Comments on: links and kinks https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/ burn is an online feature for emerging photographers worldwide. burn is curated by magnum photographer david alan harvey. Sat, 18 Jun 2016 08:35:07 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.2.4 By: Ian https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16872 Mon, 21 Jan 2008 04:09:46 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16872 Naveen, I was watching those shots proceed on flickr and was wondering how you could shoot there…I really enjoy your photos.

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By: Martin https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16873 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:07:13 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16873 Thanks David! Do you need JPEG’s or do you take screenshots?

Cheers,

Martin

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By: Bj A. Patino https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16874 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:35:04 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16874 i’ve done that shoot-someone-while-pretending-to-be-shooting-someone/thing else routine. it helps sometimes. but then i got to thinking: i’m shooting person A but i don’t want him to notice so i aim the camera at spot B. i’m concentrating on A so often i don’t even know what’s going on in B. and sometimes there’s a person C there. i guess you see where i’m going. C doesn’t know i’m NOT shooting him but i know i’m not shooting him so i feel “good” about the situation and click away. if i had aimed at A, who’s my intended subject anyway, he might feel what C’s feeling now and i’d feel nervous too and hesitate to take the shot. yet there’s no real difference between the 2 cases. so it seems like an internal thing really

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By: Naveen Jamal https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16875 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:22:08 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16875 Long time lurker.. first time poster. DAH, I don’t know how you manage to to find the time & energy to reply to all these comments… and so consistently. Greatly appreciate this forum and the pictures that I discover thru it.

As far as shooting kids, I do plenty of that.. but usually with my 4 & 7 year olds to provide cover and/or gain access.

The most trouble I’ve gotten into was while doing a 4-weekend project at the local water-park last summer… let’s just say park management was involved and was ready to revoke my season pass.. but I managed to talk them out of it after offering to have them review my images. The shots that started the whole mess were underwater shots that turned out to be completely out of focus, with nothing at all discernible.. which was probably a good thing coz.. it would have been a bunch of butts and feet dangling over floating tubes, viewed from beneath, entering a waterfall.. sometimes it’s good to miss the shot :)

Having said that, what I was most worried about during the ‘interrogation’ was having to explain to my kids why we’d have to leave and couldn’t come back..

http://bitmap.org/ragingwaters.html

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By: cathy scholl https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16876 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:32:19 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16876 Those who say it’s easier for a woman to photograph children could be right. I was right in the faces of these girls and they absolutely didn’t notice me.

http://www.lightstalkers.org/images/show/137676

Maybe it has something to do with “vibe” as Kelly Lynn says but I have also noticed that people (especially kids) are often so fully involved with what they are doing that they don’t break their concentration to take notice of what anyone else is doing. Or if they notice they don’t care.

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By: Lung Liu https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16877 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:22:08 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16877 Sorry about that double post…not quite sure what happened :(

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By: Lung Liu https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16878 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:19:40 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16878 David: Matt Kim pointed me towards your blog and I must say that I’m impressed and flabbergasted that someone who should be as busy as you could set aside the time to devote to a project this involving.

Finalist: Some very interesting sets – very different and if nothing else, then that should be enough to introduce people to new ways of seeing. I was in Bangkok and just looking at some of the student works there made me want to do something different than what I normally do.

Children: I never really had a problem shooting children – I think it has more to do with how you carry yourself than cultural issues. Having said that, it’s actually illegal to do so in certain parts of Canada without the parents’ permission. I know that’s true in Vancouver and Montreal (and probably other areas as well), but really it all comes down to common sense. If you’re in a playground with a camera and lots of lollipops, then one could misinterpret your intentions. You really do need basic social skills in photography.

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By: Lung Liu https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16879 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:18:57 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16879 David: Matt Kim pointed me towards your blog and I must say that I’m impressed and flabbergasted that someone who should be as busy as you could set aside the time to devote to a project this involving.

Finalist: Some very interesting sets – very different and if nothing else, then that should be enough to introduce people to new ways of seeing. I was in Bangkok and just looking at some of the student works there made me want to do something different than what I normally do.

Children: I never really had a problem shooting children – I think it has more to do with how you carry yourself than cultural issues. Having said that, it’s actually illegal to do so in certain parts of Canada without the parents’ permission. I know that’s true in Vancouver and Montreal (and probably other areas as well), but really it all comes down to common sense. If you’re in a playground with a camera and lots of lollipops, then one could misinterpret your intentions. You really do need basic social skills in photography.

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By: Lara Wechsler https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16880 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:39:36 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16880 Well @David I have been yelled at. I can give all the specific stories, but it is not that interesting really, except to say I have been yelled at.

I got more flak for doing street photography in the late 80s and early 90s in NYC then now though, that is for sure. But I have gotten some in the last 2 years. One by a parent who threatened to call the police about a year a go. It was a digital camera and I deleted the photo, but even after that she continued giving me grief and waited for about 5 mins to see if any police would happen to pass by, but they did not and so she left.

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By: Kelly Lynn James https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16881 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:23:23 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16881 I shot two stories involving children for the DAH submission. One was a conceptual look at a child’s view and sense of wonder in New York City.

The child’s view of New York I generally had ‘implied permission’… The body language, the eye contact, the smile, the head nod. When asked, I’d briefly explain the project and parents seemed to understand. I spent 4 hours one day photographing a playground in Brooklyn. I started by sitting on a bench for a long time with my camera out but not shooting. I’d smile and say hi to anyone walking by. I’m Texan – this is normal for me. I started brief conversations with some people sitting near (“how old is your son?” “Do I have a child here? Oh, no. I’m shooting a photo project on how children view New York”). I’d shoot pictures now and then from where I was sitting. I believe (with kids and grown-ups) staying put in one place is often less threatening. They can see I’m not there to shoot THEM or THEIR kid… I’m just there taking pictures. I’m not “after them” and I’m not trying to hide or sneak a picture. After a while, kids (and adults too) are like pigeons in a park… they edge a little closer, they get curious, they ask you to take their picture (o.k., pigeons don’t do this). After about an hour, I had spoken to a couple of parents and had implied permission from a few others around, and by then I was sitting under and climbing all around the playground equipment and goofing around with the kids. New parents and kids who walked up might have thought is was a little weird, but they’d look to the others, see that they were comfortable and decide it must be fine. Also by being so visible and involved, but in one general area, parents could see what I was doing and could choose to let their kids play there or not.

I should make clear at this point that I’m physically the least threatening person to be found shooting on a playground (female, young looking, physically small). This makes a HUGE difference. And I only shoot with a 28 and a 50 so I have to be close which makes not being noticed usually out of the question. Sadly fear and this hyper alertness/ vigilantism have made it difficult and dangerous for men to shoot in the many of the same situations where I am accepted – at least in the US.

During the same week of the New York shoot I also had to explain to a Toys R Us security person what I was up too. I did and showed him the pictures on the back of the camera and he said “Thank You” and that was it. Generally, though, I can sense when a situation is off or someone is not comfortable.I don’t like sneaking pictures and I generally don’t want to take any one’s picture who objects.

Does anyone else think that 95% of it is how YOU feel… the vibe you are giving off in the moment, on the way into the bar…on the day? Whether you are comfortable, open, curious and confident v.s. nervous, overly excited, agitated, doubtful, etc.? This does not necessarily apply to the kids question, but in general? In life too, I think.

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By: david alan harvey https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16882 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:37:31 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16882 MARTIN BRINK….

you have some really nice work!! as a matter of fact i am totally in love with your cow group shot….will post your best soonest…

cheers, david

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By: david ukaleq b. https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16883 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:25:51 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16883 I think it says it all:

http://www.buscatube.cl/play/youtube/brassens/tag1/XnG_VjVoDAc/la-mauvaise-reputation-georges-brassens/

If anyone knows of a good English translation or has the guts to make her/his own…

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By: david ukaleq b. https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16884 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:47:17 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16884 Well, I must say it’s difficult for me to keep up with the pace of the forum. That’s also the reason why I don’t post more often and I sometimes skip dozens of posts. But this is so interesting to read about your experiences and thoughts.

Sidney,
As pointed out by David and others, your story is especially interesting because you weren’t even trying to photograph the girl in question.
This shows the extent of the paranoia of some people. Now, we are getting paranoid ourselves. I was like you, I was wondering if I would not find my apartment visited by the police. But, hey, we have laws and the police too is supposed to comply with them. As far as I know this sort of thing would take a judge’s decision. Its not up to the local policeman. Now, I know that you guys in the US have this great thing called the Patriot Act but, still, I don’t think it would fall within the scope of the Patriot Act.

David,
About Alex Webb: I think one can guess from his pictures that he does not have a beer with his subjects. Actually some people don’t like this kind of photography because they think it is too distant and cold. As for me, I love it, just as much as I love much more intimate pictures. That said, as long as you are not unnoticed, you have to deal with people’s reactions. And I would be very curious to know if for example he makes eye contact or anything like that. I remember that a few months ago Martin Parr was on this blog and he said that he was shooting as though he had the authority to do so, not making eye contact with anyone, etc. Now, Martin Parr’s kind of photography is again different from both yours and Alex Webb’s. I also asked Costa Manos during a workshop and he told that he almost never asked people and that often he was pretending to shoot something else, constantly moving his camera and keeping shooting. Well, it can certainly work sometimes but not always I think. I tried it a couple of times, but I was never sure if people indeed thought I was photographing something else or if they just didn’t care. If you pretend to be photographing something else but you are not successful, then I think it is worse than anything else. Also, I find it difficult to frame accurately when moving the camera all the time. That said, when I got into trouble with the police, I had been repeatedly shooting a group of children, and that in such a way that everyone could notice me. I was not trying to hide myself, on the contrary. It was in a context where I thought it would not be suspicious to take pictures, as it was a kind of Halloween party and a lot of other people were taking pictures (ok maybe of their own children) and thus I didn’t take any precautions.

Regarding your story in the bar. I think I am not like your former student because generally I am rather shy and I must force myself to get closer to people. But sometimes shyness makes you act clumsily, and probably I don’t always have the attitude that would be the most appropriate. As Bj. a Patino noticed, it is as how you feel internally that influences your behaviour and therefore how people perceive you. I think someone like you is at the far end of the spectrum. You seem to have an ability to make people feel at ease which is quite extraordinary. And I am not just talking about chatting with people and making friends and so on, but also about making people feel O.K. even if you don’t say anything. For this reason, I would be interested in seeing you (as well as other photogs) in action. I would love to see the NG footage. Although this kind of “ability” is probably partly innate (it is clearly linked to our personality), it can probably be partly learnt also. Just as one can learn to overcome shyness.

I know what you mean about the “light post”. I tried it and found it to be effective. This is especially true in places where there is a flux of people arriving and leaving. First, as you say, you become part of the “decor”. And if people see that you were already here before them, they will not suspect that you are specifically interested in them. Even if they don’t like that you are here, they are anyway less likely to confront you, simply because you were here before, like the light post!

I must also add that even if I went into trouble one time, and got a less than pleasant comment another time, there are also many times where I didn’t have any problem at all. But the thing is, even if most of people are nice, it does not make the others less dangerous…

Lara,

You are a woman and that makes a BIG difference. In fact I think it is not even comparable. People almost never see women as potential threats…

Herve,

Don’t misunderstand me! Maybe you just read too quickly (which is well understandable given the amount of material to read!). What makes me pessimistic about humanity is not the possibility or not to shoot pictures. For example, in the US, it may not be allowed to photograph federal buildings. It does not make me particularly pessimistic though. At least not more than any other stupid rule. What makes me pessimistic is the various stories that one can read above, first and foremost that of John Trotter. What makes me pessimistic is the look on the face of the people who asked me if I was there with my family or alone, when I answered “alone”. At that time I was a dangerous dirty pervert. Not the slightest doubt in their mind. Yes, these disgusting PREJUDICES are DANGEROUS. As a matter of fact they have killed, and are still killing, countless people around the world. I mean, prejudices against photographers are the same as prejudices against anyone else. And when not tamed by civilization they turn into hatred and into the most blind and bloodiest violence.

“If it’s to get some kind of expression, the type that only comes from children, why not go to fairs, festivals, children shows. where tons of snap shooters are around it makes little difference you do it too.” This is precisely the kind of place where I was, see my comments above.

I understand what you mean about children lacking individuality in some contexts. Kids tend to behave in a way that we find “fun” or “cute” in many circumstances, but it takes more than that to get interesting shots, and not just sterotypes (and I have to admit that my own pictures are probably more akin to the latter than to the former). But I think one should not be too extreme. Even though kids look more uniform than adults, it does not mean that they have no individuality or nothing worth photographing. I once read an interview of a photographer saying that, in his view, portraits of children don’t have any interest, for children all look alike and don’t express anything specific. To me this statement is plain bullshit. Think about the portraits of McCurry. Are they nothing more than “beautiful colors and costumes”? David has many great children pictures. In a more “street style”, Alex Webb has also many. In fact, almost all photographers I know have great pictures of children even if they are not at the core of their work.

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By: Martin https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16885 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:03:08 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16885 Two great pics and once again thanks to David.
Advice next time for you David would be clearer rules and full technical information about exif, description etc. And maybe some sort of auto generated reply to let us know that the work got through. I hope you got my work. It’s on my website. Anyway, not up with the best I’ve seen on your site, just nice to know it got through.

Cheers,

Martin

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By: Julio Muñoz https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16886 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:14:37 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16886 Michael:
I think you are right about to “be or not to be” (look like a professional). It depend of the situation, I have my “beautiful” vest ready for some occasion that I need every body know I am a professional and people think “oh, well he’s a photographer, probably works for a magazine or paper…no big deal.” But can happen things like the people want to look good in the article and start to be posing for you, or can think “he will earn money with the article so I will refuse he take the photo until he pay me some money”. I use to be guide for photographers and I saw those situation several times, I am in very interesting position: I can enjoy the show between the photographer and the subject.
I choose to be a “ghost”,”stealth” or “sneaky”. But no a just a “cold ghost” some time is important to be “married” with the situation, become part (and understand)of what in going on. For example in Cuba the santeria is very interesting religion (vudu in some way) is one of the goal to achieve for those photographers that visit the country;in this case I use the technique of “married” , so I drink, dance with them so they think I am one of them so after some minutes they ignore me and can start to take the photos. A very good photographer show me that technique, he like to take photos in the bar at the corner of my house, for get the good photos he use to mix with the people, obviously he should drink too because the people there invite him , so he some times come back to my house little drunk but with the camera happy, do you remember him, David….?
Also be aware about what thing uses important photographers in photos or documentaries, they often have deals with publicity companies for use things for publicity, but in the real life never use it.
Mike:
Happy to know you like my photos, this is the real Cuba, and always is like this, no rain like UK

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By: martin (marcin luczkowski) https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16887 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:58:02 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16887 typepad do not want publish my comment… grrr… i will wirte tomorrow… :(

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By: Michael Rawcliffe https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16888 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:36:03 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16888 Thanks for the reply David.
Julio, Thanks for the post: you have much experience of watching how different photographers work so your comments are very interesting. So was the comment from DAH of the student attempting to take photographs in a bar.

Good photographs Julio – Cuba looks like a vibrant country. I have David’s Cuba book and love the light in the tropics – an area I have not-yet visited. The light in England is much more muted, especially in winter! Your English is much better than my Spanish.

Best,

Mike.

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By: Andrew Sullivan https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16889 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:24:31 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16889 I agree with Julio in that the personality of the photographer plays a role in the ability to get images. But is personality also inextricably linked to the pictures we do get or even try to take? It’s been really interesting to compare the finalists’ essays to what they say here on the forum. I get a sense from reading their comments that their work is really an extension of their personalities. When I saw the work of Martin, Erica, Bob B. and Joni for example, I felt that, of course, it has to be their pictures. And Aleksander’s recent comment above illuminated his work perfectly.

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By: Michael Kircher https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16890 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:22:46 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16890 Julio,

Interesting points. Especially about doing a “psychological analysis” of the situation.

Now, whether to go all out and look like a “Big-time professional photographer”: vest, multiple large cameras, long lenses, backwards cap, etc…or whether to maintain “stealth.” That’s a question.

There have been times when I’ve had the “look” with all the trimmings…and people take a quick note of me and must think “oh, well he’s a photographer, probably works for a magazine or paper…no big deal.” They never bother with me again. And sometimes when I’m dressed in everyday street clothes, carrying one small camera and lens and just popping off shots here and there…that’s when some folks get a little up tight.

Sometimes it better to look like you’re a “pro.” Knowing when and where is another question, though.

Also, doesn’t Steve McCurry have a closet full of identical vests? I’m sure he’s expressed his thoughts somewhere about all this.

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By: Julio Muñoz https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2008/01/links-and-kinks/#comment-16891 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:37:54 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2008/01/09/links-and-kinks/#comment-16891 Hi David and others:
I can see the discussion about ask or no ask permission for take the photos about people(documentary style, street photography). If you ask a permission the subject can stop or change the activities you want to take, so the ideal way should be take the photo without ask a permission.
I am a photographer but also work as a guide for other photographers and filmmakers. I could see how work many photographers from many countries and different styles ; so there is a very important element that many photographer ignore (or want to ignore): the own personality of the photographer. In my opinion the documentary photography has a very big challenge because no only depend of the skills and knowledge about photography but also depend of the personality of the photographer. The subject should “ accept ” the photographer then be relax so the photographer can start the real shots; all this could be achieve without ask a permission if the photographer look nice to the subject.
The photographer should do (often quickly) a psychological analysis of the situation for find the way to get close to the subject, be accepted by him and get the shot avoiding he change what is doing. I am talking about using wide lens , no the” shy style ” of using telephoto lens for stay far away.
Also the “psychological analysis of the situation” can tell you when is absolutely necessary to ask a permission.
About children is more complicate, it is important get the permission of the parent. Many people are more worried for the text that will have the photo than for the photo itself.
Other problem is if the photographer use big cameras, vest, long lens, tripod or/and big camera bag the subject will be nervous, refuse the photos or think you are in assignment and ask for money. One of the first things I learn from David was to be like a “ghost”, he uses his small Leica and small ordinary bag (“no stuff”,like he says), and nobody knew what he was doing.
Sorry for my bad english.
Julio Muñoz from Trinidad Cuba

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