sometimes i sleep in the back of a car….sometimes standing in line at the airport….i can pretty much sleep anywhere…..however, sometimes i stay in the finest hotels…that is, if i am on an expense account of some sort….now is such a case……
there is now an almost full moon rising above the high rise buildings towering over the smallish swimming pool in a hip "celebrity" hotel in the middle of chaotic Bangkok…..just a few weeks ago the "Black Eyed Peas" were hanging around this pool of the Dream Hotel…both nachtwey and i originally almost rejected this hotel for our workshop site, because both of us were thinking bamboo and koi pond motif rather than a Southest Asian version of Miami Beach art deco….but, what do we know??
my girlfriend (below), who had to split Bangkok four hours before my arrival here two weeks ago because of a family emergency, has returned now to check out the full moon with me….my friend and printer and general techno genius, michael courvoisier, is here along with co-teacher james nachtwey and a whole host of my old friends …and new friends in the form of 28, yes 28, students…..
this pool is where we do our slide shows…..big white wall over the pool and hi def projector and terrific sound system…nice place to hang out with a cold beer and slide show rolling…..jim and i did our shows last night…Manit (above), famous Thai art photographer who just sat down beside me, shows tonight….. student show friday…if you are anywhere near Bangkok, please come..
ok, i have to let go of this computer now because we need it for this evening’s 9pm sharp presentation….and i must not be rude to my evening presenter…..
just one quick question for you….if you had come to Bangkok to take our workshop, would you have preferred the bamboo koi decor or would you be rockin’ in the cool Dream Hotel???
I’d go to Poland or Portugal for a workshop!
who can say no to a ‘dream’ hotel! but still my vote goes for the bamboo koi decor because this bamboo stuff sounds really cool. after saying that, i must add that when it’s a matter of an opportunity to work with you, i suppose, anything will do for me.
wish you and your team all the best…
None of them. When I have a camera, hotels are anything but a place to sleep. I would never leave my crap-gray town in Brazil, fly across the world just to lay down beside a swimming pool and drink beer.
I’d stay on the streets, live the city, be bored with it… try to find some of those unique moments that insist to stay hidden right behind our boredom on empty streets and crowded markets. Expensive hotels make photographers stay away from those men they would be looking for (that’s, at least, what I really like to do). Waste of money, waste of time and, most of all, a waste of human experience.
So… let’s just say I could not do something really special if I stayed in a fancy hotel. I like hanging out the streets and make use of the money I’d spend in the hotel room for something more interesting, something like train tickets… at least trains take you somewhere else! That’s the point.
Alysson, I hear what you’re saying but for me that little luxury would allow me to rest in some security and comfort. Nothing like worrying about the security of your kit while trying to rest to exhaust you and lessen your receptivity to those magic moments when they do present themselves.
I’m all for maximum immersion but I’m also keen on quality rest and a little downtime when the security of kit and person are taken care of. Only then can I really immerse myself in the assignment with rested mind firing on all cylinders.
Alysson, I think it was more of a marketing question. Where would you most rather attend a workshop?
DAVID: really small world – I just heard that Nachtwey lives next door to the woman I’m going to visit when I come to see you and that he rents studio space from her ex. Is NY really that small?
If you get a chance show him this: Hi Jim, I am in awe of your eye!
ciao
Michael
It is interesting how people define “human experience.”
Believe me, the humanity that’s found in spiffy little upscale hotels like the ‘Dream Hotel’… quite an experience!
Yeah guys, I understand your point. Maybe I’m not interested in people who spend their time in fancy places (not only hotels), and that’s why I should not stay in places like those when my purpose would be “taking pictures”. Maybe what I really like are the markets, crowded streets, children laughing and those popular manifestations of culture… and once I know that those people could not afford going to those places, I should not stay there too if it was of my interest walking among them. That’s what I like doing with my camera. Sorry for any trouble, friends.
Michael: I know it would not be possible with David or any other photographers of this world, but (some kind of dreaming nonsense thing) I’d really love to attend a workshop on a moderately troubled zone, with experienced photographers who could share some of their experience on working on those places. Some kind of training mixed with “dangerous” workshop assignments. Once more, I know it is not possible but… I have to say I’d really like to see something like this. Maybe some troubled region like South America (I live here and it is not so dangerous as it might seem) or the Caucasus. Just and idea for a location. That’s all.
Alysson
I am kind of with you on opinion about the hotel, seems like the really nice hotel maybe a little isolationist. Disconected. But Paul makes a good point though, about security with the camera gear. I use 4×5 equipment, its pretty bulky and not easy to be discreet, but, probably I still would take that risk. Only thing though, for a seminar, you probably need something like this hotel? I don’t know what it takes to prepare something like that. I just know that I would need somewhere to load and unload my film holders. A big light tight tent.
ps. Loved your work in Brazil, very revealing!
( curios about what you are shooting with, no tech threads, just wondering )
Alysson,
I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and there is my contribution to your posts. I am not sure why you would not want to stay a a fancy hotel…the truth is that you do not belong to the country you are visiting. Yes you like the people, teh smell, the colors, the culture. But if that’s the case, change you life: let everything you are behind you today and move there. Experience their real life and struggle for few years. Many people want to do what I call “Poor tourism” – You want to go in a dangeorus part of teh world for a workshop…again ypou speak as someone who after a week or two will have teh option to leave the hell… I would have a lot of respect for yuou if tomorrow you go (say in Soudan) and you learn what real danger is over an extended period of time, what life is for these people…
Other than that, I am not sure what you want to get from these fake experiences: maybe some excitement? at the end of teh day, you wil lreturn to your world anyway.
Arie
Alysson,
I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and there is my contribution to your posts. I am not sure why you would not want to stay a a fancy hotel…the truth is that you do not belong to the country you are visiting. Yes you like the people, teh smell, the colors, the culture. But if that’s the case, change you life: let everything you are behind you today and move there. Experience their real life and struggle for few years. Many people want to do what I call “Poor tourism” – You want to go in a dangeorus part of teh world for a workshop…again ypou speak as someone who after a week or two will have teh option to leave the hell… I would have a lot of respect for yuou if tomorrow you go (say in Soudan) and you learn what real danger is over an extended period of time, what life is for these people…
Other than that, I am not sure what you want to get from these fake experiences: maybe some excitement? at the end of teh day, you wil lreturn to your world anyway.
Arie
Arie has a good point here…Alysson please don’t take this personally, I am not directing this at you (since I don’t know you at all) just from your comments an interesting subject has been brought up.
I spend months at a time living in a small town in India where there is every experience of humanity going on all at once and yet it is surprising how many people want to come and photograph only the suffering. For the most part these are not professional photographers so it’s not like the work is going to get published and bring attention and donations to help these people. So why they want to “focus” on the homeless and suffering is a good question. Is it an opportunity to live out their fantasies of being a photojournalist? Are these images stronger just by the nature of the subject matter so one doesn’t really have to take a great photo to get a lot of “wow what a powerful image” comments? Is this what people think they’re supposed to photograph when in third world countries??? Maybe a little of all of the above?
Going back to Alysson…I have a question about this comment
“Expensive hotels make photographers stay away from those men they would be looking for (that’s, at least, what I really like to do).” Interested in knowing what that means…
FYI there are workshops given by Maine Photographic Workshops that combine travel with photojournalism…usually in a positive way, such as this one on Photographing World Relief Efforts in Uganda
http://www.theworkshops.com/catalog/courses/index.asp?CourseID=2784&SchoolID=20
take care,
Cathy
Alysson,
I now get what you seem to be after. It’s what you’re interested in. Nothing right or wrong about it. It is what it is. I hope you find the workshop you are looking for.
But often I think people get a little too romantic about the downtrodden of the world and make the mistake that that’s the only human experience worth documenting.
I also find it redundant to check out someone’s website (I’m not talking about yours, I haven’t looked at it yet.) and under “Travel” there is always the inevitable set of portraits of very “exotic” looking people. What is the photographer saying with these photos beyond, “Hey, look where I went!”? Not much, I’d say.
Anyway, you’ve sparked an interesting discussion and I appreciate it.
MK
Michael,
Our opinions seem to be pretty similar.
I think the “exotic portraits” also fall into the category I mentioned above:
“an opportunity to live out their fantasies of being a photojournalist? Are these images stronger just by the nature of the subject matter so one doesn’t really have to take a great photo to get a lot of “wow what a powerful image” comments?”
A LOT of people, including myself at one time (previously, not now) see a portrait like the Afghan Girl and want to be Steve McCurry. I’m glad I had the opportunity to try that because I see now that (for me at least) those types of photos are a piece of cake…great lighting, exotic person and you’ve got a pretty interesting image. The challenge now (for me) is to make an equally interesting image WITHOUT an exotic person. I think the non-exotic are more interesting actually.
So when you see all those similar portraits consider that photography is a process which will lead some to move beyond what they’re doing…which is a good thing… but you gotta be where you are now in order to get where you’re going. :)
This conversation is getting more interesting. Convenience is a relative term – it means different things to different people.
From being 6 years old I grew up as a part of backpacking community who ‘escaped’ the city for the weekend into nearby hills and mountains. We would sleep on tarps without tents, build primitive roofs in the woods, sleep on abandoned camp kitchen shelves in the winter and so on. I did this until I was 17 and then when I settled as an adult person from 20 till today.
So for me a modern hotel is just not the way to go. I don’t HATE it but i hate it. I prefer sleeping in someone’s house on the floor, in a tent, or anywhere that feels simpler, primitive and close to the environment that I reside in. This makes me feel that I soak in the experience better.
My way doesn’t have to be a choice between nice hotel and slums of a city. Here is an example of a week at Key West that I did last spring with my family:
First night we missed the gate and Long Key campground so we spent a night at Holiday Inn at Key West. Everything was fine, we took a little trolley round trip to key west and on the way we passed the beaches, Hemingway’s house all nicely done while sitting on our butts. Up to this point our experience was not much different from watching the Travel Channel except that we could smell the destination.
We got off the trolley and walked to the city beach and to the Hemmingway’s mansion and other common tourist sights. The next day and subsequent two nights we spent at small campground and Long Key. Our tent was right next to the beach and we had to walk to the bathroom and showers. But we heard the ocean waves from our tent, we were steps from the campsite to the water and spent numerous times watching the pelikans or the Barracudas chasing prey. We learned a lot from the local people who worked at the campground about the place that surrounds us. We walked the coral reefs and saw stingrays. On the way to the showers we saw coconuts on palm trees and lizard and various birds. We made fire and watched the sunset… We experienced much more than if we were at the hotel because we would have to drive or walk a long way to all of this and most likely we wouldn’t do it.
That is why I would prefer a bamboo koi. In my imagination it is more immediate experience than a big hotel with electricity and tons of rooms with four walls.
Both pictures were taken with my cell phone:
A Key West Hotel
or a primitive campsite view from our tent?
I guess I can’t use img src here. Well here are the links:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/216/462797867_47bcb7f2e7_m.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/232/463897432_53478b7aa6.jpg
Good illustration of your point Rene and very nice shot from the tent. Sounds like you had an incredible childhood. Have you considered trying out for “Survivor?” :))
Michael Kircher,
Thank you for your reply. I agree that often “less is more” and especially for a picture portfolio but for a “photographic essay” photographer this can be limiting.
In such instances I would suggest whetting the appetite of the viewer with a photograhic portfolio and then providing a link to a web site.
I enjoyed your photographs!
Best wishes,
Mike.
Cathy
Just following up your thread, which is a heavy one. I cant really put my finger on it. Photo Safari. Going from a nice comfortable hotel into an impoverished zone or contrary staying closer to that zone. maybe not directly but something similar, or as Rene mentioned couch or floor. Can you connect more closely by your environment. I think it makes for a more real experience.
Cathy and Michael- I’m interested in this topic regarding portraiture subjects. I agree that the web seems saturated with Steve McCurry wannabe’s, but I disagree that it’s a “piece of cake” (no offense, Cathy- you have definite talent): McCurry’s portraits are often copied but rarely if ever duplicated. He captures a subtle yet tangible essence that took me years of staring at his photos before I could begin to perceive the difference between his skill and others.
Also, I think all portraiture subjects are inherently interesting, exotic or not. It’s the talent of the photographer (such as McCurry) that extracts and captures something from the subject that will compel the viewer.
wrobert,
I get your point about being isolated. Maybe David got some feedback from his students about this that he can share with us. Were they relieved to get out of the “real world?” Did the seperation bother them? I’m guessing not.
I do both…stay for weeks or months in a small bunker of a room and bathe from a bucket of water (that I heat with a plug in coil in cases where I want warm water…that is when there’s electricity) as well as in much more luxurious accomodations. I don’t think it makes any difference in terms of the photographs or relating to people because (to sort of quote Arie) I am who I am regardless of where I’m staying. If I’m just there visiting, I am a tourist, not a local no matter how bleak the accomodations. I could try to tell myself that I’m more like the “locals” because I have a crappy room too but I don’t think it makes any difference to them…
I guess there are some who think they will become too “soft” if they let themselves experience comfort AND/OR there’s also the guilt factor “How can I come to their country and live like this when they have to suffer?” That I definitely experience a lot, even when staying in the crappy rooms but unless I take the money for the room and give it to them I still don’t think it’s going to make a difference in their lives whether I feel guilty or not.
If you haven’t heard enough from me today, here’s one more issue…Did the building of the luxury hotel give jobs to the local community, which would be good (for example) or did they tear down a local village to build it-not good. I think the eco tourism movement is a much better option and things are going in a much more “conscious” direction that way. You can actually stay in a place that is doing good and make a difference that way.
Asher and others,
Asher, I’m so glad you mentioned my “piece of cake” comment before too much time elapsed and give me a chance to clairfy what I meant by that. Good example of how hard it is to communicate well thru writing! I am hoping you understood my intent there but it could definitely sound like I’m saying it’s easy (for me) to take a photo as good as McCurry’s. Definitely not the case!!! My portraits are nowhere near as good as his but the point was that it was easy for me to take a portrait of an exotic person in good light and think I was doing something “special” but in truth that “specialness” had a LOT to do with the subject being exotic.
Just my way of telling Michael why I think a lot of people take the “exotic portraits” he was commenting on. I think it’s easier to get a lot of “what a great photographer you are!” comments on those than on portraits of average joes, especially for the beginning photographer.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain!
Asher,
I agree with your “often copied but rarely if ever duplicated” comment.
Hmm..
You gave me alot of food for thought there. Just got to say though firstly, so funny, I am laughing, this old wherehouse that I converted to a simple studio, has no shower, so for that last 6 years I have been taking “bird baths” as I call them, yeh, pretty mental, ( I do love this old space ) but its the same principle as you mentioned. It always reminds me about how we take such simple things for granted, as a shower for example…here I am just dreaming of the luxuary…anyway, you really put some good points on the table. The one that is screaming in my ear is the jobs created from that side of the picture, but then what about mom and pop. cottage industry. People need security though, I realize this, not everyone can have cottages etc.
I was just thinking also what you said about photographers who are not journalists, and kind of exploiting people at base level for the wow factor. thats a heavy thing to consider. In contrast Alec Soth springs to mind, his images from Colombia are extremely beautiful and artistic, but not sensationalist.
Hehe Cathy. ;-) Survivor. I have never seen an episode but I have a vague idea what it’s about.
HELLO ALL….
well well a lot of comments about where to stay or not to stay!!!
in the end, it made no difference one way or the other…the students and jim and i got so caught up in the stories (which were not shot at the hotel!!) that the place where we all stayed and showed work was irrelevant…it was nice to have a spectacular viewing spot for the final shows however…
i certainly never never need a fancy hotel…the only thing i ever think about in that regard is safety and security for my equipment…i only worry about my film or cards being stolen or something…i even set out a “decoy” camera to be stolen if someone breaks into my room….the “real stuff” is hidden under the rug or wherever….
you guys also got off on another thread about exploitation and separation which i will get into on a new post soonest….
new student work and new posts all around coming today….
cheers, david
Cathy,
I’m enjoying your comments. They are certainly on track. Regarding exotic/non exotic, Mary Ellen Mark does both, and I like her “unfamous” better in most cases. Some of those people she shoots are just the plainest looking folks in the world, and the portraits still make you look twice.
I like to stay at someone’s house, if possible; it is easier to get day to day life shots as well as gaining the trust of someone who might end up talking to you.
Just random thoughts…
ciao
Michael
the “real stuff” is hidden under the rug or wherever….
————————
Your first real technical advice on the site, David….Now we know where to start! :-))))
Hello everyone, Been busy with the family here in paris but eager to barge in and join the conversation. About Mc Curry and downtrodden photo-tourism, Basically, IMO, it’s always down to authoring. Photography is a terribly referential craft, and a hard one to make self-referential, not on account of sharing one moment, one emotion (who knows if the guy/gal who takes a lousy shot “a la” afghan girl is less “feeling” for being a snapping tourist?) but on account of using the means of the media, one’s vision and the means to render it.
That is, the referencing if any, is not a duplicating then, but part of the syntax, the phrasing or style if you want of the photographer ( M. Parr comes to mind, trite and triviality meet authoring).
So, I think the idea of genuineness in facing downtrodedness, traveling as a more or less concerned tourist, is quite independant from the debate on photography.
Just too many people are satisfied with snapping a “good” shot away, in reference to someting else. No sin in itself, I do it all the time, but believe the total freedom that photography allows to become an author happens inversely to this type of shooting.
yet, I think a lot of what we shoot, a lot of what is a photo, has its own (self-)criticism built in the print or final image. So, who knows, maybe in way, 12 “a la” shots of the Afghan girl or else may become some kind of authoring in itself?
It’s the questions (hard ones, but gentle hidden ironies too), that can reveal themselves in a photography or a series, that bring the authoring to fruition. And friction.
Last, there is a selflessness often popping out of travel snapshots, but also to so much photography from beginners, amateurs and “unachieved”, that is fascinating, and revealing, but for me, never in a way to downsize the photographer, or box it in as this or that, en groupe ( ie. really concerned, unconcerned, close, distant, “feeling”, superficial, etc…), until the individual reveals his/herself to be so, in person, which again is quite independant from the shots they’ve taken.