Hello everyone, Been busy with the family here in paris but eager to barge in and join the conversation. About Mc Curry and downtrodden photo-tourism, Basically, IMO, it’s always down to authoring. Photography is a terribly referential craft, and a hard one to make self-referential, not on account of sharing one moment, one emotion (who knows if the guy/gal who takes a lousy shot “a la” afghan girl is less “feeling” for being a snapping tourist?) but on account of using the means of the media, one’s vision and the means to render it.

That is, the referencing if any, is not a duplicating then, but part of the syntax, the phrasing or style if you want of the photographer ( M. Parr comes to mind, trite and triviality meet authoring).

So, I think the idea of genuineness in facing downtrodedness, traveling as a more or less concerned tourist, is quite independant from the debate on photography.

Just too many people are satisfied with snapping a “good” shot away, in reference to someting else. No sin in itself, I do it all the time, but believe the total freedom that photography allows to become an author happens inversely to this type of shooting.

yet, I think a lot of what we shoot, a lot of what is a photo, has its own (self-)criticism built in the print or final image. So, who knows, maybe in way, 12 “a la” shots of the Afghan girl or else may become some kind of authoring in itself?

It’s the questions (hard ones, but gentle hidden ironies too), that can reveal themselves in a photography or a series, that bring the authoring to fruition. And friction.

Last, there is a selflessness often popping out of travel snapshots, but also to so much photography from beginners, amateurs and “unachieved”, that is fascinating, and revealing, but for me, never in a way to downsize the photographer, or box it in as this or that, en groupe ( ie. really concerned, unconcerned, close, distant, “feeling”, superficial, etc…), until the individual reveals his/herself to be so, in person, which again is quite independant from the shots they’ve taken.

I like to stay at someone’s house, if possible; it is easier to get day to day life shots as well as gaining the trust of someone who might end up talking to you.

Just random thoughts…

ciao

Michael

well well a lot of comments about where to stay or not to stay!!!

in the end, it made no difference one way or the other…the students and jim and i got so caught up in the stories (which were not shot at the hotel!!) that the place where we all stayed and showed work was irrelevant…it was nice to have a spectacular viewing spot for the final shows however…

i certainly never never need a fancy hotel…the only thing i ever think about in that regard is safety and security for my equipment…i only worry about my film or cards being stolen or something…i even set out a “decoy” camera to be stolen if someone breaks into my room….the “real stuff” is hidden under the rug or wherever….

you guys also got off on another thread about exploitation and separation which i will get into on a new post soonest….

new student work and new posts all around coming today….

cheers, david

Asher, I’m so glad you mentioned my “piece of cake” comment before too much time elapsed and give me a chance to clairfy what I meant by that. Good example of how hard it is to communicate well thru writing! I am hoping you understood my intent there but it could definitely sound like I’m saying it’s easy (for me) to take a photo as good as McCurry’s. Definitely not the case!!! My portraits are nowhere near as good as his but the point was that it was easy for me to take a portrait of an exotic person in good light and think I was doing something “special” but in truth that “specialness” had a LOT to do with the subject being exotic.

Just my way of telling Michael why I think a lot of people take the “exotic portraits” he was commenting on. I think it’s easier to get a lot of “what a great photographer you are!” comments on those than on portraits of average joes, especially for the beginning photographer.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain!

I get your point about being isolated. Maybe David got some feedback from his students about this that he can share with us. Were they relieved to get out of the “real world?” Did the seperation bother them? I’m guessing not.

I do both…stay for weeks or months in a small bunker of a room and bathe from a bucket of water (that I heat with a plug in coil in cases where I want warm water…that is when there’s electricity) as well as in much more luxurious accomodations. I don’t think it makes any difference in terms of the photographs or relating to people because (to sort of quote Arie) I am who I am regardless of where I’m staying. If I’m just there visiting, I am a tourist, not a local no matter how bleak the accomodations. I could try to tell myself that I’m more like the “locals” because I have a crappy room too but I don’t think it makes any difference to them…

I guess there are some who think they will become too “soft” if they let themselves experience comfort AND/OR there’s also the guilt factor “How can I come to their country and live like this when they have to suffer?” That I definitely experience a lot, even when staying in the crappy rooms but unless I take the money for the room and give it to them I still don’t think it’s going to make a difference in their lives whether I feel guilty or not.

If you haven’t heard enough from me today, here’s one more issue…Did the building of the luxury hotel give jobs to the local community, which would be good (for example) or did they tear down a local village to build it-not good. I think the eco tourism movement is a much better option and things are going in a much more “conscious” direction that way. You can actually stay in a place that is doing good and make a difference that way.

Also, I think all portraiture subjects are inherently interesting, exotic or not. It’s the talent of the photographer (such as McCurry) that extracts and captures something from the subject that will compel the viewer.

Thank you for your reply. I agree that often “less is more” and especially for a picture portfolio but for a “photographic essay” photographer this can be limiting.

In such instances I would suggest whetting the appetite of the viewer with a photograhic portfolio and then providing a link to a web site.

I enjoyed your photographs!

Best wishes,

Mike.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/232/463897432_53478b7aa6.jpg

or a primitive campsite view from our tent?

From being 6 years old I grew up as a part of backpacking community who ‘escaped’ the city for the weekend into nearby hills and mountains. We would sleep on tarps without tents, build primitive roofs in the woods, sleep on abandoned camp kitchen shelves in the winter and so on. I did this until I was 17 and then when I settled as an adult person from 20 till today.

So for me a modern hotel is just not the way to go. I don’t HATE it but i hate it. I prefer sleeping in someone’s house on the floor, in a tent, or anywhere that feels simpler, primitive and close to the environment that I reside in. This makes me feel that I soak in the experience better.

My way doesn’t have to be a choice between nice hotel and slums of a city. Here is an example of a week at Key West that I did last spring with my family:

First night we missed the gate and Long Key campground so we spent a night at Holiday Inn at Key West. Everything was fine, we took a little trolley round trip to key west and on the way we passed the beaches, Hemingway’s house all nicely done while sitting on our butts. Up to this point our experience was not much different from watching the Travel Channel except that we could smell the destination.

We got off the trolley and walked to the city beach and to the Hemmingway’s mansion and other common tourist sights. The next day and subsequent two nights we spent at small campground and Long Key. Our tent was right next to the beach and we had to walk to the bathroom and showers. But we heard the ocean waves from our tent, we were steps from the campsite to the water and spent numerous times watching the pelikans or the Barracudas chasing prey. We learned a lot from the local people who worked at the campground about the place that surrounds us. We walked the coral reefs and saw stingrays. On the way to the showers we saw coconuts on palm trees and lizard and various birds. We made fire and watched the sunset… We experienced much more than if we were at the hotel because we would have to drive or walk a long way to all of this and most likely we wouldn’t do it.

That is why I would prefer a bamboo koi. In my imagination it is more immediate experience than a big hotel with electricity and tons of rooms with four walls.

Our opinions seem to be pretty similar.

I think the “exotic portraits” also fall into the category I mentioned above:

“an opportunity to live out their fantasies of being a photojournalist? Are these images stronger just by the nature of the subject matter so one doesn’t really have to take a great photo to get a lot of “wow what a powerful image” comments?”

A LOT of people, including myself at one time (previously, not now) see a portrait like the Afghan Girl and want to be Steve McCurry. I’m glad I had the opportunity to try that because I see now that (for me at least) those types of photos are a piece of cake…great lighting, exotic person and you’ve got a pretty interesting image. The challenge now (for me) is to make an equally interesting image WITHOUT an exotic person. I think the non-exotic are more interesting actually.

So when you see all those similar portraits consider that photography is a process which will lead some to move beyond what they’re doing…which is a good thing… but you gotta be where you are now in order to get where you’re going. :)

I now get what you seem to be after. It’s what you’re interested in. Nothing right or wrong about it. It is what it is. I hope you find the workshop you are looking for.

But often I think people get a little too romantic about the downtrodden of the world and make the mistake that that’s the only human experience worth documenting.

I also find it redundant to check out someone’s website (I’m not talking about yours, I haven’t looked at it yet.) and under “Travel” there is always the inevitable set of portraits of very “exotic” looking people. What is the photographer saying with these photos beyond, “Hey, look where I went!”? Not much, I’d say.

Anyway, you’ve sparked an interesting discussion and I appreciate it.

MK

I spend months at a time living in a small town in India where there is every experience of humanity going on all at once and yet it is surprising how many people want to come and photograph only the suffering. For the most part these are not professional photographers so it’s not like the work is going to get published and bring attention and donations to help these people. So why they want to “focus” on the homeless and suffering is a good question. Is it an opportunity to live out their fantasies of being a photojournalist? Are these images stronger just by the nature of the subject matter so one doesn’t really have to take a great photo to get a lot of “wow what a powerful image” comments? Is this what people think they’re supposed to photograph when in third world countries??? Maybe a little of all of the above?

Going back to Alysson…I have a question about this comment
“Expensive hotels make photographers stay away from those men they would be looking for (that’s, at least, what I really like to do).” Interested in knowing what that means…

FYI there are workshops given by Maine Photographic Workshops that combine travel with photojournalism…usually in a positive way, such as this one on Photographing World Relief Efforts in Uganda
http://www.theworkshops.com/catalog/courses/index.asp?CourseID=2784&SchoolID=20

take care,
Cathy

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and there is my contribution to your posts. I am not sure why you would not want to stay a a fancy hotel…the truth is that you do not belong to the country you are visiting. Yes you like the people, teh smell, the colors, the culture. But if that’s the case, change you life: let everything you are behind you today and move there. Experience their real life and struggle for few years. Many people want to do what I call “Poor tourism” – You want to go in a dangeorus part of teh world for a workshop…again ypou speak as someone who after a week or two will have teh option to leave the hell… I would have a lot of respect for yuou if tomorrow you go (say in Soudan) and you learn what real danger is over an extended period of time, what life is for these people…

Other than that, I am not sure what you want to get from these fake experiences: maybe some excitement? at the end of teh day, you wil lreturn to your world anyway.

Arie

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and there is my contribution to your posts. I am not sure why you would not want to stay a a fancy hotel…the truth is that you do not belong to the country you are visiting. Yes you like the people, teh smell, the colors, the culture. But if that’s the case, change you life: let everything you are behind you today and move there. Experience their real life and struggle for few years. Many people want to do what I call “Poor tourism” – You want to go in a dangeorus part of teh world for a workshop…again ypou speak as someone who after a week or two will have teh option to leave the hell… I would have a lot of respect for yuou if tomorrow you go (say in Soudan) and you learn what real danger is over an extended period of time, what life is for these people…

Other than that, I am not sure what you want to get from these fake experiences: maybe some excitement? at the end of teh day, you wil lreturn to your world anyway.

Arie