to recognize the value of your own work. For me that means to think in terms, to not think in terms of the value of the work to you but to always to think about your work in terms of the value to the clients. If you, if you think about the work in terms of the value to you you’re going to make mistakes, your going to give away things that you shouldn’t give away. You have to recognize the value of your work. It could be a shot of a hubcap that you do that you don’t give a damn about so you give away all the rights to the client. A year later the client wants to reuse that image their just going to go ahead and reuse it. If you had instead thought about it in terms of the value to the client you negotiate a licensing agreement with the client. You license him one year’s usage and the next year when they find that their sales have gone up because you did a great job on that hubcap shot they come back and pay you again for it. Maybe 80% of what they paid the first year and again and again and again. This happens to photographers who carefully license their work. I’ve always done that since day one when I got out of school I acted – and I must say I was acting at that time – like a successful person. I acted as if I knew what I was doing, I got some books on negotiation and on business and I didn’t give my rights away. I carefully licensed it and when a client would come to me and say we need all the rights, we don’t have a lot of money – which is pretty much every single call when you pick up the phone – I would spend as much time as I could carefully backing them down off of that unlimited rights thing. I would explain to them that they don’t need the unlimited rights and back them down onto the rights that they need. And if they said well we don’t know exactly what the usage is that we need I’d say well just wild ballpark guess. You know, let me know what you think you might use it for and I’m am going to license them those rights because they have x dollars to spend and it doesn’t benefit you at all to give away all the rights for those x dollars. ¨
john vink
this photo of davids?
http://khmernz.blogspot.com/2009/02/time-photos-rise-and-fall-of-khmer.html
yes…
As a photographer, I am more inclined to creating a concept out of a certain topic; whether it is of purely personal and artistic value or of a newsworthy one. A little bit of both is a good balance for someone who wants to tell a story.
I tend to shoot what’s in front of me. I like to photograph people and events as they unfold, without my intervention. I’m interested primarily in photographing people, and that as an observer. I’ve done conceptual stuff, of course, but it’s not my first choice.
David Bowen
Exactly! It is a very hard line to walk at times, but in the long run it is worth it.
JOHN VINK..
the copyright deal at Natgeo has always been pretty good with the exception of the published pictures back in the early eighties…in this case there was a sort of shared copyright or at least shared use..that published in NG picture from Cambodia can be used by them or by me, with compensation to me either way….this was, of course, pre-Magnum…NG has some kind of portal deal with Getty of which i am not a part with the exception of this eighties material….a few years after this picture of the mass graves , even published pictures became the sole property of the photographer…
being in Cambodia (Kampuchea at the time) in 1980 was a tenuous situation..the Khmer Rouge controlled a lot of the countryside at night…even Angkor Wat could be a dangerous place to be once the sun went down…not a tourist in sight day or night…not a hotel or restaurant or anything…it was just me going in with the Vietnamese Army (NVA) who had just beat the U.S Army …i slept in a Vietnamese NVA military hospital tent….no visa..no embassy haven for me….hmmmmm, what the hell was i doing there?? i did have a good contact in Phnom Penh from PJG and so i muddled day by day through the morass….
cheers, david
No visa? no embassy haven? and most important… NO MARRIOTT POINTS?
now that is just nuts!
DAH
i have uploaded 100 or so photos to the photoshelter burn site, through the invite from anton.. just as a test.. no narrative, nor final images..
i cannot find a place to look at them.. i have found the burn magazine photoshelter gallery page though..
any ideas?
to look at ´decade´ at the photoshelter burn site it requires a password.. onbly for decade.. not for anton..
will also hit him up about this..
many thanks
david
i am guessing the way to use photoshelter is to create a lightbox, in which i can order the images and number them, and then it is easy to talk about them on skype – which is why i am trying to find out where i can see and arrange them..
hmm..
will get there i am sure..
David Bowen,
Pull down the “sort by” menu on the right side of the lightbox and select “custom.” You can then drag the images around to the order you want.
thanks pete…
i know about using my own PS account.. david and anton have been working on a burn photoshelter MU account, whatever that is, and have a burn account for mentoring which i have uploaded a bunch of test photos to, in order to see how it works.. yet i cannot get past passwords, (as i don´t have any) and am unable to find the photos i have uploaded…
DAH
if you can i think it´s best to just delete the test upload i have just done to the burn account and i´ll get anton to talk me through the burn pages and supply me with passwords for access…
we´ll sort it..
panos. thanks. i’ll be hanging around. there’s alot to learn
I often feel it’s like a conversation, the more brash and talkative my partner, the more appropriate it is for me to sit back and listen. With someone shy or nervous, then I need to take more of an initiative.
David Alan
Thankyou for your insights regarding the differences between the Sakhalin and The Dead, and the approaches of the two photographers.
Yes the approaches are vastly different, James draws us in and tells us a story. Michael writes us a poem.
For me, the strongest story within Sakhalin was the extraordinarily beautiful photographs Michael extracted from a very bleak place. You are certainly right that many photographers could visit such a place and come back with nothing. I am in awe of Michaels raw talent.
On the other hand, in such a place, I’m sure there are many stories to be told. Had James visited the place, I have no doubt he would have focused in on one and brought back amazing stuff.
The two situations are not all that different really. Both are far away exotic places far removed from the experiences of most North Americans. While not quite in the same photo-op category as bullfights, Antarctica, African safaris, or quaint Latin American locales, both the graveyard and Siberia are exotic enough to be interesting for their novelty alone. The same goes for “exotic” subjects closer to home.
What I find vastly more interesting, and impressive, is when someone shows me something familiar to me in a fresh way, we often miss the obvious. Mirrors and windows and all that.
I’m still trying to find my own way.
DAH,
The stream of comments has become slightly confusing…I thought chronologically meant that the first comment posted would remain the first comment posted, but instead it seems to be ordered from the comments of each day are in a time sequence, and then newer comments appear first. Taking a break from my computer last night, I missed much of this discussion…I was able to piece together some of the topics and conversations, but still found it confusing to follow…I liked it much better when the first comments posted remained the first as it was easy to follow the conversations and see the discussions develop.
So I will attempt to answer the question that DAH posed: “do you see yourself as a photographer who needs a strong clear subject in front of you in order to work, or do you prefer to “invent” the concept in your head and carve interesting photographs out of “nothing” ???”
This is a question I’ve been asking myself a lot lately. On the track to figuring it out, I ask myself questions like “What makes a good story? What makes a good image? How can I shoot a “concept” and have people understand my point? How can I get the audience to “get” my point and feel what I feel when I show them what I have shot?” For me, I have shot many different things across many different genres. It’s helped me to develop my talent and hone my interests where photography is concerned. No matter what I am shooting, it is always very important for me to connect to my subject; I’ve commented about this with almost every essay or single shot here on BURN…the connection, for me, in my work, is paramount. That being said, my approach to a subject right in front of me or an “invented” concept, or intangible concept, would be the same…as I guess it would be for any photographer, being that we all have our own style…
Since I’ve been following BURN, I have learned so much…about the views of others, how they see, how people react, things to consider that I may not have considered before…it started to help me realize the kind of photographer I want to be and what step to take next. In that, the projects I have outlined for myself to start working on have been much more conceptual…literally attempting to tell a story with an image, or a set of images (a picture’s worth a thousand words…). I will see where these stories take me…
DAH and all, thank you for making me think and sharing your views. I am so grateful to be part of this community…
I feel the same Carrie..
thank you David..
again
and
again..
**
we can also rephrase… under what conditions does one’s authorship/vision become subordinate? for the more experienced lurking about here — have you ever felt yourself in such a position? what was it like? when, where how….?
CARRIE…
we are very pleased to have you as part of this community…
your comment on the sequencing did confuse me however….the comments are set up just as you suggest…in chronological order..the most recent comments at the bottom and in the order in which they were written…when the comments go past 50 , then a new page is made and that page is seen first, but it is easy to just click “older comments” at the bottom and you will go to the previous page…we have tried everything in terms of how to sequence comments in the last three years, and this seems to be the most efficient most of the time for most of the readers….
cheers, david
Hi everybody! I think the most important thing is to me, to create your way to photograph, before magazines, newspapers or that stuff.
YOUR way, YOUR vision. I’m included.
It’s really interesting after a while of watching so, so many pictures (books, internet, Perpignan, etc…) from so many photographers, at the end you guess at a glance, almost inmediately, who took the pics. i.e. DAH, Paolo Pellegrin, Steve MC, Bruce Gilden, etc… That’s really great for them. So if the editor want that point of view, he will call that photographer… and that point of view comes from inside, deep inside, besides University…
Hope see everyone at VISA this year, Patricio
another new online photo zine, quite nice..http://www.visuramagazine.com (they opted for no comments :) )
All photography, all the time.
DAVID
Tomorrow (Thursday, Feb. 26) I’ll be preparing the video clip you’ve asked for. Then I’ll snail mail the DVCAM mini cassette to you. I’m assuming I should send it to the Magnum address. Is that correct?
Patricia
I prefer to bring to life the concept in my head and try to carve interesting photographs out of “nothing” even with a “built in subject” in editor’s parlance.
Much preferring the new format David. So much easier to keep up with stuff!
Radiohead Lyrics
Song: Idioteque
Album: “KID A” by Radiohead
Who’s in a bunker?
Who’s in a bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
I’ll laugh until my head comes off
I’ll swallow till I burst
Until I burst
Until I
Who’s in a bunker?
Who’s in a bunker?
I have seen too much
I haven’t seen enough
You haven’t seen it
I’ll laugh until my head comes off
Women and children first
And children first
And children
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
Ice age coming
Ice age coming
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both sides
Let me hear both
Ice age coming
Ice age coming
Throw it in the fire
Throw it in the fire
Throw it on the
We’re not scaremongering
This is really happening
Happening
We’re not scaremongering
This is really happening
Happening
Mobiles skwrking
Mobiles chirping
Take the money run
Take the money run
Take the money
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
Here I’m alive
Everything all of the time
The first of the children
Komm in mein Boot
ein Sturm kommt auf
und es wird Nacht
Wo willst du hin
so ganz allein
treibst du davon
Wer hält deine Hand
wenn es dich
nach unten zieht
Wo willst du hin
so uferlos
die kalte See
Komm in mein Boot
der Herbstwind hält
die Segel straff
Jetzt stehst du da an der Laterne
mit Tränen im Gesicht
das Tageslicht fällt auf die Seite
der Herbstwind fegt die Strasse leer
Jetzt stehst du da an der Laterne
hast Tränen im Gesicht
das Abendlicht verjagt die Schatten
die Zeit steht still und es wird Herbst
Komm in mein Boot
die Sehnsucht wird
der Steuermann
Komm in mein Boot
der beste Seemann
war doch ich
Jetzt stehst du da an der Laterne
hast Tränen im Gesicht
das Feuer nimmst du von der Kerze
die Zeit steht still und es wird Herbst
Sie sprachen nur von deiner Mutter
so gnadenlos ist nur die Nacht
am Ende bleib ich doch alleine
die Zeit steht still
und mir ist kalt
(english)
Come in my boat
a storm is rising
and the night is coming
Where do you want to go
(quite alone you are drifting away),
give it up
Who will hold your hand
when it
pulls you under
Where do you want you want to go
So boundless,
the cold sea
Come in my boat,
The wind of autumn
keeps the sails stiff
Now you are standing by the lantern
with tears in your face
The daylight falls to the side
The autumn wind sweeps empty the streets
Now you are standing by the lantern
with tears in your face
The evening light chases the shadows away
Time stands still and fall is coming
Come in my boat
Yearning becomes
the helmsmen
Come in my boat
the best sailor
was I
Now you are standing by the lantern
with tears in your face
You take the fire from the candle
Time stands still and fall is coming
They only spoke of your mother
so merciless is only the night
In the end I’m left alone
The time stands still
and I am cold
Panos, is it Ballad night?
Kickin you can all over the place!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STWSTgfMruc
believe me… this one is totally related to photography!!!!!! ( somehow )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhPPJ5dolxU&feature=related
( i love Marianne …….. oh well ! )