Comments on: fast train http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/ burn is an online feature for emerging photographers worldwide. burn is curated by magnum photographer david alan harvey. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:37:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: robert http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20105 robert Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:03:45 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20105 sounds smart sounds smart

]]> By: w robert angell http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20106 w robert angell Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:23:48 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20106 Hi Ryan I am not saying that to remove the prescence of the photographer is the right thing or not, really the beauty in all this is personal expression. On my current project of portraits I was inspired by B and H Becher's Architectural Typologies. The idea is to take the fundamental principals of architectural photography and apply them to portraiture. Elevation and perspective. If you look at the work of the Bechers, you will see the constants that they follow. This is the contention, by the idea of creating an objective view, they infact were subjective by the nature of choosing to follow a certain formula that they believed to be objective. So you could say that all photography is subjective, but if you try to be objective, how would you take a photograph? Hi Ryan
I am not saying that to remove the prescence of the photographer is the right thing or not, really the beauty in all this is personal expression. On my current project of portraits I was inspired by B and H Becher’s Architectural Typologies. The idea is to take the fundamental principals of architectural photography and apply them to portraiture. Elevation and perspective.
If you look at the work of the Bechers, you will see the constants that they follow. This is the contention, by the idea of creating an objective view, they infact were subjective by the nature of choosing to follow a certain formula that they believed to be objective.
So you could say that all photography is subjective, but if you try to be objective, how would you take a photograph?

]]> By: ryan a http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20107 ryan a Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:45:24 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20107 that first paragraph is a quote of w robert angell; the html tags didn't work apparently. that first paragraph is a quote of w robert angell; the html tags didn’t work apparently.

]]> By: ryan a http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20108 ryan a Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:44:15 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20108 w robert wrote: Anyway there is a quote in the book that i really want to run with. Avedon is giving an opinoin on the viewing experience of the final 6' tall museum prints, "its almost as if there was no photographer. I am out of it. I feel the work now belongs to the people themselves. It's between them and you". I understand the idea, but I'm sure if I agree with the idea of trying to erase the presence of the photographer--or if that's even possible. In my opinion, the photographer is ALWAYS present in the photos, always a force and influence. Avendon might like to think that he's absent, that it's just the subjects and the audience, but to me that's a bit of fantasy, since he composed the camera, set up the meeting, interacted with the people photographed, edited the collection, directed how things were printed, etc. Anyway, to me, the presence of the photographer and the overall context is really important to keep in mind... w robert wrote:

Anyway there is a quote in the book that i really want to run with. Avedon is giving an opinoin on the viewing experience of the final 6′ tall museum prints, “its almost as if there was no photographer. I am out of it. I feel the work now belongs to the people themselves. It’s between them and you”.

I understand the idea, but I’m sure if I agree with the idea of trying to erase the presence of the photographer–or if that’s even possible. In my opinion, the photographer is ALWAYS present in the photos, always a force and influence. Avendon might like to think that he’s absent, that it’s just the subjects and the audience, but to me that’s a bit of fantasy, since he composed the camera, set up the meeting, interacted with the people photographed, edited the collection, directed how things were printed, etc.

Anyway, to me, the presence of the photographer and the overall context is really important to keep in mind…

]]> By: w robert angell http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20109 w robert angell Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:59:50 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20109 The book that Eric was reading is Avedon At Work In the American West By Laura Wilson published by Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center, 2003 Thats a great book and I highly recomend it. Fyi, Avedon shot for In the American West, over a four year period, 752 people, using 17000 sheets of 8x10 b/w film, selected 123 final shots and the rest was destroyed by artist. (film alone by todays prices over $55000) I can relate to the idea of our images being representative of self, Its a little untangeble, esp at this time of the afternoon, but I think Eric and Avedon are right on the mark. Its pretty deep to consider that who I am is what I express on film. hmm... that really kind of makes a lot of sense. Shit, the more I think about that the more obvious it sounds, starting to wake up a little now. Anyway there is a quote in the book that i really want to run with. Avedon is giving an opinoin on the viewing experience of the final 6' tall museum prints, "its almost as if there was no photographer. I am out of it. I feel the work now belongs to the people themselves. It's between them and you". The book that Eric was reading is
Avedon At Work In the American West
By Laura Wilson
published by Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center, 2003
Thats a great book and I highly recomend it.
Fyi, Avedon shot for In the American West, over a four year period, 752 people, using 17000 sheets of 8×10 b/w film, selected 123 final shots and the rest was destroyed by artist.
(film alone by todays prices over $55000)
I can relate to the idea of our images being representative of self, Its a little untangeble, esp at this time of the afternoon, but I think Eric and Avedon are right on the mark.
Its pretty deep to consider that who I am is what I express on film. hmm… that really kind of makes a lot of sense. Shit, the more I think about that the more obvious it sounds, starting to wake up a little now.
Anyway there is a quote in the book that i really want to run with. Avedon is giving an opinoin on the viewing experience of the final 6′ tall museum prints, “its almost as if there was no photographer. I am out of it. I feel the work now belongs to the people themselves. It’s between them and you”.

]]> By: herve http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20110 herve Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:03:57 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20110 well said E Kroll, yes absolutely, at the same time, I suppose Eric kroll knows many people buy his books not really interested in what is him in it. But I think this is a very vast subject, how much people go directly into what the photograph says to them, by-passing photographer's conscious or unconscious discourse. It looks like David is busy and we have co-opted his thread. Unruly class! :-) well said E Kroll, yes absolutely, at the same time, I suppose Eric kroll knows many people buy his books not really interested in what is him in it. But I think this is a very vast subject, how much people go directly into what the photograph says to them, by-passing photographer’s conscious or unconscious discourse.

It looks like David is busy and we have co-opted his thread. Unruly class! :-)

]]> By: robert http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20111 robert Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:29:18 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20111 well said ERIC KROLL !! well said ERIC KROLL !!

]]> By: robert http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20112 robert Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:27:08 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20112 well said ERIC KROLL !! well said ERIC KROLL !!

]]> By: w robert angell http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20113 w robert angell Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:46:27 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20113 Bob from Scotland had me read this as I was simulataneoulsly reading about the making of Avedon's IN THE AMERICAN WEST and I kept thinking about what Avedon was saying which is these portraits he did, that critics criticized for being demeaning or whatever, missed the point. It was him in those photos. His despair (anyone that ran into him and he was always running- knows his despair). It is like when people say that my photos on the wall reflect a chauvnist pig and i scream "those r portraits of me"! so training your eye sounds like a good thing but i suspect we do that every minute we have them OPEN. It is the process of being able to translate your SELF into your photos, no matter what subject you take. That is work. It is your self that is on film. because we edit. we choose , we decide that which closest comes to our own fears, and hopes, and our ...despair. Eric Kroll. Bob from Scotland had me read this as I was simulataneoulsly reading about the making of Avedon’s IN THE AMERICAN WEST and I kept thinking about what Avedon was saying which is these portraits he did, that critics criticized for being demeaning or whatever, missed the point. It was him in those photos. His despair (anyone that ran into him and he was always running- knows his despair). It is like when people say that my photos on the wall reflect a chauvnist pig and i scream “those r portraits of me”! so training your eye sounds like a good thing but i suspect we do that every minute we have them OPEN. It is the process of being able to translate your SELF into your photos, no matter what subject you take. That is work. It is your self that is on film. because we edit. we choose , we decide that which closest comes to our own fears, and hopes, and our …despair.
Eric Kroll.

]]> By: Carlos Rubin http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20114 Carlos Rubin Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:12:05 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20114 Hola David, I need some advice from you. I'm very excited about working on a book about Puerto Rico, my wife just told me to do it as you did and I'm really looking forward to start and "keep" working because I already have images. I know that sometimes you give a workshop on this matter but you told me that you don't have any on schedule for a while..Do you know about any book on this matter?....I need to learn a lot about a lot of things regarding this...I feel a little bit lost. un abrazo Carlos Rubin Hola David,
I need some advice from you. I’m very excited about working on a book about Puerto Rico, my wife just told me to do it as you did and I’m really looking forward to start and “keep” working because I already have images.

I know that sometimes you give a workshop on this matter but you told me that you don’t have any on schedule for a while..Do you know about any book on this matter?….I need to learn a lot about a lot of things regarding this…I feel a little bit lost.
un abrazo
Carlos Rubin

]]> By: Ross Nolly http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20115 Ross Nolly Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:52:27 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20115 Hi David; Thanks for the reply. What i was meaning was more in the vein of experimentation. You experiment with a new view/approach and it didn't quite work, but there was enough promise to pursue it further. Sorry my description wasn't as clear as it should have been. On the subject of old work though: If your work has changed dramatically through the years, do you post your old work in your website under a "photo archives" heading? I originally started out shooting strictly natural history/nature images. My work has evolved and I find that my work is now mostly social documentary with the focus mainly being the sustainability of life (esp in the Pacific Islands). The nature archive is still selling but is not my primary work now. Do I include this older work on my new website? The old work is still an important income source but I also don't want a website that looks muddled and with no focus. I'd really appreciate any ideas from anyone at all. Thanks. Hi David;
Thanks for the reply. What i was meaning was more in the vein of experimentation. You experiment with a new view/approach and it didn’t quite work, but there was enough promise to pursue it further. Sorry my description wasn’t as clear as it should have been.

On the subject of old work though: If your work has changed dramatically through the years, do you post your old work in your website under a “photo archives” heading?

I originally started out shooting strictly natural history/nature images. My work has evolved and I find that my work is now mostly social documentary with the focus mainly being the sustainability of life (esp in the Pacific Islands).

The nature archive is still selling but is not my primary work now. Do I include this older work on my new website? The old work is still an important income source but I also don’t want a website that looks muddled and with no focus.

I’d really appreciate any ideas from anyone at all. Thanks.

]]> By: robert http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20116 robert Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:21:28 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20116 when i took foto courses one of my professors emphasized composition and training the eye through an exercise as follows: Start with a piece of matboard approx. 4x5 then cut out a small square or rectangle. Wherever you go you take this little tool with you and hold it up to your eye. This sounds elementary however sometimes it's important to go back to the basics. the point of the exercise is to think of composition only and i have to say this is effective as it's all your thinking about. when i took foto courses one of my professors emphasized composition and training the eye through an exercise as follows: Start with a piece of matboard approx. 4×5 then cut out a small square or rectangle. Wherever you go you take this little tool with you and hold it up to your eye. This sounds elementary however sometimes it’s important to go back to the basics.

the point of the exercise is to think of composition only and i have to say this is effective as it’s all your thinking about.

]]> By: w robert angell http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20117 w robert angell Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:17:10 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20117 hello On eye training, I find that when I get to the positive image, the thing that i am trying to reach and create the best expresion of, I still find the image to have elements that I had overlooked while taking the shot. This can work for or against the photograph. Its a fantastic experience, when we look at our work, and study it, looking and finding these little mysteries. Using a view camera I often have this experience, you cant place the camera to your eye and start shooting, or take a few steps to the side or hop up on a wall, and take multiple shots. If I am out shooting on the street, I have to really look at the shot without a camera and try and figure out what and were I want this shot to express. If it is a strangers portrait, one just has a few moments for this, its a bit hectic. I think my point is though, I generally train my eye when I am at home studying my work. Looking for what I believe is the most expressive image. Then taking that out with me the next time. hello
On eye training, I find that when I get to the positive image, the thing that i am trying to reach and create the best expresion of, I still find the image to have elements that I had overlooked while taking the shot. This can work for or against the photograph. Its a fantastic experience, when we look at our work, and study it, looking and finding these little mysteries.
Using a view camera I often have this experience, you cant place the camera to your eye and start shooting, or take a few steps to the side or hop up on a wall, and take multiple shots. If I am out shooting on the street, I have to really look at the shot without a camera and try and figure out what and were I want this shot to express. If it is a strangers portrait, one just has a few moments for this, its a bit hectic.
I think my point is though, I generally train my eye when I am at home studying my work. Looking for what I believe is the most expressive image. Then taking that out with me the next time.

]]> By: jakob doman http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20118 jakob doman Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:04:59 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20118 couldn't agree more, Michael, Arie and Herve...I often think each photograph is just practise for the next one and one and one... jxs couldn’t agree more, Michael, Arie and Herve…I often think each photograph is just practise for the next one and one and one…

jxs

]]> By: Michael Kircher http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20119 Michael Kircher Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:22:57 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20119 I think there is something to what Arie is saying about "training the eye", though maybe not as specific as what Herve suggests about practicing scales. After spending so much time with the camera to the eye, slowly moving it around, looking for that perfect moment or balanced composition, good light, etc...I tend now to "see" these things just driving down the road. I can easily picture that little rectangle frame in my mind's eye around a distant building or group of people. I'm forever calling out to my wife, "Oh wow, look at that light!" However, since I rarely go more than a day or without the camera I can't easily speak to whether or not I'd lose that "muscle memory" like I do when I leave the guitar sit for too long. (I suspect I would.) At any rate, good and interesting thoughts Arie and Herve. I think there is something to what Arie is saying about “training the eye”, though maybe not as specific as what Herve suggests about practicing scales.

After spending so much time with the camera to the eye, slowly moving it around, looking for that perfect moment or balanced composition, good light, etc…I tend now to “see” these things just driving down the road. I can easily picture that little rectangle frame in my mind’s eye around a distant building or group of people. I’m forever calling out to my wife, “Oh wow, look at that light!”

However, since I rarely go more than a day or without the camera I can’t easily speak to whether or not I’d lose that “muscle memory” like I do when I leave the guitar sit for too long. (I suspect I would.)

At any rate, good and interesting thoughts Arie and Herve.

]]> By: Rafal Pruszynski http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20120 Rafal Pruszynski Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:27:21 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20120 As far as working on assignments, yours is the only one Ive had. But whatever I submit, bear in mind that it is only a small part of what I want to do. You know the subject, TKD, but there are things I want to do with it, that like martin, I need permission. I told you a bit about it but only recently has it taken a shape in my head that Id love to pursue. But what I will submit will be from the place we went to. Do I feel scattered? Not really, Im not on a fast track here though:) And since Ive never really had an assignment, I cant say. And we cant really say yours is an assignment in the regilar sense of the word, though for some of us it is a taste. The good thing for me I guess was that I had already been shooting the subject and I knew what I wanted from it. Now I know more but that will involve getting permission to do. As far as working on assignments, yours is the only one Ive had. But whatever I submit, bear in mind that it is only a small part of what I want to do. You know the subject, TKD, but there are things I want to do with it, that like martin, I need permission. I told you a bit about it but only recently has it taken a shape in my head that Id love to pursue. But what I will submit will be from the place we went to. Do I feel scattered? Not really, Im not on a fast track here though:) And since Ive never really had an assignment, I cant say. And we cant really say yours is an assignment in the regilar sense of the word, though for some of us it is a taste. The good thing for me I guess was that I had already been shooting the subject and I knew what I wanted from it. Now I know more but that will involve getting permission to do.

]]> By: herve http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20121 herve Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:43:17 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20121 Arie brought up an interesting allusion, practicing the eye on the camera as a musician would his instrument. I wonder if this is something you do, to keep "muscle tone" on the eye, so to speak. May I guess: I think not. or is seeing, for a photographer more about being "taken" by the photograph as you mentionned? Isn't the exercicing more about keeping alert, receptive to the movements, colors, "stuff" happening around you, in an ocular manner, but also human, empathic, than practicing with the camera? certainly, reading about Korea, Hip-hop, you rarely mention the craft, but how you are trying to get inside the culture, by way of human relationships. Then again, A pianist rarely mentions rehearsing or warming up...So, David,if there is any "practicing scales" for you, which are they? Arie brought up an interesting allusion, practicing the eye on the camera as a musician would his instrument. I wonder if this is something you do, to keep “muscle tone” on the eye, so to speak. May I guess: I think not.

or is seeing, for a photographer more about being “taken” by the photograph as you mentionned? Isn’t the exercicing more about keeping alert, receptive to the movements, colors, “stuff” happening around you, in an ocular manner, but also human, empathic, than practicing with the camera?

certainly, reading about Korea, Hip-hop, you rarely mention the craft, but how you are trying to get inside the culture, by way of human relationships. Then again, A pianist rarely mentions rehearsing or warming up…So, David,if there is any “practicing scales” for you, which are they?

]]> By: robert http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20122 robert Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:43:25 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20122 david- i to apply the same methodology to picture taking as u mentioned above. Often times I'm in a place for just a very brief time. For example for this assignment i shot only 72 exposures in two seperate afternoon//evenings in tijuana. As david mentions often times the best pictures come easy or natural which is parallel to effortless. Sometimes i think that when i try to hard the work becomes contrived; or diluted. **David please send me the e-mail that you mentioned regarding camera equipment to r.libertypictures.gmail.com david- i to apply the same methodology to picture taking as u mentioned above. Often times I’m in a place for just a very brief time. For example for this assignment i shot only 72 exposures in two seperate afternoon//evenings in tijuana. As david mentions often times the best pictures come easy or natural which is parallel to effortless. Sometimes i think that when i try to hard the work becomes contrived; or diluted.

**David please send me the e-mail that you mentioned regarding camera equipment to r.libertypictures.gmail.com

]]> By: Arie http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20123 Arie Tue, 04 Sep 2007 04:05:50 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20123 david... I hope you are having a good time in france...thanks for your answer to my question above...somewhere you mentionned that you always have a camera with you...i suppose you use it often during the day to train your eyes (as a piano player who practice every day...). I think this is a very important idea for me because the more I can train my eyes to "see", and the more I use my camera, the more it becomes an "extension to my eyes"... david… I hope you are having a good time in france…thanks for your answer to my question above…somewhere you mentionned that you always have a camera with you…i suppose you use it often during the day to train your eyes (as a piano player who practice every day…). I think this is a very important idea for me because the more I can train my eyes to “see”, and the more I use my camera, the more it becomes an “extension to my eyes”…

]]> By: Martin http://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2007/08/fast-train/comment-page-1/#comment-20124 Martin Tue, 04 Sep 2007 01:08:36 +0000 http://s57354.gridserver.com/2007/08/31/fast-train/#comment-20124 David I Cannot say my current assignment I will do especially for you, but only for you I will try do it faster! I’m still waiting for a money. I have three self assignment in my mind. Very difficult, because first I’m almost sure I will have not permission for shooting, second I have idea in my mind, shapes, colors but I not sure how I should do it, third is easy, but I need money for it. So, if I will have money for materials, and I will “almost satisfied” for my work I will show you my works. Ok? Like always I’ll give all my heart in it. But I just must wait for money. Well, you always have good word for me. Martin David

I Cannot say my current assignment I will do especially for you, but only for you I will try do it faster! I’m still waiting for a money. I have three self assignment in my mind. Very difficult, because first I’m almost sure I will have not permission for shooting, second I have idea in my mind, shapes, colors but I not sure how I should do it, third is easy, but I need money for it.
So, if I will have money for materials, and I will “almost satisfied” for my work I will show you my works. Ok?
Like always I’ll give all my heart in it.
But I just must wait for money.

Well, you always have good word for me.

Martin

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