most of you are right now either working on personal essays or are trying to think of a suitable project…we chat so much here about essays, connecting pictures, editing for either concept or story, and are generally thinking of a "whole"….
me too…just like many of you, i am right now trying to get a handle on my "Off For a Family Drive" project …i do this, of course, by photographing…thinking without shooting does not work for me …now i am in the Outer Banks of North Carolina and photographing "random" families over our holiday weekend….working on my family too…but i drive , have coffee, think it all over, get confused, get clarity, let my mind wander off into space while someone is talking to me about the waves for surfing, think about giving it up, think it is the best idea i have ever had, or maybe worst idea ,and generally torture myself to death!! what fun…..
when i was in college, and probably before, when i went to the school library i would read every book in sight except the ones i was assigned to read…my education came from those "random" books i think…it was always more fun doing something i was not supposed to be doing!!! human nature i reckon, and certainly dah nature…
what about random pictures?? i shoot them all the time (as below) and they end up usually "going nowhere"…but i can’t help myself….if i see something interesting, for whatever reason, i will take a picture…i always have my camera…perhaps even most of my pictures are "random"….what about you…what do you do with your offhand "random pictures"? are these pictures merely an "escape valve" ,as was my library reading, or are they an integral part of your work as a whole???
BOB..
Sorry. My reply was meant for you and not David. I’m a bit tired today.
Cheers
HERVE :)))
just got back from a long walk (3 hours) with mrs. black :))…and i think i have only like 5 minutes left on my allocated time for web (and I still have to write Glenn Cambell an email)…sorry about my bloated comment…
Just for quick clarification :))..I dont think “arty” stuff is any more important than non-arty stuff. In fact, I agree: the abu ghrabi digi pigs are among the most significant imagery of war and torture i’ve ever seen…and you are totally right, some of the most important pictures i’ve seen in the last 25 years have come from the entire spectrum of the photographic lexicon: “art”, “objective” pjs, objective/subjective amateurs, cell phones, video snaps, security camers, webcams etc etc. To me, it has never been in total about the “look” of a picture, but the CONTENT and how that story has been told to me. I’ve seen photographs and read stories, im sad to admit, of atrocity and tragedy that hasn’t had an impact on my sorry 21st century ass and then i’ve been stunned into nightmare by other pics and reports.
You dont have to convince me about needing film or pixels to be “art”, in fact, im not even really that interested in the whole “art” discussion, in the sense of quantifying what is and isnt “art” or good “photography”…believe it or not, im much simpler about all these things: the the photograph, in whatever form or skin or presentation, compel me to want to know more, stun me, or make me curious or teach me or surprise me. Ironically, i actually like very simple things (for example the extraordinary prose of Alexandra Fueller: read her books! :)) )..
as for the idea of the pics from Mayanmar or any other picture being “lies”, what i meant is that no real image tells the truth, no image, and we must remember that: but does and can an image, be it a “pro” shot or be it a shot from a cellphone, tell us a story: HELL YES, THANK GOD! :)))))))…in fact, what I meant about “lies” Herve was that we become, often, de-sensitized or anestetized or, rather, we often (specially in our abundant and wealth-protected lives) become numb to real suffering around the world and in our lives and back yards. It is too easy (and often happens) that we see pics and we swallow as many as we can, and read as many books and stories and newspapers and news reports as we can in order to “know” so that we think we are good and valuable citizens, with a heightened and compassionate sensitivity and awareness for the plights of others…when in truth often we are not:
just punch drunk on our own feelings…
that’s what I mean. to me the “lie” of an image is that it is THE moment, or THE story…to me a photograph is only the BEGINNING of the story of a moment or people or place or tragedy. It is why PJG Vietnam Inc is so important to me, so important: cause i saw the pics first, before i knew f the book, and when i read the book (just as with Agees Let Us Know Praise Famous Men) in university, it was transcendent and punch-in-the-nose powerful…
see, for me it is never about what a photograph looks like (arty vs straightforward, i dont know how to distingquish) or who makes the picture (pro or am) or how it is made (film, digital, sketch, video) or when (at the moment or later)…all that matters to me is the story that that picture compells…James would be the first to tell everyone that is pictures are not the only pictures that mean something nor would he ever compare photographs, only that the more people speak out about what happens in this life to each other, the better…
and by the way, i know you were not besmirching his “style” but questioning the need for “art” in cases such as this…I appreciate your questions and perspective, that’s why i wrote so much :))…you’re a thoughtful person and I value this a great deal…
in the end, i think the only condition that matters is this:
are we as humans doing all we can to speak and act about the condition that surrounds us, using our tools and our priviledge and gifts and wealth (for me that would be my photographs and my writing and, when i have it, my money to help others) in the service of our collective humanity, including my family, friends, city and fellow humans all over…
that’s always been my reason…and my cri de coeur….
it’s a great discussion, i’d love to continue, but im being told my 1hr is dissipating…
MARTIN: YOU CAN CALL ME DAVID ANY TIME! :))…JUST LET DAVID KNOW ;))))))
MIKE: LOVE THE STORY ABOUT SIMON :))..He’s a thoughtful guy as well..
ok, running
hugs ya’;ll
bob
questioning the need for “art” in cases such as this…
———————-
Not even. I thought I made that clear. I just did not see much in them, processed or not, as photos.
The shot(s) of deserted Yangoon, has potential, there is a Goya-like element in it, truly churning. But it’s too… Journalistic!!! Objective!!! :-))))
We understand he is shooting from a hotel room or some window. It substracts from the elemental power that he must truly have felt.
I do not know him and his previous work, so I may be quite wrong but if anything, I’d venture he did not find his shots “that great” and tried to give them some impact afterwards, in which he was quite justified, but what can I do, the result doesn’t register with me.
BOB, HERVE,
Great discussion- I’ve tried to catch up, but forgive me if I’m missing something: My take is that a photograph CAN tell a story, but whether that story is fact or fiction is never entirely clear to anyone other than the photographer. How we as viewers interpret each photograph is as crucial to the communication of the image as the perception, mood, and vision of the photographer.
Asher
Yes, Asher, we can look at these pictures and talk about them as photography, ie. subjectively.
But aside from that, it is important to know that this cyclone (and the Junta’s mafia gang-like hold over the country) is not a fiction, or there to accommodate the subjectivity of an artist’s vision (all things James Nachtwey would say with a lot more authority than me).
Reading a few replies to these photos on that blog, the guests did not confuse one bit what it was about either.
More generally (stepping away from the cyclone pix), sometimes, something must be told, and the photos are simply not about photography
(though they may be later, but not in the urgency of the moment they were shot…. I have a feeling that Nachtwey would never be interested in a retrospective of his work)
I may not be able to be in front of the comp’ tomorrow mid-AM. I will check is David stars the post when I am still home. If not, Can I write my question to one of you to assk on my behalf?
Herve,
I’m not denying the horror of the cyclone’s effect, nor the importance of relaying that horror to the rest of the world via imagery. However, every photograph is constrained by the photographer’s choices, which are in turn influenced, either consciously or subconsciously, by the photographer’s desire to portray the event as s/he perceives it. Natchwey has covered other events for which other photographers may have made choices that would tell a different story, given the exact same scene before them.
Witnesses at a crime often give differing descriptions and accounts. It does not mean that they are dishonest or biased. We cannot help imposing our feelings, emotions, and deep rooted beliefs on the way we express ourselves.
Saturday night…
Since I’m all alone here…
America still at war…
The Army, The Navy… Airforce…
desperate for new people, recruits everywhere…
THE NAVY…
recruits in Venice..
organizing bodybuilding events, BOXING EVENTS…
games, FUN, happiness , love, HARMONY..
and then YOU sign…
Please take a LOOK at 10 more photos from
the Navy recruiting in Venice Beach.. their boxing games , etc..
http://web.mac.com/innerspacecowpanos/%22MOVIES%22/Boxing_Venice.html
tell a different story,
———————–
Asher, you only want to see the photographic side of it. It makes sense on this blog. But a cyclone killing upward of 100 000 people, with 10 times that number destitute, tell me what is the other story!
Look at the pictures Bob linked us to, and those that have been coming out since it happened 4 weeks ago. Whatever the treatment, it is about the flooding destruction and destitution of a population left to fend for itself for the large majority.
LINDA O…AND ALL
i do not have “one” picture that “satisfies me” more than the others…unless, of course, it is the very simple snapshot of my mother getting into the car that i randomly took when i was 14 that will be the cover of the upcoming “Off For A Family Drive”…
basically, my books have my “favorites”… although the kinds of photographs i chose for Divided Soul are quite different than the ones i chose for Living Proof…and i chose for different reasons…
i have INTENT always….but, i do not “plan” any individual picture….i do put myself in situations where i instinctively “feel” something significant may come out of it, but serendipity rules in my case….
i do not have the illusion that i might “make a difference” in any direct way…i am just as interested in world events as the photographers who cover world events…and i studied 500 years of history and art and literature wrapped around the incursion of the Spanish and Portugese culture into the Americas just to do one essay which took me almost 20 years….
but, i am more interested in creating a SENSITIVITY rather than assuming that a picture of a specific conflict, for example, is somehow going to “stop conflict”…
look closely and you will see that almost all of my bodies of work have been wrapped around “conflict” or “injustice”…
but my pictures are not “of conflict” directly…Cuba, Vietnam,Va. Ghetto, Native Americans,Spanish Conquest,Rap etc. are all subjects where i was emotionally involved in the various injustices that led to my interest in the subjects i chose…history is totally a part of my motivation always always…. but i am surely looking and feeling the subtlety of the little slices of life that tell us something about the people who either conquered or became conquered….
i literally covered conflict in Cambodia and Nicaragua (where i met Jim), but found the work for me just not me….besides i noticed how quickly people forget specific “news events” and the pictures of “horror” which may have led to “winning a contest” for example were so so not anything about the overall context of culture, that i just took my own sensitivities into a broader view…as in anything else in life, i left certain jobs to others who were motivated differently for whatever reasons…we are an animal of specificity..no one of us can do much…most of us can do just one thing really well..but together there are no limits to what we can do…
i was once with a young boy whose leg had just been blown off by a land mine while he was tending cattle in Cambodia…an “accident ” of war…there was little medical care…his father crawled into bed with him and stayed with him constantly for several days until he died…i was there the whole time….the picture was a double page spread in Natgeo along with a photo of mass graves below white puffy clouds, a result of the Khmer Rouge exterminations…did i reach anyone?? i do not know…but, from that point forward i decided it was more important, for me anyway, to show the humanity of a culture and perhaps the results of conflict in hopes that some government would not “drop a bomb” on the mother feeding her baby who is in my photograph just because she lives somewhere inside the “axis of evil” or because she lived someplace “under embargo”….maybe a congressman or two would see this picture, look into her eyes, and cast a vote in the right direction next time around….i am not sure her exhumed skull coming out of the muddy grave site in the jungle would have the same effect…but, who knows??
frankly, i rarely go down this road of discussion…it feels very strange to me to tell people what they are supposed to be getting out of my work or even my intent….so these are a few of my deep down motivations, but what you “get out it” could be something else entirely…
when Jim and i talk about world events etc., we share the same beliefs….we are totally on “the same page”….how we use our talents and our little cameras to perhaps “make a difference” , or perhaps not, is a personal choice based on our psychological makeup and our vision of the world as it comes roaring up to our front door…
peace, david
DAVID,
Recently I think I’ve discovered I may be a better “random” photographer. There’s always intent when I take pictures and motivation and I don’t bring my camera everywhere and always. But I may not work on a specific project when I go out and get my best images.
The hard thing of working this way is all the questions I ask myself. How do I edit? how do I get published? can I ever end something? what would I call an upcoming book or exhibition? or are maybe my images just single “works” that don’t work together? I dunno…
Cheers
HERVE,
You wrote “Asher, you only want to see the photographic side of it. It makes sense on this blog. But a cyclone killing upward of 100 000 people, with 10 times that number destitute, tell me what is the other story!”
I think you’re really missing my point. I was commenting on the discussion between you and Bob regarding the fact vs. fiction story-telling of a photograph. I don’t “only want to see the photographic side of it”, and I am not insensitive to the vast tragedy of the cyclone- quite the contrary. I was merely making the point that different observers will provide distinct perspectives, be they via the printed word, the image, or vocally. None is right or wrong or better than the other, just different perspectives of the same fact of the huge tragedy. That’s ALL I was saying. No need to type words in my mouth.
David said it much clearer in his last post: “how we use our talents and our little cameras to perhaps “make a difference” , or perhaps not, is a personal choice based on our psychological makeup and our vision of the world as it comes roaring up to our front door…”
Asher
Maybe your words, Asher.
A different perspective is not a different story, Asher. No disagreement on the diferent perpective, of course.
HERVE / ASHER :))))
ASHER: I havent forgotten you :))…and will write you shortly :))…it’s been a intense week, and i looked at the pics :))))))))))!!!!…as to the matter above, I am in 100% agreement with you. I think that is the reason I originally was confused by Herve’s reaction to the pics. That is that each person TELLS an event in the same way they perceive it. James photographs, in not way, undermine the reality of the devastation of the cyclone nor do they subjegate the impoverishment of the their lives nor their strangulation at the hands of the junta…In fact, James work there (long before the world’s attention vis-a-vis the cyclone or the protests from the monks) has been to voice the poverty and enfranchisment of ot he people there…James photographs to me are NOT powerful because of their “style/appearance” but because he was there at the time of the event and he photographed directly what he saw with all the strength he knew how in order to speak about what happened…I am with you 100% :))
HERVE: I think Asher’s point is an essential one and the same i was trying to make but not as succinctly. When we “react” to a photograph (My long, tedious comment was in reaction to your comment articulating your reaction to James pictures, which seem to imply that James work was “sad” because it elevated the importance of his “art” to the facts of the suffering: that was how i read your 1st comment, was I wrong??), we bring to it our own psychological and emotional belief in what constitutes “truth” or rather “good images” vs. “false” or “bad images.” I heard lots of people talk about this with Katrina and the Tsunami and 9/11 or the famines in Africa, etc. In fact, Alexandra Fuller writes about this quite powerfully in her remarkable book Scribbling the Cat, about Africa, specifically Zambia and the battlefields in Zimbabwe and Mozambique, following a scarred veteran of the Rhodesian Wars. (I cannot recommend this book more highly!). The fact is that yes, it is a disservice if we elevate the “image” about the event, this is particularly true with “news”, and there is a great deal of ambiguity and difficult questions (ethical, metaphysical) at play here…but I repeat what I wrote in the beginning, that to me the most important fact is the Story of what is happening and that story gets told in a variety of ways. As for Jim’s retrospective work…well, he’s had retrospective already…and the work still haunts, even if the events that were detailed at the time have past, because I believe that the best photographers, the best writers, the best aide workers, understand that the truth is that the attempt to speak upon the human plight and to make sure it never leaves the awareness of others is at the heart of all good work…
but David’s long response is much much more eloquent and elegant than mine :)))))
DAVID: that’s the word, indeed….that’s it indeed! :)))
hugs
b
DAVID, ALL
On the subject of photos changing something, someone in the world, I remember we had a few nay-sayers, and I wonder if they also think, feel that photography does not change anything in their own lives as well? And maybe also the lives of those closest to them?
May I (leaving to work in 30 minutes) here:
QUESTION TO JIM:
To elicit the best response, maybe the kind of help that will save one life, do you think that nowadays, photos should reach the right persons rather than the right media, ie. a wider public?
How do you proceed so the photo reaches the very people that can make a difference, and save a life? Different subect, different channel? Thanks
HERVE,
A different perspective (teller’s AND listener’s) can tell a different story of the same facts. Case in point: your interpretations of my posts are different from my intent, and from how others may interpret what I’m saying (such as Bob above).
BOB- no worries about “delayed” responses. I’ve had meaningful interchanges with gaps of months (such as ours), and worthless interchanges that occur on a daily basis… If/when you can reply, it’s always welcome, no statute of limitations!
Asher
David,
just sent 9 pix to Michael…….as archive may be too complicated….
katharina
Asher….
You are right! ;-)
Bob, major Black…;-0) (minor white, major black…Got it?)
yes, you got it wrong. “sad” was not about the picture treatment, but about the situation in Burma, political that is. I am sure I specified it was apart from the comment on the pictures themselves.
Retrospective. Bob, you know I was talking about Jim’s stance of bringing as much urgency to the events he covers, over a nice body of work! I was not exactly putting thoughts in his head, sorry if it seemed so.
See with Asher about the Story in many ways, or different stories from same facts…. ;-)
running…
… please, more “debates” Bob, Herve and Asher … much, much for thought, all well presented and said … and thank you David for a wonderful eloquent glimpse into motivation/approach, really much appreciated. Hmmm, i often wonder if we would get as much out of these discussions in person, and i often think not because strangely it is easier to “be here now” … here. Of course, i could be wrong since i have not met most of you. I’ve seen a photo of Bob, now I want to see a picture of Herve for my mental model of the bar … is this a dark Irish pub then? Guinness on tap :))
HERVE, BOB and ASHER,
Interesting discussion and I’d like to share my point of view.
I also agree with Asher’s point of view and, as a non-english native speaker I can see how difficult can be to objectively express a point of view no matter which language you use.
About the event in Myianmar, as many others, once most of us were not present we can just interpret the personal views of journalists and imagemakers (photo / video) describing their interpretation… And talking about journalism, in my humble opinion, it must be as objective as possible avoiding deviation from the fact itself.
Photography, differently from a video register, is always subjective as we can have as many different approaches, perspectives, interpretations or whatever you call it, as we have people, human beings involved (tellers / listeners, as you put before.
Well, it’s just another perspective. My personal perspective.
All the best,
Ari
Well, now that the food is really flying, I
might like to weigh in on my own behalf.
I am glad that this series has raised the
hair on the backs of people’s necks. Good.
I would prefer not to discuss style. It is
what it is. I shoot and see this way and
that is pretty much it. That is for another
discusion.
I agree with Simon Norfolk, BTW, you have a
micro-second to hammer a point. You take
your shot and not everyone will agree with
your choice. I will say this. The facts
are as they appear The negs are shot
straight with my Leica.
I have shot reportage for almost 20 years,
without seeking out disaster. That does not
mean I do not take on difficult subjects. I
was in Burma/Myanmar already and this
horrible storm stole lives. The junta,
I already knew, was ruthless, heartless
and incompetent. That was why I believed
I could get down to the Irrawaddy River
Delta in the chaotic days that followed
the storm.
It was far worse than I had imagined. I
had to tell this story. By far most of
the bodies were women’s and childrens. I
wanted the world to see, in whatever
capacity I could muster, the utter neglect
endured by a people already suffering
under a government that does not care at
all about its people. That is all. If
you like the style. Good. If not? Fine.
But the point is that as horrid as the
photos look, the reality down there IS ten
times worse still to this day.
Those bodies will not be collected. DNA
tests will not be taken. They will not
ever be identified. Their families, if
any members survived, will never find and
bury their loved ones. That is what I
was thinking about. These corpses were
days before mothers and daughters mostly.
You will not find an inventory or death
and dying in my archive (http://www.digitalrailroad.net/jameswhitlowdelano/Default.aspx). I have, in
fact, never photographed death like this
before. In fact, I saw more dead human
beings, people from nice families, in
the first thirty minutes down there,
than I had seen in my entire life.
Not enjoyable business but I was surely
not going to turn away when the
photographs might actually effect concrete
change. We bandy that statement around
a lot but in this case, it might just
happen.
That is what we do this for, no?
Thanks for the healthy debate.
Warm Regards,
James Whitlow Delano
James Whitlow Delano– Really glad you chimed in here! I was just about to write something when you posted. After seeing such debate I looked at your work last night and was quite moved. The content was strong although the work slightly uneven, but still POWERFUL! I woke up this morning feeling I really needed to seek out some way to do something to help so your reportage did its job. Keep working.
GREAT WORK
JAMES WHITLOW DELANO…………..!!!
peace
J.W. Delano,
Thanks for this work… some of your photographs are going to stay with me for a long time, if not forever.
and David,
Thanks for the 9:19 post and sharing your ideas about your work and experiences… eloquent and the more I read your words, the more I begin to understand the layers of your work…
David,
thanks for the review, I am thinking now.
Amy
James Delano, thanks for barging in. I was not taken by your shots, or the treatment on them. I do not think that in itself is a big deal, It is not a judgement on you as a person, as a photographer, or even on ” using artistry in photo-journalism”.
However I am taken by what happened in Burma over the last 10 months, and I am glad you are telling us, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS there could be but one Story to report on, that of the destruction by the cyclone and the helplessness of the people under an abject dictatorship.
How we wish that better access could allow even more depth in coverage, and many different perspectives (stories within the Story) goes without saying.
DAVID :-)
I’m not sure again if you’ve read my reply to your question… many things can go unnoticed in this stream of collective consciousness ;-) and I don’t want to litter the great great James N. topic… So: would you consider my bus ride for look3? If so, i would need to scan the pictures asap I guess…
looking forward your response
ALEKSANDER…
i am still in the process of deciding what shows to use..we will let you know soonest….your work is terrific for sure, but i am just trying to BALANCE…
ok! :-) waiting then…
Herve:
“James Delano, thanks for barging in…”
it’s this kind of language that is so frustrating and disappointing, especially given your initial response to my post calling attention to James work (after he’d posted at David’s other link)…You spawned the discussion in your dismissive way, because of your specific reaction to his work. On its own, your opinion and reaction merits no mallice, however, that you have again seen fit to then castigate but another photographer is an indication to me that it is easier to dismiss than it is to countenance.
It is the same sort of dismissiveness that I occurred earlier (and no, i dont want to be intereviewed either Herve, you have totally misunderstood my place here of my passion for David’s community)….you initiated the discussion with your critical reaction to James work (fair enough) but i find this comment totally dismissive…
after he joined in the discussion as a means to react to the discussion…you reject him with language….the same happened with Philip when I tried to share his work (that video) with the blog…
you’ll be happy to know that i’ve decided, however, to weigh in again in any discussion, it continually serves to divide and dismiss rather than sew…i’ll post from time to time only reactions to themes. I am worn out…and it’ll be the last time I encourage a friend and a photographer to pop up….
best of luck.
respectfully
bob
typo: i meant that i will NOT again weigh in in a discussion, ..instead will leave, from time time, posts related to themes david posts and to, when asked, contribute photographic work…
BOB… i'm sorry to hear this… i feel your pain, really… and although i don't feel (being new here) that i can or should join this discussion at hand, i just want to say:
PLEASE don't stop doing what you're doing, i absolutely welcomed your contribution introducing james' work, his images touched me (in a touching kind of way :)
i'm already quite sad that you won't be able to make look3, so please don't make things worse…
:))))
just kidding, i feel you. respect.
and peace.
and hugs.
anton
Bob,
ditto what anton said…
Bob, your problem is that you cannot accept that people (or me only, maybe) see things differently than you. If you read my answer to your first Delano post, you will see that it’s very simple, and quickly goes to the subject of the pictures, Burma.
You, on the contrary, decided to bring in the big fires of art in PJ, and went on and on, putting all kind of intentions in my simple words, to serve your favored style of writing, namely rhapsodizing with almost endless variations on a few words. No criticism, i do admire your virtuosity with words and long-breathed thoughts. Kind of a “theme and variations” where the theme becomes a pretext to verbal pyrotechnics.
Criticism: You talk about Philip, but just as here, you are the one who criticizes what someone (or me only, maybe) else feels. I dare you to find in any of my replies the same criticism that would question your feelings or opinions.
Last, this is the second time that, taking your presence and words on David’s blog so fucking seriously, that you make me the culprit, the one to blame, the guilty for a decison (to post less) that is yours and yours only. I simply do not like it fair stigmatizing another member, from your piedestal of someone David said he would not do the blog without. I feel like I am up against Goliath, but without a sling: You are sure to win that contest. May that make you happy.
Bob, you are way too susceptible. We have a saying in France when someone gets a bit too carried away and self-possessed:
“Pete un coup, t’ es tout rouge”…
….Running now (of course) :-)))))
PS: last on this, for this blog. if you wish, my e-mail is (don’t laugh!):
kinginexile@yahoo.com
can i just saw that i love that you are encouraging conversation, encouraging thinking in your blog post. really really lovely & inspiring.
as for my random pictures… i feel like they are a visual stream of consciousness. little bits of expression that arent associated with any established project but at the same time are associated with me, my thoughts, feelings, reactions.
as for what i actually do with them –> the ones that i love or appreciate i post to my blog. which, i think, can be beneficial for my process as maybe there’s a seed of a future project – an idea – or style shift in the random pictures. after all, there was something compelling enough in the moment to demand an image be made.